The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.

[RobNox]

Unless say for example, the guy who own retail decides to pick up the post admin carcass of the club for pennies?

Sold for a pound again! That would be funny!!

[kingantti1874]

The first time we defaulted on wages, all we got was a slap on the wrist.

 

There was no rule to cover that scenario.

[DETTY29]

Unless say for example, the guy who own retail decides to pick up the post admin carcass of the club for pennies?

Has he put Newcastle United up for sale yet?

[Hagar the Horrible]

The first thing will be a wage freeze, the second will be unable to pay a bill? even a small one can cause a problem? the first time they are taken to court to force a payment will trip them over the edge! the wages and then the bill will start pilling in, and pretty soon any money from future games wont be to cover the future month but the previous one and any monies not covered mount up! they are insolvent but will go down again owing very little money

[Martin_T]

It's cash flow, or lack of which causes insolvency, not necessarily debt. If money going out exceeds that coming in then the company is in trouble. I'm pretty sure for example that Fly Globespan were profitable, but ran out of ready cash and thus went bust.

[UnbelievableJeff]

Have I understood the current situation.

 

1. Rangers two big debts are the two loans of over ?1million which are secured on assets and are overdue but haven't been called in yet.

 

2. Calling either or both if those loans does not mean administration, it means that the said assets change hands.

 

3. There are no other creditors at this time who could force administration so, short term at least, administration is unlikely.

 

4. The tactic of those who wish to takeover the club is to starve the current owners of operating funds. A tactic that is close to succeeding.

 

5. In the event that the current owners can no longer operate the club, they will need to declare it insolvent, and have the assets liquidated and sold to the highest bidder. They then receive the proceeds, after debts are paid and are excluded from future ownership.

 

6. In that event the new owners of the new company will have to be voted in to the SPFL as they were last time.

Edited September 7, 2014 by UnbelievableJeff

[Paolo]

It's cash flow, or lack of which causes insolvency, not necessarily debt. If money going out exceeds that coming in then the company is in trouble. I'm pretty sure for example that Fly Globespan were profitable, but ran out of ready cash and thus went bust.

 

Correct. Fly Globespan were. The recent they went bust was due to cashflow, because the credit card merchant they used, were themselves in financial difficulty, meaning they could not forward the money due, to them. This meant Fly Globespan then had no cash flow.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Claudia

[davieholt]

Have I understood the current situation.

 

1. Rangers two big debts are the two loans of over ?1million which are secured on assets and are overdue but haven't been called in yet.

 

2. Calling either or both if those loans does not mean administration, it means that the said assets change hands.

 

3. There are no other creditors at this time who could force administration so, short term at least, administratio in unlikely.

 

4. The tactic of those who wish to takeover the club is to starve the current owners of operating funds. A tactic that is close to succeeding.

 

5. In the event that the current owners can no longer operate the club, they will need to declare it insolvent, and have the assets liquidated and sold to the highest bidder. They then receive the proceeds, after debts are paid and are excluded from future ownership.

 

6. In that event the new owners of the new company will have to be voted in to the SPFL as they were last time.

 

I don't think 2 above is quite right. As I understand it the loan is secured against an asset. This means that, in extremis, the asset could be sold and the loan repaid out of the proceeds. If, for example a loan of ?500k was secured on Ibrox, the ground wouldn't be handed over in the event of default. Instead, the lender would have a priority claim on the proceeds if he forced the sale of the ground.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

 

 

Has he put Newcastle United up for sale yet?

 

Call me paranoid but I don't believe anything written in rule books by the SPFL or the SFA will prevent Ashley or King from saving Rangers if they want to.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

 

Has he put Newcastle United up for sale yet?

 

Would he need to do it right away? If they can't possibly meet in European competition for at least three years, would it matter? Have the rules been changed since Romanovs pyramid?

[Paolo]

 

 

 

Call me paranoid but I don't believe anything written in rule books by the SPFL or the SFA will prevent Ashley or King from saving Rangers if they want to.

 

The problem with the rules is that almost every one is followed by 'at the board's discretion'.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Claudia

[I P Knightley]

Oh Dear.

