Fed up with Scottish Football - fed up with watching a sham (Merged Threads)

[redm]

It's easy to dismiss this as paranoia and that we have a chip on our shoulder but being a Hearts fan living outside Edinburgh you realise how much HMFC are disliked, or at least perceived badly, by your average Scottish football fan.

 

Refs are simply average football fans and IMO it isn't unreasonable to assume that some of them would share a similar negative outlook on Hearts.

 

A chum of mine isn't really into football or anything but recently started to take an interest in it and in Hearts particularly and have to admit that I just about keeled over with relief when the other day he mentioned that he thought it was pretty unfair how Hearts are treated by the media, referees and commentators. I swear to god this wasn't prompted by me in any way shape or form - I hadn't once alluded to my opinion on this sort of thing, I was too busy blethering about all the positives and doing the 'Hearts are GREAT because' thing - this is a view he came up with entirely by himself.

 

Relief might seem like a weird reaction but it was so refreshing to hear that I probably wasn't actually paranoid at all. I do worry sometimes that if you constantly look for issues you're probably always going to find something which fits your theory but as others on this thread have mentioned, there is this genuine and incessant nagging feeling that I just can't shake but which also feels completely rational. I think other clubs (mostly the OF) can be pretty clever in the way they make public comments about refereeing standards, it's very strategic. We don't play that game at the moment but we're going to have to get a little smarter in the way we handle it, that's for sure.

[hawaii]

Can I ask those who feel it's all Hearts fault to tell me if any other club in the SPL has had a player red carded by the 4th official or a penalty award overturned by a linesman?

 

I'm asking because to my knowledge these events have ONLY occurred to Hearts. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

[Dr. Bapswent]

The reality is were going to have to live with it (if it exists or not) and win with these circumstance, rather than think its going to change.

 

If this means we have to have cleaner noses, and play better than others....then unfortunately thats the hand we have at the moment.

 

Blame the OF, blame VR or blame the SFA if you like.

 

its not going to help or change.

 

We may have an uphill struggle, and it may be unfair, but its not a good enough reason to give up on things, it just makes winning all the sweeter and deserved.

[johnjl]

John before you and JR descend into your usual highly entertaining '2 bald men fighting over a comb routine' can i ask what your view is of Hearts relationship with the SFA and indeed Hearts players understanding of the laws of the game and how they interact with the officials during any game?

 

genuine question.

 

i think we don`t do ourselves any favours at times. we do have problems with indiscipline and there are of course many decisions where the ref is correct. however the sfa is supposed to be above singling out players, miko anyone, and clubs for special treatment and there is no doubt in my mind that in hearts` case this doesn`t happen.

 

yes there are times we let ourselves down but frustration at an inept and corrupt organisation that deliberately treats us unfairly makes this understandable on some occassions.

[The Treasurer]

see my previous post re Zal. a red card waiting to happen. Might i say liability?

 

Re Kingston on Fyvie - I seen it quite differently. Kingston went in, groin high, studs up. Deserved card. Was it a 2nd yellow? Can't quite remember.

 

Re Diamond vs Miko - I don;t recall the blantant pull down but perception do differ amongst support.

 

Do you think the 4th official saw the headbutt on Zal? I've no idea

If so, do you think he would have flagged it up to the ref? Again, no idea

 

A few questions for you Sheepie.

Have you ever had a player sent off on the say so of a 4th official.

It's happened to us twice.

Have you ever been awarded a penalty only to have it reversed after opponents have persuaded the linesman to raise his flag and change the ref's mind.

It's happened to us twice.

Do you regularly see opponents spoken to for persistent fouling only for one of your players to be booked for his first offence.

I've lost count of the number of times that's happened to us.

Do you have players booked for leaving the pitch at a goal celebration only for opponents in the same game to receive a warning for the same offence.

It happens regularly to us.

Does your management team get spoken to/sent to the stand regularly yet opposition managers are free to wander onto the pitch and question decisions without punishment.

It happened to us last night.

 

By no means do I say we are the only team that is on the receiving end of dodgy decisions but ever since Levein and the club stood up to the gFA (and won) we do seem to get more than our fair share.

