Who is the better centre half?

[Drylaw Hearts]

No, you and i are maybe talking about a different incident.

 

I think we are though.

 

I do not recall Berra passing the ball straight to a Falkirk player over at the Wheatfield side of the pitch in the 2nd Half and then Zaliukas making a great tackle in the box.

 

However....

 

I do recall it being the other way round.

 

 

[Fozzyonthefence]

Berra exposed himself when he ran away into no-mans land when the man he was marking received the ball.

 

 

Not exactly a role model for the kids then? He should be stripped of the captaincy immediately if this is true!! I wonder if the TV cameras picked this up? Could increase the female & gay viewing figures for Sportscene.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

You would have blamed him for not following his man.

 

Zal made a mistake (as did Neilson before Zal............but that does not count as you are only 2 go back as far as Zals involvement) but that does not mean Berra is blameless for the next phase of play, where he ran away from the man he was marking when that player received the ball.

 

What would that achieve if everyone gave up after a collegue made a mistake?

 

If Neilson hadn't tried a wee flick, if Zal had not missed his tackle, if Berra had stayed with his man, if Balogh had not come out so far there woulkd not have been a chance..................it happened and there are a few culprits. But unlike what some of you want, the players acted like a team and fought out a win.

 

The point is, with others, you can see what they were trying to do, you can see understand why it went wrong etc etc. Everyone makes mistakes.

 

But with Zal, it's absolute basics. Knowing when to attack a ball and when not to cause there's no chance of gettig there. He gets it wrong time after time after time after time. With no sign of improvement, and no sign of learning from his mistakes.

 

If he was a youngster (e.g. 16 year old in the youths) I'd say it could still be coached out of him. At the age he's at (24? 25?), I think it's a little late for that.

[Gambo]

The point is, with others, you can see what they were trying to do, you can see understand why it went wrong etc etc. Everyone makes mistakes.

 

But with Zal, it's absolute basics. Knowing when to attack a ball and when not to cause there's no chance of gettig there. He gets it wrong time after time after time after time. With no sign of improvement, and no sign of learning from his mistakes.

 

If he was a youngster (e.g. 16 year old in the youths) I'd say it could still be coached out of him. At the age he's at (24? 25?), I think it's a little late for that.

 

And it is basics not to run away (and into no mans land) from your man when he has the ball, is it not basics when no-one is anywhere near you that you don't head the ball needlessly out of the park?

 

We have a team full of players who make basic errors every game, not just Zaliukas.

[Eggo]

little changes around this place

 

 

Its called humour,talking of which...how did the by-pass go?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Its called humour,talking of which...how did the by-pass go?

 

Same here.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

And it is basics not to run away (and into no mans land) from your man when he has the ball, is it not basics when no-one is anywhere near you that you don't head the ball needlessly out of the park?

 

We have a team full of players who make basic errors every game, not just Zaliukas.

 

Sorry, but it sounds to me like you don't know what you're talking about to be honest.

[boabyarsebiscuit]

Well done the OP.

 

An excellent way of flushing out "undercover hobos" which will no doubt meet with the approval of the Romanov McCarthyites on here.

[wavydavy]

Following some 'debate' on another thread, who of Hearts two current first choice centre halves do you rate as the better player in that position?

 

Can't believe that you are even asking this question, it is so obvious that there can only ever be one winner and that has got to be Berra every time.

 

Even when he is not playing particularly well he is still a far better player than the "Bombscare:eek:

[Gambo]

Sorry, but it sounds to me like you don't know what you're talking about to be honest.

 

Was it good defending by Berra? (Ignore Zal, his mistake had happened by then and has been critisised for it).

 

I'll make it easier for you..................player A ( a defender) is marking an opponent on the halfway line who receives the ball to feet................do you

 

A stick with him and make him pass the ball back the way

B stick with him and make him make a sideways pass

C stick with him and let him try and beat you with a bit of skill trickery

or

D run away from the man and the ball?

[Gambo]

Sorry, but it sounds to me like you don't know what you're talking about to be honest.

 

So our players do not make basic errors every game?

[CBjambo]

There is absolutely no contest here... I mean FFS Makela is probably a better CB!

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Was it good defending by Berra? (Ignore Zal, his mistake had happened by then and has been critisised for it).

 

It wasn't particularly good or bad by Berra. Once the mistake had been made which exposed us, it's damage limitation really. Whatever decision he makes, leaves us exposed. He goes to the man, leaving his man free. Or he stays with his man, allowing Zals man free run at him and 2 on 1.

 

With hindsight, he might have limited the damage better by backing off. But the real solution to the problem, is to rid ourselves of the source of the repeated mistakes.

