Genuine question : are Leveins days numbered?

[Craigieboy]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

FoH are alteady on the Hearts board. Are their reps clamouring for Craig to be dismissed?

 

Come on Dave. 

 

You know full well that these these guys will just be nodding and agreeing. They’ve basically no say. Certainly not over decisions like that which will be rightly made by the owner of the club. 

[davemclaren]

Just now, Craigieboy said:

 

Come on Dave. 

 

You know full well that these these guys will just be nodding and agreeing. They’ve basically no say. Certainly not over decisions like that which will be rightly made by the owner of the club. 

Will things really be much different in the future? What makes you think the board will follow what you believe to be popular sentiment. Most fans won’t get involved to any degree imo. Anyway, a different debate. ?

[wavydavy]

2 hours ago, Boab said:

 

The problem is you gave two points. I'm unsure as to which one to grasp !

 

It's black friday have two for one.

[Craigieboy]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Will things really be much different in the future? What makes you think the board will follow what you believe to be popular sentiment. Most fans won’t get involved to any degree imo. Anyway, a different debate. ?

 

In my opinion, post sentiment is irrelevant on this issue. 

 

Its simply a case that the DOF system we have in place isn’t working. It needs replaced. 

[wavydavy]

21 hours ago, Thomaso said:

 

From memory Levein took the Scotland job in December 2009 - before the Scottish Cup DU won had started.

 

He gets credit for building the team, however it was Peter Houston who took them through that winning cup run.  Who knows if DU would have won the cup under Leveins brand of negative cup football.

 

He also gets credit for persuading Thomson senior to spend money they could not really afford on bringing in a host of players. The club are still trying to pay back that money now and Thomson junior is seen as the bad guy because he wants the money paid back to his family who gave the club the loan in the first place.

[davemclaren]

7 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

In my opinion, post sentiment is irrelevant on this issue. 

 

Its simply a case that the DOF system we have in place isn’t working. It needs replaced. 

That’s been your consistent opinion for a while. The point I was trying to make was that, even though that might be the majority opinion within the FoH membership, it won’t necessarily mean it will actually happen, for a variety of reasons.  

[TexasAndy]

24 minutes ago, Erik said:

 

I can assure you, there are PLENTY of folk on here alone who seem to think we ARE immune to certain things.

 

You see it on a daily basis with folk living in the clouds on here.

Based on the fact they are not throwing toys out the pram after every bad result?  That's my point, the assumption that being patient and willing to give things time means head in the cloud!!

[Craigieboy]

13 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That’s been your consistent opinion for a while. The point I was trying to make was that, even though that might be the majority opinion within the FoH membership, it won’t necessarily mean it will actually happen, for a variety of reasons.  

 

Well then they’ll be silly to ignore the majority opinion then. If that indeed happens then I can see people stopping their FOH subs. And who could blame them if the FOH board refuses to acknowledge what needs changing?

[Bazzas right boot]

43 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Well then they’ll be silly to ignore the majority opinion then. If that indeed happens then I can see people stopping their FOH subs. And who could blame them if the FOH board refuses to acknowledge what needs changing?

 

 

If folk are contributing in the hope they can shape appointments, transfer etc I fear they will be dissapionted, may as well stop contributing now.

 

Even within foh contributers there will be a divided opinion, so unsure how that would even work in the first place.

[Craigieboy]

1 hour ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

If folk are contributing in the hope they can shape appointments, transfer etc I fear they will be dissapionted, may as well stop contributing now.

 

Even within foh contributers there will be a divided opinion, so unsure how that would even work in the first place.

 

I don’t think people are contributing with that hope. 

 

But I do think the structure of the club in the future is something that will need to be looked at. 

 

Would it be right for FOH to just blindly continue with a management set up that isn’t achieving results and that has a really poor record in the area of recruitment? 

[davemclaren]

19 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

I don’t think people are contributing with that hope. 

 

But I do think the structure of the club in the future is something that will need to be looked at. 

 

Would it be right for FOH to just blindly continue with a management set up that isn’t achieving results and that has a really poor record in the area of recruitment? 

Depends if it is the structure or the individuals that are the root cause. The management structure you favour hasn’t always been successful either. 

[Bazzas right boot]

21 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

I don’t think people are contributing with that hope. 

 

But I do think the structure of the club in the future is something that will need to be looked at. 

 

Would it be right for FOH to just blindly continue with a management set up that isn’t achieving results and that has a really poor record in the area of recruitment? 

Yes, is the simple answer.

 

This mgt set up also got promoted, ended up third and has overhauled the entire Infrastructure. Fans are very reactive.

 

Changing manager every time we get beat of hibs or fans go in the Huff isn't an option.