[The Mighty Thor]

That sort of misses the point. Bad decisions harm our chances of winning. In the first 35 years of supporting Hearts I never felt any endemic bias against Hearts and indeed except for the "characters" like Tiny Wharton never used to particularly notice the referee. Something has changed in the last 5 years or so. It may be a reaction to Hearts own disciplnary problems, on and off the field, which we have to sort, but that doesn't make it right. It's not just the big decisions but at least half of the matches I see players booked for their second or even first foul when opposition players commit as bad offences more frequently without even being spoken to. And by inhibiting players even a yellow card harms our chance of winning.

There are so many examples we've begun not to notice them. There was a picture of the high foot that earned a St. Johnstone player a yellow on Saturday. For the same offence (well not quite, because Jose didn't actually make contact or come close) Goncalves got a straight red. I find it hard to believe that anyone can deny referees are trigger happy when it comes to Hearts - even BBC Sportsound started commenting on it last season.

 

Yip they do.

 

Bad signings, bad tactical decisions, stupid tackles, bad individual decisions etc etc. There's more of them per game than there are bad officiating decisions.

 

get our house in order first then we can start lobbing grenades at the SFA.

[johnjl]

They are a good excuse for people to blame when we get beat.

 

Other than that, the SFA don't decide whether we win or lose football matches. The people who run our club, the people who decide which players we buy, the people who train our players, the people who motivate our players, the people who pick the team, and the players themselves, plus a bit of luck and a decision or two that goes for (always forgotton if we win) or against (always remembered when we lose), these are the things which decide whether HMFC win or lose football matches.

 

As far as discipline goes, ours is awful. If you square up to someone, if you talk back to the ref, if you kick the ball away, if you take your shirt off, if you retaliate, if you kick out at someone, you are giving the referee an opportunity to send a player off, which will more than likely cost points.

 

The fact that we've continually allowed our players to give referees these opportunities is scandalous. We need to sort it out, rather than blaming referees or 4th officials for making a decision. The solution is simple. Do not give them a decision to make.

 

i don`t disagree entirely with some of what you have written. what i will also say is i don`t blame the ref for us losing last night. despite the ref we were 3-2 up and blew the game through bad defending.

 

re your last paragraph, we are not treated the same as everyone else (and the everyone else includes the old firm). thats unfair no matter how you wrap it up.

 

i agree we shouldn`t give them so many opportunities and make ourselves an easy target but the sfa shouldn`t have targets in the first place. surely that is the real issue. each decision, bad tackle etc should be judged on its own merits not on the team or player involved.

[Francis Albert]

Yip they do.

 

Bad signings, bad tactical decisions, stupid tackles, bad individual decisions etc etc. There's more of them per game than there are bad officiating decisions.

 

get our house in order first then we can start lobbing grenades at the SFA.

Yes, and there are no shortage of threads lambasting bad signings, bad tactical decisions, stupid tackles, bad individual decisions etc etc. No-ones suggesting we shouldn't talk about them (or stop "lobbing grenades" at them).

[johnjl]

Yip they do.

 

Bad signings, bad tactical decisions, stupid tackles, bad individual decisions etc etc. There's more of them per game than there are bad officiating decisions.

 

get our house in order first then we can start lobbing grenades at the SFA.

 

i agree but surely we should be complaining about any injustice by refs/ the sfa as well as getting our house in order.

 

its not as if its an either/or situation is it?

[Cut The Crap]

Somehow it's entirely fitting that when a Hearts fans decides he doesn't fancy watching Hearts any more, then he looks around for someone else to blame.

 

While I don't accept we are being cheated by officialdom, I will concede that we are given no leeway whatsoever in cases of doubt. The correct response, as others have said, would be to become squeaky clean, at which point we could attack the injustice from a position of strength. Various managers have said they would do this, none of them has succeeded.

 

The week after JJ said he would clamp down on indiscipline, his first-team coach was sent to the stand after our goalkeeper saved a penalty justifiably awarded against us. Two weeks after that and the manager himself is in the stand after jumping up and down like a toddler when a decision (correctly) went against us Celtic Park. Little wonder that the players apparently can't control themselves when they see behaviour like this from their coaches and are (at least indirectly) relieved of responsibility for their actions by the continued nonsensical pronouncements of our owner.

 

Let's finally get our own house in order. Then we can start to complain.

[JKBMod 7]

Off-topic posts removed, don't let pointless bickering ruin a good debate folks.

