How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

If only the separatists could use the same Seville calculator they use for their marches when the votes are actually cast... 

Scots voted independence, remain and SNP. Your English handlers helped you and your fellow Brits born in Scotland achieve the Union, Brexit and a Tory government. Enjoy it while you  can, because soft no voters can now see, thro Brexit, that unions aren't as important to the British as they made out.  Scotland!!! can trade with the world and Europe after all. It's not this big deal unionists made it out to be. Freedom of goods and movement with the entire world!!!!! Except England, as they don't want to trade with the big bad indywindyScottish. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by ri Alban

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Scots voted independence, remain and SNP. Your English handlers helped you and your fellow Brits born in Scotland achieve the Union, Brexit and a Tory government. Enjoy it while you  can, because soft no voters can now see, thro Brexit, that unions aren't as important to the British as they made out.  Scotland!!! can trade with the world and Europe after all. It's not this big deal unionists made it out to be. Freedom of goods and movement with the entire world!!!!! Except England, as they don't want to trade with the big bad indywindyScottish. 

 

Replace Brits for Europeans. Tory government for EU Commission. Britain for Europe. And SNP for Tories/UKIP and you've got a Nigel Farage style rant about foreigners being at fault and a nirvana just round the corner if we can only get foreigners out of decision making.

[Sarah O]

Fantastic turn out on Saturday and it proved to be incredibly up lifting. Even if marching changes nothing, it's great to be in amongst so many like-minded individuals in a celebration of local pride from all the corners of Scotland. 

 

Interesting to note only one arrest was made - a guy from the estimate  of only 20 counter demonstrators supporting the continued unification of Scotland to the rest of the UK. He couldn't contain his fury at people with opposing views and hit someone with his flag pole.   

[OmiyaHearts]

2 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Fantastic turn out on Saturday and it proved to be incredibly up lifting. Even if marching changes nothing, it's great to be in amongst so many like-minded individuals in a celebration of local pride from all the corners of Scotland. 

 

Interesting to note only one arrest was made - a guy from the estimate  of only 20 counter demonstrators supporting the continued unification of Scotland to the rest of the UK. He couldn't contain his fury at people with opposing views and hit someone with his flag pole.   

He'd have got a weekender and missed his team win at Ibrox yesterday. Nae luck.

[jambo lodge]

So 20-30 thousand march in Edinburgh, record  numbers attending the SNP Conference in Glasgow yet no discussion allowed on a second referendum. Oh the cultish control of the Murrells but the masses still don't see it.  

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Replace Brits for Europeans. Tory government for EU Commission. Britain for Europe. And SNP for Tories/UKIP and you've got a Nigel Farage style rant about foreigners being at fault and a nirvana just round the corner if we can only get foreigners out of decision making.

 

Spot on. Little Scotlanders - one of the reasons that held me back from voting Yes. I would like us to be grown up as a nation if we gain independence, not act like kids.

[Space Mackerel]

On 06/10/2018 at 22:42, SwindonJambo said:

 

Edinburgh City Council’s estimate was 20,000.

 

I was there, there was way more than 20,000.

 

My figure, I would say about 80,000. I watched the entire march enter the park from Arthurs Seat about 200 yards up.

[Boris]

21 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Spot on. Little Scotlanders - one of the reasons that held me back from voting Yes. I would like us to be grown up as a nation if we gain independence, not act like kids.

 

You need to cut the apron strings if you want to grow up.

 

Don't get me wrong, the sort of rhetoric as quoted by Jambo X2 is nonsense and doesn't help, but if you can see past it...

[Harry Potter]

20 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I was there, there was way more than 20,000.

 

My figure, I would say about 80,000. I watched the entire march enter the park from Arthurs Seat about 200 yards up.

Thought there was over 100, 000 , we will never know the truth

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

No surprises there that the only arrest was a unionist.  Every conviction and court case during the 2014 referendum was a unionist as well.  And we're meant to be the nasty, bitter, hateful ones...

 

There was a single guy with a UJ wrapped over himself at Holyrood. I believe he was serenaded with a chorus of "All by Myself"

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Harry Potter said:

Thought there was over 100, 000 , we will never know the truth

 It could be, it took 2 full hours for everyone to enter the park.

 

The 20,000 figure is absolute gash though. Anyone who believes that is seriously deluding themselves.

[Harry Potter]

8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 It could be, it took 2 full hours for everyone to enter the park.