 

What influence do you expect being 1  of 8000  foh.contributers?

Do we give each member a vote or one/ ten pound.

 

Someone that contributes £20  have the same influence as some who contributes £100,..£1000

 

Do we have an  election to decide manager, players, tactics, subs?

 

What do you expect?

 

Foh is voluntary. Do it or don't.

 

 

 

[Craigieboy]

25 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

Yes, is the simple answer.

 

This mgt set up also got promoted, ended up third and has overhauled the entire Infrastructure. Fans are very reactive.

 

Changing manager every time we get beat of hibs or fans go in the Huff isn't an option.

 

What influence do you expect being 1  of 8000  foh.contributers?

Do we give each member a vote or one/ ten pound.

 

Someone that contributes £20  have the same influence as some who contributes £100,..£1000

 

Do we have an  election to decide manager, players, tactics, subs?

 

What do you expect?

 

Foh is voluntary. Do it or don't.

 

 

 

 

Aaaaah, the old and very tired “do you want a say on match day tactics” argument. 

 

Bit of a strawman argument that one really. Of course the fans dont want or expect a say on those matters and to suggest such is just ****ing stupid. 

 

But if the club is fan owned then those fans will rightly want a say in the BIG decisions that will be made. 

 

I really don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that FOH members may be balloted on BIG matters like club structure, future stadium redevelopment etc, etc. 

 

As for your remarks which relate to the suggestion that the current management set up saw us out of the championship therefore should be given time now; I think it’s been given time. Quite a sufficient amount. Moreover, it will (unfortunately in my opinion) get even more time, even more transfer windows to affect the appropriate changes. History says it’ll fail. 

 

I challenge anyone to endorse the DOF model that we currently have after a further two or three years of it being in place. 

 

I cant see it being successful based on the last two years goings on. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Aaaaah, the old and very tired “do you want a say on match day tactics” argument. 

 

Bit of a strawman argument that one really. Of course the fans dont want or expect a say on those matters and to suggest such is just ****ing stupid. 

 

But if the club is fan owned then those fans will rightly want a say in the BIG decisions that will be made. 

 

I really don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that FOH members may be balloted on BIG matters like club structure, future stadium redevelopment etc, etc. 

 

As for your remarks which relate to the suggestion that the current management set up saw us out of the championship therefore should be given time now; I think it’s been given time. Quite a sufficient amount. Moreover, it will (unfortunately in my opinion) get even more time, even more transfer windows to affect the appropriate changes. History says it’ll fail. 

 

I challenge anyone to endorse the DOF model that we currently have after a further two or three years of it being in place. 

 

I cant see it being successful based on the last two years goings on. 

We don't have that structure any more, we had a head coach under a DoF, now we have a manager

[Craigieboy]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

We don't have that structure any more, we had a head coach under a DoF, now we have a manager

 

Who is still fulfilling the DOF role. 

[merrymac]

5 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Aaaaah, the old and very tired “do you want a say on match day tactics” argument. 

 

Bit of a strawman argument that one really. Of course the fans dont want or expect a say on those matters and to suggest such is just ****ing stupid. 

 

But if the club club is fan owned then those fans will rightly want a set in the BIG decisions that will be made. 

 

I really don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that FOH members may be balloted on BIG  matters like club structure, future stadium redevelopment etc, etc. 

 

As for your remarks which relate to the suggestion that the current management set up saw us out of the championship therefore should be given time now; I think it’s been given time. Quite a sufficient amount. Moreover, it will (unfortunately in my opinion) get even more time, even more transfer windows to affect the appropriate changes. History says it’ll fail. 

 

I challenge anyone to endorse the DOF model that we currently have after a further two or three years of it being in place. 

 

I cant see it being successful based on the last two years goings on. 

Agreed. Surely the club has already admitted that the long term structure which was put in place has already failed. But to replace that we have a part time DOF and a part time manager. Not exactly workable for a club of our status.

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Aaaaah, the old and very tired “do you want a say on match day tactics” argument. 

 

Bit of a strawman argument that one really. Of course the fans dont want or expect a say on those matters and to suggest such is just ****ing stupid. 

 

But if the club club is fan owned then those fans will rightly want a set in the BIG decisions that will be made. 

 

I really don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that FOH members may be balloted on BIG  matters like club structure, future stadium redevelopment etc, etc. 

 

As for your remarks which relate to the suggestion that the current management set up saw us out of the championship therefore should be given time now; I think it’s been given time. Quite a sufficient amount. Moreover, it will (unfortunately in my opinion) get even more time, even more transfer windows to affect the appropriate changes. History says it’ll fail. 

 

I challenge anyone to endorse the DOF model that we currently have after a further two or three years of it being in place. 