[hawaii]

Somehow it's entirely fitting that when a Hearts fans decides he doesn't fancy watching Hearts any more, then he looks around for someone else to blame.

 

While I don't accept we are being cheated by officialdom, I will concede that we are given no leeway whatsoever in cases of doubt. The correct response, as others have said, would be to become squeaky clean, at which point we could attack the injustice from a position of strength. Various managers have said they would do this, none of them has succeeded.

 

The week after JJ said he would clamp down on indiscipline, his first-team coach was sent to the stand after our goalkeeper saved a penalty justifiably awarded against us. Two weeks after that and the manager himself is in the stand after jumping up and down like a toddler when a decision (correctly) went against us Celtic Park. Little wonder that the players apparently can't control themselves when they see behaviour like this from their coaches and are (at least indirectly) relieved of responsibility for their actions by the continued nonsensical pronouncements of our owner.

 

Let's finally get our own house in order. Then we can start to complain.

 

Can you answer my previous post #52 then please?

[jblair182]

A chum of mine isn't really into football or anything but recently started to take an interest in it and in Hearts particularly and have to admit that I just about keeled over with relief when the other day he mentioned that he thought it was pretty unfair how Hearts are treated by the media, referees and commentators. I swear to god this wasn't prompted by me in any way shape or form - I hadn't once alluded to my opinion on this sort of thing, I was too busy blethering about all the positives and doing the 'Hearts are GREAT because' thing - this is a view he came up with entirely by himself.

 

Relief might seem like a weird reaction but it was so refreshing to hear that I probably wasn't actually paranoid at all. I do worry sometimes that if you constantly look for issues you're probably always going to find something which fits your theory but as others on this thread have mentioned, there is this genuine and incessant nagging feeling that I just can't shake but which also feels completely rational. I think other clubs (mostly the OF) can be pretty clever in the way they make public comments about refereeing standards, it's very strategic. We don't play that game at the moment but we're going to have to get a little smarter in the way we handle it, that's for sure.

 

I can understand that feeling. I think there is definitely a PR issue in all of this. Since VR has been at the helm we have taken a massive PR hit with your average football fan. Now I couldn't give a flying **** about how a Motherwell fan thinks our club is run but there is (or perhaps has been) a unsavory association with Hearts in recent years. We definitely won't be "everybodys 2nd team" for a long time. Just look at Dundee United's cup win. It was greeted with a widespread pat on the back by Scottish football I definitely do not remember that feeling in 2006 or would not expect it in 2011 if we were to win. Success for teams like Hibs, Dundee United is greeted happily whereas when it's success for Hearts and possibly Aberdeen I do not feel the same positivity.

 

Im only 23 so despite enjoying 1998 and JJ's first tenure it was from a much less cynical vantage point. What are peoples opinions on how we were portrayed during our success that year and how that directly related to the refereeing decisions? It would seem we were more "neutral fan friendly" in 1998 and other fans (including refs) would have been encouraging our challenging of the OF rather than the bitterness that seemed obvious during the latter stages of 2005/06.

[Sheiky Baby]

In simple terms

 

GFA are vermin, always have been and always will be

[jblair182]

I don't know about the influence of the Levein issue. As much as it wouldn't have helped, I doubt refs are going out and toeing the SFA party line 6 years or so after the incident. Or maybe I'm just naive.

 

I just think if a ref dislikes Hearts it's because of his own personal issues.

[Sheepie]

A few questions for you Sheepie.

Have you ever had a player sent off on the say so of a 4th official.

Not to my knowledge

Have you ever been awarded a penalty only to have it reversed after opponents have persuaded the linesman to raise his flag and change the ref's mind.

Not to my knowledge but we have had penalties given against us on the say so of the linesman - ie ovr turning the refs decision of no foul.

 

These two points are purely about the officials doing their job. should they do their job or sit back and say nothing?

Co-incidence or something ulterior at play?

 

Do you regularly see opponents spoken to for persistent fouling only for one of your players to be booked for his first offence.

Yes. i'm sure all fans will say the same. also, fouls, regardless of being first, can be deserving of a yellow

 

Do you have players booked for leaving the pitch at a goal celebration only for opponents in the same game to receive a warning for the same offence.

We had a player given a 2nd yellow and subsequently sent off last season. soft? and yes, i have seen players given a warning where as other shave been booked.

