Brexit?

[jake]

So that leaves The Express and the Daily Mail as the bastions of truth?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I didnt say that nor have i ever quoted them.

 

Thats why i posted that link to you about the 3 money men.

It was i thought a neutral view of brexit.

[Adam Murray]

Remember the good old days (not too long ago) when the nationalist buzz words to beat Westminster over the head were 'food banks' and 'full fiscal autonomy', what ever happened to those? It seems 'Brexit' is now thee choice of grievance to keep the natives happy.

[Space Mackerel]

Not so good news, car firms looking to relocate to Eastern Europe.

 

At least they can all go fishing after and screw the natural habitat/food chain for generations.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/19/carmakers-look-to-move-research-roles-to-eastern-europe-after-brexit-vote

[Cade]

Another loony plan is to re-commission the Royal Yacht Britannia and use it as some kind of mobile, floating "trade deal negotiations boardroom" in an attempt to impress the other side so much that they give us anything we want.

 

Laughable.

 

[CavySlaveJambo]

Argh multiquote got deleted accidently but:

 

1. Their were people who voted remain in 2014 simply because of EU membership and what "Project Fear" was saying then.

 

2. EU students coming to the UK this academic year would have applied and accepted (even conditionally) their place before the Referendum.

 

3. Point based immigration which was want the leave campaign actually could have resulted in higher immigration than we currently have.

[aussieh]

do you and aussie sit in the garden shed wi a see you jimmy hat and a skirt on listening to the corries all night working out what kinda drivel your gonna put on here, on every political topic ?

 

Have you still got your 90s mega mix on loop?

1690s that is.

[aussieh]

Do you mean the "See you Jimmy" hat invented by an Englishman?

See, they can invent stuff, just a pity its not as good as our stuff.

 

Anyway, I thought we were all British? English/Scottish when it suits you.

 

Scottish European is the only way, good or bad. You keep your Scots/English/British/Uk time of the month to yourself, its overrated.

[Thunderstruck]

Remember the good old days (not too long ago) when the nationalist buzz words to beat Westminster over the head were 'food banks' and 'full fiscal autonomy', what ever happened to those? It seems 'Brexit' is now thee choice of grievance to keep the natives happy.

Is doesn't help that tack when some in rural areas have to resort to food bank assistance due to the (still ongoing) farm payments fiasco. Can any Nats remind us who was the cause of those problems - Westminster, Brussels or was it Edinburgh?

[Rocco_Jambo]

3. Point based immigration which was want the leave campaign actually could have resulted in higher immigration than we currently have.

I doubt anyone would doubt a point based system 'could' lead to higher immigration.If the points required was set to low then clearly it could lead to higher immigration but surely the point is that it can be set to a threshold which suits the current immigration target and can be changed when desired.

[FWJ]

Well, there's a surprise....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37439890

 

You could tell by the poorly concealed look of horror on his face the next morning. P***k.

[Rudi-Robertson]

I thought this thread was going to be about what happens when a fat bird sits on a dodgy chair

[Seymour M Hersh]

Well, there's a surprise....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37439890

 

You could tell by the poorly concealed look of horror on his face the next morning. P***k.

 

Alan Duncan is a welt and deeply untrustworthy.

[Cade]

Day after they "won"

 

Bricking it

[Space Mackerel]

Not to worry, all under control.

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-may-in-brexit-summit-as-bank-warns-of-debt-panic-a3351476.html

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

Bumbling Boris backed Remain the day before now.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-david-cameron-eu-referendum-leave-crushed-a7328621.html?cmpid=facebook-post

[punkrockcroc]

Johnson and Gove, what a pair of lying *****.

[Cade]

Tory conference is making it look likely that we'll be having the Hard Brexit.

 

No single market, no trade deals, basic WTO rates only.

 

Jesus christ.

[Space Mackerel]

Tory conference is making it look likely that we'll be having the Hard Brexit.

 

No single market, no trade deals, basic WTO rates only.

 

Jesus christ.

But, but, but, they're going to build a new Royal Yacht!!

[JamboX2]

Tory conference is making it look likely that we'll be having the Hard Brexit.

 

No single market, no trade deals, basic WTO rates only.

 

Jesus christ.

Kind of think this is all doom mongering to make our soft exit look good to voters ahead of an early election.

[Space Mackerel]

Kind of think this is all doom mongering to make our soft exit look good to voters ahead of an early election.

