Who is the better centre half?

[Coco]

Yes.

 

This is Zaliukas' 3rd season in the first team.

 

I don't think he's showing any signs of improvement. Can fully understand why any Hearts fan would suggest that we would be a better team without Zaliukas in it.

[leginten]

Substantiation is somewhat lacking in the posts referred to.

 

Do you honestly believe that all of the pejorative anti-Zaliukas one-liners are based on considered observation of the player and his abilities or lack of?

 

I do, yes.

When certain players showed slightly improved form in the first few games of this season, they were given due praise on here. Zaliukas was one of them. His form has nosedived again, though, in my opinion, and he has again received criticism. As far as I'm concerned, that's the way it works. People have been delighted to give Miko, for example, a lot of praise for his improved performances this season. He'll never be everyone's darling, but then again nor will Robbie Neilson.

[HMFCjamieHMFC]

Zaliukas is the next Franz Beckenbauer

[Guest JamboRobbo]

 

Talk about leaps of logic! This is of olympic standard!!

It is you that is inferring that any reference to "prejudice" equates to some form of racism. I simply said that, in my experience, the first to complain are usually guilty (in this case of being prejudiced).

 

 

If it's not racism you're suggesting, please feel free to explain what form of prejudice you were accusing people of.....

[Charlie-Brown]

There are no Hearts supporters who are racists or xenophobes on JKB or at Tynecastle, the BNP and NF never tried recruiting at Hearts matches, no Hearts supporters have KKK or C18 tattoos or badges or T-Shirts, none of these people ever drink in Robertsons bar (Green Tree) or the Balmoral (Auld Worthies)....nothing to see please move along.

[Thunderstruck]

I do, yes.

When certain players showed slightly improved form in the first few games of this season, they were given due praise on here. Zaliukas was one of them. His form has nosedived again, though, in my opinion, and he has again received criticism. As far as I'm concerned, that's the way it works. People have been delighted to give Miko, for example, a lot of praise for his improved performances this season. He'll never be everyone's darling, but then again nor will Robbie Neilson.

 

There's where we differ. I think a lot of the anti-Zal stuff comes from insecure, attention seeking wee boys who latch on to what they think is the fashion.

 

As I have said (enough times to make it boring), I would be more persuaded by those who are critical of a performance if they were able to find it within themselves to give praise when it is due. Unfortunately, Zaliukas was condemned in some quarters before he kicked a ball for Hearts as a form of proxy vote against Vlad and these individuals will never give him credit for a good performance.

 

As I said somewhere in the pages above, Zaliukas is not without his faults but they are not insurmountable - good coaching and encouragement will improve any player. He has just turned 25 - still young for a centre back.

[Coco]

There are no Hearts supporters who are racists or xenophobes on JKB or at Tynecastle, the BNP and NF never tried recruiting at Hearts matches, no Hearts supporters have KKK or C18 tattoos or badges or T-Shirts, none of these people ever drink in Robertsons bar (Green Tree) or the Balmoral (Auld Worthies)....nothing to see please move along.

 

The conjunction of the above post with a discussion of the footballing merits of the Hearts centre halves is quite disgusting.

[leginten]

There are no Hearts supporters who are racists or xenophobes on JKB or at Tynecastle, the BNP and NF never tried recruiting at Hearts matches, no Hearts supporters have KKK or C18 tattoos or badges or T-Shirts, none of these people ever drink in Robertsons bar (Green Tree) or the Balmoral (Auld Worthies)....nothing to see please move along.

 

 

I think (and this is obviously subjective) that if you take a global view of things since the beginning of the Romanov revolution, the kind of fans and posters you mention above have come down very much in favour of "Mr Romanov" and his decisions, and are far more likely to have posted in favour of underperforming imports than against.

[Thunderstruck]

If it's not racism you're suggesting, please feel free to explain what form of prejudice you were accusing people of.....

 

I'm afraid I can't reduce this to words of one syllable for you so the best I can do is give you a couple of quotes ....

 

"The word prejudice refers to prejudgment: making a decision before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case or event."

 

"Any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence."

 

The root of the word is in latin...

praejudicium, from prae ?in advance? and judicium ?judgement?