 

Does your management team get spoken to/sent to the stand regularly yet opposition managers are free to wander onto the pitch and question decisions without punishment.

I'd question your management teams discipline as between different gaems with different officials, it is not comparable.

 

By no means do I say we are the only team that is on the receiving end of dodgy decisions but ever since Levein and the club stood up to the gFA (and won) we do seem to get more than our fair share.

 

Was the Levien incident about the same time as Vlad coming on board? Vlad with his spouting of this that and the other? with Vlad has come the eveyone is out to get us, it's everyone's fault but our own mind set bought into by the players and fans alike. Following this, the indisicipline has become rife in your club. This is not to say the Levein incident has not had an influence, maybe it has, I'm not in a position to say really but the behaviour and attitutde of the players, stemming from your great leader, has had an influence, no two ways about it. Maybe the refs have had just about enough of it, the whinging, the greeting, the beeling a nd though to **** with it?

[johnjl]

Was the Levien incident about the same time as Vlad coming on board? Vlad with his spouting of this that and the other? with Vlad has come the eveyone is out to get us, it's everyone's fault but our own mind set bought into by the players and fans alike. Following this, the indisicipline has become rife in your club. This is not to say the Levein incident has not had an influence, maybe it has, I'm not in a position to say really but the behaviour and attitutde of the players, stemming from your great leader, has had an influence, no two ways about it. Maybe the refs have had just about enough of it, the whinging, the greeting, the beeling a nd though to **** with it?

levein incident was before vlad.

 

maybe the refs have had enough of it. this would prove my point. each decision should be judged individually regardless of which player/club is involved or which owner has criticised the sfa. surely that is only fair?

[The Comedian]

The officials are a combination of incompetent and corrupt.

 

The end result is the same.

[Sheepie]

levein incident was before vlad.

 

maybe the refs have had enough of it. this would prove my point. each decision should be judged individually regardless of which player/club is involved or which owner has criticised the sfa. surely that is only fair?

 

How much before Vlad? what's the time line?

 

Fully agree it is fair to judge everything on it's own merits within the context each individual game.

[johnjl]

How much before Vlad? what's the time line?

 

Fully agree it is fair to judge everything on it's own merits within the context each individual game.

can`t remember but def. before vlad.

 

i think we overcomplicate this arguement if you agree taht everything should be judged on its own merits...etc.etc then things like- vlad slagging off the sfa shouldn`t have an influence. things like miko diving in the scotland - lith game shouldn`t matter.

 

my arguement is as the governing body of the game the sfa should be above all that and ensuring fairness ABOVE ALL ELSE is the minimum they should be doing for the game. when they introduce agendas which interfere with fair play such as-

 

refereeing old firm games differently

singling out miko

rangers/celtic getting the majority of decisions

refusing to look at video evidence of red cards (unless it involves the old firm)

 

then they can not do these things and remain fair.

 

unfair is a slippery slope to corruption. anything that corrupts the result of a match can result in changing the outcome of that entire competition making the whole thing nothing short of a sham.

[Sheepie]

I can understand that feeling. I think there is definitely a PR issue in all of this. Since VR has been at the helm we have taken a massive PR hit with your average football fan. Now I couldn't give a flying **** about how a Motherwell fan thinks our club is run but there is (or perhaps has been) a unsavory association with Hearts in recent years. We definitely won't be "everybodys 2nd team" for a long time. Just look at Dundee United's cup win. It was greeted with a widespread pat on the back by Scottish football I definitely do not remember that feeling in 2006 or would not expect it in 2011 if we were to win. Success for teams like Hibs, Dundee United is greeted happily whereas when it's success for Hearts and possibly Aberdeen I do not feel the same positivity.

 

Im only 23 so despite enjoying 1998 and JJ's first tenure it was from a much less cynical vantage point. What are peoples opinions on how we were portrayed during our success that year and how that directly related to the refereeing decisions? It would seem we were more "neutral fan friendly" in 1998 and other fans (including refs) would have been encouraging our challenging of the OF rather than the bitterness that seemed obvious during the latter stages of 2005/06.

 

I'll don my tin hat and give you my tuppence worth.

 

Pre Vlad HMFC and their support were much like all other non-OF teams and behaved as such. The early season success swelled the club and supports ego and arrogance crept in to an extent where you acted and behaved more like the OF than the others. Still evident to this day to some degree or another.

