Tonight's televised debate

[Boris]

Hahaha - this is genius.

 

http://daveschneider.co.uk/2010/04/camerons-notes/

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I did think I noticed a Scottish debate on STV last week.

 

If there's more happening then I honestly don't see what the SNP's problem is.

 

The SNP's problem is that Salmond doesn't want to talk to the Scottish electorate, he wants to play statesman with the big boys on national TV. He wants to beamed into the living rooms of Cardiff, Plymouth & Belfast to show he is 'el presidente' up here.

 

He would be well served to remember the words of a truly great Scot;

 

O wad some Power the giftie gie us, To see oursels as ithers see us

[Ossory_Jambo]

The SNP's problem is that Salmond doesn't want to talk to the Scottish electorate, he wants to play statesman with the big boys on national TV. He wants to beamed into the living rooms of Cardiff, Plymouth & Belfast to show he is 'el presidente' up here.

 

He would be well served to remember the words of a truly great Scot;

 

O wad some Power the giftie gie us, To see oursels as ithers see us

 

Yes and why do you think that might be. The SNP has no media backing whatsoever, a General Election or any other election for that matter offers him and his party a platform to promote Independence and to talk up Scottish aspirations on what should be a level playing field. In the three media conspired debates - that are all broadcast in Scotland - the leader of one of the biggest political parties in Scotland is being excluded from that platform, IMO that is an affront to democracy.

[rossthejambo]

Yes and why do you think that might be. The SNP has no media backing whatsoever, a General Election or any other election for that matter offers him and his party a platform to promote Independence and to talk up Scottish aspirations on what should be a level playing field. In the three media conspired debates - that are all broadcast in Scotland - the leader of one of the biggest political parties in Scotland is being excluded from that platform, IMO that is an affront to democracy.

 

Why would he want to promote independence for Scotland to people in England & Wales? What would it achieve exactly?

 

 

I can't quite understand that.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

To be honest I'm getting a bit fed up of the whinging from the SNP and Plaid about the whole issue. While this is a UK wide election its also, as many have pointed out, an election to the Parliament that affects most aspects of life for those living in England and some aspects of life for those in the Celtic nations. And every time we see Salmond's complaining smug face on TV whinging about this and that, boasting that he'll use the SNP MPs to extract additional spending (on top of the additional spending dictated by the Barnett formula) I think the day will come sooner and sooner when all the iniquities of the UK electoral system will be looked at and the result may not be to the liking of all.

 

As for the debate last night I thought Brown did okay, stuck to what he does best which is rattling off his 'tractor production statistics' but still came last. And I hope I'm not the only one who was appalled at how Nick Clegg glibly refused to address the question as to why party donors were making regular payments into his private bank account. Cameron did better than last week but only really wiped the floor with the others on the immigration discussion.

[Moriarty]

 

 

 

Personally I thought Gordon Brown did well last night, I feel a bit sorry for him tbh, he puts in a very solid performance and still comes in dead last.

 

IMO it was a dead heat between Brown and Clegg (who started poorly and got better as the debate went on), with Cameron coming in last. Not convinced by him at all.

[Rab]

Rab is a classic example of how people become more rabidly pro-Scottish and shortbread tin-ish, the further away from Scotland they live. There must be a mathematical formula that links distance to the degree of nationalist feeling. In fact, Rab is America's very own Sean Connery...

 

Cheers mate

 

I'm away to listen to my Corries CD.......

[Gorgiewave]

Rab is a classic example of how people become more rabidly pro-Scottish and shortbread tin-ish, the further away from Scotland they live. There must be a mathematical formula that links distance to the degree of nationalist feeling. In fact, Rab is America's very own Sean Connery...

 

 

Me too.

[Tynie b]

Yes and why do you think that might be. The SNP has no media backing whatsoever, a General Election or any other election for that matter offers him and his party a platform to promote Independence and to talk up Scottish aspirations on what should be a level playing field. In the three media conspired debates - that are all broadcast in Scotland - the leader of one of the biggest political parties in Scotland is being excluded from that platform, IMO that is an affront to democracy.

 

 

This is Premier League Politics...SNP and The Fat Smug faced leader are strictly 3rd Division!!

 

Why the hell would the people of Great Britain want to her the Welp Salmond prattle on about Independance in a TV debate about BRITISH Policies??

WTF has that got to do with Running a British Government??

 

I'm starting to think that it's between Brown and Clegg who'll get my vote!!

