scott_jambo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Deloittes have two weeks to sign off the accounts, Ashley gives the franchise another loan that can be drawn down before Novembers payroll is due. I doubt they'll be an Agm in dec now unless Ashley guarantees more cash & a viable business plan to them.. What a shambles, how many loans before the Sfa wake up?. Surely a blind man can see their trading whilst insolvent & still no push to make them put up a bond like Livingston were forced to do either. Like Hearts under Romanov? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) People have previously said on here the SFA can't get involved as they've not yet broken any rules but they must be treading a fine line. The Livingston point is a very good one and yet again could be construed as one rule for Rangers and a different one for everyone else. They can if they wanted to. The SFA said they had a written agreement with Ashley re boardroom influence and have written to him requesting information about his intentions. If he hasn't answered or the response is not adequate, then I'm sure he (or the club) could be sanctioned for breaching some SFA article with regard to acting in good faith. The SPFL also have powers to inspect the books of any club at any time. Inspection of Financial Records E30 Every Club shall keep detailed financial records and the Company shall be entitled to inspect such records and to require Clubs to provide copies of any financial or other records which the Company may reasonably require in order to enable the Company to investigate whether the Club has complied and is complying with these Rules, the Articles, the Scottish FA Articles, the UEFA Statutes and the FIFA Statutes and to ensure compliance by the Club with the same. Edited November 12, 2014 by Footballfirst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Like Hearts under Romanov? At least for the bulk of the Romanov period (until Jan 2012), Hearts had assurances of funding from UBIG. Rangers don't currently have that. Any "going concern" sign-off from Deloittes will be dependent on similar assurances from Ashley or other parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strachsuit Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 At least for the bulk of the Romanov period (until Jan 2012), Hearts had assurances of funding from UBIG. Rangers don't currently have that. Any "going concern" sign-off from Deloittes will be dependent on similar assurances from Ashley or other parties. Indeed. And the rules have also changed since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Of The Cat Cafe Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 He's saved them in the sense that a chicken farmer keeps chickens alive as long as they are laying eggs for him. Great line. What's in it for MA when the chickens stop laying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Great line. What's in it for MA when the chickens stop laying? A new Sports Direct brand launch ..... "Ashley's Cream of Chicken Soup" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 At least for the bulk of the Romanov period (until Jan 2012), Hearts had assurances of funding from UBIG. Rangers don't currently have that. Any "going concern" sign-off from Deloittes will be dependent on similar assurances from Ashley or other parties. No mention of how these loans are to be paid back, now where have I heard of loans not actually being loans before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandt Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The financial fair play rules are quite clear, that's them ?16 million in debt to their "Holding Co." & ?3 million to Ashley. Assurances that they'd fulfil their fixture list would have had to be given, but no bond was asked for unlike livingston had to put up. This is better though. Ashley's dropped the naming rights, & you can now use credit cards at ?1broke, Prob through Ashley's S.Direct, that means ashley takes an "administration fee" for all transactions including future season ticket sales. He's bleeding them dry... How did Rangers amass that ?16m debt? Sorry if ive missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 This is what I don't get? they borrowed ?2m to get them to the end of the calendar year? however with falling crowds that money ran out already, so they needed another ?1m loan to get them to the end of the calendar year? this point must have significance as the AGM and the accounts need approval? so if this money is needed until the AGM so as what? another share issue, how long will that money last, what if the share plan failed to get approval or worse does not raise enough? They are going to need at least another ?7m to get them to the point when next years season ticket money rolls in, which after repaying their loans they still have no working capital? Its a total basketcase for a dog with fleas. They are just kicking the can further and further down the road with no hope of recovery, just tied into a life of spiv slavery? If the fans are wise they should go for a total boycott, and send a clear message? then they should do what we have done. There is no WHITE KNIGHT on a white charger shouting No Surrender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasavallan Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 You've probably answered this before, but do clubs not have to prove at the start of the season that they are of enough financial strength to play a season? I seem to recall Ann Budge having to attend Hampden to prove same for Hearts. Are, then, The Rangers in breach of their SFA Licence...? On a slightly different tack, when the small Basque club SD Eibar won the Spanish Segunda Division last seasons they had to demonstrate that they had the necessary funding in place before they could be promoted to the Primera Division. They had to raise capital (over ?2M) through a Second Equity Offering (SEO) before the end of July otherwise face relegation to the 3rd tier. They managed to reach their target with days to spare.. The SFA have been noticeable by their silence. