The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.

[Unknown user]

If he didn't sign the letters, then Craig will walk from this

Unsigned documents,

Murray pressured by the back to accept it or get his money cut off

lack of any kind if diligence

 

I'd be amazed if he gets found guilty

I'd be very surprised if it was as clear cut as that

[Mikey1874]

This is turning into a bear pit - all these ex-directors of Rangers turning on each other? Findlay was a director for 13 years under Murray wasn't he? Unsigned letters and contracts? I cannot believe SDM truly believed Whyte had the readies, he just needed someone, anyone to take Rangers off him...I'd be interested to hear more about the relationship between Murray and the Bank of Scotland. The bank was into Murray for about 750m at the time of the banking crisis which Murray had borrowed for bum investment property deals. Now a decent amount of money was also directed into Rangers via interco loans from Murray International. So given that Rangers was a black hole it is pretty obvious why the bank wanted SDM to divest himself of Rangers - at least the property investments had a chance of coming good again if the bank continued to support Murray International.

Yeah

 

Just thinking of all the others who could be witnesses

 

Unless they have all agreed a line it could be messy

 

Back Tuesday now

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Yeah

 

Just thinking of all the others who could be witnesses

 

Unless they have all agreed a line it could be messy

 

Back Tuesday now

 

We've seen the start of it already, Findlay on Murray, King on Murray and Murray on just about everybody else, wait until they get the chance in the witness box, hopefully they'll expose SDM as the liar that he is.

[Footballfirst]

Proceedings over until Tuesday.

 

Findlay spent the day highlighting documents from the Board and other advisors that they have serious concerns about the club before the takeover, all of which Murray sought to deny or deflect as merely opinions.

 

The stage is now set up for the subsequent witnesses to back up their assertions and show that Murray was wrong.

 

Findlay's end game looks like it will be that the club's finances and prospects were bleak, but also that the Board was dysfunctional. Whyte was therefore the one who was duped.

[buzzbomb1958]

I hope craigyboy gets off scot free imagine the mega seethe if one of their own finally puts them to the sword,how good would that be .

[Footballfirst]

There was a moment of great irony when there was a discussion about King's letter criticising the JJB retail deal, among other things. Murray denied that he had "Sold the jerseys"

[DETTY29]

So what would happen if the sale shouldn't have technically gone ahead? absolute mind melting stuff

If still knocked out by Malmo and Maribor then fire sale of all sellable players and potential pre pack so as not to get done by BTC.

 

Cash was already tight to even put payment of WTC in doubt.

 

No leeway from Llyods due to state of MG, Rangers and potential BTC liability..

 

So cream ducked.

 

At a guess.

Edited April 28, 2017 by DETTY29

[Spellczech]

Proceedings over until Tuesday.

 

Findlay spent the day highlighting documents from the Board and other advisors that they have serious concerns about the club before the takeover, all of which Murray sought to deny or deflect as merely opinions.

 

The stage is now set up for the subsequent witnesses to back up their assertions and show that Murray was wrong.

 

Findlay's end game looks like it will be that the club's finances and prospects were bleak, but also that the Board was dysfunctional. Whyte was therefore the one who was duped.

Don't think that one will wash if that's all he's got - Whyte bought Rangers FC for ?1.00, less than a steak pie - what did he think he was getting? 

[Justin Z]

Don't think that one will wash if that's all he's got - Whyte bought Rangers FC for ?1.00, less than a steak pie - what did he think he was getting? 

 

A lot of liabilities.  Were they accurately reported to him?

[Spellczech]

There was a moment of great irony when there was a discussion about King's letter criticising the JJB retail deal, among other things. Murray denied that he had "Sold the jerseys"

It does genuinely, and I remember writing this even at the time, make you wonder what Whyte's end game actually was? How does a football club make money if it cannot sell merchandise and the ST for next 3 years have also been mortgaged? What the hell was he thinking? Did he think he could schmooze other investors in same way that Murray got investment from King originally? He allowed the Daily Record to write that he was a flipping billionaire! Is he some sort of deranged Walter Mitty type? He also bought Castle Fraser and then couldn't afford to do it up...It is just bizarre.