 

It is this rush to judgement that gives rise to posts in JKB at 1650 on a Saturday afternoon criticising a player who actually had a good game. Posts made, incidentally, by individuals who, quite clearly, were not in Inverness at the time.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

There are no Hearts supporters who are racists or xenophobes on JKB or at Tynecastle, the BNP and NF never tried recruiting at Hearts matches, no Hearts supporters have KKK or C18 tattoos or badges or T-Shirts, none of these people ever drink in Robertsons bar (Green Tree) or the Balmoral (Auld Worthies)....nothing to see please move along.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself for writing that in the context of this thread. Absolute joke. Even Koslovski didn't go that far.

[Thunderstruck]

There are no Hearts supporters who are racists or xenophobes on JKB or at Tynecastle, the BNP and NF never tried recruiting at Hearts matches, no Hearts supporters have KKK or C18 tattoos or badges or T-Shirts, none of these people ever drink in Robertsons bar (Green Tree) or the Balmoral (Auld Worthies)....nothing to see please move along.

 

A thread-stopper if ever I read one. Time for the Mods to lock it before it descends to the depths.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I'm afraid I can't reduce this to words of one syllable for you so the best I can do is give you a couple of quotes ....

 

"The word prejudice refers to prejudgment: making a decision before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case or event."

 

"Any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence."

 

The root of the word is in latin...

praejudicium, from prae ‘in advance’ and judicium ‘judgement’

 

It is this rush to judgement that gives rise to posts in JKB at 1650 on a Saturday afternoon criticising a player who actually had a good game. Posts made, incidentally, by individuals who, quite clearly, were not in Inverness at the time.

 

 

Sounds to me like a load of fancy bs which says nothing. You're throwing around vague accusations of prejudice, but don't have the bottle to say what you feel that prejudice is based on, thereby denying anyone the right to debate or defend themselves from your wild accusations.

[Charlie-Brown]

You should be ashamed of yourself for writing that in the context of this thread. Absolute joke. Even Koslovski didn't go that far.

 

Iam ashamed that Hearts have a minority of supporters with those beliefs - but let's not pretend there isn't a range of those beliefs among some Hearts supporters from mildly xenophobic to full on racists, it would be strange that some of those opinions weren't reflected on JKB - just as there are supporters who post a spectrum of sectarian/loyalist viewpoints - let's not kid ourselves that there is no prejudice at Tynecastle is all iam saying. I didn't say it related to this thread although there are some posters who let themselves down with some of the things they post which when repeated so often lead to them being percieved as less than fair minded in their attitudes towards certain Hearts players.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Iam ashamed that Hearts have a minority of supporters with those beliefs - but let's not pretend there isn't a range of those beliefs among some Hearts supporters from mildly xenophobic to full on racists, it would be strange that some of those opinions weren't reflected on JKB - just as there are supporters who post a spectrum of sectarian/loyalist viewpoints - let's not kid ourselves that there is no prejudice at Tynecastle is all iam saying. I didn't say it related to this thread although there are some posters who let themselves down with some of the things they post which when repeated so often lead to them being percieved as less than fair minded in their attitudes towards certain Hearts players.

 

I'm awaiting a response to any of the points I made in the thread. I see you're avoiding them cause they show up your accusations for what they are - a load of bs.

 

Here's one for a starter.

 

Do you Nade suddenly became scottish this season? Or is he just playing better, therefore not an object of derision?

[John S]

In terms of who is the better CH between the two, I think it hammers home how spoilt we have been over the years with quality CHs

 

To be honest, at this stage neither Marius Zaliukas or Christophe Berra can be assessed as an outstanding prosepct, but of the two it is Christophe who continues to grow, learn and develop with each passing game and he looks like he will become a hugely relaible CH - certainly good enough for us and will most likely go on to a 'bigger' club. He's perhaps missed something by being thrown in at the deep end without a more experienced CH to guide him through his learning years, and in making him the club captain I dont think the club have done him any favours, so its to his immense credit that he is maturing into a fine player.

 

Marius Zaliukas.........? There was a time when he wouldn't have got a game for Hearts reserves. Maybe a decent lad maybe not, but as for a quality footballer - not for me, and in honesty I'm surprised at some of the names who have voted for him.

[leginten]

I didn't say it related to this thread although there are some posters who let themselves down with some of the things they post which when repeated so often lead to them being percieved as less than fair minded in their attitudes towards certain Hearts players.