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) According to the BBC the finances are in a bad state as viewed by Ashley's men who had access to the books. This ?3m loan is still not enough to see the year out. Edited November 12, 2014 by Dannie Boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 According to the BBC the finances are in a bad state as viewed by Ashley's men who had access to the books. This ?3m loan is still not enough to see the year out. ticky tock then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambali Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Like Hearts under Romanov? Almost all Hearts debt was held within the Group - difficult to call insolvency - but moot point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts007 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 According to the BBC the finances are in a bad state as viewed by Ashley's men who had access to the books. This ?3m loan is still not enough to see the year out. jeez how much money is that club going through? its utter madness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 How did Rangers amass that ?16m debt? Sorry if ive missed it. It was RIFC who raised ?22M via their IPO. That net proceeds of that money (?16M) was loaned to the football club (TRFC), a wholly owned subsidiary of RIFC. The ?16M was shown in the last full year accounts as an amount due to the parent company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Rangers' cash situation Quote "Accounts posted in October 2013 showed ?34m in annual operating costs (which included: staff costs of ?17m, operating costs of ?11m, first team player costs of ?7.8m and police, stewarding etc and other costs). This figure indicates a monthly operating cost (for the 13-month period to 13 June 2013) of ?2.6m per month. The club posted losses of ?14m in the period on a turnover of ?19.1m (most of which came from gate receipts and hospitality income). At the end of June 2013, Rangers had ?11m in cash, and no bank debt. That was after raising more than ?35m in finance, including a share offer." Quote "Mike Ashley will provide another loan to Rangers as the club continues to struggle financially. The Newcastle owner, who owns about 9% of the Ibrox club, will increase an initial loan of ?2m to ?3m. But the club says it will need more cash before the end of the year due to lower than expected match attendances" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rods Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I am hoping that they are forced to sell Mcleod and Wallace probably to Newcastle. The players that are out of contract and there is a few realise that they are not going to be getting the same wages or even playing for Rangers will cause discontent and we benefit from this over the matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We_are_the_Hearts Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I am hoping that they are forced to sell Mcleod and Wallace probably to Newcastle. The players that are out of contract and there is a few realise that they are not going to be getting the same wages or even playing for Rangers will cause discontent and we benefit from this over the matches. Wallace to Newcastle? No chance, that boat sailed a long time ago. Would be looking at mid to lower Championship at best. McLeod has potential but could end up a Scott Allan if moves too quick and to the wrong club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Wallace to Newcastle? No chance, that boat sailed a long time ago. Would be looking at mid to lower Championship at best. McLeod has potential but could end up a Scott Allan if moves too quick and to the wrong club I understand Rangers minded people believe that you should not hold back a young players move to a bigger club! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) It's astonishing that sevco were, after liquidation, in essence debt free and could start again completely from scratch and rebuild, raised ?22m and are now in the state they are in. Astonishing. Edited November 12, 2014 by Jammy T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bauld Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 It's astonishing that sevco were, after liquidation, in essence debt free and could start again completely from scratch and rebuild, raised ?22m and are now in the state they are in. Astonishing. Because they ended up with worse than Vlad in charge when it comes to wages and siphoning money out of the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalstonjambo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I wonder if ashley will just keep drip feeding them loans whilst they are still in with a chance of promotion. This money won't get them to the end of the year. Maybe if in December they are say (hopefully) 7-10 points behind us they will go into admin then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_vlad Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I wonder if ashley will just keep drip feeding them loans whilst they are still in with a chance of promotion. This money won't get them to the end of the year. Maybe if in December they