 

The 20,000 figure is absolute gash though. Anyone who believes that is seriously deluding themselves.

Should have a people count like our dot count ha ha, 

[Space Mackerel]

On 07/10/2018 at 10:05, JamboX2 said:

I seen the photos and social media storm after the event last night and today. I kind of think however there's a huge gaping black hole in the middle of the Indy movement at present, that being a plan and an alternative vision.

 

From the placards and banners you'd think the intent is to establish a nation of either socialist workers or one of intense Scottish patriotism which is narrowly focused on independence at a costs. Which is no different from Brexit at all costs. Frankly that won't appeal to the centrist, middle of the road voters needed to win the independence fight.

 

Let's compare this movement to the major constitutional flash point previously: devolution.

 

There was an intellectual underpinning to the devolution movement which informed their way ahead. The movement had a broad and diverse political and civic leadership which disagreed with on outcomes and debated how best to achieve a platform for whatever change people wanted. This movement had a Labour, Liberal and soft Tory and (unaffiliated) nationalist tinge to it which was added to by trade unions, charities, churches and other groups. The movement had weight of breadth and depth of opinion. Not just the SNP in the lead but a wider societal group which people of all persuasions could buy into. AUOB appeared to be a load of saltires and a demand for an Indy now and predominant political hue was the SNP.

 

Devolution brought about the political but long lasting Claim of Right. An intellectual underpinning to the Constitutional Convention which drew up a blueprint for what Scottish devolution would look like. Where's the corresponding cross-society convention? Again we've had a spell of assemblies from the SNP. We've had a poorly received economic analysis. But there's never been a real attempt to set out how the yes movement truly see things set out and operating. Fairness and equality are mere words. How you intend to achieve these things via laws and constitutions another. And yet beyond a watered down Scotland Act that the government prepared in 2013 there's been little done here. Creating a vacuous cause which can be filled with empty platitudes and merely saying what you're against, not for. And (dangerously) the response to questions about the movements aims of "it'll be decided at a later date". 

 

It lacks a narrative for all people to buy into. It's narrowly focused on its already converted base - a seemingly international failing of politics at present. But Catalan solidarity, calls for a United Ireland and Free Palestine won't win the vote should it come. 

 

As an outsider looking in it appeared to be naked patriotism. The loons in the counter demo would be better staying away from protesting as it does as much to their cause as these AUOB marches do the yes cause. 

 

What I don't get is how the SNP are immune from criticism here - and the Greens to an extent. Keith Brown was one of those leading the march chanting he wants independence now. Yet his party's leadership has consistently danced on the head of a pin since the 2017 General Election on this issue. Which - to me - suggests a lack of conviction and readiness to go to the people on it. Which is in part because they've done 0 ground work to open up their constitutional goal beyond their party - a failing of all Yes Parties imo. Why isn't RISE attending the STUC and calling for Yes? Where's the Greens asking environmental groups for their input on the benefits of Yes to climate change and energy security? 

 

At present the whole thing just seems empty beyond rhetoric. It was a well attended and organised display. But I don't think it's got independence ant closer nor convinced those still undecided or no. Simply put it's a cheerier form of Brexit at the moment: vacuous of a defining and unifying cause beyond itself.

And this readers, is why the Labour party in Scotland are 3rd on 21%.

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

On 07/10/2018 at 00:45, Janbo1874 said:

This is apparently todays march organiser.

A see you jimmy hat ?

Christ its bad enough they believe in Brigadoon and take Braveheart as gospel but Russ Abbot as a cultural touchstone?

Here's a quid now feck off and get a life and leave us to get on with ours.

 

On 07/10/2018 at 02:07, frankblack said:

 

I was drinking in Platform 5 today - thought I would be far enough away from the cretins but no - a group of them appeared later in the afternoon.  They looked utterly ridiculous.

 

I am not sure exactly what point they think they are making but a march on the parliament where their party is ruling is hardly going to increase their following nationwide.

 

On 07/10/2018 at 08:00, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Ffs the boy is a ****ing parody. What an absolute cretin.  Catalan flag in the background. What are they about, I mean seriously. It is Green Brigade causes. There is even an Irish Tricolore waving about there.

 

I do not care about Catelonia or Palestine. It s not my fight. Why do they insist on peddling this on our doorstep. My hatred level for these people is through the roof. However keep up the good work you cretinous letches as with every Green Brigade march you damage your 'cause' more.