 

You point out that wlinning is not begrudged to some, it is the manner in which you win that is important.

[Sydney]

I honestly dont agree that there is a referees/SFA bias against Hearts.

 

After all, one of the worst decisions by a referee in a Scottish Cup final helped us - Stevie Fulton brought down outside the box in the first minute back in May 1998. Penalty given. Shocking decision. I didnt care though.

 

Shocker.

[Sydney]

I honestly dont agree that there is a referees/SFA bias against Hearts.

 

After all, one of the worst decisions by a referee in a Scottish Cup final helped us - Stevie Fulton brought down outside the box in the first minute back in May 1998. Penalty given. Shocking decision. I didnt care though.

 

Shocker.

 

I do agree that:

 

- Hearts discipline is terrible (players, management and "upstairs" management) - both on the pitch and (allegedly) in training/at tynie/at riccarton

- Refereeing standards in Scotland are ABYSMAL - they should be held to account. I say that fans from every team in the country get together and pay for one of the blue chip Accounting/Consulting firms to come and assess the refereeing ability and count the number of "bad" decisions.

- The SFA and the SFL and the SPL are all badly run, incompetent organisations, with ego and self-protection at their core.

[Acey]

Football fans are stupid and love selection bias. That's all there is to it.

 

I believe that Andy Davis was - and is - corrupt. I don't believe that the institution of refereeing in Scotland as a whole is corrupt.

[gowestjambo]

Morning mate.

 

OK lets open it up wider. Who actually benefits from all these decisions? If the fans of every club in the league feels their team is getting shafted then who ultimately is benefitting. It can't be the OF all the time. The OF win the league year in year out because they are better teams than the rest year in year out. They don't win the league by a point from a dodgy decision they tend to win it by 10 - 15 points.

 

I'm sorry but there is a creep of paranoia amongst Hearts management, players and fans which I really struggle to get my head around.

 

Last night is a classic case in point. we go one down. PARANOIA!!!! Craig Thomson gets sent off and we lose all shape and discipline completely until Jefferies gets them in at half time. we come out second half and make a game of it before running out of steam. Now what cost us last night?

 

I'm sorry i don't buy the great conspiracy against Hearts. For every game you can say the SFA done us over i'll bet you that you can look at the game's key incidents and actually see individual error or tactical error that cost the goal that cost the point or points. That's what football is all about.

 

As i said previously Hearts are pish easy to play against. Wind up certain players and wait for the implosion.

 

A lone voice of reason among cringeworthy ramblings.

 

Wether we do or dont get singled out, we should be prepared for it - we should use it as a motivator and develop a seige mentality. If we went out with the right attitude from the start and stuck 5 goals past teams it would not matter what anyone else does. We were playing falkirk for christs sake, quite frankly we should be able to beat a first division team with 10 men! Would anyone care to hazard a guess what would have happened if we were playing celtic at home, we were leading and they were down to 10 men..............

[johnjl]

Football fans are stupid and love selection bias. That's all there is to it.

 

I believe that Andy Davis was - and is - corrupt. I don't believe that the institution of refereeing in Scotland as a whole is corrupt.

 

the old firm have always benefited from decisions by refs they shouldn`t have got.

 

this corrupts the results of games therfore the results of competitions.

 

therefore it is corrupt.

 

hearts speak out against refs and the sfa more than most other (none old firm) clubs.

 

they are then given even less leeway by refs than other clubs and get treated differently.

 

corrupt to the absolute core.

[Cut The Crap]

Can you answer my previous post #52 then please?

 

Firstly, I don't believe it's all Hearts' fault. Secondly, I don't know if any other team has had a player sent off on the say-so of the fourth official or a penalty award overturned because of a linesman's intervention.

 

I do believe there is plenty we can do to clean up our own house before we start moaning about everybody else.

[redm]

I'll don my tin hat and give you my tuppence worth.

 

Pre Vlad HMFC and their support were much like all other non-OF teams and behaved as such. The early season success swelled the club and supports ego and arrogance crept in to an extent where you acted and behaved more like the OF than the others. Still evident to this day to some degree or another.

 

You point out that wlinning is not begrudged to some, it is the manner in which you win that is important.