are say (hopefully) 7-10 points behind us they will go into admin then? not a chance in hell they will go into admin now with ashley there, that shio has sailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 not a chance in hell they will go into admin now with ashley there, that shio has sailed. Probably right. He'll keep their heads just above the water and continue to milk them for all he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 not a chance in hell they will go into admin now with ashley there, that shio has sailed. Why not? It lets him make changes very quickly. They're already 13 points within the playoff spot, so a points penalty wouldn't hurt. If he's smart he'll already have hived off any money making part where it can't be touched. As far as i can see, if it's a better way of working than not going to admin, there is very little downside. Sure it presents some risk, but it could save a lot of time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_vlad Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Why not? It lets him make changes very quickly. They're already 13 points within the playoff spot, so a points penalty wouldn't hurt. If he's smart he'll already have hived off any money making part where it can't be touched. As far as i can see, if it's a better way of working than not going to admin, there is very little downside. Sure it presents some risk, but it could save a lot of time too. Are you talking Liquidation or administration? iMo admin wont happened as its bad news for the shareholders, the ones that sit on the higher board. The money is owed to them not to a bank so i can't see why they would wave away the money due. I can see Liquidation as you are correct that the key assets have already been shived off by him & the eastdales, so would be in Ashleys interests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 At least for the bulk of the Romanov period (until Jan 2012), Hearts had assurances of funding from UBIG. Rangers don't currently have that. Any "going concern" sign-off from Deloittes will be dependent on similar assurances from Ashley or other parties. So you are saying since Jan 2012 we were trading insolvent. Sound. I agree. Should the SFA kicked us out of the competitions at that point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo66 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Rangers' cash situation Quote "Accounts posted in October 2013 showed ?34m in annual operating costs (which included: staff costs of ?17m, operating costs of ?11m, first team player costs of ?7.8m and police, stewarding etc and other costs). This figure indicates a monthly operating cost (for the 13-month period to 13 June 2013) of ?2.6m per month. The club posted losses of ?14m in the period on a turnover of ?19.1m (most of which came from gate receipts and hospitality income). At the end of June 2013, Rangers had ?11m in cash, and no bank debt. That was after raising more than ?35m in finance, including a share offer." Quote "Mike Ashley will provide another loan to Rangers as the club continues to struggle financially. The Newcastle owner, who owns about 9% of the Ibrox club, will increase an initial loan of ?2m to ?3m. But the club says it will need more cash before the end of the year due to lower than expected match attendances" Just so I get this right, if they had a first team squad of 25 players, the average weekly wage was ?6,000. The average, for a team in the 3rd tier of Scottish football. Simply astounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strachsuit Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 So you are saying since Jan 2012 we were trading insolvent. Sound. I agree. Should the SFA kicked us out of the competitions at that point? As I said earlier, the rules changed. When the SPL merged with the SFL to become the SPFL in 2013, their rules on insolvency, proof of funding etc (along with the SFA's rules) changed in line with the McLeish report. Hearts were subject to those new rules pretty much as we went into administration. If we had not gone into admin then questions would, or at least should, have been asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) As anybody any idea what these latest loans are secured on? I could guess but do they not have to them register at Compamies house. Edited November 12, 2014 by Dannie Boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 As anybody any idea what these latest loans are secured on? I could guess but do they not have to them register at Compamies house. Secured on Edmiston House & The Car Park on the same terms as for the ?2m loan, so I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 So you are saying since Jan 2012 we were trading insolvent. Sound. I agree. Should the SFA kicked us out of the competitions at that point? There was a debate about the term "trading whilst insolvent" a while back. Trading whilst insolvent in and off itself isn't an issue. To a large extent a lot companies and could be classed as this. The definition is if you are not able to pay all debts/loans/mortgages etc if they were called in now. i.e you have more cash at hand and in the bank than you owe to all creditors, then you are insolvent. The legal issues really start if you trade whilst insolvent and have no intention of paying (at least some) bills and try and hide the state of the business from suppliers, employee's etc. Therefore taking an advantage of the potential to 'bump' creditors by administration/CVA or similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboCampbell Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 So you are saying