 

I cant see it being successful based on the last two years goings on. 

Is it the DoF structure, or the appointed DoF? 

Last two years have been rotten, but it seemed to work initially. Has it therefore failed? 

The Cathro gamble failed spectacularly and we are now where we are. An experienced first team manager is needed, arguably we have that now but could/should we have done better? 

My only concern is that by ripping up the DoF structure, we potentially risk the academy. 

Obviously first team affairs are paramount, but there are other important aspects to the running of the footballing side of the club.  

[Bazzas right boot]

14 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Aaaaah, the old and very tired “do you want a say on match day tactics” argument. 

 

Bit of a strawman argument that one really. Of course the fans dont want or expect a say on those matters and to suggest such is just ****ing stupid. 

 

But if the club is fan owned then those fans will rightly want a say in the BIG decisions that will be made. 

 

I really don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that FOH members may be balloted on BIG matters like club structure, future stadium redevelopment etc, etc. 

 

As for your remarks which relate to the suggestion that the current management set up saw us out of the championship therefore should be given time now; I think it’s been given time. Quite a sufficient amount. Moreover, it will (unfortunately in my opinion) get even more time, even more transfer windows to affect the appropriate changes. History says it’ll fail. 

 

I challenge anyone to endorse the DOF model that we currently have after a further two or three years of it being in place. 

 

I cant see it being successful based on the last two years goings on. 

 

What is your limit then? manager, set up, wages% budgets/ targets......

By going on here, folk will argue over the colour of shite.

 

The thing is even on a ballet you wont get 100% on anything.

 

So say there is a 75%-25% split on a matter, you would go with the 75%, as you said above-  you just ignore the majority of foh subscribers? But in this case it would be ok to ignore 25%/ What if that 25% contributes more money or has one seriously big donor?

 

It terms of alienating the Foh subscribers-, in the above case you may have just lost 25% of your contributions, because their opinion was ignored ( possibly worse than just knowing you are contributing and helping), how many times can you do that before you lose subs, allot?

 

Surely a chair/ candidate will be elected then put on the board, there is no way a democratic system of falling the majority will work, if we went down that route there would be far more in-fighting, annoyed fans and eventually far less subscribers. It would fall apart very quickly.

 

Balloting on things how the money is spent is maybe  wise, These would likely be few and far between- anything else is surely just ridiculous.

 

Also what about the 14k+ season ticket holders, are we saying 8k foh subscribers have more of a say than say a fan that pays his/ her st? There would seem to be around 6k st holders that don't contribute to FoH?

 

The whole thing would fall apart quicker than  Tory/ Dup pact and in all honesty seems to be an excuse to give angry fans a say on matters that are better dealt with the club and elected Chair folk.

[Craigieboy]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

Is it the DoF structure, or the appointed DoF? 

Last two years have been rotten, but it seemed to work initially. Has it therefore failed? 

The Cathro gamble failed spectacularly and we are now where we are. An experienced first team manager is needed, arguably we have that now but could/should we have done better? 

My only concern is that by ripping up the DoF structure, we potentially risk the academy. 

Obviously first team affairs are paramount, but there are other important aspects to the running of the footballing side of the club.  

 

Totally agree. 

 

Perhaps due to things like the academy it’s worth seeing out more time with Levein overseeing everything. Maybe he can turn round first team matters. 

 

In any case, I would assert that even the biggest fans of Levein will find it difficult to imagine him continuing in his role if a further two or three seasons go by (potentially 6 transfer windows) and we end up watching the same overpaid shite players that he had brought in. 

 

 

[God like creature]

I reckon every head coach/ managers days are numbered ,

we as fans can either be short sighted and start complaining about CL now or let him get a transfer window or two under his belt,

(I'm never that keen on the January window,not as many players become available ) ,hearts are awfull ,we can only get better.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Totally agree. 

 

Perhaps due to things like the academy it’s worth seeing out more time with Levein overseeing everything. Maybe he can turn round first team matters. 

 

In any case, I would assert that even the biggest fans of Levein will find it difficult to imagine him continuing in his role if a further two or three seasons go by (potentially 6 transfer windows) and we end up watching the same overpaid shite players that he had brought in. 

 

 

As it stands now, Levein will live or die based on results. January is huge. 

Personally, I don't mind Levein... But results, followed by performances are needed. 

The one niggle is the time wasted after Cathros exit in appointing the new manager. 

[Craigieboy]

4 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

What is your limit then? manager, set up, wages% budgets/ targets......

By going on here, folk will argue over the colour of shite.

 

The thing is even on a ballet you wont get 100% on anything.

 

So say there is a 75%-25% split on a matter, you would go with the 75%, as you said above-  you just ignore the majority of foh subscribers? But in this case it would be ok to ignore 25%/ What if that 25% contributes more money or has one seriously big donor?