[JamboAl]

To be honest I'm getting a bit fed up of the whinging from the SNP and Plaid about the whole issue. While this is a UK wide election its also, as many have pointed out, an election to the Parliament that affects most aspects of life for those living in England and some aspects of life for those in the Celtic nations. And every time we see Salmond's complaining smug face on TV whinging about this and that, boasting that he'll use the SNP MPs to extract additional spending (on top of the additional spending dictated by the Barnett formula) I think the day will come sooner and sooner when all the iniquities of the UK electoral system will be looked at and the result may not be to the liking of all.

 

As for the debate last night I thought Brown did okay, stuck to what he does best which is rattling off his 'tractor production statistics' but still came last. And I hope I'm not the only one who was appalled at how Nick Clegg glibly refused to address the question as to why party donors were making regular payments into his private bank account. Cameron did better than last week but only really wiped the floor with the others on the immigration discussion.

 

Did he really?

I thought he was sweating like a Hibbie on derby day.

[The Mighty Thor]

Yes and why do you think that might be. The SNP has no media backing whatsoever, a General Election or any other election for that matter offers him and his party a platform to promote Independence and to talk up Scottish aspirations on what should be a level playing field. In the three media conspired debates - that are all broadcast in Scotland - the leader of one of the biggest political parties in Scotland is being excluded from that platform, IMO that is an affront to democracy.

 

Again there is a lot of confusion between this being a Westminster Election and not the Holyrood one. Salmond's campaign for self determination begins and ends in Holyrood. He's promised a referendum on the independence question and when that comes along we all get to have our say.

 

My point about Salmond is this. He's a bit like the undercover Hibs supporting members on this board. They keep their heads down but sooner or later they burst forth shout 'yam fuds' and get emptied. In his case he gets any national airtime and rather than be statesman like and offer a balanced view of world affairs affecting Scotland he, metaphorically speaking, gives it FREEEEEEEDOMMMMM!!!!!! with a load of parochial pish then you never hear from him for another few months.

 

Why is that an affront to democracy? What relevance does the First minister of Scotland have to a Westminster election when we have a devolved parliament? Why isn't Angus Robertson (nah i've never heard of him either!) doing the talking?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

FWIW, I scored it a no score draw between all of them.

 

I look forward to the economy debate given that all of them have been avoiding reality on that issue.

[Boris]

FWIW, I scored it a no score draw between all of them.

 

I look forward to the economy debate given that all of them have been avoiding reality on that issue.

 

 

On that, I'm surprised neither Brown or Clegg took Cameron to task about Clarke & Osbourne's comments re the IMF when "Dave" was pontificating about Labour "frightening" the electorate.

 

Seemed to me that was exactly what his colleagues were doing, while at the same time undermining the democratic will of the British people. I always thought we elected politicians to run the economy. Now it would appear, going by what the Tory chancellor wannabee said, is that it is the market that runs the politicians.

 

Yeah democracy!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

On that, I'm surprised neither Brown or Clegg took Cameron to task about Clarke & Osbourne's comments re the IMF when "Dave" was pontificating about Labour "frightening" the electorate.

 

Seemed to me that was exactly what his colleagues were doing, while at the same time undermining the democratic will of the British people. I always thought we elected politicians to run the economy. Now it would appear, going by what the Tory chancellor wannabee said, is that it is the market that runs the politicians.

 

Yeah democracy!

 

 

It's a fair point, but at the same time there was a truism there in that when the IMF were called in in 1976 (with a deficit a lot lower than it is now) there was a weak government in place. That said, the Lib Lab pact wasn't in place till 1977 so that should have been an easier thing to throw back.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

[/b]

 

Did he really?

I thought he was sweating like a Hibbie on derby day.

 

I think you'll find the conservatives far far ahead of the others on immigration, a huge issue with the vast majority of the electorate.

[rossthejambo]

I think you'll find the conservatives far far ahead of the others on immigration, a huge issue with the vast majority of the electorate.

 

 

Allegedly

[Boris]

It's a fair point, but at the same time there was a truism there in that when the IMF were called in in 1976 (with a deficit a lot lower than it is now) there was a weak government in place. That said, the Lib Lab pact wasn't in place till 1977 so that should have been an easier thing to throw back.

 

 

I suppose it follows only if you believe that a hung parliament will produce weak government.

 

It was funny on Newsnight last night when Liam Fox, Ashdown and Milliband were discussing the aftermath of the debate and Fox got all huffy saying how unfair it would be that Brown could still be PM if he came third.

 

Ashdown, of course, ripped him a new one explaining that instead of greeting about it and simply saying "vote for us not them" why didn't the Tories back electoral reform so Parliament is truly reflective of voters intentions?

