Should Steven Naismith be sacked? ( merged )

7 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

You’ll want to compound it as well, if things get worse under Naismith. It’s just a case of how bad it needs to get before almost all supporters want change and some folk are already at that point. 
 

Pretty normal sequence of events. Apart from the folk already being at that point, way too early imo.

1 minute ago, cazzyy said:

 

Pretty normal sequence of events. Apart from the folk already being at that point, way too early imo.

Things can always change quickly in football but it’s not looking good for him. The next four games will tell a lot. 2 games against Rangers which we’ll probably lose, if we are well organised and committed then we take it on the chin, if we play like we did against Celtic then the writing is on the wall imo. Livingston in the middle of the Huns games, must win. Motherwell away depends on the results of the first three games but as things stand it could be Naisy’s last game. 

Morning!

Slaphead out.

Budge out.

PHM know the score.

3 minutes ago, cazzyy said:

 

Pretty normal sequence of events. Apart from the folk already being at that point, way too early imo.

In what world is it normal?

Paying off two separate management teams, both in the relative infancy of long lucrative contracts.

Its an absolute shit show. 

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Things can always change quickly in football but it’s not looking good for him. The next four games will tell a lot. 2 games against Rangers which we’ll probably lose, if we are well organised and committed then we take it on the chin, if we play like we did against Celtic then the writing is on the wall imo. Livingston in the middle of the Huns games, must win. Motherwell away depends on the results of the first three games but as things stand it could be Naisy’s last game. 

You could be right, the other way to look at it is that after a run of tough games it follows that a run of not so tough games will be next up.

1 minute ago, Bad Religion said:

 

In what world is it normal?

 

Paying off two separate management teams, both in the relative infancy of long lucrative contracts.

 

Its an absolute shit show. 

Sorry I thought it was pretty obvious what is normal about it.

"You’ll want to compound it as well, if things get worse under Naismith"

If things get worse he will need to go and that will compound the issue of us paying several different management teams. Not normal is doing it now because things might not improve.

1 minute ago, cazzyy said:

 

You could be right, the other way to look at it is that after a run of tough games it follows that a run of not so tough games will be next up.

Yep, he could ride it out, I do believe if the board think it’s the right thing to do then they’ll go for it. 
 

He has had easier fixtures up to the Celtic game though and not taken full advantage. There have been glimpses of what he wants us to do, Aberdeen game and most of the Hibs game and a few periods during other games but largely how he says he wants us to play and how we are actually playing are poles apart. Needs to get it together quickly. 

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Yep, he could ride it out, I do believe if the board think it’s the right thing to do then they’ll go for it. 
 

He has had easier fixtures up to the Celtic game though and not taken full advantage. There have been glimpses of what he wants us to do, Aberdeen game and most of the Hibs game and a few periods during other games but largely how he says he wants us to play and how we are actually playing are poles apart. Needs to get it together quickly. 

The board will find any excuse not to act

5 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Yep, he could ride it out, I do believe if the board think it’s the right thing to do then they’ll go for it. 
 

He has had easier fixtures up to the Celtic game though and not taken full advantage. There have been glimpses of what he wants us to do, Aberdeen game and most of the Hibs game and a few periods during other games but largely how he says he wants us to play and how we are actually playing are poles apart. Needs to get it together quickly. 

Agreed.

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The board will find any excuse not to act

How I see it going, Rangers at Ibrox, humiliating defeat, Livi, home win, rangers semi, humiliating defeat. Motherwell defeat then Naismith sacked. 
 

That sequence of results alone wouldn’t see a hearts manager sacked but the damage is already done. 

5 minutes ago, cazzyy said:

 

Sorry I thought it was pretty obvious what is normal about it.

 

"You’ll want to compound it as well, if things get worse under Naismith"

 

If things get worse he will need to go and that will compound the issue of us paying several different management teams. Not normal is doing it now because things might not improve.

 

Well good luck to him, I really would like him to turn it around but I honestly can't see it.

McKinlay being a cock last night doesn't help him either. Just exacerbates the rapidly increasing animosity from the fans directed at the club. He's the one who'll get the brunt of it too, standing in the dugout.

Just now, GinRummy said:

How I see it going, Rangers at Ibrox, humiliating defeat, Livi, home win, rangers semi, humiliating defeat. Motherwell defeat then Naismith sacked. 
 