 

On 07/10/2018 at 10:25, manaliveits105 said:

 

On 07/10/2018 at 10:26, manaliveits105 said:

how could we say no ?

 

On 07/10/2018 at 11:07, jack D and coke said:

Why does it have to organised by a dickhead like this ffs? I’m not against indy and would likely vote for it but this does the movement a lot of damage. 

Its actually ****ing hilarious tbh  

Like a lot of these things it’s actually like they’re at the wind up. 

 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

You need to cut the apron strings if you want to grow up.

 

Don't get me wrong, the sort of rhetoric as quoted by Jambo X2 is nonsense and doesn't help, but if you can see past it...

 

That's a fair point, Boris. It just concerns me to see so much jingoistic crap thrown around.

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Why are you so angry? Oh right there were women there. 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Nae chance of a smile from your manky mob of filth. Face all squashed up with bitter rage against everyone. 

 

8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

 

If you 2 are the people, thank feck I'm not. 

 

8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Scots voted independence, remain and SNP. Your English handlers helped you and your fellow Brits born in Scotland achieve the Union, Brexit and a Tory government. Enjoy it while you  can, because soft no voters can now see, thro Brexit, that unions aren't as important to the British as they made out.  Scotland!!! can trade with the world and Europe after all. It's not this big deal unionists made it out to be. Freedom of goods and movement with the entire world!!!!! Except England, as they don't want to trade with the big bad indywindyScottish. 

 

What a seething mess you are.

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

That's a fair point, Boris. It just concerns me to see so much jingoistic crap thrown around.

 

I don't disagree with you.  It can be done without.

[frankblack]

13 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure there is some point to your post, but I am struggling to see it.

 

The SNP losers I saw on Saturday disrupt my drinking looked more like this:

 

 

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

 

 

 

 

What a seething mess you are.

 

Keep winding him up, he will get himself banned ... again.

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

 

The SNP losers I saw on Saturday disrupt my drinking looked more like this:

 

 

 

 

Did ye, aye? 

 

Dinnae greet, you'll still be Scottish after independence. 

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

And this readers, is why the Labour party in Scotland are 3rd on 21%.

 

 

 

If only Labour would attempt to apply a brain to anything. It's for not thinking about things meaningfully which have got them there.

 

Nice deflection though. Why has Keith Brown been allowed to attend AUOB marches and demand independence now and yet goes back to his Depute Leadership post and do nothing about it? 

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Keep winding him up, he will get himself banned ... again.

 

He winds himself up.  He is raging all day every day. He is simply lucky people look on and laugh, all he seems to do is post insults to people.

 

[frankblack]

On 07/10/2018 at 10:05, JamboX2 said:

I seen the photos and social media storm after the event last night and today. I kind of think however there's a huge gaping black hole in the middle of the Indy movement at present, that being a plan and an alternative vision.

 

From the placards and banners you'd think the intent is to establish a nation of either socialist workers or one of intense Scottish patriotism which is narrowly focused on independence at a costs. Which is no different from Brexit at all costs. Frankly that won't appeal to the centrist, middle of the road voters needed to win the independence fight.

 

Let's compare this movement to the major constitutional flash point previously: devolution.

 

There was an intellectual underpinning to the devolution movement which informed their way ahead. The movement had a broad and diverse political and civic leadership which disagreed with on outcomes and debated how best to achieve a platform for whatever change people wanted. This movement had a Labour, Liberal and soft Tory and (unaffiliated) nationalist tinge to it which was added to by trade unions, charities, churches and other groups. The movement had weight of breadth and depth of opinion. Not just the SNP in the lead but a wider societal group which people of all persuasions could buy into. AUOB appeared to be a load of saltires and a demand for an Indy now and predominant political hue was the SNP.

 

Devolution brought about the political but long lasting Claim of Right. An intellectual underpinning to the Constitutional Convention which drew up a blueprint for what Scottish devolution would look like. Where's the corresponding cross-society convention? Again we've had a spell of assemblies from the SNP. We've had a poorly received economic analysis. But there's never been a real attempt to set out how the yes movement truly see things set out and operating. Fairness and equality are mere words. How you intend to achieve these things via laws and constitutions another. And yet beyond a watered down Scotland Act that the government prepared in 2013 there's been little done here. Creating a vacuous cause which can be filled with empty platitudes and merely saying what you're against, not for. And (dangerously) the response to questions about the movements aims of "it'll be decided at a later date". 