 

Liam was quieter than a cat burglar going about his business.

 

The thing is that while that showed the Tories to be out of step, again it highlighted the bickering between Tory & Labour and how, due to these debates, the LD's are benefitting as they automatically come across as a fresh option. Everyone mentions change, but I reckon it's the LD's that benefit from this mantra as they are truly a change from the old see saw Lab/Con politics.

[Ossory_Jambo]

Why would he want to promote independence for Scotland to people in England & Wales? What would it achieve exactly?

 

 

I can't quite understand that.

 

I am not advocating that he would or should be promoting independence or his party's message to anywhere other than Scotland, my point is that broadcasting these debates in the format they have been has given the 3 main (UK parties) an overwhelming advantage in exposure to the electorate in Scotland. As I stated in previous posts a bit of creative programming by the broadcasters could have come up with a format that was more acceptable in each of the areas (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales), instead we had a gerrymandered series of debates giving the impression that this election is only about 3 parties (LAB, CON, and Cleggs lot), when quite clearly that is not the case in NI, Scotland and Wales.

 

Anyway thats enough for now, I'm away to attend a St. George's Day function!!

[Auld Reekin']

Again there is a lot of confusion between this being a Westminster Election and not the Holyrood one. Salmond's campaign for self determination begins and ends in Holyrood. He's promised a referendum on the independence question and when that comes along we all get to have our say.

 

My point about Salmond is this. He's a bit like the undercover Hibs supporting members on this board. They keep their heads down but sooner or later they burst forth shout 'yam fuds' and get emptied. In his case he gets any national airtime and rather than be statesman like and offer a balanced view of world affairs affecting Scotland he, metaphorically speaking, gives it FREEEEEEEDOMMMMM!!!!!! with a load of parochial pish then you never hear from him for another few months.

 

Why is that an affront to democracy? What relevance does the First minister of Scotland have to a Westminster election when we have a devolved parliament? Why isn't Angus Robertson (nah i've never heard of him either!) doing the talking?

 

 

This is absolute rubbish. Have you ever actually listened to what he has said in an interview or a speech? The unionist-lobby on here and elsewhere keep on trotting-out this tired old line, and that of Salmond and the SNP being "anti-English", but are never able to come up with any specific examples of these, nor any hard-evidence to support their sweeping statements.

 

Never let the facts get in the way of a juicy insult though, eh...?

[Boris]

It's a fair point, but at the same time there was a truism there in that when the IMF were called in in 1976 (with a deficit a lot lower than it is now) there was a weak government in place. That said, the Lib Lab pact wasn't in place till 1977 so that should have been an easier thing to throw back.

 

 

Breaking news on the BBC Election ticker...

 

1354: News of a blow to the Conservatives' claims that a hung parliament would hurt Britain's triple-A sovereign debt credit rating. One of the three main ratings agencies, Moody's, says it would not necessarily have direct implications, given the parties' broad agreement on the need to reduce the deficit.

[JamboAl]

I think you'll find the conservatives far far ahead of the others on immigration, a huge issue with the vast majority of the electorate.

 

Once more you are regurgitating nonsense from Tory newspapers etc and Dave's mouth.

The Tory policy, as per the manifesto, is based on limiting numbers but that does not cover illegal immigration. To cover that hole they WANT to tighten border controls which are wonderful words but to do this they would have to have a force bigger than the British Army at a time when they are also going to cut public expenditure, despite also paying married couples ?3 per week, abolishing the 1% NI increase and losing out on ?200,000 from the 3000 wealthiest people in the UK when they die. Dave must be the Paul Daniels of Westminster!

You'll notice that Dave always says what they WANT to do but seldom HOW he is going to do it and at what COST!

[Boris]

Once more you are regurgitating nonsense from Tory newspapers etc and Dave's mouth.

The Tory policy, as per the manifesto, is based on limiting numbers but that does not cover illegal immigration. To cover that hole they WANT to tighten border controls which are wonderful words but to do this they would have to have a force bigger than the British Army at a time when they are also going to cut public expenditure, despite also paying married couples ?3 per week, abolishing the 1% NI increase and losing out on ?200,000 from the 3000 wealthiest people in the UK when they die. Dave must be the Paul Daniels of Westminster!

You'll notice that Dave always says what they WANT to do but seldom HOW he is going to do it and at what COST!

 

 

At least the OAP's will still get their eyes tested.

 

Not sure if they'll get anything else mind, but "Dave" has put our money where his mouth is on that one!