That sequence of results alone wouldn’t see a hearts manager sacked but the damage is already done. 

Most likely. It’s been a complete shambles from the get-go. A shambles of the board’s making, yet again. Utterly incompetent 

44 minutes ago, cazzyy said:

 

And folk want to compound that by adding a new management team's salaries while still paying the current team for another 3 years.

Most contracts have a set number of months pay off built in. They don’t get paid the full length of contract like years gone by

5 minutes ago, cazzyy said:

 

You could be right, the other way to look at it is that after a run of tough games it follows that a run of not so tough games will be next up.

You clearly haven't looked at December and the festive fixtures then...........

Kilmarnock, Aberdeen, Celtic, Hibernian and Livingston all away from home. Oh and Rangers at Tynecastle. Those 6 fixtures were played 11 times in the league last season and we took a grand total of 3pts out of 33 (3 draws and 8 defeats) with a combined score of 4-22.

So yeah good luck turning things around given we are somehow actually poorer this season. 

1 hour ago, Shanks said:

 

Naismith will be on an absolute fortune.  We gave him a 4 year contract to join us and theres no chance he has walked away from that bumper deal when he became our manager.  Couple that with the fact we are still paying robbie the loser until July 2025 our spend on managers must be insane.  
 

 

He completed 3 out of 4 years of that contract as a player then retired voiding year 4. He would then have been offered an entirely different contract as B team manger and would have been given another contract again when appointed manager full time in the summer.

6 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

Most contracts have a set number of months pay off built in. They don’t get paid the full length of contract like years gone by

Really?  Then what's the point of signing a contract longer than that pay off length?

Edit: this link suggests that what you say is not true, settlements are negotiated or they can sit tight, not take another job and continue to get paid.

https://www.90min.com/posts/biggest-pay-offs-from-clubs-sacked-managers

5 minutes ago, Bad Religion said:

 

Well good luck to him, I really would like him to turn it around but I honestly can't see it.

 

McKinlay being a cock last night doesn't help him either. Just exacerbates the rapidly increasing animosity from the fans directed at the club. He's the one who'll get the brunt of it too, standing in the dugout.

McKinlay is just an extension of the Budge regime. An absolute ***** 

1 minute ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

You clearly haven't looked at December and the festive fixtures then...........

 

Kilmarnock, Aberdeen, Celtic, Hibernian and Livingston all away from home. Oh and Rangers at Tynecastle. Those 6 fixtures were played 11 times in the league last season and we took a grand total of 3pts out of 33 (3 draws and 8 defeats) with a combined score of 4-22.

 

So yeah good luck turning things around given we are somehow actually poorer this season. 

Better get a new manager in now then, or should we wait till those impossibly difficult ties are out of the way?

Just now, cazzyy said:

 

Better get a new manager in now then, or should we wait till those impossibly difficult ties are out of the way?

Season is most likely ****ed either way. Our useless board would take ages to find a replacement (unless we just got Wankson again). Fox as caretaker in the meantime, with Budge buzzing about maybe just giving it to him full time. 

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Season is most likely ****ed either way. Our useless board would take ages to find a replacement (unless we just got Wankson again). Fox as caretaker in the meantime, with Budge buzzing about maybe just giving it to him full time. 

She'll probably be on holiday.

4 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

He completed 3 out of 4 years of that contract as a player then retired voiding year 4. He would then have been offered an entirely different contract as B team manger and would have been given another contract again when appointed manager full time in the summer.

Be surprised if he just walked away from a years huge salary.  Remember he delayed signing for us so he would get a massive bonus out of norwich, hes no the type of guy to give up money thats been agreed previously.

He could have said to the club ive got one year left, i can either sit on my arse getting paid or you can give me coach role on that money.  

Just now, Bad Religion said:

 

She'll probably be on holiday.

well true. Or in John Lewis analysing the linen

1 minute ago, cazzyy said:

 

Really?  Then what's the point of signing a contract longer than that pay off length?

I’d imagine the longer the contract term the bigger the pay off. It gives protection to the club as well if someone was to come in and take them. My mate is an agent.

Will obviously be different in each circumstance but they’d negotiate based on % of contract left to run etc.