 

It terms of alienating the Foh subscribers-, in the above case you may have just lost 25% of your contributions, because their opinion was ignored ( possibly worse than just knowing you are contributing and helping), how many times can you do that before you lose subs, allot?

 

Surely a chair/ candidate will be elected then put on the board, there is no way a democratic system of falling the majority will work, if we went down that route there would be far more in-fighting, annoyed fans and eventually far less subscribers. It would fall apart very quickly.

 

Balloting on things how the money is spent is maybe  wise, These would likely be few and far between- anything else is surely just ridiculous.

 

Also what about the 14k+ season ticket holders, are we saying 8k foh subscribers have more of a say than say a fan that pays his/ her st? There would seem to be around 6k st holders that don't contribute to FoH?

 

The whole thing would fall apart quicker than  Tory/ Dup pact and in all honesty seems to be an excuse to give angry fans a say on matters that are better dealt with the club and elected Chair folk.

 

You raise interesting points. 

 

As I say though, it would be ridiculous for fans to vote on minor matters. That’s not what I’m referring to at all. 

 

A majority one off vote on how FOH subscribers would like the managerial structure to be set up going forward is entirely appropriate in my opinion. 

 

Or do we indeed simply vote in a chairperson & let him/her make that choice?

 

Genuinely just putting this out there. I don’t know what’ll happen. 

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Totally agree. 

 

Perhaps due to things like the academy it’s worth seeing out more time with Levein overseeing everything. Maybe he can turn round first team matters. 

 

In any case, I would assert that even the biggest fans of Levein will find it difficult to imagine him continuing in his role if a further two or three seasons go by (potentially 6 transfer windows) and we end up watching the same overpaid shite players that he had brought in. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, tbh, I think if there isn't an improvement form now on and that continues after January there will be a problem.

 

IMO, he's been tasked with getting a grip of the Cathro mess and will hand over to someone in the summer ( unless he has a stonking return and we end up 2nd/ 3rd). But if we end up 4th/5th and the team has improved in results and football wise I can see him going back to a more behind the scenes role and I'd be in favour of that and appointing a manager. However, I don't think the fans should decide that.

 

If we end up below 6th, I am unsure he will still be with us, although still being the academy director or some such could be an option- completely removed from the 1st team.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Craigieboy said:

 

You raise interesting points. 

 

As I say though, it would be ridiculous for fans to vote on minor matters. That’s not what I’m referring to at all. 

 

A majority one off vote on how FOH subscribers would like the managerial structure to be set up going forward is entirely appropriate in my opinion. 

 

Or do we indeed simply vote in a chairperson & let him/her make that choice?

 

Genuinely just putting this out there. I don’t know what’ll happen. 

 

 

Fair doos, and about the first team/ tactic I was being daft, although some on here would be up for that!

 

The dof model worked the first two years, it didn't the 3rd. You could argue the manager with no dof role is not working atm? ( although early days, imo)

 

What do we do? I'm ****ed if I know!

 

I am more in favour of a manager unless the Dof is a stupidly big name, Alex Ferguson, Wegner, Guillet (sp) , Zidane, Nedved, Giggs etc. Then I can see the appeal that might give the club. We are unlikely to get that big name, so I am unsure we need a dof eps once the infrastructure is in place and we have handed over to fan ownership.

[tolcross lad]

3 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

Yes, tbh, I think if there isn't an improvement form now on and that continues after January there will be a problem.

 

IMO, he's been tasked with getting a grip of the Cathro mess and will hand over to someone in the summer ( unless he has a stonking return and we end up 2nd/ 3rd). But if we end up 4th/5th and the team has improved in results and football wise I can see him going back to a more behind the scenes role and I'd be in favour of that and appointing a manager. However, I don't think the fans should decide that.

 

If we end up below 6th, I am unsure he will still be with us, although still being the academy director or some such could be an option- completely removed from the 1st team.

Arnott is in charge of the Academy.

The Cathro mess is also Leveins mess because he was responsible for Cathro.

Leveins energies should be fully devoted to the first team and he should stand or fall by how he does with the first team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

31 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Who is still fulfilling the DOF role. 

Again, we simply don't have that structure any more though, there is no head coach under a DoF 

[wavydavy]

10 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

Yes, tbh, I think if there isn't an improvement form now on and that continues after January there will be a problem.

 

IMO, he's been tasked with getting a grip of the Cathro mess and will hand over to someone in the summer ( unless he has a stonking return and we end up 2nd/ 3rd). But if we end up 4th/5th and the team has improved in results and football wise I can see him going back to a more behind the scenes role and I'd be in favour of that and appointing a manager. However, I don't think the fans should decide that.

