Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 12s12 seconds ago Basic matter is "what happened to Rangers" Poole says Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 1m1 minute ago McKenzie: "The Club, with a capital C, had been sold to Sevco Scotland ltd." Adds "We learned this from the press mainly " How could the club be sold - it's still in liquidation. Green said on oath , he started a new company and bought the assets of the old one. McKenzie is lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Why/how could a complaint be served on Sevco - it's a brand new club ? Anyone ? I wasn't clear what kind of complaint was being referred to here, and who was serving it. But, one possible reason would be to cover your bases--if you were concerned that in the end the new company might be granted the right to carry on as if it were the old company, you very well might have recourse with the new company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 13m13 minutes ago Weirdly enough today is #nationalpopcornday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 32s33 seconds ago Poole "The ultimate question is what a reasonable person would think the word relegation means.' Cites principle of simple language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reaths17 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) Cheers, so it is all about separating the club in a sporting context from the legal business entity? If they are the same, case should be open and close based on what you said. If the club is viewed as a different entity from the business then there is chance that within a sporting context Rangers, the club were relegated as they dropped down division's, however from a business point of view they were sanctioned and had to re apply so were not relegated, Is it all down to how the judge views rangers, the club? Interesting if nothing else.. THEY WERE NEVER RELEGATED, separate what ? they folded, unable to trade, gone , liquidated, they were that liquidated they had sold the family(club) jewels to the 1st bidder, this new owner started a new business using jewels/assets. if the club/company were separate, how could the companies liquidator sell the clubs jewels?, if the clubs (rangers/the rangers) are the same club, why did "the rangers" have to buy the history/jewels ? Edited January 19, 2017 by reaths17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I wasn't clear what kind of complaint was being referred to here, and who was serving it. But, one possible reason would be to cover your bases--if you were concerned that in the end the new company might be granted the right to carry on as if it were the old company, you very well might have recourse with the new company. Thanks for replying -it wasn't directed at you per se. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 2m2 minutes ago Poole suggests court take into account consumer law. "If any doubt about Rangers being relegated the advantage should go to Mr Kinloch.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Tugging on the Judge's heart strings James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 46s47 seconds ago Poole "Coral is a large company in a business dominated by large companies..Mr Kinloch is just one man." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 40s41 seconds ago Poole "If I am a retired restraunteer and I go for a meal I am still acting as a consumer' Judge asks "was he not a professional gambler?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 No mention of yesterday's proceedings in today's Herald. Pathetic. Any in the Scotsman ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 2m2 minutes ago Judge "if he was acting as a professional gambler this consumer law does not apply' Poole "People who are retired are allowed a hobby.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 1m1 minute ago Poole notes Coral's, argument that SPL rules apply undermined by fact no copy of these rules are available for customers in betting shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Thanks for replying -it wasn't directed at you per se. Oh I know. But I'd had the complaint thing in mind too and your question was quite relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 2m2 minutes ago Poole notes Coral "made no attempt to negotiate" over meaning of relegation which was a breach of "good faith' a breach of consumer law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman [email protected]<script data-cfhash='f9e31' type="text/javascript">/* */</script> 2m2 minutes ago Judge "if he was acting as a professional gambler this consumer law does not apply' Poole "People who are retired are allowed a hobby.' That explains yesterday's questions then. Trying to paint him as a pro gambler but lying about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yep. I wasn't aware of the consumer law caveat but even without it that line of questioning made sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 6m6 minutes ago Judge "surely main issue is the meaning of the relegation.' Poole "I'm not going to agree with that' Judge "I was inviting an argument' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) . Edited January 19, 2017 by Shug73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glottis Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Are Coral genuinely scared of losing Rangers customers if they point out liquidation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Are Coral genuinely scared of losing Rangers customers if they point out liquidation? Did you see the Orcs reaction to the Kenny Miller tweet ? Total over reaction like spoilt