The original point about it being costly to chop and change manager is right though, it’s important to get the appointments right in the first place 

2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Season is most likely ****ed either way. Our useless board would take ages to find a replacement (unless we just got Wankson again). Fox as caretaker in the meantime, with Budge buzzing about maybe just giving it to him full time. 

Which is why Naismith will get every opportunity to turn things around.

43 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Yep and as we grew stronger we then appointed worse managers with more experience. 

If only the board had got management team right when Robbie left 1st time around while we were sitting 2nd in the league 

2 minutes ago, Shanks said:

 

Be surprised if he just walked away from a years huge salary.  Remember he delayed signing for us so he would get a massive bonus out of norwich, hes no the type of guy to give up money thats been agreed previously.

 

He could have said to the club ive got one year left, i can either sit on my arse getting paid or you can give me coach role on that money.  

You're wrong 

3 minutes ago, cazzyy said:

 

Which is why Naismith will get every opportunity to turn things around.

Oh good

15 minutes ago, cazzyy said:

 

Better get a new manager in now then, or should we wait till those impossibly difficult ties are out of the way?

If we get smashed on Sunday I hope they sack him immediately to give us a semblance of a chance in the semi-final. As things stand we have no hope in either Rangers match meaning that really they are praying he wins next Wednesday so they can hang on. Tynie will be toxic if that games go south too. 

Just now, Luckies1874 said:

 

If we get smashed on Sunday I hop they sack him immediately to give us a semblance of a chance in the semi-final. As things stand we have no chance in either Rangers match meaning that really they are praying he wins next Wednesday so they can hang on. Tynie will be toxic if that games go south too. 

There is not a chance in hell that our board will be prepared to appoint someone at that sort notice. They’re clueless and incompetent. If it’s not Naiclue then it will be Fox, which is just as bad.

Or potentially Snoreson, which would be funny just to destroy what’s left of Budge’s credibility 

Just now, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

If only the board had got management team right when Robbie left 1st time around while we were sitting 2nd in the league 

They’ve got things badly wrong and I’ve not read the ‘who would you want as next manager’ thread yet. 
 

The thing that I have noticed in the last few years is just how poor the managers at all three clubs with a similar budget have been. Who is the last manager that could be classed as successful at Hibs? Maybe Lennon? Aberdeen? Definitely McInnes imo. Us? Only Neilson since admin.

So are all three clubs with broadly similar budgets guilty of having “clueless” or “incompetent” boards or are these jobs just not attractive to any decent quality candidates out with the Scottish game?

13 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

I’d imagine the longer the contract term the bigger the pay off. It gives protection to the club as well if someone was to come in and take them. My mate is an agent.

 

Will obviously be different in each circumstance but they’d negotiate based on % of contract left to run etc.

 

The original point about it being costly to chop and change manager is right though, it’s important to get the appointments right in the first place 

Well if as you now say, it is negotiated depending on how long the contract has to run that is completely different from having a set number of months built in which was your earlier claim.

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

They’ve got things badly wrong and I’ve not read the ‘who would you want as next manager’ thread yet. 
 

The thing that I have noticed in the last few years is just how poor the managers at all three clubs with a similar budget have been. Who is the last manager that could be classed as successful at Hibs? Maybe Lennon? Aberdeen? Definitely McInnes imo. Us? Only Neilson since admin.

 

So are all three clubs with broadly similar budgets guilty of having “clueless” or “incompetent” boards or are these jobs just not attractive to any decent quality candidates out with the Scottish game?

The last paragraph is a fair one in the sense that attracting managers to Scotland isn’t easy.

But if your answer to that is ‘just appoint a lowland league coach’ then as a board, you’re part of the problem.

The Budge regime are an embarrassment

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

They’ve got things badly wrong and I’ve not read the ‘who would you want as next manager’ thread yet. 
 

The thing that I have noticed in the last few years is just how poor the managers at all three clubs with a similar budget have been. Who is the last manager that could be classed as successful at Hibs? Maybe Lennon? Aberdeen? Definitely McInnes imo. Us? Only Neilson since admin.

 

So are all three clubs with broadly similar budgets guilty of having “clueless” or “incompetent” boards or are these jobs just not attractive to any decent quality candidates out with the Scottish game?

Up until this summer I've always been supportive and tried to make excuses etc but appointing a yts experiment to learn on the job changed my mind tbh.