 

If it had anything to do with the manner in which wins are achieved, the rest of your post must make absolutely no sense. No achievement we've had in recent years has been anything other than deserved and I'd love to hear where you think we might have won 'dirty' or similar?

 

As for arrogance, this is a line often trotted out by the Hibs support and evidence provided usually amounts to us singing "We are unbeatable" for a short while. We sang that because we were. We stopped once our run was done. I'd also love to hear how you think we managed to behave like OF fans - that's a peach. Y'know what I think about this theory? I think that we did something that the other bigger SPL clubs would love but have failed to do in recent years and while collectively there might be an appetite for breaking down the duopoly of the Old Firm, in real terms we were resented for it. Big time.

 

Might sound slightly snide to go for this line but I wholeheartedly believe that Aberdeen fans (and Hibs) were sick to the stomach that we had a season like that. We broke ranks and put ourselves between the OF and the rest of the SPL when we did that.

 

Jealousy is an ugly emotion, Sheepie.

[Acey]

they are then given even less leeway by refs than other clubs and get treated differently.

 

Prove it.

[Sheepie]

can`t remember but def. before vlad.

 

i think we overcomplicate this arguement if you agree taht everything should be judged on its own merits...etc.etc then things like- vlad slagging off the sfa shouldn`t have an influence. things like miko diving in the scotland - lith game shouldn`t matter.

 

my arguement is as the governing body of the game the sfa should be above all that and ensuring fairness ABOVE ALL ELSE is the minimum they should be doing for the game. when they introduce agendas which interfere with fair play such as-

 

refereeing old firm games differently

singling out miko

rangers/celtic getting the majority of decisions

refusing to look at video evidence of red cards (unless it involves the old firm)

 

then they can not do these things and remain fair.

 

unfair is a slippery slope to corruption. anything that corrupts the result of a match can result in changing the outcome of that entire competition making the whole thing nothing short of a sham.

 

The examples you give of agendas by the gverning body are nothing of the sort!

 

refereeing old firm games differently - an admission by refs that circumstances are different and as such, a different approach is taken. Not a directorate from the governing body to the best of my knowledge - please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

singling out miko - the mentioning of Miko following his dive against Scotland and a clamp down on diving in the Scottish game? Poor Miko. cut out diving imo.

 

rangers/celtic getting the majority of decisions - again not an (open) directorate from the governing body.

 

refusing to look at video evidence of red cards (unless it involves the old firm - a sole refs decision. since, the rules have changed.

[The Mighty Thor]

Yes, and there are no shortage of threads lambasting bad signings, bad tactical decisions, stupid tackles, bad individual decisions etc etc. No-ones suggesting we shouldn't talk about them (or stop "lobbing grenades" at them).

 

 

i agree but surely we should be complaining about any injustice by refs/ the sfa as well as getting our house in order.

 

its not as if its an either/or situation is it?

 

Gents you are both correct. What i'm trying to say in a cack handed way is that the majority of our fans current default position is that whatever goes wrong or whenever we get beat it's the fault of the SFA.

 

My argument is that we really need to get our house in order first and then from that platform we can then start to examine the other issues in the game. At the moment with our dreadful disciplinary record anything we say just comes across as us trying to deflect from our own shortcomings.

[Acey]

Gents you are both correct. What i'm trying to say in a cack handed way is that the majority of our fans current default position is that whatever goes wrong or whenever we get beat it's the fault of the SFA.

 

My argument is that we really need to get our house in order first and then from that platform we can then start to examine the other issues in the game. At the moment with our dreadful disciplinary record anything we say just comes across as us trying to deflect from our own shortcomings.

 

Exactly.

 

I'm guessing that this thread was prompted by Craig Thomson's sending off last night? Maybe the OP should've waited to see a replay of the incident before denouncing the "sham".

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Gents you are both correct. What i'm trying to say in a cack handed way is that the majority of our fans current default position is that whatever goes wrong or whenever we get beat it's the fault of the SFA.

 

My argument is that we really need to get our house in order first and then from that platform we can then start to examine the other issues in the game. At the moment with our dreadful disciplinary record anything we say just comes across as us trying to deflect from our own shortcomings.

 

Correct.

[Sydney]

The SFA sanctioned the transfer of Darren Barr's registration papers from Falkirk to Hearts.

 

Another clear sign of their corrupt anti-Hearts stance.