 

It lacks a narrative for all people to buy into. It's narrowly focused on its already converted base - a seemingly international failing of politics at present. But Catalan solidarity, calls for a United Ireland and Free Palestine won't win the vote should it come. 

 

As an outsider looking in it appeared to be naked patriotism. The loons in the counter demo would be better staying away from protesting as it does as much to their cause as these AUOB marches do the yes cause. 

 

What I don't get is how the SNP are immune from criticism here - and the Greens to an extent. Keith Brown was one of those leading the march chanting he wants independence now. Yet his party's leadership has consistently danced on the head of a pin since the 2017 General Election on this issue. Which - to me - suggests a lack of conviction and readiness to go to the people on it. Which is in part because they've done 0 ground work to open up their constitutional goal beyond their party - a failing of all Yes Parties imo. Why isn't RISE attending the STUC and calling for Yes? Where's the Greens asking environmental groups for their input on the benefits of Yes to climate change and energy security? 

 

At present the whole thing just seems empty beyond rhetoric. It was a well attended and organised display. But I don't think it's got independence ant closer nor convinced those still undecided or no. Simply put it's a cheerier form of Brexit at the moment: vacuous of a defining and unifying cause beyond itself.

 

A very good post which I agree with.

 

The fact of the matter is that until the nationalists can come up with a proposal that has a solid economic base and deals with sharing UK debt, currency, trade, and employment for businesses that are currently split through the UK.

 

The last Indy referendum had zero consideration on how this will be achieved, and the white paper using Oil revenues was a complete work of fiction that fell apart within two years after the oil price collapsed.   A lot of previous Yes voters as I was won't trust the SNP again.

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

Did ye, aye? 

 

Dinnae greet, you'll still be Scottish after independence. 

 

I'll be long deid before that happens.

[jambo lodge]

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I'm sure there is some point to your post, but I am struggling to see it.

 

The SNP losers I saw on Saturday disrupt my drinking looked more like this:

 

 

Just been watching the BBC lunchtime news...…...my son " do any normal people go the the SNP conference" Their leader at Westminster Ian Blackford has clearly been enjoying too many dinners at Westminster judging from his increasing girth.

[Space Mackerel]

17 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

If only Labour would attempt to apply a brain to anything. It's for not thinking about things meaningfully which have got them there.

 

Nice deflection though. Why has Keith Brown been allowed to attend AUOB marches and demand independence now and yet goes back to his Depute Leadership post and do nothing about it? 

 

If you watched Marr yesterday then NS explained where they were with Indy 2. 

Itll be on iplayer no doubt. 

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

If you watched Marr yesterday then NS explained where they were with Indy 2. 

Itll be on iplayer no doubt. 

 

She also said that she would support a people's vote on Brexit and the Tories told her she ain't getting one, just like they told you about your Indy 2 referendum.

 

Once in a lifetime decision, remember.

 

[Space Mackerel]

21 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I'll be long deid before that happens.

 

You seem to be posting a lot on a thread that doesn’t concern you then.

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You seem to be posting a lot on a thread that doesn’t concern you then.

 

I do have an interest in fiction.

[JamboX2]

58 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

A very good post which I agree with.

 

The fact of the matter is that until the nationalists can come up with a proposal that has a solid economic base and deals with sharing UK debt, currency, trade, and employment for businesses that are currently split through the UK.

 

The last Indy referendum had zero consideration on how this will be achieved, and the white paper using Oil revenues was a complete work of fiction that fell apart within two years after the oil price collapsed.   A lot of previous Yes voters as I was won't trust the SNP again.

 

Why jump the gun to economics when they've never really ever spelt out how they see:

 

1. Our future relationship with the UK

2. Been clear on our future relationship with the EU (since the Brexit vote), nor

3. Set out their own vision of how the nation is to be run.

 

The SCC on devolution had All that drawn up before Blair took office in '97 and before the referendum.

[JamboX2]

46 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

If you watched Marr yesterday then NS explained where they were with Indy 2. 

Itll be on iplayer no doubt. 

 

I did. And was it not:

 

1. Depends on the Brexit deal - so if they get what they want - SM/CU - then there is no referendum or

2. Depends on the outcome of a people's vote - remain win no vote, leave win a vote.

 

Not entirely a straightforward answer to the people at their protest.