[The Mighty Thor]

 

This is absolute rubbish. Have you ever actually listened to what he has said in an interview or a speech? The unionist-lobby on here and elsewhere keep on trotting-out this tired old line, and that of Salmond and the SNP being "anti-English", but are never able to come up with any specific examples of these, nor any hard-evidence to support their sweeping statements.

 

Never let the facts get in the way of a juicy insult though, eh...?

 

Yes i have listened to Mr Salmond many times, i've also been reading a lot of what he has had to say in the last few weeks too. That's why i said it's parochial pish. The country is, economically speaking, fecked. So what does the bold boy come up with? Holding the vote of the SNP's Westminster MP's to ransom to secure the funding he thinks Scotland should have. Never mind the fact that Scotland's public sector is bloated with duplication and waste. That's his plan. How is that going to help in bringing down the UK's deficit, which will affect what we all have to pay in taxes as they are (thankfully) outwith Mr Salmond's control?

 

I couldn't tell you what the 'unionist lobby' on here trot out mate, i'm not one of them.

 

There's no juicy insults from me the clue was in the 'metaphorically speaking'.

 

Here's an example of Mr Salmond's 'presidential' skills. After the leadership debate last night he's interviewed by Kay Burley on Sky for his thoughts. Does he give a balanced view on it? Does he feck, he whips out a flyer from Gordon Brown's constituency party from January and starts waving it about like an excited school laddie calling Brown a liar.

 

I have no issue with Scottish independence but i fear under Salmond we'd be a Western European Banana Republic, without the bananas.

[The Mighty Thor]

You'll notice that Dave always says what they WANT to do but seldom HOW he is going to do it and at what COST!

 

Next Thursday should see 'Call me Dave' grilled on the HOW and the COST. I suspect Brown and Clegg will give him a tag team hiding as his sums don't add up* (assuming you can actually find any figures at all from Gideon on anything they are planning to do)

[JamboAl]

At least the OAP's will still get their eyes tested.

 

Not sure if they'll get anything else mind, but "Dave" has put our money where his mouth is on that one!

Yes - under severe pressure to get himself out of a hole!

[JamboAl]

Next Thursday should see 'Call me Dave' grilled on the HOW and the COST. I suspect Brown and Clegg will give him a tag team hiding as his sums don't add up* (assuming you can actually find any figures at all from Gideon on anything they are planning to do)

 

Wa stalking to one of our candidates last night (won't name which party) and was told that Clegg himself might come under fire as his sums don't add up.

A large proportion of his savings come from Trident etc and P.10 of his Easy Read manifesto says that they will get rid of nuclear deterrents IF other countries do. The Tories are 100% up front on this one (if you can believe anything they say).

[Glamorgan Jambo]

Next Thursday should see 'Call me Dave' grilled on the HOW and the COST. I suspect Brown and Clegg will give him a tag team hiding as his sums don't add up* (assuming you can actually find any figures at all from Gideon on anything they are planning to do)

 

I suspect they'll do nothing of the sort.

 

By the way talking of doublethink I saw Brown claim that a tax reduction was needed to get the economy started (VAT) and in the following sentence state that without a tax increase (NI) the economy would stall.

 

Of course the main issue is what Cameron likes to be addressed as informally and what name George Osborne was given at birth.

[Auld Reekin']

Yes i have listened to Mr Salmond many times, i've also been reading a lot of what he has had to say in the last few weeks too. That's why i said it's parochial pish. The country is, economically speaking, fecked. So what does the bold boy come up with? Holding the vote of the SNP's Westminster MP's to ransom to secure the funding he thinks Scotland should have. Never mind the fact that Scotland's public sector is bloated with duplication and waste. That's his plan. How is that going to help in bringing down the UK's deficit, which will affect what we all have to pay in taxes as they are (thankfully) outwith Mr Salmond's control?

 

SNP policy, like that of all the other major parties, includes efficiency-savings on public-sector spending. A keystone of their policy is the scrapping of the Trident defence system, and not commissioning a replacement for it, which would put an enormous sum back into the Scottish / UK econcomy.

 

I couldn't tell you what the 'unionist lobby' on here trot out mate, i'm not one of them.

 

Glad to hear it. I wasn't really trying to lump you in with that particular motley collection of weel-kent blow-hards on here: it was more of an observation on your apparent support for a unionist party.

 

There's no juicy insults from me the clue was in the 'metaphorically speaking'.

 

Yes - I do understand what a "metaphor" is. Your statement was hardly complimentary though, was it?