I reckon the Tories down South know their biggest rivals in the future are possibly UKIP. The flames of English Nationalism has been lit and want to stifle this out ASAP hence the rhetoric

[Rocco_Jambo]

The great EU falling apart at the seams.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37528325

[Adam Murray]

The great EU falling apart at the seams.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37528325

Hungary's just full of uneducated, rascist Little Hungarian types though, is it not?

[Space Mackerel]

Get your jelly pans out, here is the exit strategy!

 

[JamboX2]

Good article on the Brexit/Indy debate and Sturgeon's dithering.

 

http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14778076.David_Torrance__Sturgeon_has_very_little_excuse_not_to_fire_her_own_starting_gun_on_a_second_independence_referendum/?ref=twtrec

[Boris]

Good article on the Brexit/Indy debate and Sturgeon's dithering.

 

http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14778076.David_Torrance__Sturgeon_has_very_little_excuse_not_to_fire_her_own_starting_gun_on_a_second_independence_referendum/?ref=twtrec

 

Meh.

 

Torrance wants the SNP to call a referendum now as he feels they would lose it.  I suspect Sturgeon is keeping her powder dry to see how hard the brexit deal is.  The analysis from that chap that does wings over Scotland is quite interesting, regardless of personal views about him.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/waiting-on-the-guns/

 

So, imo, it's a bit of a phoney war at the moment.

[JamboX2]

Meh.

 

Torrance wants the SNP to call a referendum now as he feels they would lose it. I suspect Sturgeon is keeping her powder dry to see how hard the brexit deal is. The analysis from that chap that does wings over Scotland is quite interesting, regardless of personal views about him.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/waiting-on-the-guns/

 

So, imo, it's a bit of a phoney war at the moment.

Both argue the same point - phoney war.

 

However, I'm of the view the single market is the aim. Being in that will likely be the end result of negotiations. This hard talk i suspect is to two things:

 

1. Placate pro-Brexit voters

2. Build up the three Brexiteers to the point they've got to resign for failure to deliver their promises.

 

Wings is also very simplistic on borders. CTA is currently possible because Ireland and the UK aren't in Schengen and harmonise their immigration policy. The FM sounds the opposite note - she apparently views our system as too restrictive as it is. Equally, as a new applicant will we get opt-outs on Schengen? Or the euro? Two things which will make a border harder than at present.

 

Frankly, I'm pissed off Brexit is killing the economy slowly and I fear further insecurity over a Scexit from the UK would turn what's largely been an unimpressive decade into 20 years of pain and mess. Bread and butter issues are where the solutions to the cause of anti-immigration and nationalism lie. Not nation building in the ways the leaders of the SNP and Tories see it, but society building.

 

I fear though, the arguments on these things are lost for a good long time to come. My life will be one overcast with navel gazing debates on who we are rather than how we provide a netter world to the next generation. Brexit and Independence don't help that to me.

 

Equally, that awkward squad he dismisses are broadly the traditional left. People who want a more socialist nation with more state intervention. Something the EU isn't fond of. As you're pretty left Boris, do you ever view Brexit as a chance for proper socialism coming onto the table? The SNP/Yes vision is increasingly capitalistic in my eyes to what it was. A lot of watered down visions of a new way to the same with a different end point in power.

[Boris]

Both argue the same point - phoney war.

 

However, I'm of the view the single market is the aim. Being in that will likely be the end result of negotiations. This hard talk i suspect is to two things:

 

1. Placate pro-Brexit voters

2. Build up the three Brexiteers to the point they've got to resign for failure to deliver their promises.

 

Wings is also very simplistic on borders. CTA is currently possible because Ireland and the UK aren't in Schengen and harmonise their immigration policy. The FM sounds the opposite note - she apparently views our system as too restrictive as it is. Equally, as a new applicant will we get opt-outs on Schengen? Or the euro? Two things which will make a border harder than at present.

 

Frankly, I'm pissed off Brexit is killing the economy slowly and I fear further insecurity over a Scexit from the UK would turn what's largely been an unimpressive decade into 20 years of pain and mess. Bread and butter issues are where the solutions to the cause of anti-immigration and nationalism lie. Not nation building in the ways the leaders of the SNP and Tories see it, but society building.

 

I fear though, the arguments on these things are lost for a good long time to come. My life will be one overcast with navel gazing debates on who we are rather than how we provide a netter world to the next generation. Brexit and Independence don't help that to me.

 

Equally, that awkward squad he dismisses are broadly the traditional left. People who want a more socialist nation with more state intervention. Something the EU isn't fond of. As you're pretty left Boris, do you ever view Brexit as a chance for proper socialism coming onto the table? The SNP/Yes vision is increasingly capitalistic in my eyes to what it was. A lot of watered down visions of a new way to the same with a different end point in power.