 

I would say you've summed up your rantings about Robbie Neilson pretty neatly here.

[Thunderstruck]

Sounds to me like a load of fancy bs which says nothing. You're throwing around vague accusations of prejudice, but don't have the bottle to say what you feel that prejudice is based on, thereby denying anyone the right to debate or defend themselves from your wild accusations.

 

OK then, the Janet and John version.......

 

There are a number of people who post opinion that is based on what they think is the current fashion rather than what they observe on the field of play.

 

It is similar to saying that John Sergeant was less than graceful on the dancefloor without actually watching SCD or criticising Ross/Bland without listening to the actual Radio2 broadcast.

 

I am sure that if, God forbid, you found yourself in front of a Jury, you would want the decision based on the facts and not on the second-hand opinions of others.

 

Some people like bandwagons and they will climb on and spout the party line without arriving at their own opinion based on consideration of the facts.

 

If that particular cap fits........

[Charlie-Brown]

I would say you've summed up your rantings about Robbie Neilson pretty neatly here.

 

Robbie rantings bad, Zaliukas/Mikoliunas/anybody-auskas-or-avicius rantings good.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

OK then, the Janet and John version.......

 

There are a number of people who post opinion that is based on what they think is the current fashion rather than what they observe on the field of play.

 

It is similar to saying that John Sergeant was less than graceful on the dancefloor without actually watching SCD or criticising Ross/Bland without listening to the actual Radio2 broadcast.

 

I am sure that if, God forbid, you found yourself in front of a Jury, you would want the decision based on the facts and not on the second-hand opinions of others.

 

Some people like bandwagons and they will climb on and spout the party line without arriving at their own opinion based on consideration of the facts.

 

If that particular cap fits........

 

Well, I've calmed down and thought about it, and I reckon your cap does fit me.

 

I'm prejudiced.

 

Prejudicide against players who make mistakes over and over again.

[leginten]

Robbie rantings bad, Zaliukas/Mikoliunas/anybody-auskas-or-avicius rantings good.

 

What's the difference, Charlie? You're more than happy to play the race card on here, it seems, but when it comes down to it your own opinions on a particular Hearts player are pretty extreme. Do foreign players deserve exemption from criticism for crap performances?

[The Merse]

No surprise to see that the most staunch Vlad apologists have voted for Zaliukas.

[Thunderstruck]

Well, I've calmed down and thought about it, and I reckon your cap does fit me.

 

I'm prejudiced.

 

Prejudicide against players who make mistakes over and over again.

 

I'll bear that in mind and tomorrow's word of the day will be "redemption".

 

Anyway, enough of this, I'm off for some fine Glaswegian cuisine - a West End Curry.

[Bordeaux 03]

Both are as bad as each other, Berra isn't as good as we all think he is and Zali is just going through a bad patch just now.

[Charlie-Brown]

What's the difference, Charlie? You're more than happy to play the race card on here, it seems, but when it comes down to it your own opinions on a particular Hearts player are pretty extreme. Do foreign players deserve exemption from criticism for crap performances?

 

No of course not, crap players are crap players - I don't object to the criticism it is when it is not even handed ie similar mistakes made by other players ignored whilst concentrating on the 'villains' , Jonsson played as poorly as anybody in last couple of games but nobody is villifying him, Neilson & Wallace or Goncalves before him weren't known as No.2 or No.3 or as Robbie-useless or Jose Gonclueless etc. Makela has been as bad as any player but no names or threads about him compared to cartoon characters etc. The eastern europeans seem to take a disproportionate amount on blame, criticism and abuse when others have performed equally as bad or worse but depending on who it is it's sometimes overlooked. In my opinion.

[bighusref]

There are no Hearts supporters who are racists or xenophobes on JKB or at Tynecastle, the BNP and NF never tried recruiting at Hearts matches, no Hearts supporters have KKK or C18 tattoos or badges or T-Shirts, none of these people ever drink in Robertsons bar (Green Tree) or the Balmoral (Auld Worthies)....nothing to see please move along.

 

Distasteful in the extreme.

 

I really did not expect that from you.