Here's an example of Mr Salmond's 'presidential' skills. After the leadership debate last night he's interviewed by Kay Burley on Sky for his thoughts. Does he give a balanced view on it? Does he feck, he whips out a flyer from Gordon Brown's constituency party from January and starts waving it about like an excited school laddie calling Brown a liar.

 

Maybe it contained some lies by Gordon Brown. Perhaps Salmond was, in his own inimitable manner, trying to draw attention to this. I agree that he can be, at times, unnecessarily abrasive in his approach* and would perhaps benefit from sometimes holding back from "putting the boot in". (Metaphorically speaking...)

 

* something of a national characteristic, perhaps...?

 

I have no issue with Scottish independence but i fear under Salmond we'd be a Western European Banana Republic, without the bananas.

 

Really?

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I suspect they'll do nothing of the sort.

 

By the way talking of doublethink I saw Brown claim that a tax reduction was needed to get the economy started (VAT) and in the following sentence state that without a tax increase (NI) the economy would stall.

 

Of course the main issue is what Cameron likes to be addressed as informally and what name George Osborne was given at birth.

 

I think Cameron knows that there are two things that his party's policies won't stand up to rigorous scrutiny on, the economy and Europe. The Economy will be the focus in next week's debate and regardless of how often Dave shouts out 'jobs tax' it won't deflect from scrutiny of his policy.

 

You are of course correct and i'm letting my personal prejudices come through in my usage of Dave & Gideon. I'll carry on though if that's alright with you?

 

You do touch on the central issue though and that is the amount of 'doublethink' or BS being spouted on the economy. The truth about the parlous state of our economy is at a premium from the main parties.

[rossthejambo]

I suspect they'll do nothing of the sort.

 

By the way talking of doublethink I saw Brown claim that a tax reduction was needed to get the economy started (VAT) and in the following sentence state that without a tax increase (NI) the economy would stall.

 

Of course the main issue is what Cameron likes to be addressed as informally and what name George Osborne was given at birth.

 

 

The main issue I have is that the Tory's have made policies that are impossible to follow through on.

 

Where are they getting all the money to create a whole new Border Patrol Force (for example) without some sort of tax increase?

 

To be fair to Labour at least they've came out and said exactly what they're planning to increase to cut the deficit and the Lib Dem's have made it fairly clear how they're going to create funding.

[The Mighty Thor]

FAO Auld Reekin'

 

Scottish Independence? No issues with it at all. If there is the quality of individual in place in the Scottish Parliament to take Scotland forward in self governance then i'm all for it. I personally don't think Salmond is that man nor do i think his team are anywhere near strong enough.

 

Speaking of which..............Did you catch Nicola Sturgeon talking to the Edinburgh council worker on BBC Scotland news last night. It was a meeting of a comparatively intellectual heavyweight and Scotland's Deputy First Minister. The boy was subsequently suspended by the council, but not before he totally owned her.

 

linky here http://www.scotsman.com/news/Nicola-Sturgeon-quiz-gets-bin.6248849.jp

 

As i say a Salmond & Sturgeon dream team? No thanks. Nicola Sturgeon makes Sarah Palin look like Indira Ghandi

[Patrick Bateman]

Speaking of which..............Did you catch Nicola Sturgeon talking to the Edinburgh council worker on BBC Scotland news last night. It was a meeting of a comparatively intellectual heavyweight and Scotland's Deputy First Minister. The boy was subsequently suspended by the council, but not before he totally owned her.

 

 

He didn't 'own' her - he spouted a load of nonsense because he failed to understand that Edinburgh City Council and the Scottish Government are separate entities, and Sturgeon had no place to make a comment and certainly isn't allowed to influence these particular matters. It's actually embarrassing that this idiot will think he had a point.

[The Mighty Thor]

He didn't 'own' her - he spouted a load of nonsense because he failed to understand that Edinburgh City Council and the Scottish Government are separate entities, and Sturgeon had no place to make a comment and certainly isn't allowed to influence these particular matters. It's actually embarrassing that this idiot will think he had a point.

 

And Sturgeon as Deputy first minister in the Scottish Parliament is out campaigning in a Westminster election (along with justice secretary Kenny McAskill) for why?????? I think there's a difficulty all round in separating Westminster & Holyrood don't you?

 

IMO the bin man had a legitimate point though as the SNP, her party, run the city of Edinburgh council with the Lib Dems.

 

Do you not think that a guy facing a ?5,000 wage drop whilst his bosses are getting ?6,000 & ?8,000 increases has a point?

