Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

I'm gonna take a wild punt and say 

no he certainly is not 

 

Pfft you just buy into Project Fear. Feardy. 

[Libertarian]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Yes we do it is on page 1. We could use the B of E, but they said naw. They are not so much problems as a massive cost and starting from scratch. But there are assets too and for balance I should have said.

It doesn't matter what the BofE says. Personally though I would prefer to have a Scottish pound and our own central bank 

[Hagar the Horrible]

1 minute ago, Libertarian said:

It doesn't matter what the BofE says. Personally though I would prefer to have a Scottish pound and our own central bank 

That is the preferred option but in 2014 it was just not answered and its a lot of loops, it's a world bank with guarantees to be able to borrow. But the SNP said we would just use the pound, but did not bother to check if that was viable.

[il Duce McTarkin]

6 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

It doesn't matter what the BofE says. Personally though I would prefer to have a Scottish pound and our own central bank 

 

We could just use the rouble.

[BlueRiver]

1 minute ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

We could just use the rouble.

 

Salmond could sort us right out there I hear. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

That is the preferred option but in 2014 it was just not answered and its a lot of loops, it's a world bank with guarantees to be able to borrow. But the SNP said we would just use the pound, but did not bother to check if that was viable.

Even as a yes in 2014 I knew there was a lot of unanswered questions but it was yes all the way for me . It was more an emotional response than a well thought out yes weighing all the pros and cons . It was selfish really 

[Nucky Thompson]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

The SNP will see a bounce back in the polls as a result of bringing Swinney into FM role.

Aye, we've all been waiting for John 'the long streak of piss' Swinney to come to the rescue 

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Aye, we've all been waiting for John 'the long streak of piss' Swinney to come to the rescue 

I Ken . Surely hes at the windup ? Can’t be that deluded ? What’s that saying 

 

“ the very definition of madness is repeating the same thing but expecting different results. “ ? 
 

The SNP is on a ground hog day loop 

[Libertarian]

24 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

We could just use the rouble.

We can use whatever currency we choose 

[Lord Montpelier]

4 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

We can use whatever currency we choose 

Personally quite happy with the Great British Pound. 

[Korky]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

The SNP will see a bounce back in the polls as a result of bringing Swinney into FM role.

Yes, because as Sturgeon’s deputy for all those years he is totally untarnished by all the issues of her time as FM!
  

 

[hughesie27]

28 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Aye, we've all been waiting for John 'the long streak of piss' Swinney to come to the rescue 

I said that the SNP would see a bounce back, not that they would suddenly be asking for another Indy vote. They'll.win more seats at the GE than they would have with Humza still in charge.

21 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I Ken . Surely hes at the windup ? Can’t be that deluded ? What’s that saying 

 

“ the very definition of madness is repeating the same thing but expecting different results. “ ? 
 

The SNP is on a ground hog day loop 

You ready to tell us what the SNP being finished yet or going to continue to lack any conviction behind your words?

[Ked]

2 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Yes we do it is on page 1. We could use the B of E, but they said naw. They are not so much problems as a massive cost and starting from scratch. But there are assets too and for balance I should have said.

The assets of Scotland alone outweigh massively any percentage of debt if that were a condition.

As for infrastructure .

Come on even cold relations with England would see teething troubles at worst.

Both are free trading countries .

We are in no way or by any stretch starting from scratch.

There is no currency we could not continue to use.

We would find ourselves in exactly the same position in terms of tweaking the economy falsely. 

Unable to print money our economy (for borrowing purposes)would be judged on the health of it.

I believe most economies are internally driven .

Exports are important as is all trade.

Clutching at straws regarding the economy is an argument easily won by those who want independence. 

It's rallied against by all sorts of disinformation. 

Imo .

[Ked]

20 minutes ago, Korky said:

Yes, because as Sturgeon’s deputy for all those years he is totally untarnished by all the issues of her time as FM!
  

 

Actually he is .

I'd prefer Forbes or someone like her but tactically yes Swinney might.

He will defined steady .

The argument about living standards and quality of life will imo become the basis for the resurgence in the want for growing up as a nation.

Pragmatic and representative of our nature.

Unfortunately the one thing which will stall that is a policy practised centuries ago.

 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Spellczech said:

???? I said why I don't think we should have independence referenda every few years. You simply choose to read words that are not on the screen for some reason that I cannot comprehend...

 

Basically whenever you reply to me on here I read your post and think "what is he talking about?" and within those posts I read you trying to paraphrase what I've said and again I'm thinking "what is he talking about?". I don't recognise your attempts to re-state things I write...

 

It happens again and again and again...

 

I've come to the conclusion that you have problems interpreting written English. You see a phrase and jump on it and go off on a tangent somewhere that in your head perhaps is leading somewhere, but as a response is utterly, bizarrely incomprehensible...

 

You said it shouldn't happen.  Your reason is because, well, you think it shouldn't happen.  That was you using circular logic - rather than doing what I asked, and actually going to the trouble of explaining the political reasons why it shouldn't happen.  Now you're just deflecting.  Don't get me wrong, you're as entitled to your opinion as the next person, and you're entitled to have any reason you like - or no reason at all - for it.  You may even think you've explained your position, but you haven't.