 

If we end up below 6th, I am unsure he will still be with us, although still being the academy director or some such could be an option- completely removed from the 1st team.

 

If we end up below 6th which I think is a distinct possibilty if he can't make any decent signings in January then I don't think it will make any difference to him or Budge. She seems to have utmost confidence in him and short of relegation I believe he will still be here next season.

 

The man is an expert in coming up with what can only really be described as excuses. If he does make some signings in January and they fail to improve the team then he will say that they need time to to gel with their team-mates and that he needs the Summer Transfer Window to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think if he ultimately fails as 1st team coach then he should go from the club completely and not be involved in any aspects whatsoever.

[Craigieboy]

32 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

Fair doos, and about the first team/ tactic I was being daft, although some on here would be up for that!

 

The dof model worked the first two years, it didn't the 3rd. You could argue the manager with no dof role is not working atm? ( although early days, imo)

 

What do we do? I'm ****ed if I know!

 

I am more in favour of a manager unless the Dof is a stupidly big name, Alex Ferguson, Wegner, Guillet (sp) , Zidane, Nedved, Giggs etc. Then I can see the appeal that might give the club. We are unlikely to get that big name, so I am unsure we need a dof eps once the infrastructure is in place and we have handed over to fan ownership.

 

Its my personal opinion that the DOF role is unnecessary in the realms that HMFC operate. That said, I agree it was needed in setting up/rebuilding the club after administration. 

 

I would like a Paulo Sergio type set up where he comes with his trusted coaches and contacts in the game. 

 

As it stands (Cathro era) you’re just paying a middle man. And not a very good one at that. 

 

For the record, I’m definitely not a Levein hater. I like him. I’ve spoken to him a few times and he seems a right Hearts man. He was one of my childhood hero’s. 

 

I would like him to clean up this mess and be successful. I’m just tired of watching this shit and I’m not confident that he will bring in the players needed to radically change things in January. 

 

I would like to be proved wrong. 100%. 

[Beast Boy]

4 hours ago, Thomaso said:

 

First class post and sums up the feelings (and concerns) of very many Hearts fans.

 

And equally is at odds with the feelings of many others.

[Bazzas right boot]

7 minutes ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Its my personal opinion that the DOF role is unnecessary in the realms that HMFC operate. That said, I agree it was needed in setting up/rebuilding the club after administration. 

 

I would like a Paulo Sergio type set up where he comes with his trusted coaches and contacts in the game. 

 

As it stands (Cathro era) you’re just paying a middle man. And not a very good one at that. 

 

For the record, I’m definitely not a Levein hater. I like him. I’ve spoken to him a few times and he seems a right Hearts man. He was one of my childhood hero’s. 

 

I would like him to clean up this mess and be successful. I’m just tired of watching this shit and I’m not confident that he will bring in the players needed to radically change things in January. 

 

I would like to be proved wrong. 100%. 

 

 

I have said that I attribute the success of the first two  ( and a half) to RN and last years debacle to Cathro.

 

I don't give CL praise ( apart from appointing Robbie)  and I do not hold him responsible for the mess Cathro made of the first team, transfers included ( apart from his appointment )

 

Some on here give CL pelters for everything bad, but do not recognize the good he has done for Hearts.

 

With what I said in mind, he has to clear up the Cathro mess, he even admits the team is unbalanced, so it clearly imo, isn't his team. Some think it is, that is another argument and,if it is that case that you hold him responsible for the first team, then after the first two seasons, he deserves a chance to fix it. If it is only his team from when he taken over, then he deserves time to forge his own team. Either way, I can't see an argument for not giving him time . The posters that are over multiple threads some with venomous comments clearly have a personal issue with CL.

 

Cathro was sacked, CL has taken over. seems perfectly logical to me.

 

Many were quoting the likes of Hartley, McCann, Pressley, Houston... in all honesty I shudder at the thought. We now have folk backing Davies on a thread. Tragic doesn't do it justice. Most of these posters were also dancing in the street when RN left us and Cathro taken over. Bump the thread for proof- might be fun.

 

With that in mind, Time to judge him after at least one window and this run of games could very well make or break him and our season.

 

 

The football I agree.

The DoF model, I generally  agree with you as well.

 

 

 

[Beast Boy]

I also happen to think that the Director of Football role is ideal for a club our size. 

[Bazzas right boot]

3 minutes ago, Ryder said:

I also happen to think that the Director of Football role is ideal for a club our size. 

If we're in fan ownership rather than a chairperson it probably makes more sense as well.

 

Need a link between the board and the manager.

 

However, I think we need an experienced head coach/ manager. Don't think folk like Jon Daly are the answer going forward.