 

I also thought his most salient point was that "she doesn't know what's going on in her country"

[Patrick Bateman]

And Sturgeon as Deputy first minister in the Scottish Parliament is out campaigning in a Westminster election (along with justice secretary Kenny McAskill) for why?????? I think there's a difficulty all round in separating Westminster & Holyrood don't you?

 

IMO the bin man had a legitimate point though as the SNP, her party, run the city of Edinburgh council with the Lib Dems.

 

Do you not think that a guy facing a ?5,000 wage drop whilst his bosses are getting ?6,000 & ?8,000 increases has a point?

 

I also thought his most salient point was that "she doesn't know what's going on in her country"

 

Westminster Parties have been perfectly content to campaign in Scotland on devolved issues. I'd agree that it points to the flaws in being part of a two-tiered political system.

 

The bin man had a point, but he was directing it to the wrong person in the wrong circumstances. It isn't Sturgeon's job to know about the minutia of local government/council issues, nor would it be right for her to comment on something like this, which, as I've said, is out with her jurisdiction, so to speak. She's the MSP for Govan, after all. As for your comparisons to Sarah Palin... what a load of nonsense. Sarah Palin is in the Dan Quayle school of downright idiocy. Whether you like or dislike Sturgeon, she certainly isn't an idiot.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

The main issue I have is that the Tory's have made policies that are impossible to follow through on.

 

Where are they getting all the money to create a whole new Border Patrol Force (for example) without some sort of tax increase?

 

To be fair to Labour at least they've came out and said exactly what they're planning to increase to cut the deficit and the Lib Dem's have made it fairly clear how they're going to create funding.

 

You're right that there is less detail in the conservative manifesto on revenue and spending than in the Labour one. One of the reasons for this is the unprecendented refusal of the government to allow the opposition access to the detailed public spending and revenue forecasts generated by the Civil Service.

 

The clear difference in emphasis between the conservatives and Labour/Lib Dems is their attitude towards cuts in public spending. In fact mostly they're not cuts but freezes and lower rates of growth in expenditure than currently planned. I personally believe that this will be a much better way to get the economy moving than ever increased levels of taxation, particularly on companies.

 

 

By the way I don't think Labour and the Lib Dems have been particularly clear about how they plan to reduce the deficit. To give one example we've already seen that the replacement of Trident with 'something else' by Vince Cable has resulted in the assumption that 'something else' will cost nothing. What's sure is that whoever wins the election there will be another budget shortly (labour likely will call it something else) as unfortunately indirect and direct taxes (on indviduals) will have to rise even further. Its a shame the Tories have back tracked a bit on what Kenneth Clarke brought up the other day comparing the state of gov't finances today than with the last time the IMF were called in because IMO he was bang on. The risk premium that the UKs lenders (who mostly are based overseas) are asking on government debt is about to go up substantially.

[The Mighty Thor]

Westminster Parties have been perfectly content to campaign in Scotland on devolved issues. I'd agree that it points to the flaws in being part of a two-tiered political system.

 

The bin man had a point, but he was directing it to the wrong person in the wrong circumstances. It isn't Sturgeon's job to know about the minutia of local government/council issues, nor would it be right for her to comment on something like this, which, as I've said, is out with her jurisdiction, so to speak. She's the MSP for Govan, after all. As for your comparisons to Sarah Palin... what a load of nonsense. Sarah Palin is in the Dan Quayle school of downright idiocy. Whether you like or dislike Sturgeon, she certainly isn't an idiot.

 

Agreed. This election campaign is highlighting the flaws in our current system.

 

To be fair to the binman she shoved her nose in his cab complete with accompanying TV crews and didn't get the banal flesh pressing opportunity she thought she would. Brilliant. The boy took her to task after she stuck her nose in and rightly so. The Westminster election is outwith her jurisdiction in reality.

 

I wouldn't say she's an idiot but i would suggest regional/local politics is her level. Could you imagine sending her to take Scotland's seat at the international table?

[The Mighty Thor]

 

 

 

By the way I don't think Labour and the Lib Dems have been particularly clear about how they plan to reduce the deficit. To give one example we've already seen that the replacement of Trident with 'something else' by Vince Cable has resulted in the assumption that 'something else' will cost nothing.

 

IIRC the nil return in this by Vince Cable was because they wouldn't be replacing it in the fiscal period covered by the proposed manifesto (5 years through to 2016?)

[Glamorgan Jambo]

IIRC the nil return in this by Vince Cable was because they wouldn't be replacing it in the fiscal period covered by the proposed manifesto (5 years through to 2016?)