 

By the way, maybe you should have referenda every few years, or maybe you shouldn't.  I'm actually not arguing either way.  What I am arguing is that because nearly as many of you think you should as think you shouldn't, you need a political mechanism of some description to work out what is appropriate.  That may be incomprehensible to you, but the politically and constitutionally savvy won't need any help understanding it.

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

No one on here thinks Scotland couldn’t navigate these issues.

 

What those of us who live and work here would like to understand is what will be the impact of navigating these on all of us.

 

For example how does the immigration policy impact our border arrangements with England and the subsequent impact on travel and trade. 

 

Or

 

Are we planning to join the EU, if so under what arrangements and how do we intend to meet the already fully understood EU entry criteria, will it be though tax increase or public spending cuts . 

Or 

 

What currency will a newly independent Scotland use, what would this mean for our mortgages and pensions? 
 

Or

 

Are we joining NATO and if not/so what does that mean for defence spending and existing defence commitments?

 

I could go on and on.  Of course Scotland can navigate this but at what cost to people.  Until nationalists can answer at least the majority of those questions a majority will never ever vote for it.  
 

And frankly until they can, and they have had more than decade to do so, they are wasting our time and stringing their voters along simply to stay in power.

 

A rationale, intelligent, mature nation will NEVER vote for this level of uncertainty.  

Good to see you back posting BJ... although, as ever, I disagree with much of what you say...post more!

[Ulysses]

54 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

We can use whatever currency we choose 

 

48 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Personally quite happy with the Great British Pound. 

 

That could be an expensive one for a Scottish government and central bank to try to manage.   

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Salmond could sort us right out for a wee loan there I hear. 

 

Fixed that for you.

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

The SNP will see a bounce back in the polls as a result of bringing Swinney into FM role.

 

If the SNP picks up in the polls, will it be because of Swinney's appointment, or merely because of the departure of Humza Yousaf?

 

That's just a different way of asking if Swinney is the right choice, not that it matters now.

[hughesie27]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

If the SNP picks up in the polls, will it be because of Swinney's appointment, or merely because of the departure of Humza Yousaf?

 

That's just a different way of asking if Swinney is the right choice, not that it matters now.

Almost certainly the latter 🤣. 

He does speak well though. 

[Brighton Jambo]

12 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Good to see you back posting BJ... although, as ever, I disagree with much of what you say...post more!

Haha thanks.  Tend to avoid the political threads now to be honest as I end up too far down the rabbit hole.  Had a nosey today and just couldn’t help myself! 

[Libertarian]

Anyone with a pair of eyes can see how the UK is in a steep decline, just look at the deterioring fabric of our town centres. The increasing poverty is there for all to see. The Tories are going to lose the next British election but Labour appears to be offering nothing different. Independence will sweep away a decrepit political system which has failed not only Scotland but every citizen in the UK. The UK establishment are terrified of Scottish independence as independence will sweep away a corrupt and incompetent establishment which is destroying the life chances of millions of our fellow citizens 

[Lord Montpelier]

18 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

That could be an expensive one for a Scottish government and central bank to try to manage.   

Won't be a problem. Libertarian says we can have whatever currency we choose. 

[manaliveits105]

2 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

The SNP will see a bounce back in the polls as a result of bringing Swinney into FM role.

[hughesie27]

6 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49101-labour-ahead-of-snp-in-scotland-for-first-time-since-independence-referendum

 

Not sure if there are any polls from the week off the Bute House agreement collapse but this was a couple of weeks before.

 

31%

 

Will see where we are at the next polls.

[Libertarian]

5 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Won't be a problem. Libertarian says we can have whatever currency we choose. 

Have a look at the following. I have simply stated a fact. Are you suggesting it can't be done? Personally though I can't see why  a resource rich highly educated country such as Scotland shouldn't have it's own currency and central bank.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currency-substitution.asp#:~:text=A nation may choose to,such as for international trade.

[Ked]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Won't be a problem. Libertarian says we can have whatever currency we choose. 

Are you saying we could not?

 

[Dirty Deeds]

I wonder if Labour or the Tories will let Anas Sarwar and Douglas Ross near any debate come the General Election?

 

They won't fare well versus Swinney and could boost the SNP vote.

[Libertarian]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I Ken . Surely hes at the windup ? Can’t be that deluded ? What’s that saying 

 

“ the very definition of madness is repeating the same thing but expecting different results. “ ? 
 

The SNP is on a ground hog day loop 

Absolutely correct. It's also important to understand that the SNP will never deliver Independence as they have morphed into the establishment and are now a barrier to independence 

[redjambo]

10 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

Have a look at the following. I have simply stated a fact. Are you suggesting it can't be done? Personally though I can't see why  a resource rich highly educated country such as Scotland shouldn't have it's own currency and central bank.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currency-substitution.asp#:~:text=A nation may choose to,such as for international trade.

 

Indeed, although regarding currency I personally would prefer to be a member of the Eurozone.

[Dawnrazor]

16 minutes ago, Ked said:

Are you saying we could not?