 

Agreed, they are both articles looking to the future.  I suspect, one way or another, tehre will be a second independence referendum, later rather than sooner.

 

I hope you are right in your opinion regards the single market, but I'm not sure it will happen like that.  The Tories are needing to squash UKIP, if they can't then it does open up the door to Labour (yes, even under Corbyn!).

 

Borders...we will see, but I suspect if Scotland did gain independence then there would be some flexing on this...it also depends when (if) Scotland actually gets it.  If it is in tandem with Brexit, then Scotland could retain membership by supplanting the UK i.e. it takes the UK's place.  Supposition, perhaps, but a possibility?

 

I agree completely that society building is the way forward - that is why I support independence as I see it as the best route for this to happen.  Westminster dominated by Tories will not do this.  Arguably the rhetoric coming from May sounds the polar opposite.

 

I did ponder the leftist argument for Brexit.  The EU has failed and has becpme a neo-liberal cheerleader.  I agree it is more capitalistic than socialist, yet despite its economic direction, there are still workers rights enshrined in EU legislation, so it is a bit of a conundrum.  The main flaw is the Euro, and what that means, as I see it.  

 

I agree with you that the SNP is not a leftist party.  Centre left(ish) I'd say.  Progressive, perhaps.  Only in an independent Scotland will the political spectrum recallibrate.  A reborn Labour Party, unshackled from the UK landscape could do well in a new polity. 

[JamboX2]

Agreed, they are both articles looking to the future. I suspect, one way or another, tehre will be a second independence referendum, later rather than sooner.

 

I hope you are right in your opinion regards the single market, but I'm not sure it will happen like that. The Tories are needing to squash UKIP, if they can't then it does open up the door to Labour (yes, even under Corbyn!).

 

Borders...we will see, but I suspect if Scotland did gain independence then there would be some flexing on this...it also depends when (if) Scotland actually gets it. If it is in tandem with Brexit, then Scotland could retain membership by supplanting the UK i.e. it takes the UK's place. Supposition, perhaps, but a possibility?

 

I agree completely that society building is the way forward - that is why I support independence as I see it as the best route for this to happen. Westminster dominated by Tories will not do this. Arguably the rhetoric coming from May sounds the polar opposite.

 

I did ponder the leftist argument for Brexit. The EU has failed and has becpme a neo-liberal cheerleader. I agree it is more capitalistic than socialist, yet despite its economic direction, there are still workers rights enshrined in EU legislation, so it is a bit of a conundrum. The main flaw is the Euro, and what that means, as I see it.

 

I agree with you that the SNP is not a leftist party. Centre left(ish) I'd say. Progressive, perhaps. Only in an independent Scotland will the political spectrum recallibrate. A reborn Labour Party, unshackled from the UK landscape could do well in a new polity.

Interesting points. But independence is a zero sums game. I think the economic backlash from it would swamp any attempts to build that centre left paradise many dream of. Scotland would, arguably for the first time in terms of the state, be exposed to the globalised world in a way that would radically alter Scotland.

 

Swinney argued so in his Cabinet Paper - years of austerity and cuts. Kerevan too has said up to a decade of "liquidising" national assets to build up reserves to float a Scottish ?. To me that's a lost decade. Throwing us backwards to go forwards, at some point, soon. Perhaps.

 

Equally, smaller nations (to attract investment) generally opt for lower corporate taxation. Something again we see from the yes side.

 

To me, independence could be something interesting. But maybe in the 70s. Globalisation and the Global economy are such that I can only see a race to the bottom approach.

 

I also think, that from what we've seen with the EU reaction to Brexit, flexibility and a nice and kind approach to independence would likely not be forthcoming.

 

The Labour freed approach of many on the yes side is interesting... Labour, since 2010ish has largely tacked to the SNPs left. Scottish Labour called for nationalisation of scotrail. For more radical reform of Council Tax. Agsinst a tax freeze cutting local services. Now at UK level we again see a party much to the left of the SNP. The 56 largely adopted Labour's 2015 manifesto. However, no corresponding shift left was noted by voters, whi through social attitude surveys largely in Scotland stayed to the centre of British politics.

 

Labour is struggling in a debate which is inherently constitutional in nature. The language of the SNP doesn't seek consensus and pan-UK approach. Nor does the Tories. It's hard for a party (like Labour, the Liberals and the Greens) to gain traction when it's guns are focused on the economy and services rather than wjere the debate is being led which is identity and constitutionalism.