children, threats to close accounts (although Celtic fans were claiming to be opening accounts as a "thank you"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Are Coral genuinely scared of losing Rangers customers if they point out liquidation? Did you see the Orcs reaction to the Kenny Miller tweet ? Total over reaction like spoilt children, threats to close accounts (although Celtic fans were claiming to be opening accounts as a "thank you"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Are Coral genuinely scared of losing Rangers customers if they point out liquidation? Did you see the Orcs reaction to the Kenny Miller tweet ? Total over reaction like spoilt children, threats to close accounts (although Celtic fans were claiming to be opening accounts as a "thank you"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 27s28 seconds ago Poole notes that Coral have given 3 different versions of the meaning of the word relegation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 2m2 minutes ago Court rises for lunch, back at 1.45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) THEY WERE NEVER RELEGATED, separate what ? they folded, unable to trade, gone , liquidated, they were that liquidated they had sold the family(club) jewels to the 1st bidder, this new owner started a new business using jewels/assets. if the club/company were separate, how could the companies liquidator sell the clubs jewels?, if the clubs (rangers/the rangers) are the same club, why did "the rangers" have to buy the history/jewels ? I'm just using relegation as defined by the english dictionary. You could say the holding company/ business was liquidated. A new company bought the club. The club being, a culture/ brand etc that is always a constant, if this were the case then the club were relegated as per English dictionary definition. I agree with you, just saying that if the club is the same, then how do you explain them starting at a lower division? If the club isn't the same, then yes it is pretty clear cut, they were not relegated but kicked out, reformed, re applied and started from the lowest division.. Depends on what a football club actually is? imo In dafty terms, the club was relegated to the bottom league as a penalty for the business being liquidated. Edited January 19, 2017 by Tosh'sleftfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman [email protected]<script data-cfhash='f9e31' type="text/javascript">/* */</script> 2m2 minutes ago Poole notes Coral "made no attempt to negotiate" over meaning of relegation which was a breach of "good faith' a breach of consumer law They are making a complete arse of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 The gist of the case is to determine if Glasgow Rangers were relegated or liquidated in 2012. If the court determines that Glasgow Rangers were relegated then the punter wins his bet. Ah. And if not they have to deal with the 'same club' elephant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I am sure any Gers fans looking in will be loving the page number at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkishcap Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Tell you what they may be 8 points ahead of us but we are in far better health, we have learned and restructured while they splash cash and are still getting dragged through the courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 53s54 seconds ago Poole No mention of SPL rules in Coral's terms and conditions (the contract) "They should just be disregarded.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidsnot Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I am sure any Gers fans looking in will be loving the page number at the moment. Might be wrong but wasn't the thread on ZZ pulled this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) I thought the most telling statement from Rod McKenzie this morning was his response to a question from Mr Sandison. Counsel asks "Was the football team called Rangers FC ever relegated from the SPL?" McKenzie responds "that would require me to make a judgement on what is "relegation" and I'd rather not do so" Now that response came from the same person who admitted that he had drafted most of the rules of the SPL and had advised the SPL on many matters, yet as the person probably most qualified to make such a judgement, he is unwilling to do so. You would have to ask why. Edited January 19, 2017 by Footballfirst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reaths17 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I'm just using relegation as defined by the english dictionary. You could say the holding company/ business was liquidated. A new company bought the club. The club being, a culture/ brand etc that is always a constant, if this were the case then the club were relegated as per English dictionary definition. I agree with you, just saying that if the club is the same, then how do you explain them starting at a lower division? If the club isn't the same, then yes it is pretty clear cut, they were not relegated but kicked out, reformed, re applied and started from the lowest division.. Depends on what a football club actually is? imo In dafty terms, the club was relegated to the bottom league as a penalty for the business being liquidated. i'll say it again if the club was merely relegated why was the family jewels history copyright material etc sold then bought by another party who used this to form another entity. if they were relegated, there would be no need to tamper with anything else. they failed to be relegated as they finished 2nd FACT the ruling bodies never ever issued a punishment to RANGERS. FACT they were liquidated. FACT (empty space needing filled in............