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Why jump the gun to economics when they've never really ever spelt out how they see:

 

1. Our future relationship with the UK

2. Been clear on our future relationship with the EU (since the Brexit vote), nor

3. Set out their own vision of how the nation is to be run.

 

The SCC on devolution had All that drawn up before Blair took office in '97 and before the referendum.

 

Yep.  Basically - all the things they are beating the UK government over with Brexit negotiations they are guilty of with their Independence agenda.

 

Essentially the proposal for Indy 2 is to cross our fingers and hope for the best.

Edited October 8, 2018 by frankblack

[Space Mackerel]

9 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I did. And was it not:

 

1. Depends on the Brexit deal - so if they get what they want - SM/CU - then there is no referendum or

2. Depends on the outcome of a people's vote - remain win no vote, leave win a vote.

 

Not entirely a straightforward answer to the people at their protest.

 

You Unionists are desperate for this Indy 2 for some reason? Not sure why. I’m quite chilled. 

 

Im sitting back, laughing my arse off watching the U.K. die day by day. It’s tremendous. Better than winning in 2014. 

[JamboX2]

8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You Unionists are desperate for this Indy 2 for some reason? Not sure why. I’m quite chilled. 

 

Im sitting back, laughing my arse off watching the U.K. die day by day. It’s tremendous. Better than winning in 2014. 

 

I wouldn't even class myself as a unionist. I don't really care enough anymore but I do find it interesting all the same. 

 

Perhaps you're right and it's better not to interrupt your opponent whilst they make mistakes (which they are). But imo that alone isn't enough and no robust reasoning will result in a post-win mess like we have now.

[frankblack]

15 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You Unionists are desperate for this Indy 2 for some reason? Not sure why. I’m quite chilled. 

 

Im sitting back, laughing my arse off watching the U.K. die day by day. It’s tremendous. Better than winning in 2014. 

 

When exactly do you think you will get an Indy 2 Referendum?  It is clear the tories ain't going to authorise it during this parliamentary term or in a post Brexit situation while they are in power.  I doubt Labour would be interested in approving one if they gain power at the next GE, as there will still be a lot going on post-Brexit.

[jambo lodge]

Nicola accusing BBC of employing Ruth Davidson during the SNP conference. The very pregnant Ruth confirms she has been in her parliamentary office all day. SNP has more victim mentality than Celtic.

[frankblack]

19 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Nicola accusing BBC of employing Ruth Davidson during the SNP conference. The very pregnant Ruth confirms she has been in her parliamentary office all day. SNP has more victim mentality than Celtic.

 

I think the pressure is getting to Sturgeon.  The cracks in the SNP will show soon enough once Alex starts his court case against the Scottish Government.

[Boris]

Interesting to see on this thread the usual conflation between wishing independence and love for the SNP.

 

Whilst I understand that in the majority of cases those who support independence are, one would imagine, SNP supporters (members even!), but this fails to understand those who wish independence, but have no real care with the well being of the SNP.  

 

Similarly to paint all unionists as UJ waving Tories would be wrong, as it would to project them as UJ waving Labour people, not to mention the odd liberal here and there.  

 

Just as the Unionist "side" is a coalition across the political spectrum, so to is the independence movement.  Granted, the SNP hold a lot of sway in that, and for many are seen as the natural vehicle, but politics is much more nuanced than some of the pitiful "banter" that is being passed off on this thread.  From all sides.

 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

Interesting to see on this thread the usual conflation between wishing independence and love for the SNP.

 

Whilst I understand that in the majority of cases those who support independence are, one would imagine, SNP supporters (members even!), but this fails to understand those who wish independence, but have no real care with the well being of the SNP.  

 

Similarly to paint all unionists as UJ waving Tories would be wrong, as it would to project them as UJ waving Labour people, not to mention the odd liberal here and there.  

 

Just as the Unionist "side" is a coalition across the political spectrum, so to is the independence movement.  Granted, the SNP hold a lot of sway in that, and for many are seen as the natural vehicle, but politics is much more nuanced than some of the pitiful "banter" that is being passed off on this thread.  From all sides.

 

 

Tommy Sheridan was on the stage on Saturday getting all the socialists telt to vote SNP. 

[Boris]

7 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Tommy Sheridan was on the stage on Saturday getting all the socialists telt to vote SNP. 

 

Understandable, as it is obvious that the SNP are the conduit to independence.

 

What those who criticse the SNP fail to understand is that come independence the political landscape is rebooted.