[Boris]

 

Labour is struggling in a debate which is inherently constitutional in nature. The language of the SNP doesn't seek consensus and pan-UK approach. Nor does the Tories. It's hard for a party (like Labour, the Liberals and the Greens) to gain traction when it's guns are focused on the economy and services rather than wjere the debate is being led which is identity and constitutionalism.

 

You see, if Labour thought about it they could position themselves constitutionally too.  Federalism, for example.  Offer that and see if they get the vote back from the Tories.

 

Trouble is, there is no will from the UK leadership to do so and that leaves the party in Scotland hamstrung.  IMO

 

I also feel that if they did sort the country constitutionally, then it would be easier to debate the economy, services etc.

[Space Mackerel]

Interesting interview giving a more bigger picture and the desire to keep the EU as one superstate. All at the bequest of Washington and Wall Street doncha know.

 

https://youtu.be/XOTfy8gzC3U

[Boris]

Interesting interview giving a more bigger picture and the desire to keep the EU as one superstate. All at the bequest of Washington and Wall Street doncha know.

 

https://youtu.be/XOTfy8gzC3U

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky

 

Meh.

[Space Mackerel]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky

 

Meh.

What about the good old Daily Telegraph then?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/27/the-european-union-always-was-a-cia-project-as-brexiteers-discov/

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JamboX2]

You see, if Labour thought about it they could position themselves constitutionally too. Federalism, for example. Offer that and see if they get the vote back from the Tories.

 

Trouble is, there is no will from the UK leadership to do so and that leaves the party in Scotland hamstrung. IMO

 

I also feel that if they did sort the country constitutionally, then it would be easier to debate the economy, services etc.

Labour to win in Scotland would need to win the Soft-Yes voters on the centre-left and left back. As well as Tories (you've got to offer a broad vision). The fact we have a minority SNP administration is good for this. If Labour can hold a balance of power (with others) they may well be able to force voters to make a choice - SNP passed on austerity or Labour, SNP/Tory budgets or Labour etc.

 

Minority power in 2007 gave the Tories very big voice. It can do so for Labour.

 

As for the constitutional question, this is now beyond the control of anyone party. A progressive alliance (including progressive Tories) need to set up a Royal Commission and devise a new deal here. One which is designed to strengthen democracy, political representation and the unity of the UK. That considers the future of devolution and equalises power accordingly. That to me is the only solution and it's outwith the power of one party. Imo Labour should be leading here and inviting Greens, Liberals and the SNP if they want to engage on board. However, the SNP rejected that before and will again. Progressive alliance's do them no good.

[coconut doug]

Labour to win in Scotland would need to win the Soft-Yes voters on the centre-left and left back. As well as Tories (you've got to offer a broad vision). The fact we have a minority SNP administration is good for this. If Labour can hold a balance of power (with others) they may well be able to force voters to make a choice - SNP passed on austerity or Labour, SNP/Tory budgets or Labour etc.

 

Minority power in 2007 gave the Tories very big voice. It can do so for Labour.

 

As for the constitutional question, this is now beyond the control of anyone party. A progressive alliance (including progressive Tories) need to set up a Royal Commission and devise a new deal here. One which is designed to strengthen democracy, political representation and the unity of the UK. That considers the future of devolution and equalises power accordingly. That to me is the only solution and it's outwith the power of one party. Imo Labour should be leading here and inviting Greens, Liberals and the SNP if they want to engage on board. However, the SNP rejected that before and will again. Progressive alliance's do them no good.

Labour is finished in Scotland and IMO deservedly so. Being like the Tories has not worked in the past and will not work in the future. We have a right wing party already and adapting Labour policies to attract the 20% of people who vote Tory has resulted in the alienation of about a half of the Labour vote and 20% of the electorate already. There is nowhere for Labour to go.

 

We don't need a new deal courtesy of a progressive alliance consisting of so called progressive Tories which is an oxymoron to most of us anyway. A Royal Commission to strengthen the unity of the U.K. is totally unworkable and at least 10 years too late. I notice today that according to the Times firms are now required to list foreign workers. Is that the kind of U.K. unity you want? You remember Gordon Brown's British jobs for British workers don't you? Tories and Labour hand in hand, as usual. 

 

Don't you remember the Labour Party rejecting a so called progressive alliance with the Liberals 2010, with the SNP, PC, Greens and Liberals in 2015 and more recently under Corbyn. I remember Nicola offering a progressive alliance just over a year ago and being sneered at by Murphy and Miliband, the former claiming they didn't need an alliance because the Labour Party would increase it's representation in Scotland.

 

The equalisation of power through devolution is a con as exemplified through Brexit. You read Torrance's article and so you are aware of the reality despite the promises made to the contrary.