 

I'm 50/50 on the set up. It can work well or bad, like any set up.

 

 

[Jingle Bells]

A few need to make the distinction between

 

Levien the excellent Centre Half for the Club

and

Levien the mediocre DOF/Manager.

 

At the end of the day the issue of whether or not he stays on or goes will depend on the number of bums on seats, which in turn will be decided by how good the style of football is that he instructs his team to play.

[Beast Boy]

Just now, BigDave'sHeed said:

If we're in fan ownership rather than a chairperson it probably makes more sense as well.

 

Need a link between the board and the manager.

 

However, I think we need an experienced head coach/ manager. Don't think folk like Jon Daly are the answer going forward.

 

I'm 50/50 on the set up. It can work well or bad, like any set up.

 

 

 

I’d probably prefer a more experienced head coach too, to be fair. Purely on the DoF role though, I’m all for it and think it is important for a club with the number of age groups we have. The Balerno High School set up too.

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, Jingle Bells said:

A few need to make the distinction between

 

Levien the excellent Centre Half for the Club

and

Levien the mediocre DOF/Manager.

 

At the end of the day the issue of whether or not he stays on or goes will depend on the number of bums on seats, which in turn will be decided by how good the style of football is that he instructs his team to play.

Mediocre? Are there loads of other Hearts managers who got us third place twice in a row and have an above average European record?

[Bazzas right boot]

12 minutes ago, Jingle Bells said:

A few need to make the distinction between

 

Levien the excellent Centre Half for the Club

and

Levien the mediocre DOF/Manager.

 

At the end of the day the issue of whether or not he stays on or goes will depend on the number of bums on seats, which in turn will be decided by how good the style of football is that he instructs his team to play.

 

 

Back to back third place finishes- medicore.

 

How many times in our history we had back to back top 3 finishes?

 

 

Did he get us in the he europa league stages, I forget?

 

As DoF

1st over Rangers and hibs.

 

How many times in 30 years we been above rangers?

 

3rd on promotion?

 

All medicore?

 

5th, so -one season out of 5 he's been medicore, not even bad!

 

Talking shite post of the year, tbh.

[hueyview]

Don't know how good or bad Craig is a manager.  One things clear, the existing squad is unacceptable.  Hearts need 4 or 5 first team players to compete and win against Aberdeen, Hibs and Rangers.....

 

Its money, unfortunately.   

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Mediocre? Are there loads of other Hearts managers who got us third place twice in a row and have an above average European record?

Stop confusing the argument with facts.

[Bazzas right boot]

6 minutes ago, Ryder said:

 

I’d probably prefer a more experienced head coach too, to be fair. Purely on the DoF role though, I’m all for it and think it is important for a club with the number of age groups we have. The Balerno High School set up too.

 

 

Think  that is key.

 

If the dof model blocks us from having an experienced head coach, I'm against it.

 

If the DoF model can work with a big name/ experienced manager I have no problem with it.

 

The quality of the head coach is vital going forward.

 

 

[socrates82]

5 hours ago, Craigieboy said:

 

In my opinion, post sentiment is irrelevant on this issue. 

 

Its simply a case that the DOF system we have in place isn’t working. It needs replaced. 

 

Or tweaked and fixed.

[socrates82]

12 minutes ago, Ryder said:

 

I’d probably prefer a more experienced head coach too, to be fair. Purely on the DoF role though, I’m all for it and think it is important for a club with the number of age groups we have. The Balerno High School set up too.

 

This where I am. There is a huge amount to do with various link-ups and development and the Academy. With no DoF type role who will do that exactly?

 

It's possibly Levein took on too much but then we had, and have, a massive rebuilding job to do, including hiring new coaches at every level, as well as manager hires and more player signings that we'd normally expect. I'm sure when that's done the DoF role will evolve accordingly to maybe focus on one or two areas only.

[portobellojambo1]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

As it stands now, Levein will live or die based on results. January is huge. 

Personally, I don't mind Levein... But results, followed by performances are needed. 

The one niggle is the time wasted after Cathros exit in appointing the new manager. 

Understandable Boris. Craig was tasked with going out and finding an experienced football manager to be put in place for football matters. He didn't really want to do that, as became clear when asked by Ann who he had decided on as the experienced football manager to start getting things moving in the right direction. His answer was Jon Daly. Things developed from there and he was put in a position where he had to take the job.

 

I do find it difficult to be critical of Craig at times, during his playing career he done an excellent job for Hearts. I am also one of those who doesn't think he done a bad job when he was manager first time round. He had a set way he wanted us to play, it involved having strong defenders in place who could be depended on but it wasn't, in my opinion, a side which was defensively set up and played on the break. There were a good few big victories which I can remember.