 

http://www.dailyreco...te-spfl-4177789

 

They are really just putting off the inevitable - they'd be better doing it voluntarily, taking the points deduction and moving on quietly.

rules introduced two years ago on the back of Hearts? problems

...feeling a little bit proud of this!

It's cash flow, or lack of which causes insolvency, not necessarily debt. If money going out exceeds that coming in then the company is in trouble. I'm pretty sure for example that Fly Globespan were profitable, but ran out of ready cash and thus went bust.

Spot on. In simple terms, if you sell a whole load of stuff, you'll show revenue in your P&L, possibly leading to a profit. If you've sold that stuff on credit but collecting the cash in takes you 90 to 120 days, you could be in trouble despite the healthy looking P&L. (This was a contributory factor in Globespan's demise).

[DETTY29]

Have I understood the current situation.

 

1. Rangers two big debts are the two loans of over ?1million which are secured on assets and are overdue but haven't been called in yet.

Letham doesn't want to take the assets. He wants his cash ?1.045m back (plus accruing interest at 10% since July). It's unlikely Easdale will ask for his loan to be repaid until there is an up turn in finances.

 

2. Calling either or both if those loans does not mean administration, it means that the said assets change hands.

If the first share option fails to get ?3m, it doesn't go ahead. And there is probably no money to pay Letham in full. Not sure what he would do, but I think it is unlikely he would serve a winding up order. He may accept some form of monthly / quarterly terms.

 

3. There are no other creditors at this time who could force administration so, short term at least, administration is unlikely.

They need above ?3m to pay back the current creditors (Letham / Easdale) and to continue trading for next few months to get to the rights issue. Apparantly there is build up of creditors. Anyone of these could serve a winding up order if not paid. We should know by the end of this week how successful the share option has been. If not there may be a line of creditors heading to the Courts - unless of course a shareholder announces they are going to provide loan facilities instead.

As a PS - VAT was due 07 August, which we will assume has been paid. Next 1/4 due in November.

 

TRFC owe RIFC c.?18m. If all cash raising options are exhausted, I'd imagine RIFC will want to control administration/liquidation, so they may the most likely people to go to court.

 

4. The tactic of those who wish to takeover the club is to starve the current owners of operating funds. A tactic that is close to succeeding.

Probably, on the hope that the current owners will sell out on the cheap although I think they (King/SoS/UoF etc) are probably resigned to an insolvency event to get the business on the cheap and invest the money they can raise in the new business going forward against buying the spivs out. The current business income / expenditure is a busted flush and will continue to be so for some time, potentially even after administration. The business needs subsidised.

 

5. In the event that the current owners can no longer operate the club, they will need to declare it insolvent, and have the assets liquidated and sold to the highest bidder. They then receive the proceeds, after debts are paid and are excluded from future ownership.

This goes back to operating company (RIFC) and the football club (TRFC). Personally I think RIFC will do whatever it can to seperate the key assets from TRFC and place in RIFC.

 

 

6. In that event the new owners of the new company will have to be voted in to the SPFL as they were last time.

Mmmm. We'll see. It was very easy last time to place them in Div3 as the season had ended. This has all sorts of problems this time. I wouldn't be surprised if continuity wins the day. Also and I could be wrong, it isn't up to the clubs anymore but the SPFL board.

 

Edit - if true re board now v. clubs decision, here are the poor sods who are going to have to make the decision.

 

 

The current SPFL Board is made up of Neil Doncaster (CEO), Ralph Topping (Chairman), Eric Riley (Celtic), Stephen Thompson (Dundee United), Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen), Eric Drysdale (Raith Rovers), Mike Mulraney (Alloa Athletic) and Ken Ferguson (Brechin City).

 

 

Edited September 7, 2014 by DETTY29

[DETTY29]

Would he need to do it right away? If they can't possibly meet in European competition for at least three years, would it matter? Have the rules been changed since Romanovs pyramid?

I don't know either

 

I couldn't understand where this 10% thing comes from when Romanov controlled 3 clubs.

 

So maybe there was a change in SFA rules.

[Rudolf's Mate]

Have I understood the current situation.

 

1. Rangers two big debts are the two loans of over ?1million which are secured on assets and are overdue but haven't been called in yet.