[DETTY29]

Don't think that one will wash if that's all he's got - Whyte bought Rangers FC for ?1.00, less than a steak pie - what did he think he was getting?

Murray said the price to buy was ?4m but reduced to ?1 allow for more player budget post sale.

 

Surprised Findlay didn't ask what Lloyds thought of that as I'd doubt the cash would be going to RFCs bank account but instead to the shareholders / funders.

 

Might come out later on. Could be wrong.

 

But yep if you buy a company with assets of ?70+m with debt of ?18m for ?1, one would make the broad assumption you are buying a potentially distressed trading business.

Edited April 28, 2017 by DETTY29

[Spellczech]

A lot of liabilities.  Were they accurately reported to him?

Well they couldn't be, because nobody knew the extent of the potential liabilities for the Big and Small Tax Cases. Generally in business it is an risky to buy a whole company, precisely because you are buying the liabilities, including future ones, in addition to the assets. This becomes tricky with a a football club as it is difficult to separate the assets from the liabilities...

[Justin Z]

Well they couldn't be, because nobody knew the extent of the potential liabilities for the Big and Small Tax Cases. Generally in business it is an risky to buy a whole company, precisely because you are buying the liabilities, including future ones, in addition to the assets. This becomes tricky with a a football club as it is difficult to separate the assets from the liabilities...

 

Agreed. Of course, all Findlay needs to do successfully is introduce enough of an element of doubt into these proceedings that the jury aren't comfortable convicting. He doesn't have to prove anything at all.

[Spellczech]

Murray said the price to buy was ?4m but reduced to ?1 allow for more player budget post sale.

 

Surprised Findlay didn't ask what Lloyds thought of that as I'd doubt the cash would be going to RFCs bank account but instead to the shareholders / funders.

 

Might come out later on. Could be wrong.

 

But yep if you buy a company with assets of ?70+m with debt of ?18m for ?1, one would make the broad assumption you are buying a potentially distressed business.

What Murray said is laughable....Reads like "You pay me ?4m for the company, but let me buy a last couple of players for ?3.999999M then I'll gift them to you!"

[weegie jambo]

does anyone ITK think that anyone from SDM's property dept will be called to give evidence?

[Don Dan]

Anybody know when the Sultan of Brunei is due to appear.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Dannie Boy

[269miles]

Well they couldn't be, because nobody knew the extent of the potential liabilities for the Big and Small Tax Cases. Generally in business it is an risky to buy a whole company, precisely because you are buying the liabilities, including future ones, in addition to the assets. This becomes tricky with a a football club as it is difficult to separate the assets from the liabilities...

The extent of the wee tax case was publicly known. Whyte knew about it and agreed to pay it. As for the big tax case ...."cheat me once , shame on you", and all that. SDM offered HMRC ?10 million to settle. Whyte knew exactly what he was walking into. 

[The Gasman]

If the agreement wasn't properly signed, is it legally enforceable?

Unlike in English law, in Scottish law, a verbal agreement can be legally binding - though whether or not that's the case here, I've no idea.

[Riccarton3]

It does genuinely, and I remember writing this even at the time, make you wonder what Whyte's end game actually was? How does a football club make money if it cannot sell merchandise and the ST for next 3 years have also been mortgaged? What the hell was he thinking? Did he think he could schmooze other investors in same way that Murray got investment from King originally? He allowed the Daily Record to write that he was a flipping billionaire! Is he some sort of deranged Walter Mitty type? He also bought Castle Fraser and then couldn't afford to do it up...It is just bizarre.