[Space Mackerel]

9 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Understandable, as it is obvious that the SNP are the conduit to independence.

 

What those who criticse the SNP fail to understand is that come independence the political landscape is rebooted.

 

Exactly Boris. Starting off with a complete blank sheet. 

[jambo lodge]

14 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Understandable, as it is obvious that the SNP are the conduit to independence.

 

What those who criticse the SNP fail to understand is that come independence the political landscape is rebooted.

My view is that it would take decades to change with the agent of change the SNP continuing to be in "control"

[jambo lodge]

26 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Tommy Sheridan was on the stage on Saturday getting all the socialists telt to vote SNP. 

Speaks volumes of the rag tag and bobtail who attended.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Exactly Boris. Starting off with a complete blank sheet. 

 

Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives & the Scottish Lib Dems will have to be totally seperate from their brethren down south, as it would be complete political suicide if any of them still took orders from party HQ in London, so not only do they need to be seperate but they need to be seen as being so.

Of course this would allow each party to adapt and adjust to the particular challenges which Scotland would face post-independence, but broadly speaking Scottish Labour could still be largely socialist minded, Scottish Conservatives would still be Tories but Scottish Tories and the Scottish Lib Dems would continue to be an irrelevance. ?

[lauriesrank]

Always gonna be a yes, no ifs or buts.

 

 

[frankblack]

32 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Understandable, as it is obvious that the SNP are the conduit to independence.

 

What those who criticse the SNP fail to understand is that come independence the political landscape is rebooted.

 

That is just a cop out to avoid having a detailed plan of how to manage an independent Scotland in terms of the key issues mentioned above.

 

In the same way as Brexit, you can't just change everything and run away.  The middle class voters will never buy into such a vague plan without costed facts and figures.  The tories are planning to hang around post Brexit, yet the SNP plan to abdicate responsibility.

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives & the Scottish Lib Dems will have to be totally seperate from their brethren down south, as it would be complete political suicide if any of them still took orders from party HQ in London, so not only do they need to be seperate but they need to be seen as being so.

Of course this would allow each party to adapt and adjust to the particular challenges which Scotland would face post-independence, but broadly speaking Scottish Labour could still be largely socialist minded, Scottish Conservatives would still be Tories but Scottish Tories and the Scottish Lib Dems would continue to be an irrelevance. ?

 

Can't argue with any of that Jimbo.

 

By the way, there is no such thing as Scottish Labour or Scottish Tories, they take their orders from higher above, they are just branch managers of their Westminster overlords.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Space Mackerel

[Thunderstruck]

35 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That is just a cop out to avoid having a detailed plan of how to manage an independent Scotland in terms of the key issues mentioned above.

 

In the same way as Brexit, you can't just change everything and run away.  The middle class voters will never buy into such a vague plan without costed facts and figures.  The tories are planning to hang around post Brexit, yet the SNP plan to abdicate responsibility.

 

Couldn’t agree more and would add that the whole “SNP won’t be around after independence” line is also a growing and tacit acceptance that their performance in government is pretty woeful and hardly helpful to the “cause”.

 

 

 

[i8hibsh]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

Interesting to see on this thread the usual conflation between wishing independence and love for the SNP.

 

Whilst I understand that in the majority of cases those who support independence are, one would imagine, SNP supporters (members even!), but this fails to understand those who wish independence, but have no real care with the well being of the SNP.  

 

Similarly to paint all unionists as UJ waving Tories would be wrong, as it would to project them as UJ waving Labour people, not to mention the odd liberal here and there.  

 

Just as the Unionist "side" is a coalition across the political spectrum, so to is the independence movement.  Granted, the SNP hold a lot of sway in that, and for many are seen as the natural vehicle, but politics is much more nuanced than some of the pitiful "banter" that is being passed off on this thread.  From all sides.

 

 

 

Good post Big B.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Understandable, as it is obvious that the SNP are the conduit to independence.

 

What those who criticse the SNP fail to understand is that come independence the political landscape is rebooted.

 

See are they? The SNP have been boldest in government (and best) when pulled about by opposition parties - Greens, Labour, Liberal etc. In Catalonia the Independence movement is a broad coalition of different voices. Right to left. Would it not be better for the movement if it was broader and showed different visions from right to left?

 

My point being you've got a one horse race for Indy in the SNP. If they lose their popular non-yes support to govern then the hopes of the yes movement are politically broken. After all the SNP win elections because non-yes voters vote for them.