 

If you don't like the SNP don't vote for them but be aware that a vote for Labour offers no alternative to the Tories  You keep telling us that Labour has to move to the right to attract Tory voters so they can win the election. With their views on immigration, taxation, trident, foreign policy. welfare and many other aspects of government they are already to the right of some Tories. Around one third of their membership and about 90% of their parliamentary party would fit seamlessly into the Conservative party and may well start to do so. If there were an alternative to Labour in England their position would be even more critical than it is now. That's the trouble for Labour and it's right wing narrative. They seem to have convinced some people but these same people have decide to vote fort he real thing and put their cross against the Conservatives and UKIP candidates. Your only hope is Corbyn and you are stabbing him in the back.

[Boris]

Labour is finished in Scotland and IMO deservedly so. Being like the Tories has not worked in the past and will not work in the future. We have a right wing party already and adapting Labour policies to attract the 20% of people who vote Tory has resulted in the alienation of about a half of the Labour vote and 20% of the electorate already. There is nowhere for Labour to go.

 

We don't need a new deal courtesy of a progressive alliance consisting of so called progressive Tories which is an oxymoron to most of us anyway. A Royal Commission to strengthen the unity of the U.K. is totally unworkable and at least 10 years too late. I notice today that according to the Times firms are now required to list foreign workers. Is that the kind of U.K. unity you want? You remember Gordon Brown's British jobs for British workers don't you? Tories and Labour hand in hand, as usual. 

 

Don't you remember the Labour Party rejecting a so called progressive alliance with the Liberals 2010, with the SNP, PC, Greens and Liberals in 2015 and more recently under Corbyn. I remember Nicola offering a progressive alliance just over a year ago and being sneered at by Murphy and Miliband, the former claiming they didn't need an alliance because the Labour Party would increase it's representation in Scotland.

 

The equalisation of power through devolution is a con as exemplified through Brexit. You read Torrance's article and so you are aware of the reality despite the promises made to the contrary.

 

If you don't like the SNP don't vote for them but be aware that a vote for Labour offers no alternative to the Tories  You keep telling us that Labour has to move to the right to attract Tory voters so they can win the election. With their views on immigration, taxation, trident, foreign policy. welfare and many other aspects of government they are already to the right of some Tories. Around one third of their membership and about 90% of their parliamentary party would fit seamlessly into the Conservative party and may well start to do so. If there were an alternative to Labour in England their position would be even more critical than it is now. That's the trouble for Labour and it's right wing narrative. They seem to have convinced some people but these same people have decide to vote fort he real thing and put their cross against the Conservatives and UKIP candidates. Your only hope is Corbyn and you are stabbing him in the back.

 

Good post, Sir!

[coconut doug]

Good post, Sir!

Cheers!

[JamboX2]

Labour is finished in Scotland and IMO deservedly so. Being like the Tories has not worked in the past and will not work in the future. We have a right wing party already and adapting Labour policies to attract the 20% of people who vote Tory has resulted in the alienation of about a half of the Labour vote and 20% of the electorate already. There is nowhere for Labour to go.

 

Well done for taking a snippet andexpanding beyond that point beyond its context. My point was to work with progressive Tories on the constitution. Some are keen to work for a more flexible and federal union. Those peoples views need considered. I'm in no way calling for the adoption of anti-immigration rhetoric or policies. Nor euroskepticism or their economics. Purely to agree a common view on the constitution. Much like the convention of the 90s brought Labour and Liberal and charity, unions, business abd others together on devolution. There's room here for the SNP too.

 

We don't need a new deal courtesy of a progressive alliance consisting of so called progressive Tories which is an oxymoron to most of us anyway. A Royal Commission to strengthen the unity of the U.K. is totally unworkable and at least 10 years too late. I notice today that according to the Times firms are now required to list foreign workers. Is that the kind of U.K. unity you want? You remember Gordon Brown's British jobs for British workers don't you? Tories and Labour hand in hand, as usual

Don't and didn't agree on any of that. And if independence and the end of union is inevitable have conviction and take it. Your side can't because they still lack a coherent plan.

 

Don't you remember the Labour Party rejecting a so called progressive alliance with the Liberals 2010, with the SNP, PC, Greens and Liberals in 2015 and more recently under Corbyn. I remember Nicola offering a progressive alliance just over a year ago and being sneered at by Murphy and Miliband, the former claiming they didn't need an alliance because the Labour Party would increase it's representation in Scotland.