 

Ah right so the defence review to reopen the 2007 decision won't cost anything and the outcome, whatever it is, won't require any expenditure for at least 5 years.

[The Mighty Thor]

Ah right so the defence review to reopen the 2007 decision won't cost anything and the outcome, whatever it is, won't require any expenditure for at least 5 years.

 

I never said he was right.

 

There is of course a wider debate on what if anything the country needs in terms of nuclear deterrent in a post cold-war world, not forgetting a growing realisation amongst Britons that we aren't a big power any more in global terms.

[Therapist]

With nutter states like Iran, North Korea, India, Pakistan etc in possession of or acquiring nuclear weapons I certainly want Britain to have a suitable deterrent and Trident fits the bill for me.

[Big D]

Yes i have listened to Mr Salmond many times, i've also been reading a lot of what he has had to say in the last few weeks too. That's why i said it's parochial pish. The country is, economically speaking, fecked. So what does the bold boy come up with? Holding the vote of the SNP's Westminster MP's to ransom to secure the funding he thinks Scotland should have. Never mind the fact that Scotland's public sector is bloated with duplication and waste. That's his plan. How is that going to help in bringing down the UK's deficit, which will affect what we all have to pay in taxes as they are (thankfully) outwith Mr Salmond's control?

 

I couldn't tell you what the 'unionist lobby' on here trot out mate, i'm not one of them.

 

There's no juicy insults from me the clue was in the 'metaphorically speaking'.

 

Here's an example of Mr Salmond's 'presidential' skills. After the leadership debate last night he's interviewed by Kay Burley on Sky for his thoughts. Does he give a balanced view on it? Does he feck, he whips out a flyer from Gordon Brown's constituency party from January and starts waving it about like an excited school laddie calling Brown a liar.

 

I have no issue with Scottish independence but i fear under Salmond we'd be a Western European Banana Republic, without the bananas.

 

The current Scots government has already saved ?160m in public sector from the previous Unionist administration. That's through smarter public procurement, shared back offices and sensible asset management. Imagine how much more could be saved if they were allowed the economic levers of a normal grown up country. As far as "yes we have no bananas" goes. You are aware we have 25% of the total potential renewable energy resources for the whole of Europe. A fair bit of oil still to go to. 20% of Europes fisheries, and many of the brightest, talented and efficient businessmen and academics in Europe.

[Therapist]

The current Scots government has already saved ?160m in public sector from the previous Unionist administration. That's through smarter public procurement, shared back offices and sensible asset management. Imagine how much more could be saved if they were allowed the economic levers of a normal grown up country. As far as "yes we have no bananas" goes. You are aware we have 25% of the total potential renewable energy resources for the whole of Europe. A fair bit of oil still to go to. 20% of Europes fisheries, and many of the brightest, talented and efficient businessmen and academics in Europe.

 

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

These "talented and efficient businessmen" you refer to....would they be the same corner shop/sole trader outfits that Fat Alex claimed were the "100 top business leaders" who were backing his last Scottish Parliament campaign?

 

I absolutely slaughtered a rabid SNP supporter over that one...don't make me do it to you. Oh, wait, you've not changed your name have you?

[leginten]

If people can't see the democratic problem with these debates I really do despair. We do not operate a presidential system. This isn't X Factor, it's about running a country. The three main unionist parties have received a disproportionate amount of attention in Scotland and have aired opinions on devolved matters which they have no legislative control over, and are therefore misleading voters. It's shameful.

 

This is the best post I've read on the subject of the democratic deficit that afflicts these debates. This deficit stems from the sad reality that the BBC as an organisation has neither the intelligence nor the imagination to come to terms with devolution and the way it has transformed the political landscape of the UK - it's like a rabbit caught in the headlights. It's not even at first base. Unfortunately I don't see it emerging from its time-warp any time soon. The pretence will continue that voters all over the UK are really only choosing between three parties in this election. A scandal, but we ought to be accustomed to it by now.

[Therapist]

Vince Cable

 

Vince is like someone's doddery old uncle. Brain dead and bland, but harmless, so one doesn't want to say anything that might upset him.

[Therapist]

This is the best post I've read on the subject of the democratic deficit that afflicts these debates. This deficit stems from the sad reality that the BBC as an organisation has neither the intelligence nor the imagination to come to terms with devolution and the way it has transformed the political landscape of the UK - it's like a rabbit caught in the headlights. It's not even at first base. Unfortunately I don't see it emerging from its time-warp any time soon. The pretence will continue that voters all over the UK are really only choosing between three parties in this election. A scandal, but we ought to be accustomed to it by now.