[leginten]

No of course not, crap players are crap players - I don't object to the criticism it is when it is not even handed ie similar mistakes made by other players ignored whilst concentrating on the 'villains' , Jonsson played as poorly as anybody in last couple of games but nobody is villifying him, Neilson & Wallace or Goncalves before him weren't known as No.2 or No.3 or as Robbie-useless or Jose Gonclueless etc. Makela has been as bad as any player but no names or threads about him compared to cartoon characters etc. The eastern europeans seem to take a disproportionate amount on blame, criticism and abuse when others have performed equally as bad or worse but depending on who it is it's sometimes overlooked. In my opinion.

 

 

I disagree.

 

Mole - vilified.

Elliot - vilified

Neilson - vilified

Nade - vilified

Makela - vilified

Pressley - vilified

 

They've all been called much worse things than No.29 on here. Usually it begins with the letter "c".

The fact is that we've had an influx of players from Lithuania. A lot of them have played a lot of matches. When they have played badly, they've been pilloried, just the same as anyone else is. Obua isn't Eastern European, and he's coming in for a lot of stick - because people don't see what he offers.

 

The other angle you probably won't want to acknowledge is that a lot of the sticking up for Lithuanian players whose form at the time has not justified their selection has been done by posters desperate to justify the actions of Romanov and the committee over the last three years. The playing of the race card is the most distasteful manifestation of this siege mentality.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

No of course not, crap players are crap players - I don't object to the criticism it is when it is not even handed ie similar mistakes made by other players ignored whilst concentrating on the 'villains' , Jonsson played as poorly as anybody in last couple of games but nobody is villifying him, Neilson & Wallace or Goncalves before him weren't known as No.2 or No.3 or as Robbie-useless or Jose Gonclueless etc. Makela has been as bad as any player but no names or threads about him compared to cartoon characters etc. The eastern europeans seem to take a disproportionate amount on blame, criticism and abuse when others have performed equally as bad or worse but depending on who it is it's sometimes overlooked. In my opinion.

 

WRONG.

 

'Jobby Neilson' 'Bombscare Goncalves'

[Charlie-Brown]

I disagree.

 

Mole - vilified.

Elliot - vilified

Neilson - vilified

Nade - vilified

Makela - vilified

Pressley - vilified

 

They've all been called much worse things than No.29 on here. Usually it begins with the letter "c".

The fact is that we've had an influx of players from Lithuania. A lot of them have played a lot of matches. When they have played badly, they've been pilloried, just the same as anyone else is. Obua isn't Eastern European, and he's coming in for a lot of stick - because people don't see what he offers.

 

The other angle you probably won't want to acknowledge is that a lot of the sticking up for Lithuanian players whose form at the time has not justified their selection has been done by posters desperate to justify the actions of Romanov and the committee over the last three years. The playing of the race card is the most distasteful manifestation of this siege mentality.

 

Other players have been criticised & given stick and i don't have a problem with Kaunas players been given stick either - it is the disproportionate way they are blamed/villified and the mocking names seem to be exclusively reserved for them ie Zaliclueless yet not Gonclueless, Beniuseless not Make-useless etc. Strikes me as odd in the motivation for this.

[magicTs]

No of course not, crap players are crap players - I don't object to the criticism it is when it is not even handed ie similar mistakes made by other players ignored whilst concentrating on the 'villains' , Jonsson played as poorly as anybody in last couple of games but nobody is villifying him, Neilson & Wallace or Goncalves before him weren't known as No.2 or No.3 or as Robbie-useless or Jose Gonclueless etc. Makela has been as bad as any player but no names or threads about him compared to cartoon characters etc. The eastern europeans seem to take a disproportionate amount on blame, criticism and abuse when others have performed equally as bad or worse but depending on who it is it's sometimes overlooked. In my opinion.

 

Paranoid nonsense. Trying to keep in with somebody !?

[Charlie-Brown]

Paranoid nonsense. Trying to keep in with somebody !?

 

No just calling it as i see it, lee wallace has cost us as many or more goals than zaliukas this season but one gets pilloried way more than the other.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

No just calling it as i see it, lee wallace has cost us as many or more goals than zaliukas this season but one gets pilloried way more than the other.

 

The problem is, No.26 has been utter crap his ENTIRE Hearts career.

 

Anyone can see he is out of his depth. Well anyone apart from the Romanov apologists.