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ........................................................to reach the next sentence) "the rangers" began in the 2nd division. "during the 5way agreement they agreed to pay 250k in footballing debts belonging to the previous incarnation"(yet to be paid) FACT demotion/relegation/punishment call it whatever you want "it never happened" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I thought the most telling statement from Rod McKenzie this morning was his response to a question from Mr Sandison. Counsel asks "Was the football team called Rangers FC ever relegated from the SPL?" McKenzie responds "that would require me to make a judgement on what is "relegation" and I'd rather not do so" Now that response came from the same person who admitted that he had drafted most of the rules of the SPL and had advised the SPL on many matters, yet as the person probably most qualified to make such a judgement, he is unwilling to do so. You would have to ask why. I?m glad to see that Ms Poole picked up on this point: James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 4m4 minutes ago Poole notes that even the SPL rules have a definition of ?relegated? notes Rod McKenzie, who drafted the rules wouldn?t answer Q about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 i'll say it again if the club was merely relegated why was the family jewels history copyright material etc sold then bought by another party who used this to form another entity. if they were relegated, there would be no need to tamper with anything else. they failed to be relegated as they finished 2nd FACT the ruling bodies never ever issued a punishment to RANGERS. FACT they were liquidated. FACT (empty space needing filled in............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ........................................................to reach the next sentence) "the rangers" began in the 2nd division. "during the 5way agreement they agreed to pay 250k in footballing debts belonging to the previous incarnation"(yet to be paid) FACT demotion/relegation/punishment call it whatever you want "it never happened" What I would have thought, open and shut case. Doesn't seem to be going that way tho, anything but open and shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 7m7 minutes ago "We should not confuse the meaning of the word relegation with the mechanism. Rangers were still relegated.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Bump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 7m7 minutes ago "We should not confuse the meaning of the word relegation with the mechanism. Rangers were still relegated.' Ooft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 7m7 minutes ago "We should not confuse the meaning of the word relegation with the mechanism. Rangers were still relegated.' To which someone responded : @jamesdoleman I had a cat that was 'relegated' by the vet a couple of years ago. I still miss him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Green Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Bump... Oh my. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 3m3 minutes ago On Kinloch not going to gambling commission Poole says "taking matters to court is a basic human right" questions their independence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 To which someone responded : @jamesdoleman I had a cat that was 'relegated' by the vet a couple of years ago. I still miss him. Thing is the relegation definition backs this up if rangers are considered the same club. Not business, but club. Nice quip, but my cat is I'll ATM, I'm off to cry. If he is relegated, I'll get a kitten, call him by the same name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Still wouldn't take her home to meet my parents. My dad would have a ****** heart attack. After he'd high fived me. Whatever happened to the gif of a bursd tied up in a car boot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brunoatemyhamster Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/38655920 Going to pop this in to see if anyone can tell me the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/38655920 Going to pop this in to see if anyone can tell me the difference. They play rugby. Apart from that though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 46s46 seconds ago On odds Pool notes that clubs moving down divisions for "corporate reasons" is not common and would not automatically attract short odds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 35s35 seconds ago Poole "the fact Mr Kinloch was a former bookmaker is irrelevant, this was a winning bet" James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 21s21 seconds ago Poole "Coral winning this case would be writing a blank cheque for bookies to avoid paying out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 James Doleman ?@jamesdoleman 2m2 minutes ago Poole notes bookies gave 5000/1 odds on Leicester City winning the league "They make mistakes" she suggests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brunoatemyhamster Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 They play rugby. Apart from that though... I was meaning more along the lines of The BBC quiet happy to report this as a newco situatuion. Former New Zealand Rugby League chairman Andrew Chalmers and ex-Wigan coach Graham Lowe have been confirmed as the new owners of the Bradford club to replace the liquidated Bulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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