 

2. Calling either or both if those loans does not mean administration, it means that the said assets change hands.

 

I could be wrong however the two man creditors calling in the debt doesn't mean the assets change hands. They'd have the option of settling the debt or possibly restructuring. Settling means someone investing which seems unlikely however the outcome you mention certainly seems likely.

 

 

3. There are no other creditors at this time who could force administration so, short term at least, administration is unlikely.

 

 

Thing is now this money has been ring fenced it means they default on any monthly outgoings, all other creditors will be eager to minimise losses and will look to act.

 

This could have an impact on anything from hire purchase agreements to utilities.

 

One example is their phones/mobiles. If I was their supplier I'd be looking for a payment to hold on their account in the event of an insolvency event. The payment would need to cover 6/7 weeks worth of billing due to these being billed in arrears resulting in the supplier being exposed.

 

Basically with no cash flow any monthly creditor could essentially be the one to push them over the edge. Even for a relatively small amount.

 

 

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

 

I don't know either

 

I couldn't understand where this 10% thing comes from when Romanov controlled 3 clubs.

 

So maybe there was a change in SFA rules.

 

I think Romanov declared himself as only a "backer" of FB Kaunas, in order to get round this... I think.

 

Would it not be quite easy for Ashley to sell NUFC for a massive profit, and keep hold of their merchandising/retail arm, and then buy post admin Rangers for peanuts and be quids in?

 

Again I'm not sure, just chucking it out there.

[Meadows]

My gut feeling is that Ashley will bail them out with an 'advance' from the retail arm (if he has'nt already) This will see them to the end of October, They are dependant on match day income,TV Monies, and of course the Share Issue. Whilst i'd love them to come crashing down, i fear they will limp over the finish line in 2nd place.

[DETTY29]

My gut feeling is that Ashley will bail them out with an 'advance' from the retail arm (if he has'nt already) This will see them to the end of October, They are dependant on match day income,TV Monies, and of course the Share Issue. Whilst i'd love them to come crashing down, i fear they will limp over the finish line in 2nd place.

Ashley is a really interesting one.

 

Keith Jackson is adamant he just wants to strip out the last remaining pieces of flesh from the carcass. However, there are still Rangers fans out there who think (more hope) that this multi billionaire will sell up an EPL club, that I think are unbelievably the 5th biggest income generator in the EPL, and chuck all his NUFC profit; personal and Sports Direct wealth in to Rangers.

 

So what do the Rangers fans do?

 

Boycott all Rangers Retail and Sports Direct to try and push Ashley out? But he has a water tight onerous contract for 7 years.

 

or

 

Jump full in and only ever buy clothing and merchandise from Rangers Retail and hope that Ashley falls in love with Rangers and pumps billions and zillions of his wealth in to them.

[Cardiac Rucksack]

I am convinced rangers will be failing to meet there tax and NI contributions again.

[Le Chat]

HMRC are the key to all of this again.

 

I know that you have to pay your VAT every 3 months but I'm fairly certain that you need to pay over the National Insurance you deduct from your employees wages every 30 days.

 

If the huns cant pay the taxman they'll come down on them like a tonne of bricks after what happened with the last carnation of Rangers.

 

Edited September 7, 2014 by Le Chat

[Meadows]

HMRC are the key to all of this again.

 

I know that you have to pay your VAT every 3 months but I'm fairly certain that you need to pay over the National Insurance you deduct from your employees wages every 30 days.

 

If the huns cant pay the taxman they'll come down on them like a tonne of bricks after what happened with the last carnation of Rangers.

 

That is a scenario i would love !

[Cade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTY8A1hBiP8

[Footballfirst]

Graham Wallace makes an appearance on Dragons Den.

 

GW: We are seeking new investment of ?3.9M in return for 23% of the business.

Peter Jones: What are you planning to use the money for?

GW: Oh, just to keep the lights on for a couple of months.

PJ: I'm out

Deborah Meaden: What about longer term plans?

GW: We have plans to reach the promised land within 3 years

DM: How do you propose to fund that?

GW: We'll be back in a couple of months seeking more investment

DM: How much?

GW: Just ?20 million in return for 50% of the business

DM: I'm out.

etc.

etc.

[132goals1958]

HMRC are the key to all of this again.

 

I know that you have to pay your VAT every 3 months but I'm fairly certain that you need to pay over the National Insurance you deduct from your employees wages every 30 days.