since Jan 2012 we were trading insolvent. Sound. I agree. Should the SFA kicked us out of the competitions at that point? We somehow still managed to get accounts signed off as a going concern, albeit with massive caveats. Sevco haven't as yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 We somehow still managed to get accounts signed off as a going concern, albeit with massive caveats. Sevco haven't as yet. what month where they signed off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 what month where they signed off? The accounts were published in March 2013, IIRC, although I can't recall the date of the auditor sign-off off the top of my head. I'm sure FF has the info somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I actually don't see much benefit in the SFA wading in now. If the situation remains similar then I can see the argument for a bond in the summer if fulfilment of fixtures for next season is in doubt. There is no real value the SFA can add at this stage though. They should however have acted far sooner l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alva-Jambo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) Well whatever the implications... they cant afford to buy any of OOR players in January. so suck on that Newco. More to the point, they cant afford to release players , but they can't afford to pay this present team squad, 'till May. This means more million a month drips from Ashley. no wonder he renagued on his ?1 pound Ibrox deal. He is scunnered . If Sons of Struth guys all come back, it will save him half of that sum at least. Then he can take over all their assets more cheaply :-) Edited November 12, 2014 by Alva-Jambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) what month where they signed off? Hearts had their last published accounts (2013) signed off by the auditors on 12th September 2014. The auditors referenced as an "Emphasis of Matter" the directors statement regarding the going concern status, which had highlighted the reliance on ongoing funding from FOH, but the auditors did not qualify their opinion. Basically the auditors said that Hearts should be ok for the next 12 months, but still dependent on the ongoing support from FOH. Rangers interim accounts to the end of Dec 2013 were signed off on 27th March 2014 with the following going concern warning Emphasis of matter - Going concern In arriving at our review conclusion, which is not qualified, we have considered the adequacy of the disclosures in note 2 to the condensed set of financial statements in the half yearly report for the six months ending 31 December 2013 concerning the Company's ability to continue as a going concern. The Company has made key assumptions in relation to the timing of season ticket monies, the volume and pricing of season ticket sales, increase in matchday income and sponsorship, the timing and value of dividends from Rangers Retail Limited and further cost reductions. This condition relating to the timing of receipt of season ticket monies, along with the details provided in note 2 to the condensed set of financial statements, indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt about the Company's ability to continue as a going concern and therefore that the Company may be unable to realise its assets and discharge its liabilities in the normal course of business. The financial statements do not include the adjustments that would result if the Company was unable to continue as a going concern. Edited November 12, 2014 by Footballfirst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 From today's Times - Graham Souness has launched a bitter attack on those who voted Rangers out of Scotland's top division and "enjoyed" watching the liquidated club start again. He fears football north of the border will never fully recover from all that has happened at Ibrox. Said he was angry and saddened by events at Rangers since admin in 2012. He asks if all the people who voted for their demise would do so again if given the chance. Claims everything would be so different if he, Kennedy and Smith had got control - calls Charles Green a pr**k! Doesn't say what his part in the Ranger's financial crisis was i.e. big spending, EBTs etc. Another bitter loser. If it happened again, and I got the chance to vote, then I absolutely would vote the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiler Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 If it happened again, and I got the chance to vote, then I absolutely would vote the same way. Me also. On a side note was Souness not meant to be a Hearts man? Not that it matters mind, just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) Hearts had their last published accounts (2013) signed off by the auditors on 12th September 2014. The auditors referenced as an "Emphasis of Matter" the directors statement regarding the going concern status, which had highlighted the reliance on ongoing funding from FOH, but the auditors did not qualify their opinion. Basically the auditors said that Hearts should be ok for the next 12 months, but still dependent on the ongoing support from FOH. Rangers interim accounts to the end of Dec 2013 were signed off on 27th March 2014 with the following going concern warning Emphasis of matter - Going concern In arriving at our review conclusion, which is not qualified, we have considered the adequacy of the disclosures in note 2 to the condensed set of financial statements in the half yearly report for the six months ending 31 December 2013 concerning the Company's ability to continue as a going concern. The Company has made key assumptions in