[leginten]

Other players have been criticised & given stick and i don't have a problem with Kaunas players been given stick either - it is the disproportionate way they are blamed/villified and the mocking names seem to be exclusively reserved for them ie Zaliclueless yet not Gonclueless, Beniuseless not Make-useless etc. Strikes me as odd in the motivation for this.

 

No way. If Berra or Neilson had made the costly mistakes Zaliukas has this season there'd be lynch mobs out. And if any player from any country had shown himself as completely unsuited for the SPL as has Ksanavicius, there would have been outrage.

Re nicknames: you're being very selective here. Were people being racist when they changed Frail's name to Fail? How about Jobby Neilson? Judas Pressley? I'm assuming you've posted in the past to protest about this?

[The Merse]

No just calling it as i see it, lee wallace has cost us as many or more goals than zaliukas this season but one gets pilloried way more than the other.

 

Lee Wallace was slagged silly earlier on in the season.

[Charlie-Brown]

No way. If Berra or Neilson had made the costly mistakes Zaliukas has this season there'd be lynch mobs out. And if any player from any country had shown himself as completely unsuited for the SPL as has Ksanavicius, there would have been outrage.

Re nicknames: you're being very selective here. Were people being racist when they changed Frail's name to Fail? How about Jobby Neilson? Judas Pressley? I'm assuming you've posted in the past to protest about this?

 

I haven't seen very many instances of the second nickname in my time on JKB however no these people were not being racist just stupid.

[Drylaw Hearts]

There are no Hearts supporters who are racists or xenophobes on JKB or at Tynecastle, the BNP and NF never tried recruiting at Hearts matches, no Hearts supporters have KKK or C18 tattoos or badges or T-Shirts, none of these people ever drink in Robertsons bar (Green Tree) or the Balmoral (Auld Worthies)....nothing to see please move along.

 

A new low has been reached.

[Martin_T]

A new low has been reached.

 

Charlie has been getting away with strewing around accusations of xenephobia on KB for some years now. For his newest low, he should at very least be suspended from the forum for some time.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Charlie has been getting away with strewing around accusations of xenephobia on KB for some years now. For his newest low, he should at very least be suspended from the forum for some time.

 

Ah say we tar and feather him!!!!!!!!

 

The weird world of Charlie.

 

Double standards are all he has to offer.

[Charlie-Brown]

Charlie has been getting away with strewing around accusations of xenephobia on KB for some years now. For his newest low, he should at very least be suspended from the forum for some time.

 

What forum rules did I break Martin? Do these people not exist? You might have broken one or two with your post though regards admin/moderator policy & decisions

[Martin_T]

What forum rules did I break Martin? Do these people not exist? You might have broken one or two with your post though regards admin/moderator policy & decisions

 

You've broken the unwritten rule of:

 

"Thou shalt not resort to accusing people of racism, when one has run out of any credible arguments"

 

Sound enough reason for some time in the sin bin in my eyes.

[Charlie-Brown]

You've broken the unwritten rule of:

 

"Thou shalt not resort to accusing people of racism, when one has run out of any credible arguments"

 

Sound enough reason for some time in the sin bin in my eyes.

 

But it's okay to accuse people of sectarian/bigoted beliefs?

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

But it's okay to accuse people of sectarian/bigoted beliefs?

 

There are certainly a few on this forum who fit the bill.

 

I do not think you do as your "xenophobia" is political and is centred round your Vlad-love agenda. So you bend it to suit your purposes

 

You are no racist, I am certain.

 

However I strongly suspect you are deluded almost beyond repair.

[Martin_T]

But it's okay to accuse people of sectarian/bigoted beliefs?

 

I think you can quite rightly accuse someone of something if you have some evidence of what you accuse them of..

 

However in your own warped wee world:

 

Slag off Scottish player - Fair criticism

Slag off Lithuanian player - xenephobe

 

...with your latest line of argument being that Lithuanian players get given nicknames where as other players do not, conveniently ignoring of course 'Bambi' Goncalves, 'Clum' Elliot, 'Jobbie' Neilson etc etc.