 

If the huns cant pay the taxman they'll come down on them like a tonne of bricks after what happened with the last carnation of Rangers.

 

They have to pay Income tax, Employer & Employees National Insurance by the 22^nd of each month. Real Time information has to be with HMRC on or before salaries are paid, so there is no hiding place. There has been a lot of pay at the gate activity recently, so a hefty VAT payment might be imminent. T he combined Liability due to Hector will I suspect be fairly significant. After allowing for ring fenced funds, in the absence of new funding all that will be left are a few buttons and bolts.

[Le Chat]

They have to pay Income tax, Employer & Employees National Insurance by the 22^nd of each month. Real Time information has to be with HMRC on or before salaries are paid, so there is no hiding place. There has been a lot of pay at the gate activity recently, so a hefty VAT payment might be imminent. T he combined Liability due to Hector will I suspect be fairly significant. After allowing for ring fenced funds, in the absence of new funding all that will be left are a few buttons and bolts.

 

[Alva-Jambo]

Graham Wallace makes an appearance on Dragons Den.

 

GW: We are seeking new investment of ?3.9M in return for 23% of the business.

Peter Jones: What are you planning to use the money for?

GW: Oh, just to keep the lights on for a couple of months.

PJ: I'm out

Deborah Meaden: What about longer term plans?

GW: We have plans to reach the promised land within 3 years

DM: How do you propose to fund that?

GW: We'll be back in a couple of months seeking more investment

DM: How much?

GW: Just ?20 million in return for 50% of the business

DM: I'm out.

etc.

etc.

very good!

[Alva-Jambo]

They have to pay Income tax, Employer & Employees National Insurance by the 22^nd of each month. Real Time information has to be with HMRC on or before salaries are paid, so there is no hiding place. There has been a lot of pay at the gate activity recently, so a hefty VAT payment might be imminent. T he combined Liability due to Hector will I suspect be fairly significant. After allowing for ring fenced funds, in the absence of new funding all that will be left are a few buttons and bolts.

Surely all the pay at the gate income means they have a lot more cash than the 1.2 Million mentioned recently. Where is it? I make it around ?450K over the past month ( approx)

Edited September 7, 2014 by Alva-Jambo

[The Gasman]

Surely all the pay at the gate income means they have a lot more cash than the 1.2 Million mentioned recently. Where is it? I make it around ?450K over the past month ( approx)

 

Remember that their "normal" running costs are between ?1.5m and ?2m per month, with a loss of over ?0.5m a month....

 

 

[132goals1958]

Surely all the pay at the gate income means they have a lot more cash than the 1.2 Million mentioned recently. Where is it? I make it around ?450K over the past month ( approx)

 

They have had 3 league games and the fixture against Hibs where season tickets were invalid. In addition to season tickets I would estimate ball park walk ups at 12500 x 4 @ say average price ?18.00 = ?900000. minimum. As that figure is VAT inclusive only ?750000 would eventually go into their own coffers.

[maroonlegions]

Tick tock.

Edited September 7, 2014 by maroonlegions

[Footballfirst]

Remember that their "normal" running costs are between ?1.5m and ?2m per month, with a loss of over ?0.5m a month....

 

Their costs and revenue are a bit higher than that. Their last 6 months figures (to 31/12/13) showed Operating expenses of ?16.8M, i.e. ?2.8M a month.

 

Revenue in those same 6 months was ?13.16M, including a hefty ?4.5M from Retail that is not likely to be repeated. i.e. ?2.2M a month

[Alva-Jambo]

So , on this present squeeze of cash you'd expect them to ask players to take a wage cut - imminently!

[Guest GhostHunter]

Ashley is quietly stripping the assets from right under their noses..the purchase of the retail arm, and the TUPE'ing of all it's staff, to me, is a clear indication of that...

[Beni]

HMRC are the key to all of this again.

 

 

 

If the huns cant pay the taxman they'll come down on them like a tonne of bricks after what happened with the last carnation of Rangers.

 

 

 

 

If this happens I'll cream myself.

[Bauld]

Are they dead yet?

[Turkishcap]

Will there be a seethe if nothing transpires?

 

 

 

 

www.edinburgh-capitals.com Madge Wisemove fb page. For all your puck and pussy needs.