relation to the timing of season ticket monies, the volume and pricing of season ticket sales, increase in matchday income and sponsorship, the timing and value of dividends from Rangers Retail Limited and further cost reductions. This condition relating to the timing of receipt of season ticket monies, along with the details provided in note 2 to the condensed set of financial statements, indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt about the Company's ability to continue as a going concern and therefore that the Company may be unable to realise its assets and discharge its liabilities in the normal course of business. The financial statements do not include the adjustments that would result if the Company was unable to continue as a going concern. So all things being the same we should give Rangers the benefit of the doubt for another year or so at least. Edited November 12, 2014 by scott_jambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alva-Jambo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 A million a month, a million a month.. how much is Ashley getting from the revised ( pro Ashley board) for his million a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) So all things being the same we should give Rangers the benefit of the doubt for another year or so at least. They already have the benefit of the doubt until they publish their full year accounts (due by 31/12/14), when a new sign off will be required. Failure to produce the accounts by that date will lead to a suspension of their shares on AIM. It probably won't elicit a response from the SFA just as long as they get audited accounts to them by the 31/03/15 deadline when the new round of club licensing starts. What we do know comes from public statements, that ST sales have not reached the required numbers and the club has required to seek external funding in September and again in November and will have to do so again by the end of the year. That was a key issue for the auditors in the March sign off. Edited November 12, 2014 by Footballfirst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrambo Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 So all things being the same we should give Rangers the benefit of the doubt for another year or so at least. Scott you really are a glutton for punishment eh, why do you keep coming back to this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) The statement released does of course make it clear that more money will be required before the end of December... needed for the staff salaries no doubt. "The directors have begun a cost cutting exercise, but further working capital in addition to the Facility will be needed before the end of the year." So whilst the second tranch of Ashley money has bought time to the end of 2014 there is a pressing need for more to even last to the end of this season. The real question is where that large amount comes from ?...another share issue ?, player sales and other player cost cutting though the BBC think not...... 'The BBC has learned that job losses are now likely at Rangers following news of the cost cutting drive at Ibrox. It is understood the playing squad will not be cut, but a number of off-field staff are likely to lose their jobs.' Cutting costs outside the playing staff will not have the significant savings required and it does tend to lean towards sale of a player or two and that would almost certainly mean moves for Wallace and Macleod ...the publicity the latter has received recently may not be a coincidence as it has helped to drive his value upwards........what price a deal with Newcastle United with perhaps a slightly inflated sum going to Rangers to help matters ? Of course the other option is funds coming into the club from a share deal or perhaps a naming rights deal especially as much was made of this by the Easdales. A share deal may be a very difficult sell to investors given the control exerted by Ashley in the deals made with the club. The saga will continue into the new year but there is no sign of a white knight coming in to clear the debt, buy players and take the club forward... Ashley is making sure they survive but at the moment not enough input to make them prosper.......who knows though what will happen in the future especially if he did manage to wriggle out of his gentlemans agreement with the Scottish football authorities. Edited November 12, 2014 by CJGJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12XU Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 How about HMFC offer 850k for Macleod with a further fee of 10% of any other sale within the next 3 seasons ? Yes we can afford it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) Just so I get this right, if they had a first team squad of 25 players, the average weekly wage was ?6,000. The average, for a team in the 3rd tier of Scottish football. Simply astounding. They also paid their manager almost ?2 million pounds to get them from the fourth tier of Scottish football to the second tier with said players. Edited November 12, 2014 by Ray Gin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_vlad Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 How about HMFC offer 850k for Macleod with a further fee of 10% of any other sale within the next 3 seasons ? Yes we can afford it Iirc they offered 50k for Patterson at the same time we sold them temps! ******* tramps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboz Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 The Loan Ar rangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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