Surely, he was effectively chosen by Murray to do a job which involved stuffing the tax man for however many millions it was and ensuring the assets were protected through the admin process.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Riccarton3

[Glamorgan Jambo]

One thing that jumped out at me from this afternoons evidence was that someone (presumably the ex chairman Alistair Johnson) extended the notice period on the then Chief Executive (Martin Bain)'s contract out to 39 months shortly before the deal with Whyte was done. I can't wait for this guy to be cross examined on why exactly there was the need for this as up until now he's had a pretty free ride from the media etc. This is as dodgy a deal as McCoist being in line for compensation if he didn't succeed Smith.

 

I have to say Findlay's doing his job extremely well and kudos to James Doleman for the updates on twitter...

[Diadora Van Basten]

Murray said the price to buy was ?4m but reduced to ?1 allow for more player budget post sale.

 

Surprised Findlay didn't ask what Lloyds thought of that as I'd doubt the cash would be going to RFCs bank account but instead to the shareholders / funders.

 

Might come out later on. Could be wrong.

 

But yep if you buy a company with assets of ?70+m with debt of ?18m for ?1, one would make the broad assumption you are buying a potentially distressed trading business.

The deal was ?4m but then once Whyte had a look at the books it became ?1.

[Diadora Van Basten]

Murray said the price to buy was ?4m but reduced to ?1 allow for more player budget post sale.

 

Surprised Findlay didn't ask what Lloyds thought of that as I'd doubt the cash would be going to RFCs bank account but instead to the shareholders / funders.

 

Might come out later on. Could be wrong.

 

But yep if you buy a company with assets of ?70+m with debt of ?18m for ?1, one would make the broad assumption you are buying a potentially distressed trading business.

The deal was ?4m but then once Whyte had a look at the books it became ?1.

[Spellczech]

The deal was ?4m but then once Whyte had a look at the books it became ?1.

So basically he knew he was buying a basket case of a business and still went ahead. Kind of reminds me of when I was living in Germany and I read an article in the Economist where their columnist could not believe that Fred Goodwin/RBS was pushing ahead with the ABN Amro deal. You can see someone doing something very stupid yet still he continues...

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

Not related to the tax case or anything like that, but I just read this on the Bear's Den and thought you might enjoy it.

 

 

"I have scarce been more angry than I am tonight. The news on legomuncher has put the tin lid on years of corruption and a growing blatant hatred in Scottish society of Rangers . That this bheast has been freed up to play in two matches against us despite his obvious thuggery defies belief. I hate him more than Lennon and Peter grant. I feel that our dignity goes against us at times. We should be putting more pressure on the Sfa. It is no more than a cabal run by Liewells unseen f****n hand. The decisions and attitude to the most successful club in world football since 2008 have saddened and shocked. From the refusal to extend the season to allow us to honour this country by winning a uefa cup, to the desperate measures to kill the club off, relegating us to allow the taigs no competition for champions league money. Only the staunchness of our support and the passion inherited among all true rangers from the gallant pioneers onwards saw us rise back to the top. Enough is enough. We must demand a level playing field. I wish mr King would clearly state that no ranger, from Colt to the hallowed first team, will represent the sfa national teams at any level until Liewell and his ilk are removed. On Saturday we should brandish red cards every time Brown has the ball to demonstrate to the world that we know the governance of the game in this once great country favours only one club- that considers itself Irish! That said, I'm convinced that right and justice will prevail and that we will defeat Timmy. We are indeed the sons of struth and his teachings and wisdom should be used to instil the battle fever in the dressing room. We will prove aye ready. However, This bear has had enough! How can we strike back at those who hate us?"

[Big Slim Stylee]

Not related to the tax case or anything like that, but I just read this on the Bear's Den and thought you might enjoy it.