[RenfrewHearts]

 

 

I'll let you decide...

 

(24 seconds in)

 

 

The big house must stay open!!

 

Edited September 7, 2014 by RenfrewHearts

[Cheile]

HMRC are the key to all of this again.

 

I know that you have to pay your VAT every 3 months but I'm fairly certain that you need to pay over the National Insurance you deduct from your employees wages every 30 days.

 

If the huns cant pay the taxman they'll come down on them like a tonne of bricks after what happened with the last carnation of Rangers.

 

 

I have previously posted on this thread about Hector keeping a very close eye on the goings on at Ibrox. Believe me when I say that HMRC are hovering like vultures waiting for the merest slip up, a relative works in HMRC, this is my source.

[alicante jambo]

I like you cheile.Im gonna keep logged in 24\7 and keep my eye on what you post or what youre relative tells you.Tick tock

[Diadora Van Basten]

I reckon it will be a couple of months before Rangers go into admin.

 

Insolvent businesses can usually stagger on for a while by robbing Peter to pay Paul before they accept their fate.

[Jambof3tornado]

 

 

I have previously posted on this thread about Hector keeping a very close eye on the goings on at Ibrox. Believe me when I say that HMRC are hovering like vultures waiting for the merest slip up, a relative works in HMRC, this is my source.

I would imagine any previous leeway Rangers had on offer from HMRC are very much a thing of the past (not a unique thing to Rangers to be fair).

 

I still think one of the loans not being repaid will push them over the edge.

[Jambof3tornado]

I reckon it will be a couple of months before Rangers go into admin.

 

Insolvent businesses can usually stagger on for a while by robbing Peter to pay Paul before they accept their fate.

Peter and Paul are both skint though?

[Footballfirst]

Will there be a seethe if nothing transpires?

 

It's perfectly possible that the share offer will be taken up this time round, but it will only be buying them time and ensuring that the Spivs get the dis-appplication they are looking for as and when the next share issue comes around. In between times the accounts will have to be published, qualified or otherwise.

[jamboinglasgow]

Ashley is quietly stripping the assets from right under their noses..the purchase of the retail arm, and the TUPE'ing of all it's staff, to me, is a clear indication of that...

 

So much more he could take. It reads to me of a man who knows whats coming and is grabbing what he can in the panic of others to keep the profitable parts of the club. Could he make a move for the stadium next...

[I P Knightley]

HMRC are the key to all of this again.

 

I know that you have to pay your VAT every 3 months but I'm fairly certain that you need to pay over the National Insurance you deduct from your employees wages every 30 days.

 

If the huns cant pay the taxman they'll come down on them like a tonne of bricks after what happened with the last carnation of Rangers.

 

 

If this happens I'll cream myself.

Well played.

[Brandt]

I reckon it will be a couple of months before Rangers go into admin.

 

Insolvent businesses can usually stagger on for a while by robbing Peter to pay Paul before they accept their fate.

 

Peter & Paul Easley

[Deevers]

 

I reckon it will be a couple of months before Rangers go into admin.

 

Insolvent businesses can usually stagger on for a while by robbing Peter to pay Paul before they accept their fate.

If they lose the appeal next week and the share issue is seriously under subscribed they'll be calling in the Administrators before the end of the month. They are in serious trouble.

[Hagar the Horrible]

 

I recon it will be the end of September? If the share issue fails, but November at the latest IF the share issue goes ahead? but at best it will just make the target and no more i.e. the min ?3m. The future share issue will die because if this one fails to get an underwriter there is NO chance of this one getting one? let alone raising ?30m!!!!

[fabienleclerq]

 

 

It is true.

 

Jim Spence ?@bbcjimspence 37s

Stadium naming rights catching on. @AlloaWasps set to do it with the Recs.

 

?@AlloaWasps: @bbcjimspence 6 figure sum according to Alloa chairman Mike Mulraney.?very nice bit of work in that case.

 

 

Could we chip in and get them to name it Ibrox?

[jock _turd]

See 99% of the guff on this thread is it all just wishful thinking? Honestly we on about Hibs wanting us dead, is this crap any different? If they go under fair enough then dish it out to them but I just don't get this w~~~ fest... still nice have an obsession I suppose?