[The People's Chimp]

Football fans are stupid and love selection bias. That's all there is to it.

 

I believe that Andy Davis was - and is - corrupt. I don't believe that the institution of refereeing in Scotland as a whole is corrupt.

 

That selection bias is the reason that an independent refereeing assessment of the SPL over an entire season is necessary. I'd like to see it, but it's never going to happen.

[The Mighty Thor]

As ever at Hearts we tend to do things arse about face.

 

Here is what i think we should do.

 

I think we should invite the current SFA refereeing supervisor, and perhaps two of the SFA's 'top officials' (McDonald & Brines?) to Riccarton and go through video excerpts of Hearts games where we 'feel aggrieved' with the decisions and get the SFA to highlight where they feel we transgressed. I know full well they'll never discuss controversial decisions but get them to explain to us where we are going wrong. Get the SFA to explain to our players and management what rules we are breaking to pick up the soft bookings, get them to explain to the players the unacceptable conduct (especially to Jefferies, Brown & Locke) that gets us the yellow's that lead to reds.

 

Put the SFA on the spot by asking to work with them, by asking to get them to help us clean up our act. Surely that would flush out any bias towards Hearts wouldn't it?

 

We've had 10 years of butting heads with the SFA and we've got nowhere. Time to try something else.

[johnjl]

Prove it.

 

no. i wont prove it. if you can`t see it fine. plenty can. there have been numerous threads on this in the last few months and i refuse to repeat myself every fortnight.

 

you prove it aint so.

[Acey]

no. i wont prove it.

 

Because you can't.

 

you prove it aint so.

 

You can't disprove a negative.

[milky_26]

the way i see this debate, is that currently our players/coaching staff need to work on theor dicipline. Because IMO they give the ref a choice of making a decision. This is either with sly kicks (not seen CTs sending off yet so cant comment), back chat etc. If these things didn't happen less decisions would be required from the ref.

 

One problem though as has been mentioned is the consistency that these decisions are handed out. Booking players for their first tackle and giving other players warnings for persistent fouling. Reffing OF derbues differently (shouldn't happen and makes a mockery of indicipline fines as everyone is not on an even playing field). I have maroon tinted specs on (cant help it as i'm a fan), but it seems like we are more consistently puniched harder than other teams (but it seems to me that it happens more often agaisnt a select bunch of teams or people, OF, Aberdeen, pressly and by specific refs). I know that some times we do get the run of the green against others some of the time. But IMO that should not be happening, something that is a red card in one game should be one in all games.

 

as the liquidator has said a full season of independent refereeing assessment would be a great thing for scottish football but will never happen. This would help show if it was the refs causing a lot of this or if it was our own indicipline or a combination of both. It would also show to what degree it was happening to each club.

 

my views on refs are that there is bias in some of them (human nature there will be a little in everyone). Lots of our refs are poor and seem not to understand the rules or at least how to implement them. There is IMO a chance that at least 1 or 2 refs are corrupt, it happened in italy (germany as well i think) so why not here.

 

So to summarise

 

- Our dicipline is a problem and needs improved

-improving this would reduce the chances of any ref bias/corruption/uselessness

 

- Refereeing decisions need to be more consistent and games need to be reffed the same

-an independent review and appeals system would help to improve this along with the demotion of refs who perform poorly

[milky_26]

As ever at Hearts we tend to do things arse about face.

 

Here is what i think we should do.

 

I think we should invite the current SFA refereeing supervisor, and perhaps two of the SFA's 'top officials' (McDonald & Brines?) to Riccarton and go through video excerpts of Hearts games where we 'feel aggrieved' with the decisions and get the SFA to highlight where they feel we transgressed. I know full well they'll never discuss controversial decisions but get them to explain to us where we are going wrong. Get the SFA to explain to our players and management what rules we are breaking to pick up the soft bookings, get them to explain to the players the unacceptable conduct (especially to Jefferies, Brown & Locke) that gets us the yellow's that lead to reds.

 

Put the SFA on the spot by asking to work with them, by asking to get them to help us clean up our act. Surely that would flush out any bias towards Hearts wouldn't it?

 

We've had 10 years of butting heads with the SFA and we've got nowhere. Time to try something else.