 

However, what I see now is someone who is manager but doesn't want to be, but why not, only he can answer. In conversations some people have suggested maybe the whole Scotland experience has had an effect on him, or that he has been out of club football management for too long and has lost some of his desire. When you do watch him when he is on the side of the pitch now he just doesn't really look interested at all. Would I like to see him be successful as the manager of HMFC this time round, of course I would. If he is successful then HMFC are successful. However, if I'm honest it just doesn't look like it is working.

 

As an aside, in another post you mentioned that you are worried that if the position of DoF is done away with it could spell the end of the academy. I, personally, don't think that has to be the case, a structure is in place at the academy and there is no need to do away with it, might potentially need a couple of tweaks, but that is manageable.

 

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, socrates82 said:

 

This where I am. There is a huge amount to do with various link-ups and development and the Academy. With no DoF type role who will do that exactly?

 

Not sure either. Things like this have changed the infrastructure of the club dramatically since the Eighties, which always seems to be the decade and set up that those who dislike the DoF role use as the yard stick for what they want the the club to be like.

[Mr Rabbit]

5 hours ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Ann will only be in the role as long as she’s the owner. 

 

Once she’s paid back in full it’ll be up to her & the new owners (FOH) if she stays on in some capacity. 

 

Re the mob making choices, I firmly believe that the wider support should have a say in how management is structured. I’m not saying that they should get a say in every minute detail but basically whether or not we go with a DOF or other management structure. 

 

Leveins days are numbered. But not while Ann is still in charge. 

 

Yeah that’s it though I can see her staying on in a highly influential position.

 

With the fans having a say in the structure I’m not sure how practical that would be and how we would go about putting that in place. It would be nice to have a fan influence but my issue would be football fans as a whole are quite thickle and a lot of the decisions would be too impulsive.

 

However agree with the comment regarding levein. I would be fine with the football if they were getting results but losing while playing poorly is hard to stomach.

[Boris]

26 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

Understandable Boris. Craig was tasked with going out and finding an experienced football manager to be put in place for football matters. He didn't really want to do that, as became clear when asked by Ann who he had decided on as the experienced football manager to start getting things moving in the right direction. His answer was Jon Daly. Things developed from there and he was put in a position where he had to take the job.

 

I do find it difficult to be critical of Craig at times, during his playing career he done an excellent job for Hearts. I am also one of those who doesn't think he done a bad job when he was manager first time round. He had a set way he wanted us to play, it involved having strong defenders in place who could be depended on but it wasn't, in my opinion, a side which was defensively set up and played on the break. There were a good few big victories which I can remember.

 

However, what I see now is someone who is manager but doesn't want to be, but why not, only he can answer. In conversations some people have suggested maybe the whole Scotland experience has had an effect on him, or that he has been out of club football management for too long and has lost some of his desire. When you do watch him when he is on the side of the pitch now he just doesn't really look interested at all. Would I like to see him be successful as the manager of HMFC this time round, of course I would. If he is successful then HMFC are successful. However, if I'm honest it just doesn't look like it is working.

 

As an aside, in another post you mentioned that you are worried that if the position of DoF is done away with it could spell the end of the academy. I, personally, don't think that has to be the case, a structure is in place at the academy and there is no need to do away with it, might potentially need a couple of tweaks, but that is manageable.

 

Thanks for your reply PJ1.

 

I agree re Levein looking that bit more , em, sanguine , if that's the right word.

 

I hope he's successful too, and in complete agreement with you about his previous commitment to Hearts.

 

I guess my point re the academy was more that it's an area that needs development/developing, and a return to boom and bust managerial appointments could affect that.

[Boab]

7 hours ago, Thomaso said:

 

If Levein did not pick the team, did not dictate tactics, and did not make the transfer selections, then the credit for winning the Championship and finishing 3rd is all Robbie's surely.

 

If (as some suggest) Levein did pick the team, dictate tactics, and select the transfer targets, then a large slice of credit must go to him.

 

Thanks. That's really all I was asking.