 

I'll make it easier for you..................player A ( a defender) is marking an opponent on the halfway line who receives the ball to feet................do you

 

A stick with him and make him pass the ball back the way

B stick with him and make him make a sideways pass

C stick with him and let him try and beat you with a bit of skill trickery

or

D run away from the man and the ball?

 

Or Player Z(al) makes another blunder letting his man in behind him with the ball again. Do you

 

A. go to the ball to try and cover for his mistake

B. stick with your man, allowing the other player to run up the park unhindered.

 

For me, yes it is possible that we could sign superman, and ask him to cover up for Zal's mistakes every week. But the easier solution, would be to get rid of the boy constantly making mistakes in the first place.

[MackaysCentreSpot]

OP what a long way round for a short cut. You go to the trouble of setting up a poll seemingly to get your point over that you do not rate Zali and Berra is a better central defender.

 

Did you really have to get the views of others to try and justify your point. Why not just come out and state that you think Berra is a better CD than Zali.

 

Would have been quicker and easier.

[Jammy T]

Well at least Csaba recognises Zaliukas had the most gash moments:

 

"In the first half the players made the same mistake and we gave our opponents the opportunity for counter situations. Especially Zaliukas, who stood behind his opponents badly."

[Gambo]

It wasn't particularly good or bad by Berra. Once the mistake had been made which exposed us, it's damage limitation really. Whatever decision he makes, leaves us exposed. He goes to the man, leaving his man free. Or he stays with his man, allowing Zals man free run at him and 2 on 1.

 

.

 

If Jonsson had not pooped himself and got on the end of Nades knock on, if Neilson had not flicked it up in the air aimlessley, if Karipidis had challenged the boy who flicked it on for Zals missed tackle instead of standing back admiring him, if Zal had not messed up his tackle, if Berra had not run away, if Wallace had covered Berra quicker, if Balogh had not came out his box.................yet only one man to take any sort of blame, says it all.

 

Zal as a defender went for a tackle, he failed with it (missed tackles do happen), Berra as a defender RAN AWAY from his man who had the ball yet is totally blameless.

 

Defender trying to do a defenders job is blamed whilst the defender who ran away from his man he was marking and who had the ball is blameless.

 

Unlike you, i will share the blame for that goal with all guilty parties and not just at one player.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

If Jonsson had not pooped himself and got on the end of Nades knock on, if Neilson had not flicked it up in the air aimlessley, if Karipidis had challenged the boy who flicked it on for Zals missed tackle instead of standing back admiring him, if Zal had not messed up his tackle, if Berra had not run away, if Wallace had covered Berra quicker, if Balogh had not came out his box.................yet only one man to take any sort of blame, says it all.

 

Zal as a defender went for a tackle, he failed with it (missed tackles do happen), Berra as a defender RAN AWAY from his man who had the ball yet is totally blameless.

 

Defender trying to do a defenders job is blamed whilst the defender who ran away from his man he was marking and who had the ball is blameless.

 

Unlike you, i will share the blame for that goal with all guilty parties and not just at one player.

 

And unlike you, I can see the difference between a competent individual making the odd mistake, and in incompetent individual repeatedly making the same mistakes week after week after week.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Well at least Csaba recognises Zaliukas had the most gash moments:

 

"In the first half the players made the same mistake and we gave our opponents the opportunity for counter situations. Especially Zaliukas, who stood behind his opponents badly."

 

I'm sure 93% of Jambos, and Csaba, are wrong, and Gambo is right though.

[Gambo]

With hindsight, he might have limited the damage better by backing off. But the real solution to the problem, is to rid ourselves of the source of the repeated mistakes.

 

 

 

 

There are other debates ongoing about Zal's(your source of repeated mistakes) inclussion in the team, this debate is not about that, but about does Berra (along with others) have to take some of the blame for Saturdays goal.

[MackaysCentreSpot]

If Jonsson had not pooped himself and got on the end of Nades knock on, if Neilson had not flicked it up in the air aimlessley, if Karipidis had challenged the boy who flicked it on for Zals missed tackle instead of standing back admiring him, if Zal had not messed up his tackle, if Berra had not run away, if Wallace had covered Berra quicker, if Balogh had not came out his box.................yet only one man to take any sort of blame, says it all.

 

Zal as a defender went for a tackle, he failed with it (missed tackles do happen), Berra as a defender RAN AWAY from his man who had the ball yet is totally blameless.

 

Defender trying to do a defenders job is blamed whilst the defender who ran away from his man he was marking and who had the ball is blameless.

 

Unlike you, i will share the blame for that goal with all guilty parties and not just at one player.