The amount of money we've thrown down the river paying of huge mistakes is indefensible Cathro and his hippy partner , Levein , Stendal and his team. Levein , Robbie and McCulloch after months earlier giving them new 3 year contracts and it's inevitable Naismith gonna be out the door at some point soon and that's before we even mention the amount of money wasted on some amount of absolute shite players

8 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

If we get smashed on Sunday I hope they sack him immediately to give us a semblance of a chance in the semi-final. As things stand we have no hope in either Rangers match meaning that really they are praying he wins next Wednesday so they can hang on. Tynie will be toxic if that games go south too. 

Rangers? The Rangers who have multiple times our resources and we very rarely beat? That Rangers?

If you changed it from Rangers to Livingston I would probably agree with you.

1 minute ago, cazzyy said:

 

Rangers? The Rangers who have multiple times our resources and we very rarely beat? That Rangers?

If you changed it from Rangers to Livingston I would probably agree with you.

Not sure what that has to do with anything in the context of what I wrote. Or are we now just accepting defeat routinely. In the event it would be nice if they just posted a statement telling us not to bother before 15,000 of us head through to Hampden!! I presume you are therefore agreeing that Wednesday night is a must win game against Livingston?! 

6 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The last paragraph is a fair one in the sense that attracting managers to Scotland isn’t easy.

 

But if your answer to that is ‘just appoint a lowland league coach’ then as a board, you’re part of the problem.

 

The Budge regime are an embarrassment

3 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Up until this summer I've always been supportive and tried to make excuses etc but appointing a yts experiment to learn on the job changed my mind tbh.

The amount of money we've thrown down the river paying of huge mistakes is indefensible Cathro and his hippy partner , Levein , Stendal and his team. Levein , Robbie and McCulloch after months earlier giving them new 3 year contracts and it's inevitable Naismith gonna be out the door at some point soon and that's before we even mention the amount of money wasted on some amount of absolute shite players

Was more thinking about what next tbh. I actually thought I was on the thread about the board so apologies but all threads are much the same anyway. 
 

The board won’t go for a rookie if Naismith gets sacked. 

50 minutes ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

You can call for change whilst also being "measured and patient". The two are not mutually exclusive. Not every "happy clapper" is measured and patient and not every "moaning faced *****" is shouting for everyone at the club to be sacked, there is far too much nuance for that to be the case. 

 

I am fully aware that things could be worse, but you haven't provided the full context. We also have one solitary home league win so far this season. The entire managerial set up at the start of this season was amateurish. The board's track record for football decisions is looking increasingly poor - which hardly comes as a surprise when there is not a single person with previous experience of running a football club. Aside from all that, just look at the team! The recruitment has been extremely hit or miss. People bang on about additional revenue streams, developing players and player trading is one of our most lucrative options when it comes to bringing money into the club, but we are massively underperforming in this area. You can't possibly feel inspired watching this current team play? As many have alluded to it feels like a chore at the moment. There are very few visible signs of progress. It is only natural for people to ponder if this coaching team is out of it's depth when we regularly fail at the very fundamentals of football. And it is only natural to consider how the board went about making this decision. 

 

Just because someone isn't displaying sage levels of patience when it comes to the footballing departments performance doesn't make their opinion any less valid. People are trying to be proactive. We have already suffered in the past by not acting quickly enough. 

 

I don't have the time to read through hundreds of posts cherry picking specific ones of people accepting mediocracy. It is a general feeling I guage from many fans that I know personally and indirectly. We are never going to improve if we already believe we are meeting expectations. It really is as simple as that. 

You don’t have the time or it doesn’t exist ? You said our fanbase accept failure and mediocrity. I’d challenge anyone to go along to Tynecastle and think this is the case. 
 

No one is saying we are bubbling along nicely. It’s very clear improvements on the football side need to be made. As far as I can see the people who are getting things right off the park are changing as they try to get things off the park heading in the same direction. It hasn’t worked but as long as they recognise this and take steps to change it I personally feel we don’t have to sack everyone on the football side. If the board are sitting there thinking everything is rosey then they clearly have to go, I don’t believe they are though. On the coaching side it may take SN a couple of windows to get things right also. Personally I think he can and for me still deserves a little more time. Right now is miles away from being good enough though and if there isn’t an almost instant change in what we see I don’t think we will ever find out. It’s a real shame we have so many injuries to so many important players. Something that seems to be haunting us regardless of who is in charge. 