[Boab]

6 hours ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

In the first year of the 5 year plan we started off in The Championship Boab. We watched football that season which everyone enjoyed, both the fans and the players. We came back up to the top league and that all changed, instead of looking to try and beat the opposition it appeared that our focus turned to trying not to lose to them, and in the course effectively sacrificing an attacking game that had brought so much success. Lets look at this logically and without Maroon and White specs on. It was a 5 year plan, with the hope that we would progress each year. We are in year 4 and some people are saying on various threads, rightly or wrongly, that we may have to put up with the absolute shit on the park at the moment for another 2 or 3 years. The football, without putting any sort of spin on it, has been generally fecking awful to watch, and not just since December of 2016. How would you feel, how would anyone feel, if at the end of the 5th year of the plan Heart of Midlothian are playing their football back in the Championship, where the cycle started. And lets not for one second think it isn't possible, because it most certainly is. In recent games versus Dundee, Kilmarnock and Partick, three of the teams below us in the league, we have managed to scrape together 1 point from 9. We have no God given right to retain a position in the top league, that position will be gained by what does and doesn't happen on the park. There is also a danger that crowds will plummet if we continue to produce little on the football side, which in turn will impact on finance coming into the club. Sometimes, we do look at things with a sort of "that cannot happen to us, we are Hearts" sort of attitude. If you wanted to you could also include not losing to Hibs within that sort of attitude, but over the last 2/3 years we have seen we can lose to Hibs, and regularly. I think anyone who thinks there is no chance of us potentially returning to the Championship is misleading themselves, and the whole happy, very successful,  5 year plan will have us back where it all started, and still looking for progress on the park if it does happen.

 

That's the thing, mate. Five year plans....any targets set are fraught with danger. 

The one thing that really annoyed me at the end of the Championship season was the fragmentation of a young side that, potentially, could have gone on to bigger and better things. We'll never know ! To me. it was a mistake of Neilson's to think that he had to " beef up " the team for the return to the top flight. Alan Hansonesque in it's " you'll win nothing with kids " mantra.

We are where we are now because of those decisions.I think CL had a big part in it and, obviously, Cathro so had, in popular opinion, to take over and sort out the mess.

I agree with you, PJ, he doesn't look like he wants to be there. If there is even some truth in that, we are in trouble and could finish any where this season. The only good thing at present is that it can be fixed. I hope for his, and our, sake, he succeeds. I just can't see him stepping aside or changing the management structure so it has to work or we're in the brown stuff.

[soonbe110]

4 hours ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Totally agree. 

 

Perhaps due to things like the academy it’s worth seeing out more time with Levein overseeing everything. Maybe he can turn round first team matters. 

 

In any case, I would assert that even the biggest fans of Levein will find it difficult to imagine him continuing in his role if a further two or three seasons go by (potentially 6 transfer windows) and we end up watching the same overpaid shite players that he had brought in. 

 

 

Agreed. I’m a Levein fan, no point hiding it. I firmly believe he will turn it around if that’s the intent. I’m still to be 100% convinced he is it for the long haul. January will be key on that front. 

Assuming he is he will sort it out. Better track record than the other candidates eg Wright, Hartley, Pressley etc. He has a point to prove and the amount of crap that is mentioned about him must just drive what is a very determined character to stick two fingers up to the lot of them, media and fans alike. 

I was talking to a Thistle fan who was at the game last Sunday. His view was that they were beaten until Levein switched to his favourite 4-6-0 formation. When I pointed out that when he took Isma and Lafferty off he put Stockton, a striker, on and then added another striker in  Keena he just said he didn't  realise that the guys who came on were strikers. Just sums up Scottish footballs myopia. 

[soonbe110]

4 hours ago, Craigieboy said:

 

Aaaaah, the old and very tired “do you want a say on match day tactics” argument. 

 

Bit of a strawman argument that one really. Of course the fans dont want or expect a say on those matters and to suggest such is just ****ing stupid. 

 

But if the club is fan owned then those fans will rightly want a say in the BIG decisions that will be made. 

 

I really don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that FOH members may be balloted on BIG matters like club structure, future stadium redevelopment etc, etc. 

 

As for your remarks which relate to the suggestion that the current management set up saw us out of the championship therefore should be given time now; I think it’s been given time. Quite a sufficient amount. Moreover, it will (unfortunately in my opinion) get even more time, even more transfer windows to affect the appropriate changes. History says it’ll fail. 

 

I challenge anyone to endorse the DOF model that we currently have after a further two or three years of it being in place. 

 

I cant see it being successful based on the last two years goings on. 

You have to be living in a dreamworld if you believe that can be successful. If FoH members are to vote on anything important, other than Board Members, then the Club will essentially he managed by jkb forum dialogue. We will be bust, third division within five years of Budges departure. 

Its essential to have professionals running a professional business. . Fans  cant run any business successfully. They can own it but not run  it. 

[soonbe110]

4 hours ago, Craigieboy said:

 

You raise interesting points. 

 

As I say though, it would be ridiculous for fans to vote on minor matters. That’s not what I’m referring to at all. 

 

A majority one off vote on how FOH subscribers would like the managerial structure to be set up going forward is entirely appropriate in my opinion. 

 

Or do we indeed simply vote in a chairperson & let him/her make that choice?

 

Genuinely just putting this out there. I don’t know what’ll happen. 

Latter for me.