 

Can you just pick a currency then start printing notes and minting coins without the permission of the owner of that currency, say the pound sterling, dollar, euro or yen?

[hughesie27]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Can you just pick a currency then start printing notes and minting coins without the permission of the owner of that currency, say the pound sterling, dollar, euro or yen?

Minting/Printing no.

Using yes.

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Can you just pick a currency then start printing notes and minting coins without the permission of the owner of that currency, say the pound sterling, dollar, euro or yen?

No.

We can't do that now either.

But we can use the euro,pound without any transition.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Minting/Printing no.

Using yes.

How do you use money without printing ans minting? Purely digital? What's the difference?

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Ked said:

No.

We can't do that now either.

But we can use the euro,pound without any transition.

How?

[redjambo]

Just now, Jim_Duncan said:

The only cash I currently have in my house is a stack of Euros. So I'm in.

 

But seriously, why?

 

Because I knew you had loads of Euros of course.

 

It's a huge, strong, relatively stable currency. No transaction commission loss and rate fluctuation considerations on any exports/imports from other countries using Euros, i.e. most of our near neighbours, and of course when travelling to and from said countries.

 

Despite its flaws, I'm a big believer in the merits of the EU so that naturally also contributes towards my motivation.

 

On the other hand, Denmark, Sweden and a handful of other countries in the EU appear to be doing quite well with their own currencies, tied through ERM II, so it's not a hill I would die on. In saying that, if Scotland joined the EU now, I doubt we would be given an opt-out from adopting the euro once the convergence criteria were met.

[hughesie27]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

How do you use money without printing ans minting? Purely digital? What's the difference?

Have you ever went on holiday before and had to use another currency? It's similar to that. But on a national level.

 

If I was the SNP I'd reccomend using M&S.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, hughesie27 said:

Have you ever went on holiday before and had to use another currency? It's similar to that. But on a national level.

 

If I was the SNP I'd reccomend using M&S.

I've never left the UK since I was 13, so no.

But didn't really explain my question.

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

How do you use money without printing ans minting? Purely digital? What's the difference?

 

Montenegro and Kosovo (and 4 microstates) use the Euro, despite not being in the Eurozone. Various countries and territories outwith the United States officially use the U.S. dollar.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Montenegro and Kosovo (and 4 microstates) use the Euro, despite not being in the Eurozone. Various countries and territories outwith the United States officially use the U.S. dollar.

So they can print and use the dollar without the permission of the US? The print, mint and use the dollar as cash?

 

[redjambo]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

So they can print and use the dollar without the permission of the US? The print, mint and use the dollar as cash?

 

 

No, they can't print or mint it. They just use it.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

No, they can't print or mint it. They just use it.

So where do they get it from? I presume they're not a cashless society?

[hughesie27]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So they can print and use the dollar without the permission of the US? The print, mint and use the dollar as cash?

 

Still no on the minting/printing.

Still yes on the using.

 

Any nation can use any currency it wants.

[hughesie27]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So where do they get it from? I presume they're not a cashless society?

They buy it. Or get loaned it. Likely both as part of a currency union with the Central Bank of that nation.

 

Edited May 6 by hughesie27

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

They buy it. Or get loaned it. Likely both.

 

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

They buy it. Or get loaned it. Likely both.

So to get it loaned there must be some kind of agreement?

[hughesie27]

4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

 

So to get it loaned there must be some kind of agreement?

Loans generally have terms both parties need to agree to aye.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

Loans generally have terms both parties need to agree to aye.

So what do they use to buy the dollar if they have no currency of their own?

What would Scotland use to buy the dollar, pound or euro with if we had no currency of our own?

[hughesie27]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

So what do they use to buy the dollar if they have no currency of their own?

What would Scotland use to buy the dollar, pound or euro with if we had no currency of our own?

We have the £ right now so wouldn't be buying that and that is what we would use to buy whatever else we moved to. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So what do they use to buy the dollar if they have no currency of their own?

What would Scotland use to buy the dollar, pound or euro with if we had no currency of our own?

Good question 

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

[I've also got about 500 Azerbaijani Manat and so much Turkish lira my kids use it as a kind of in-house trading currency when trying to swap football cards ]

 

But wouldn't England/rUK continue to be our biggest export market? It's not as if Westminster isn't prone to shooting itself in the foot financially for short-term political gratification and/or spite. Us working in a different currency would give them just another excuse to cause issues in the event of independence. In the grand scheme of things, if we were to go it alone, we'd need them more than they'd need us. It would make sense to play nice for our own gain (and theirs, ultimately, I guess). Unless we build bridges to both Ireland and Denmark?

 

Wee entrepreneurs in the making.

 

Fair points. However, would rUK also play nice if we chose to retain the Pound Sterling? I'm not sure they would do so, and previous comments from south have not painted a rosy cooperative picture (although these may have been issued in order to influence the independence debate).

 

Anyway, this chap appears to agree with you, albeit from a 10-year old article. https://iea.org.uk/blog/should-an-independent-scotland-keep-the-pound

 

When it comes down to it though, I'm not a financial or fiscal expert. I just feel that if an independent Scotland were to rejoin the EU, which I would like it to do, we should go balls-in.