7 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

Not sure what that has to do with anything in the context of what I wrote. Or are we now just accepting defeat routinely. In the event it would be nice if they just posted a statement telling us not to bother before 15,000 of us head through to Hampden!! I presume you are therefore agreeing that Wednesday night is a must win game against Livingston?! 

Not a must win as such but certainly if we get what you said - smashed.

I like naismith but he shouldn't be our manager yet. IMO we should sack McAvoy get Naismith in his job and bring in a experienced guy that can teach Naismith and steady the ship.

28 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

There is not a chance in hell that our board will be prepared to appoint someone at that sort notice. They’re clueless and incompetent. If it’s not Naiclue then it will be Fox, which is just as bad.

 

Or potentially Snoreson, which would be funny just to destroy what’s left of Budge’s credibility 

Please stop these puns on surnames. They are chronic.

2 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

I like naismith but he shouldn't be our manager yet. IMO we should sack McAvoy get Naismith in his job and bring in a experienced guy that can teach Naismith and steady the ship.

That's what we should have done in the first place to be fair although not sure SN would have accepted that.

1 minute ago, Sir PH said:

Please stop these puns on surnames. They are chronic.

Need to think of one for McKinley.

Maybe McDonald’s.

SN talking about how things have not been great, totally ignoring or willing to admit his subs in the Hibs game were a huge contribution to the draw. Personally can't see how he can turn this around as there doesn't appear to be any signs of improvement, either in the way we play or the tactics/subs being made.

Talking about paying off managers, should things get worse ( as many are predicting ) by waiting it will be harder for the new guy to get us back up and that will be a huge loss in revenue either by missing third or by league and tv money.

Not having any football minded people on the board is a huge mistake for a football club.

4 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Need to think of one for McKinley.

 

Maybe McDonald’s.

I’m sure you’ve already got Foxsake prepared for any future eventuality.

2 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

I like naismith but he shouldn't be our manager yet. IMO we should sack McAvoy get Naismith in his job and bring in a experienced guy that can teach Naismith and steady the ship.

Thing with that is, when do we know if Naisy is ready or not? Obviously more coaching experience would be very valuable but gauging when he'd be the right man to take the reigns again would be difficult. What would be the criteria? because winning the B league is ultimately the highest and only thing he'd be able to achieve. Say he does that after a few seasons would that then make him qualified to take over? I cannot imagine many would be happy with that. If anything he'd leave and go take a managers job elsewhere most likely at a smaller club.

If Naisy is sacked as head coach I can't see him ever being in charge here again.

4 minutes ago, cazzyy said:

 

That's what we should have done in the first place to be fair although not sure SN would have accepted that.

We shouldn't let 1 person dictate to the club especially a guy who's going for his 1st job. We're far too soft, it should be a take it or leave it offer. 

I wonder how much we've wasted on crap managers and crap players in the last 10 years.

8 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

 

 

We shouldn't let 1 person dictate to the club especially a guy who's going for his 1st job. We're far too soft, it should be a take it or leave it offer. 

We didn't let him dictate, we offered him the job and he accepted it. 

8 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

I wonder how much we've wasted on crap managers and crap players in the last 10 years.

Millions buddy but they don't give a flying fcuk because it's us who pays it while they get paid for ****ing up

1 minute ago, Chimp said:

 

Thing with that is, when do we know if Naisy is ready or not? Obviously more coaching experience would be very valuable but gauging when he'd be the right man to take the reigns again would be difficult. What would be the criteria? because winning the B league is ultimately the highest and only thing he'd be able to achieve. Say he does that after a few seasons would that then make him qualified to take over? I cannot imagine many would be happy with that. If anything he'd leave and go take a managers job elsewhere most likely at a smaller club.

 

If Naisy is sacked as head coach I can't see him ever being in charge here again.

He's taken too big a step to soon. He seems to have shat the bed a bit with the style of play and how he wants us to attack, I dunno if its how the board want us to play or if its just inexperience but we're back to the pish we had before. Winning a league with the B team and a few years under someone decent would give him experience and confidence to stick with the style of play he said he wanted to play and did at the end of last season. I think we could all take the losses if we played on the front foot.