 

A very good post. It has always been the same as far as some players are concerned. Some can do no right and get abuse yet others can do nothing wrong.

 

One misses a tackle or gives a bad then he is sh*te, a useless bas*ard etc etc but another player does the same and he is unlucky or nothing is said.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

There are other debates ongoing about Zal's(your source of repeated mistakes) inclussion in the team, this debate is not about that, but about does Berra (along with others) have to take some of the blame for Saturdays goal.

 

If you're being pedantic about it, this debate is about "Who is the better centre half" ..........unless I've lost the ability to read thread titles.

 

Seems your desperation to pin some blame on Berra is getting the better of you though, and you're turning it into a debate over whether Berra should take some blame.

 

Don't let the thread subject get in the way of finding an excuse to squirm out of admitting Zal deserves to be dropped though.

[MackaysCentreSpot]

I'm sure 93% of Jambos, and Csaba, are wrong, and Gambo is right though.

 

 

JR you can not use that poll result to state that.

 

The poll asks the question, Who is the better centre half? and not, Is Zali a sh*te defender.

 

So you can not use the figures for that question to back up your arguement mate.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

JR you can not use that poll result to state that.

 

The poll asks the question, Who is the better centre half? and not, Is Zali a sh*te defender.

 

So you can not use the figures for that question to back up your arguement mate.

 

 

Gambo has repeatedly claimed there is nothing to choose between the two. I think the poll clearly shows that most people think there is something to choose between them.

[Gambo]

A very good post. It has always been the same as far as some players are concerned. Some can do no right and get abuse yet others can do nothing wrong.

 

One misses a tackle or gives a bad then he is sh*te, a useless bas*ard etc etc but another player does the same and he is unlucky or nothing is said.

 

About sums it up.

[Gambo]

If you're being pedantic about it, this debate is about "Who is the better centre half" ..........unless I've lost the ability to read thread titles.

 

Seems your desperation to pin some blame on Berra is getting the better of you though, and you're turning it into a debate over whether Berra should take some blame.

 

Don't let the thread subject get in the way of finding an excuse to squirm out of admitting Zal deserves to be dropped though.

 

 

Nice avoidence of the question from a poster who rigidly sticks to what the thread title is about.

 

My opinions on Saturdays goal is nothing about liking Berra more than Zal or vice versa. it is about who made mistakes in the lead up to the goal. I say there was more (incl Berra) than just Zal at fault. Unfortunately you cannot bring youself to admit that Berra has to take some of the blame.

[MackaysCentreSpot]

Gambo has repeatedly claimed there is nothing to choose between the two. I think the poll clearly shows that most people think there is something to choose between them.

 

But be honest mate that is not what you were using the result of that poll to say.

[chester copperpot]

Ali1874, bigman, BringBackPhilStamp, Dexter, freddiemac, H J Simpson, HMFC dave, interista, JAYEL, John Titor, keep hearts beating, KisLas, lejuge28, Liutas, OOSHA, robbodog, Romanov Stole My Pension, Sub4TiddlerMurray, tneafry

 

 

All hang your heads in shame.

[MackaysCentreSpot]

Tsk Tsk CC.

 

Imagine naming users in a thread where they have not posted.

 

You rule breaker you.

[Coco]

Ali1874, bigman, BringBackPhilStamp, Dexter, freddiemac, H J Simpson, HMFC dave, interista, JAYEL, John Titor, keep hearts beating, KisLas, lejuge28, Liutas, OOSHA, robbodog, Romanov Stole My Pension, Sub4TiddlerMurray, tneafry

 

 

All hang your heads in shame.

 

In light of the result so far, would be interesting if some of the Zaliukas fans were to explain why they think he is better than Berra.

[Jammy T]

Is Zali a sh*te defender.

 

.

 

That's a rhetorical question, right?

[Dave 1974]

I think Berra is better, albeit marginally.

 

Both are more than capable SPL defenders and both have different attributes. Berras pace differentiates him from most centre halfs though and would be the harder to replace.

 

That said I think Berra tends to get a light ride of it when he balls up, whereas Zaliuckas gets absolutley crucified for anything and not very much praise when he deserves it.

 

I am happy with both and think they are a pretty good centre half pairing, I dont think Berra is as good as some on here make out and I dont think Zaliuckas is anywere near as bad as people make out

 

Re Karipidis- not a fan of him tbh, not suited to the scottish game as a cemtre half and too limited for the right back spot.

 

If we had to put anyone into centre half as cover for me it would McGowan and tbh Im amazed he doesnt get at least a few sub appearences

 

Agree with all this. Shocking, but true...