 

 

"I have scarce been more angry than I am tonight. The news on legomuncher has put the tin lid on years of corruption and a growing blatant hatred in Scottish society of Rangers . That this bheast has been freed up to play in two matches against us despite his obvious thuggery defies belief. I hate him more than Lennon and Peter grant. I feel that our dignity goes against us at times. We should be putting more pressure on the Sfa. It is no more than a cabal run by Liewells unseen *****n hand. The decisions and attitude to the most successful club in world football since 2008 have saddened and shocked. From the refusal to extend the season to allow us to honour this country by winning a uefa cup, to the desperate measures to kill the club off, relegating us to allow the taigs no competition for champions league money. Only the staunchness of our support and the passion inherited among all true rangers from the gallant pioneers onwards saw us rise back to the top. Enough is enough. We must demand a level playing field. I wish mr King would clearly state that no ranger, from Colt to the hallowed first team, will represent the sfa national teams at any level until Liewell and his ilk are removed. On Saturday we should brandish red cards every time Brown has the ball to demonstrate to the world that we know the governance of the game in this once great country favours only one club- that considers itself Irish! That said, I'm convinced that right and justice will prevail and that we will defeat Timmy. We are indeed the sons of struth and his teachings and wisdom should be used to instil the battle fever in the dressing room. We will prove aye ready. However, This bear has had enough! How can we strike back at those who hate us?"

 

I notice there's much seethe at his call to arms as well  Odious people infect that place.  But always good for a laugh.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Not related to the tax case or anything like that, but I just read this on the Bear's Den and thought you might enjoy it.

 

 

"I have scarce been more angry than I am tonight. The news on legomuncher has put the tin lid on years of corruption and a growing blatant hatred in Scottish society of Rangers . That this bheast has been freed up to play in two matches against us despite his obvious thuggery defies belief. I hate him more than Lennon and Peter grant. I feel that our dignity goes against us at times. We should be putting more pressure on the Sfa. It is no more than a cabal run by Liewells unseen *****n hand. The decisions and attitude to the most successful club in world football since 2008 have saddened and shocked. From the refusal to extend the season to allow us to honour this country by winning a uefa cup, to the desperate measures to kill the club off, relegating us to allow the taigs no competition for champions league money. Only the staunchness of our support and the passion inherited among all true rangers from the gallant pioneers onwards saw us rise back to the top. Enough is enough. We must demand a level playing field. I wish mr King would clearly state that no ranger, from Colt to the hallowed first team, will represent the sfa national teams at any level until Liewell and his ilk are removed. On Saturday we should brandish red cards every time Brown has the ball to demonstrate to the world that we know the governance of the game in this once great country favours only one club- that considers itself Irish! That said, I'm convinced that right and justice will prevail and that we will defeat Timmy. We are indeed the sons of struth and his teachings and wisdom should be used to instil the battle fever in the dressing room. We will prove aye ready. However, This bear has had enough! How can we strike back at those who hate us?"

Wow, wow and wow. And an extra wow thrown in for $#!ts and giggles. Bitter much. Lots of untruths in that piece too. They're a scary bunch when poked.

[Unknown user]

Not related to the tax case or anything like that, but I just read this on the Bear's Den and thought you might enjoy it.

 

 

"I have scarce been more angry than I am tonight. The news on legomuncher has put the tin lid on years of corruption and a growing blatant hatred in Scottish society of Rangers . That this bheast has been freed up to play in two matches against us despite his obvious thuggery defies belief. I hate him more than Lennon and Peter grant. I feel that our dignity goes against us at times. We should be putting more pressure on the Sfa. It is no more than a cabal run by Liewells unseen *****n hand. The decisions and attitude to the most successful club in world football since 2008 have saddened and shocked. From the refusal to extend the season to allow us to honour this country by winning a uefa cup, to the desperate measures to kill the club off, relegating us to allow the taigs no competition for champions league money. Only the staunchness of our support and the passion inherited among all true rangers from the gallant pioneers onwards saw us rise back to the top. Enough is enough. We must demand a level playing field. I wish mr King would clearly state that no ranger, from Colt to the hallowed first team, will represent the sfa national teams at any level until Liewell and his ilk are removed. On Saturday we should brandish red cards every time Brown has the ball to demonstrate to the world that we know the governance of the game in this once great country favours only one club- that considers itself Irish! That said, I'm convinced that right and justice will prevail and that we will defeat Timmy. We are indeed the sons of struth and his teachings and wisdom should be used to instil the battle fever in the dressing room. We will prove aye ready. However, This bear has had enough! How can we strike back at those who hate us?"