 

It's a national not regional election. The BNP have far more relevance to the national debate than the SNP does.

 

But even if that weren't the case, the Great British Public don't want to have to sit through side shows like Alex "I love myself" Salmond - they'd rather see the three parties that can be regarded as serious contenders debate the issues of the day.

[leginten]

It's a national not regional election. The BNP have far more relevance to the national debate than the SNP does.

 

But even if that weren't the case, the Great British Public don't want to have to sit through side shows like Alex "I love myself" Salmond - they'd rather see the three parties that can be regarded as serious contenders debate the issues of the day.

 

People in Scotland will be voting in this election. Their state broadcaster has given disproportionate coverage to three parties (one of which currently boasts one MP in Scotland), thereby creating an impression that there are three choices. Furthermore, the leaders of these three parties have been addressing viewers in Scotland via the BBC on certain matters over which they have no say - at best irrelevant, at worst misleading, but in any case completely inappropriate.

[Therapist]

thereby creating an impression that there are three choices

 

So you're saying Scots are thick?

 

The fact of the matter is the national agenda will be influenced by only three parties, hence the coverage - not just by the BBC, but also ITV and Sky.

 

Maybe if Scots like you could get the sack of tatties off their shoulder we might look for positives, instead of negatives - real or imagined.

[The Mighty Thor]

The current Scots government has already saved ?160m in public sector from the previous Unionist administration. That's through smarter public procurement, shared back offices and sensible asset management. Imagine how much more could be saved if they were allowed the economic levers of a normal grown up country. As far as "yes we have no bananas" goes. You are aware we have 25% of the total potential renewable energy resources for the whole of Europe. A fair bit of oil still to go to. 20% of Europes fisheries, and many of the brightest, talented and efficient businessmen and academics in Europe.

 

The ?160m saved scratches the surface of the restructuring required in Scotland. We have 3 tiers of authority and the waste is phenomenal.

 

I think you've missed my point about independence. I'm not running down Scotland or the Scots, i'm feverently patriotic and not at all embarrassed to be Scottish. I'm saying that we don;t have the depth of talent or resource at government level to take Scotland forward in any of the 3 parties. There's no John Smith out there, there's only Alex Salmonds, Anabelle Goldies and Jim Murphys. God help us all.

[leginten]

So you're saying Scots are thick?

 

The fact of the matter is the national agenda will be influenced by only three parties, hence the coverage - not just by the BBC, but also ITV and Sky.

 

Maybe if Scots like you could get the sack of tatties off their shoulder we might look for positives, instead of negatives - real or imagined.

 

Certainly part of the electorate is "easily influenced" - how do you think mince like Jim Devine, Ann Moffat and the rest of the Cental Belt Labour mafia gets elected (and apologies if I've reminded you of your New Labour-voting days)? The reason parties participate in these debates and scrabble for as much Party Political Broadcast time as they can get is that media exposure equals votes - it's quite simple.

 

Maybe if "Scots" like you adopted a more analytical approach instead of dealing in stereotypes, we'd have a more forward-looking society anyway.

[shaun.lawson]

I suspect they'll do nothing of the sort.

 

By the way talking of doublethink I saw Brown claim that a tax reduction was needed to get the economy started (VAT) and in the following sentence state that without a tax increase (NI) the economy would stall.

 

Of course the main issue is what Cameron likes to be addressed as informally and what name George Osborne was given at birth.

 

I can't stand Cameron, and now realise his soft focus 'compassionate Conservatism' was purely a cover for him to appear nice and centrist while Blair was PM before reverting right back to the old, intolerant, right wing bullshit as soon as Brown took over. But I do agree with you here. Twice now, Brown has hilariously described someone opposing a tax rise as "taking money out of the economy". Even more hilariously, Cameron has let him make the accusation unchallenged.

 

With nutter states like Iran, North Korea, India, Pakistan etc in possession of or acquiring nuclear weapons I certainly want Britain to have a suitable deterrent and Trident fits the bill for me.

 

We'll have a suitable deterrent regardless. It's called the United States of America. This whole debate is an utter charade: the UK has never had the ability to fire a nuclear weapon without the US giving permission first, meaning we waste colossal amounts of money on something we don't need.

 

Vince is like someone's doddery old uncle. Brain dead and bland, but harmless, so one doesn't want to say anything that might upset him.

 

Complete gibberish. You don't become Chief Economist of Shell (which I realise doesn't suggest Cable is a particularly nice guy, but ah well) by being "brain dead", Therapist.