 

You have become a caricature of yourself Charlie. The very fact you raised the fact that Hearts have some racist fans (and I've witnessed the element you mention with my own eyes, so I know they exist) on this thread, suggests you think there is some connection between Hearts fans rating Berra over Zaliukas and xenephobia. The biggest irony of all this of course is that Cristophe Berra is half French and as a consequence I would imagine, catholic. Doesn't quite fit in with the xenephobe argument does it?

[Big Al]

Karipidis is a better centre half than them both.

 

 

this is as far as I've read this thread, it's the best answer here.

 

as for the poll, like the result Berra is better by a country mile

[Charlie-Brown]

I think you can quite rightly accuse someone of something if you have some evidence of what you accuse them of..

 

However in your own warped wee world:

 

Slag off Scottish player - Fair criticism

Slag off Lithuanian player - xenephobe

 

...with your latest line of argument being that Lithuanian players get given nicknames where as other players do not, conveniently ignoring of course 'Bambi' Goncalves, 'Clum' Elliot, 'Jobbie' Neilson etc etc.

 

You have become a caricature of yourself Charlie. The very fact you raised the fact that Hearts have some racist fans (and I've witnessed the element you mention with my own eyes, so I know they exist) on this thread, suggests you think there is some connection between Hearts fans rating Berra over Zaliukas and xenephobia. The biggest irony of all this of course is that Cristophe Berra is half French and as a consequence I would imagine, catholic. Doesn't quite fit in with the xenephobe argument does it?

 

My post wasn't related to this thread Martin, I was having this debate on another thread but posted here by mistake and by the time i noticed it was too late to edit & post it on the relevant thread (about No29).

 

For the record I don't have any problem with people criticising Zaliukas or Ksanavicius or any other player as long as their criticism is honest & fair however there are a number of posters who will criticise certain players in a certain way but don't apply those same standards or posting style to other players - that is what makes me dubious about them - not that they criticised any particular player. If I think some of them are xenophobes them I am entitled to that opinion and as long as I don't break forum rules then Iam entitled to post that certain posters opinions could be construed in a certain way because of the disproportionate way & style of their criticism.....or indeed in some cases they might just actually be prejudiced.

[portobellojambo1]

There are no Hearts supporters who are racists or xenophobes on JKB or at Tynecastle, the BNP and NF never tried recruiting at Hearts matches, no Hearts supporters have KKK or C18 tattoos or badges or T-Shirts, none of these people ever drink in Robertsons bar (Green Tree) or the Balmoral (Auld Worthies)....nothing to see please move along.

 

How the feck did a thread which had what seemed like a fairly simple choice on offer, i.e. whom do you think is the better central defender Berra or Zaliukas (which as thread titles go seems about as harmless as you can get), bring out a reply like the above.

 

I'm just glad the choice wasn't "who do you think was the better Hearts centre forward, Robertson or Beniusis". We would all be getting strung up as card carrying, tattooed, t-shirt wearing members of each and every one of the above organisations.

[Charlie-Brown]

How the feck did a thread which had what seemed like a fairly simple choice on offer. i.e. whom do you think is the better central defender Berra or Zaliukas (which as thread titles go seems about as harmless as you can get) bring out a reply like the above.

 

Wrong thread PJ1. My mistake.

[Martin_T]

Wrong thread PJ1. My mistake.

 

You are quite proud of yourself for thinking of that excuse aren't you Charlie? Why didn't you own up to your mistake immediately then, as opposed to arguing the toss on several subsequent posts?

[JAYEL]

Ali1874, bigman, BringBackPhilStamp, Dexter, freddiemac, H J Simpson, HMFC dave, interista, JAYEL, John Titor, keep hearts beating, KisLas, lejuge28, Liutas, OOSHA, robbodog, Romanov Stole My Pension, Sub4TiddlerMurray, tneafry

 

 

All hang your heads in shame.

 

I will never hang my head in shame for supporting a player who pulls on a Hearts jersey.

 

 

Unlike some.

 

 

Some people only see what they want to see especially when it involves Lithuanian players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Martin_T]

I will never hang my head in shame for supporting a player who pulls on a Hearts jersey.

 

 

Unlike some.

 

 

Some people only see what they want to see especially when it involves Lithuanian players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

Yup, which is why last season Calum Elliot was roundly lauded on this forum and Velicka received a barage of criticism as a useless Lith.

[KisLas]

Berra is a bit better at the moment but voted for Zaliukas