Wasn't enough seats in 2010 to provide a stable alliance in parliament. 2015, the Liberals were decimated, Plaid, SNP and Greens couldn't bring the seats to have a majority. Such an alliance or pact has to also be in England not just the nationalist parties. After all the SNP can't take votes off the Tories in Manchester or Dorset to aid the majority. Sturgeon would've been better calling for one with parties beyond Labour and including them.

 

All that misses a key point, one that Paul Mason recently wrote about, that any such alliance has to agree a common goal and end result. Is the SNP, or Plaid, willing to agree to this should all their demands on devolution or independence be met? Should they equally be willing to adapt for the wider good?

 

The equalisation of power through devolution is a con as exemplified through Brexit. You read Torrance's article and so you are aware of the reality despite the promises made to the contrary.

Equal devolution is something we lack. Not all parts of the UK have equal power, England being the one nation with no national parliament nor local devolution what so ever. That is the equalisation that needs to occur.

 

If you don't like the SNP don't vote for them but be aware that a vote for Labour offers no alternative to the Tories You keep telling us that Labour has to move to the right to attract Tory voters so they can win the election. With their views on immigration, taxation, trident, foreign policy. welfare and many other aspects of government they are already to the right of some Tories. Around one third of their membership and about 90% of their parliamentary party would fit seamlessly into the Conservative party and may well start to do so. If there were an alternative to Labour in England their position would be even more critical than it is now. That's the trouble for Labour and it's right wing narrative. They seem to have convinced some people but these same people have decide to vote fort he real thing and put their cross against the Conservatives and UKIP candidates. Your only hope is Corbyn and you are stabbing him in the back.

Corbyn needs to up his game. My issues with him were on his leadership. He needs to take the fight to the Tories and lead from the front. His policies and that of Owen Smith's with the exception of Europe were near identical. The part of my vote was based on the European question.

 

I haven't said Labour should or needs to move right to win. It does need to offer policies which appeal to the centre and needs to be much more pragmatic on some areas, like defence.

 

I also think you're almost blind hatred of Labour obscures a lot of things from sight to you. Labour under Ed and now Corbyn has tacked left wards. Corbyn obviously more so. The intake in 2015 and 2010 was more on the left than since the mid-90s. There's a changing of the guard here. Some like Jonathan Reynolds may well back Trident renewal but these people support universal income, rent control, more council housing and investment in the economy. The leadership race showed the party's right is now much maligned. The hard and soft left have won the debate over the direction. Corbyn's less compromising stance won the day. But with that he himself must make it work.

 

That is still to be seen. But he's the leader and has my full support.

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

[Boof]

A lot of stuff I agree with. It's up there if you want to read it ^

 

That's all.

[reaths17]

Labour is finished in Scotland and IMO deservedly so. Being like the Tories has not worked in the past and will not work in the future. We have a right wing party already and adapting Labour policies to attract the 20% of people who vote Tory has resulted in the alienation of about a half of the Labour vote and 20% of the electorate already. There is nowhere for Labour to go.

 

We don't need a new deal courtesy of a progressive alliance consisting of so called progressive Tories which is an oxymoron to most of us anyway. A Royal Commission to strengthen the unity of the U.K. is totally unworkable and at least 10 years too late. I notice today that according to the Times firms are now required to list foreign workers. Is that the kind of U.K. unity you want? You remember Gordon Brown's British jobs for British workers don't you? Tories and Labour hand in hand, as usual. 

 

Don't you remember the Labour Party rejecting a so called progressive alliance with the Liberals 2010, with the SNP, PC, Greens and Liberals in 2015 and more recently under Corbyn. I remember Nicola offering a progressive alliance just over a year ago and being sneered at by Murphy and Miliband, the former claiming they didn't need an alliance because the Labour Party would increase it's representation in Scotland.

 

The equalisation of power through devolution is a con as exemplified through Brexit. You read Torrance's article and so you are aware of the reality despite the promises made to the contrary.

 

If you don't like the SNP don't vote for them but be aware that a vote for Labour offers no alternative to the Tories  You keep telling us that Labour has to move to the right to attract Tory voters so they can win the election. With their views on immigration, taxation, trident, foreign policy. welfare and many other aspects of government they are already to the right of some Tories. Around one third of their membership and about 90% of their parliamentary party would fit seamlessly into the Conservative party and may well start to do so. If there were an alternative to Labour in England their position would be even more critical than it is now. That's the trouble for Labour and it's right wing narrative. They seem to have convinced some people but these same people have decide to vote fort he real thing and put their cross against the Conservatives and UKIP candidates. Your only hope is Corbyn and you are stabbing him in the back.

you forgot to say how far right of the tories the draconian SNP are.