 

thats a really interesting idea, and to avoid it looking like favouritism, they could do it with all other interested clubs. And by keeping a record of all correspondence if this was denied it may be possible to take it further, ie uefa or fifa as surely admitting there might be a problem with the clubs dicipline and trying to solve it would be of great benefit to the game.

[johnjl]

Because you can't.

 

 

 

You can't disprove a negative.

 

very clever acey. if i wore a cap i`d doff it in your direction. if you feel we get a fair deal from the sfa or shouldn`t speak out about old firm bias and the obvious aganda that refs have against our club then fine. i don`t and have stated the reasons why i think this on numerous threads. i`m not going to get into it all again solely for your benefit.

 

think what you want.

 

of course we should get our own house in order. of course we should sort out our discipline. that doesn`t stop us speaking out at injustice by refs and the sfa AS WELL.

[Victorian]

Exactly.

 

I'm guessing that this thread was prompted by Craig Thomson's sending off last night? Maybe the OP should've waited to see a replay of the incident before denouncing the "sham".

oh dear. i would normally have expected better from someone who is clearly a clever guy.

 

nowhere have i even suggested that the thread is in reaction to the incident last night, or that last night's red card is the sham. the fact is that i have been very careful to avoid creating doubt for those who should be intelligent enough to understand.

 

poor show acey.

[Acey]

very clever acey. if i wore a cap i`d doff it in your direction.

 

It's not being "very clever". It's basic logic.

 

 

if you feel we get a fair deal from the sfa or shouldn`t speak out about old firm bias and the obvious aganda that refs have against our club then fine. i don`t and have stated the reasons why i think this on numerous threads. i`m not going to get into it all again solely for your benefit.

 

I'm sorry that I haven't read your magnum opus on the topic, but you're quite a dull poster and I usually scroll right past your posts whenever I read the Terrace. I've yet to see any evidence of an "obvious agenda" against Hearts, and only Hearts, though.

 

think what you want.

 

Always do.

 

of course we should get our own house in order. of course we should sort out our discipline. that doesn`t stop us speaking out at injustice by refs and the sfa AS WELL.

 

Instances of injustice happen, and should be highlighted. My point is that this doesn't constitute an "obvious agenda", and you appear to know it too.

[Acey]

oh dear. i would normally have expected better from someone who is clearly a clever guy.

 

nowhere have i even suggested that the thread is in reaction to the incident last night, or that last night's red card is the sham. the fact is that i have been very careful to avoid creating doubt for those who should be intelligent enough to understand.

 

poor show acey.

 

Apologies, then, but you can understand that it really seems that way.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

nowhere have i even suggested that the thread is in reaction to the incident last night

 

Right enough, I'm sure the timing is just a coincidence and this thread would still have been started had we won 4-0 last night.

 

[johnjl]

It's not being "very clever". It's basic logic.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry that I haven't read your magnum opus on the topic, but you're quite a dull poster and I usually scroll right past your posts whenever I read the Terrace. I've yet to see any evidence of an "obvious agenda" against Hearts, and only Hearts, though.

 

 

 

Always do.

 

 

 

Instances of injustice happen, and should be highlighted. My point is that this doesn't constitute an "obvious agenda", and you appear to know it too.

 

wee sneaky insult thrown in there and winning the english standard grade arguement. well done you!

 

no more than i would expect from the like of you tbh. you never fail to fail and thrive on feeling superior in any way you can. petty and pathetic ass always. bravo acey

[Victorian]

Apologies, then, but you can understand that it really seems that way.

no need to apologise. i accept it can sometimes to easy to see such things as people trying to deflect blame and so on. it's more complicated... certainly for me it is.

 

i understand that people don't want to become serial complainers, and that's admirable. i do think that it's possible to admit to our own failings and also complain about secondary issues that are linked to it all.

[Victorian]

Right enough, I'm sure the timing is just a coincidence and this thread would still have been started had we won 4-0 last night.

 

 

i was surprised by acey not quite understanding the overall concept of the reasons for the thread, although he now appears to understand what i was trying to say a little more.

 

you on the other hand? not so much.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

i was surprised by acey not quite understanding the overall concept of the reasons for the thread, although he now appears to understand what i was trying to say a little more.

 

you on the other hand? not so much.

 

Well I understand enough to know fine well that however much you may protest otherwise, this thread wouldn't exist if last night hadn't went the way it went.

[Acey]

petty and pathetic ass always.

 

lol