You forgot the best bit of that whole thread, the title

 

"No more dignified silence"

 

:laugh: :laugh:

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

You forgot the best bit of that whole thread, the title

 

"No more dignified silence"

 

:laugh: :laugh:

"I feel that our dignity goes against us at times."

 

:rofl:

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Not related to the tax case or anything like that, but I just read this on the Bear's Den and thought you might enjoy it.

 

 

"I have scarce been more angry than I am tonight. The news on legomuncher has put the tin lid on years of corruption and a growing blatant hatred in Scottish society of Rangers . That this bheast has been freed up to play in two matches against us despite his obvious thuggery defies belief. I hate him more than Lennon and Peter grant. I feel that our dignity goes against us at times. We should be putting more pressure on the Sfa. It is no more than a cabal run by Liewells unseen *****n hand. The decisions and attitude to the most successful club in world football since 2008 have saddened and shocked. From the refusal to extend the season to allow us to honour this country by winning a uefa cup, to the desperate measures to kill the club off, relegating us to allow the taigs no competition for champions league money. Only the staunchness of our support and the passion inherited among all true rangers from the gallant pioneers onwards saw us rise back to the top. Enough is enough. We must demand a level playing field. I wish mr King would clearly state that no ranger, from Colt to the hallowed first team, will represent the sfa national teams at any level until Liewell and his ilk are removed. On Saturday we should brandish red cards every time Brown has the ball to demonstrate to the world that we know the governance of the game in this once great country favours only one club- that considers itself Irish! That said, I'm convinced that right and justice will prevail and that we will defeat Timmy. We are indeed the sons of struth and his teachings and wisdom should be used to instil the battle fever in the dressing room. We will prove aye ready. However, This bear has had enough! How can we strike back at those who hate us?"

 

Even Freud would have had trouble helping this deeply disturbed individual.

 

You can almost hear the sniffles as they batter every key on their keyboard whilst they type, one almost feels sorry for the poor soul.

 

I said almost. 

[Don Dan]

"That this bheast has been freed up to play in two matches against us despite his obvious thuggery defies belief."

 

The only statement that anyone would agree with.

[cannonfoda]

.

[Footballfirst]

The Daily Record seems to have taken a pro Whyte position following today's court proceedings.

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Footballfirst

[Spellczech]

The Daily Record seems to have taken a pro Whyte position following today's court proceedings.

 

I wonder if the note is hidden in the same place as Whyte's "billions"? Let's face it they are a bunch of liars and chancers - Murray, Whyte, Green, King...

[DETTY29]

So we get a bronze with audited accounts & sevco get a sliver license with unaudited accounts, is this because we suffered an admin event whilst Newco rangers have never been in admin ? [emoji848]

Can't be.

 

A club cannot meet the Gold, Silver or Bronze criterion if it has undergone an insolvency event within a three year period. In the case of decisions in 2017 this covers the period from 1 June 2014.

[buzzbomb1958]

I wonder if the note is hidden in the same place as Whyte's "billions"? Let's face it they are a bunch of liars and chancers - Murray, Whyte, Green, King...

It's hidden under ra deeds ,this circus is looking wonderful and it's early doors,imagine all the lies and skulduggery still to be uncovered.Im away to buy shares in popcorn.

[Footballfirst]

Just reading this.

 

 

You mean this sort of statement from the auditors in Rangers 2016 accounts:

 

EMPHASIS OF MATTER ? GOING CONCERN

In forming our opinion on the financial statements, which is not modified, we have considered the adequacy of the disclosures in note 1 to the financial statements concerning the Group?s ability to continue as a going concern. In order to continue operations for the next 12 months the Group is dependent upon raising additional finance. Failure to secure additional funding would result in the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt as to the Group?s ability to continue as a going concern. The financial statements do not include the adjustments that would result if the Group was unable to continue as a going concern.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Footballfirst

[The Gasman]

So we get a bronze with audited accounts & sevco get a sliver license with unaudited accounts, is this because we suffered an admin event whilst Newco rangers have never been in admin ? [emoji848]

The criteria for Silver includes having audited accounts - something Sevco do not have....