[Stuart Lyon]

First they asked for their names.........

[coconut doug]

you forgot to say how far right of the tories the draconian SNP are.

That's because they are not, but if you have any evidence to the contrary I'd be interested to see it.

[Boris]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/06/hard-brexit-could-see-scotland-lose-80000-jobs-and-cost-2000-a-head

 

Braw...

[Space Mackerel]

you forgot to say how far right of the tories the draconian SNP are.

Eh?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[coconut doug]

Well done for taking a snippet andexpanding beyond that point beyond its context. My point was to work with progressive Tories on the constitution. Some are keen to work for a more flexible and federal union. Those peoples views need considered. I'm in no way calling for the adoption of anti-immigration rhetoric or policies. Nor euroskepticism or their economics. Purely to agree a common view on the constitution. Much like the convention of the 90s brought Labour and Liberal and charity, unions, business abd others together on devolution. There's room here for the SNP too.

 

 

Don't and didn't agree on any of that. And if independence and the end of union is inevitable have conviction and take it. Your side can't because they still lack a coherent plan.

 

 

Wasn't enough seats in 2010 to provide a stable alliance in parliament. 2015, the Liberals were decimated, Plaid, SNP and Greens couldn't bring the seats to have a majority. Such an alliance or pact has to also be in England not just the nationalist parties. After all the SNP can't take votes off the Tories in Manchester or Dorset to aid the majority. Sturgeon would've been better calling for one with parties beyond Labour and including them.

 

All that misses a key point, one that Paul Mason recently wrote about, that any such alliance has to agree a common goal and end result. Is the SNP, or Plaid, willing to agree to this should all their demands on devolution or independence be met? Should they equally be willing to adapt for the wider good?

 

 

Equal devolution is something we lack. Not all parts of the UK have equal power, England being the one nation with no national parliament nor local devolution what so ever. That is the equalisation that needs to occur.

 

 

Corbyn needs to up his game. My issues with him were on his leadership. He needs to take the fight to the Tories and lead from the front. His policies and that of Owen Smith's with the exception of Europe were near identical. The part of my vote was based on the European question.

 

I haven't said Labour should or needs to move right to win. It does need to offer policies which appeal to the centre and needs to be much more pragmatic on some areas, like defence.

 

I also think you're almost blind hatred of Labour obscures a lot of things from sight to you. Labour under Ed and now Corbyn has tacked left wards. Corbyn obviously more so. The intake in 2015 and 2010 was more on the left than since the mid-90s. There's a changing of the guard here. Some like Jonathan Reynolds may well back Trident renewal but these people support universal income, rent control, more council housing and investment in the economy. The leadership race showed the party's right is now much maligned. The hard and soft left have won the debate over the direction. Corbyn's less compromising stance won the day. But with that he himself must make it work.

 

That is still to be seen. But he's the leader and has my full support.

Progressive Tories do not exist. The phrase is self contradictory. Every social advance in this country had to be fought for, no concessions were ever given without pressure being applied. The establishment protects itself. It dilutes, delays, obfuscates, smears and closes ranks to protect itself. There is no underlying altruistic principle guiding the hand of social progress that can be influenced by fairness and reason. These people do not care about right and wrong that's why they got to where they are and why they remain there. How much reasoning and consultation do you need to work out that the House of Lords and a hereditary head of state are morally unacceptable? Did you see the apparently unanimous rapturous applause for the negative comments about human rights lawyers and human rights in general at the Conservative conference. What has been their stance on 16 year olds voting, on powers for devolution, on proportional representation on legal aid etc? The system (constitution) is designed to protect them, not us and an increasing number of people are beginning realise it, hence the demonization of the SNP and Corbyn. 

[JamboX2]

Progressive Tories do not exist.

Wellington- catholic emancipation?

Peel- end of corn laws, police, factory act?

Disraeli - electoral reform?

RAB Butler and his education act?

Heath and entering the European Community?

Thatcher going further than Labour on grammar school abolition?

Cameron on gay marriage?

 

Those are pretty substantial reforms made at their time. Not saying the Tories are as forward thinking as some on the left, but they have undertaken some of the greatest reforms that (as you rightly say) were fought for. In some cases by having them on manifestos for election!

 

In fact, there were as many Labour MPs in the 60s were uneasy to decriminalisation of homosexuality or abortion as the Tories. Christ Wilson was reluctant to give time in Parliament to those bills due to his upbringing and social conservatism. If it wasnt for more liberal minded people like Leo Abse and Roy Jenkins, it would have struggled to get parliamentary time.