 

....or am I missing something?

[jambovambo]

What is Findlay's defence for Whyte ? That's what I don't get.

 

That Murray etc knew fine what was going on behind the scenes with the "purchase"?

[Footballfirst]

The criteria for Silver includes having audited accounts - something Sevco do not have....

 

....or am I missing something?

The accounts required are those from 2016, which were audited, albeit with an Emphasis of Matter- Going Concern statement.

[Tasavallan]

What is Findlay's defence for Whyte ? That's what I don't get.

That Murray etc knew fine what was going on behind the scenes with the "purchase"?

That Whyte was a patsy.

[Mikey1874]

What is Findlay's defence for Whyte ? That's what I don't get.

 

That Murray etc knew fine what was going on behind the scenes with the "purchase"?

Yeah

 

That Whyte acted in good faith

 

That what he did in buying club was consistent with what had gone before

 

Or something like that

Edited April 29, 2017 by Mikey1874

[Riccarton3]

That Whyte was a patsy.

Easily swindled and deceived. Craig Whyte? Hmmm.

[cannonfoda]

they deid yet?

[LeftBack]

The Daily Record seems to have taken a pro Whyte position following today's court proceedings.

 

Pro-Whyte and/or anti-Murray? Level 5 going all in on King's behalf to make sure Bears have another outlet for ire and taking the focus off what is currently happening. Preparing the ground for King to 'say Ive done all I can but I simply cant repair the damage others have done in the past'.

[Big Slim Stylee]

I wonder if the note is hidden in the same place as Whyte's "billions"? Let's face it they are a bunch of liars and chancers - Murray, Whyte, Green, King...

 

Presumably it was an "off the radar" note.......

[Bazzas right boot]

The bears den is a hoot just now.

 

Thier answer, goes more Money. Someone. Anyone, now.

[Unknown user]

The bears den is a hoot just now.

 

Thier answer, goes more Money. Someone. Anyone, now.

It really is a joy, the full scale of how far behind they are is starting to sink in. The many millions required just to draw level, all while their infrastructure crumbles in front of their eyes and celtic gobble up champions league money for the foreseeable.

 

They've got court cases everywhere, the current owner's a glib and shameless liar with no real wealth, while two previous owners do battle in open court to see which is the dodgiest.

 

GIRFUY the rangers, old and new!

[Jambo-Jimbo]

It really is a joy, the full scale of how far behind they are is starting to sink in. The many millions required just to draw level, all while their infrastructure crumbles in front of their eyes and celtic gobble up champions league money for the foreseeable.

 

They've got court cases everywhere, the current owner's a glib and shameless liar with no real wealth, while two previous owners do battle in open court to see which is the dodgiest.

 

GIRFUY the rangers, old and new!

 

Remember they've spent ?18m on that team already and they could spend double that amount and still not get anywhere near that Celtic team.

[Bazzas right boot]

Remember they've spent ?18m on that team already and they could spend double that amount and still not get anywhere near that Celtic team.

Celtic?Thier miles behind Aberdeen, just ahead of st Johnstone and only above us cos we've collapsed this year.

 

No reflection on the fact they could have hit the restart button and came up after 4 years in great knick.

 

Absolute shambles, makes? me put our shit into perspective. Debt, no valuable players, demanding fans, no clue, shite infrastructure and a crook in charge.

 

New coach and/or some players we'll be fine, more than fine imo.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Rudi'sleftfoot

[Mikey1874]

I know it's a side issue though perhaps still important. Whyte's defence lawyer Donald Findlay was previously Rangers director. He stood down after a video of him singing the 'party songs'. I always felt it was harsh. And just listening to Steven Pressley saying as a teenager at Ibrox he was expected to go to supporters events and you were expected to sing all the songs.

 

Anyway back on tomorrow.