 

Progressivism as a political idea is in no way the preserve of certain parties and people. Take the SNP, a party who proclaim progressive politics but when it comes to local democracy are largely a centralising force. Or in law and order, favour expanded tagging schemes and the idea that more police = lower crime rates. Those are not always progressive things.

 

Progressive people are on all sides of the debate. There's nothing to stop the progressive voices on all sides working against reactionary politics. If I was Labour leader in Westminster I'd be calling on those in all parties to oppose the anti-immigration rhetoric of the government. Some in Labour think we should follow suit, i dare say some in the SNP too think similar things.

 

The phrase is self contradictory. Every social advance in this country had to be fought for, no concessions were ever given without pressure being applied. The establishment protects itself. It dilutes, delays, obfuscates, smears and closes ranks to protect itself.

And yet from the Bill of Right and Claim of Right in the 1680s through to catholic emancipation and the Great Reform Acts of the 19th century to the Parliament Acts and the expansion of the franchise in the early and mid-20th century to an expansion of liberalism towards abortion, equal pay, workers rights, homosexuality and enshrining these things in the HRA and Equality Acts in the modern age, they've been forced to relent to the will of people. It's why we've not had revolution in Britain.

 

The fact is reform is always there to be gotten if we want it.

 

There is no underlying altruistic principle guiding the hand of social progress that can be influenced by fairness and reason. These people do not care about right and wrong that's why they got to where they are and why they remain there. How much reasoning and consultation do you need to work out that the House of Lords and a hereditary head of state are morally unacceptable?

If people want it gone it will go. No party since Lloyd George has made it the key red line of their reasons for election. I want both gone. But there's been huge amounts of reform beyond that. Personally i want the Lords gone before the monarchy because that is inherently more achievable in the here and now.

 

Democracy requires a broad support for such things to happen. You cannot force the abolition of things in a democracy, that would be anti-democratic.

 

Did you see the apparently unanimous rapturous applause for the negative comments about human rights lawyers and human rights in general at the Conservative conference. What has been their stance on 16 year olds voting, on powers for devolution, on proportional representation on legal aid etc?

Dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. I don't agree with their stance on any of that. But lets not forget that Tories in Wales and Scotland have long sought more tax powers than Labour ever did for a long time.

 

And on legal aid, Scotland is no better. Access to justice for many now is constrained to CAB and Free Legal Advice Centres. For a decade the use of both has grown in Scotland steadily because of SLAB (Scottish Legal Aid Board) cuts. From volunteering in this sector you see the increase in numbers. Access to justice across the UK is being constrained because it's an easy cut to make for both the UK and Scottish Government's. One which no thinks of using until it's too late. It's a scandal.

 

The system (constitution) is designed to protect them, not us and an increasing number of people are beginning realise it, hence the demonization of the SNP and Corbyn.

I don't think the SNP are demonised. They are the government of Scotland and a major party at Westminster. My grief with the SNP is their record in office (I don't propose to go into that debate now).

 

You need to separate the system - people in and the of the Establishment - from the Constitution - a structure of government. Both need reformed massively in Britain. The people in parts of the Establishment, not the constitution, has helped cause the crises we face now.

 

We need to be pragmatic in our approach here. Progressives exist on all sides of the left/right, unionist/nationalist divide. Those voices need to work together across those divides reform. It worked 100 years ago and can do now. Edit: be they ordinary people or politicians.

[Boris]

Democracy requires a broad support for such things to happen. You cannot force the abolition of things in a democracy, that would be anti-democratic.

 

 

 

A "democratically" elected government at Westminster can do what it wants, in the main.  And that includes abolishing things.

 

Such as, the GLC, nationalised industries, student maintenance etc etc

[XB52]

#GarscadScot by-election figures; percentage first preference votes: SNP 43, Lab 39, Con 10, Grn 5, LD 2. 39% swing from Lab to SNP.

Scottish Labour are truly finished. Until they embrace, or at least go neutral, on Independence they may as well just not bother

[Boris]

#GarscadScot by-election figures; percentage first preference votes: SNP 43, Lab 39, Con 10, Grn 5, LD 2. 39% swing from Lab to SNP.

Scottish Labour are truly finished. Until they embrace, or at least go neutral, on Independence they may as well just not bother

 

Interesting was the Hartlepool result - UKIP winning with nearly 50% of the vote.  Scary, imo.

[Ibrahim Tall]

Interesting was the Hartlepool result - UKIP winning with nearly 50% of the vote. Scary, imo.

Voter turnout of 17% apparently, 'yay' for democracy.