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Ali1874, bigman, BringBackPhilStamp, Dexter, freddiemac, H J Simpson, HMFC dave, interista, JAYEL, John Titor, keep hearts beating, KisLas, lejuge28, Liutas, OOSHA, robbodog, Romanov Stole My Pension, Sub4TiddlerMurray, tneafry

 

 

All hang your heads in shame.

 

They should've gone to specsavers!

[Guest JamboRobbo]

In light of the result so far, would be interesting if some of the Zaliukas fans were to explain why they think he is better than Berra.

 

I too would be very interested to hear this.

 

Sympathy vote is the only explanation I can think of.

[boabyarsebiscuit]

I too would be very interested to hear this.

 

Sympathy vote is the only explanation I can think of.

 

Or

 

 

(always wanted to do that)

[Gambo]

I think Berra is better, albeit marginally.

 

 

That said I think Berra tends to get a light ride of it when he balls up, whereas Zaliuckas gets absolutley crucified for anything and not very much praise when he deserves it.

 

I am happy with both and think they are a pretty good centre half pairing, I dont think Berra is as good as some on here make out and I dont think Zaliuckas is anywere near as bad as people make out

 

 

Well said Prancer, there is imo very little between them, game by game these views may change but overall there aint much between them. Most will prefer Berra slightly, some will prefer Zaliukas.

 

There is not imo the gulf in class/ability that some make out.

[Dazo]

Well said Prancer, there is imo very little between them, game by game these views may change but overall there aint much between them. Most will prefer Berra slightly, some will prefer Zaliukas.

 

There is not imo the gulf in class/ability that some make out.

 

 

You want to sit in Prancers bus when it comes to talking about football ?

 

You really must be getting desperate for support.

[Thunderstruck]

Well said Prancer, there is imo very little between them, game by game these views may change but overall there aint much between them. Most will prefer Berra slightly, some will prefer Zaliukas.

 

There is not imo the gulf in class/ability that some make out.

 

Exactamundo! Unfortunately, too many seize any debate as the opportunity to put forward unreasoned/insubstantiated opinion that verges on prejudice.

 

I was encouraged on Saturday by the way that the back four and Karipides worked together during the game. When Berra moved forward to some effect in the second half, Karipides moved back to cover. The same thing happened when Zaliukas made a move forward. It is this sort of integration that is the basis of solid defence.

 

It was also worth noting that our defence almost caused Balogh to expire CEO hypothermia after the first 15 mins during which time I don't think he got a touch of the ball.

 

The one serious mistake that the defensive TEAM made during the match lead to a well-taken goal by Lovell. The entire defence stands culpable and the entire defence needs to learn from the mistake.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Exactamundo! Unfortunately, too many seize any debate as the opportunity to put forward unreasoned/insubstantiated opinion that verges on prejudice.

 

Care to substantiate that claim?

 

What sort of prejudice are you suggesting? I hope you're not another playing the race card?

[Thunderstruck]

Care to substantiate that claim?

 

What sort of prejudice are you suggesting? I hope you're not another playing the race card?

 

You simply have to read the preceding four pages to see adequate examples of unsubstantiated "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or experience". The italicised text is an OED definition of "prejudice".

 

I usually find that the first to be offended are usually the most guilty.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

You simply have to read the preceding four pages to see adequate examples of unsubstantiated "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or experience". The italicised text is an OED definition of "prejudice".

 

So you're making wild accusations without having the balls to clarify who your making them against, and even the details of the prejudices you claim these people have.

 

I usually find that the first to be offended are usually the most guilty.

 

Just to clarify, are you implying I'm a racist? Do you really think it's acceptable to suggest things like that about people you've never met, just because they happen to think a certain player is ****e at football?

 

Do you think the people who gave Nade stick last year when he was playing ****e, have suddenly decided they like French people this year, or is it perhaps that people just based on football abililty not race?

[markletissier]

bit of a no brainer.

[Thunderstruck]

So you're making wild accusations without having the balls to clarify who your making them against, and even the details of the prejudices you claim these people have.

 

I don't want to take up too much of your valuable time but please do me the courtesy of reading posts I put on this thread yesterday.

 

 

Just to clarify, are you implying I'm a racist? Do you really think it's acceptable to suggest things like that about people you've never met, just because they happen to think a certain player is ****e at football?

 

Do you think the people who gave Nade stick last year when he was playing ****e, have suddenly decided they like French people this year, or is it perhaps that people just based on football abililty not race?

 

Talk about leaps of logic! This is of olympic standard!!

It is you that is inferring that any reference to "prejudice" equates to some form of racism. I simply said that, in my experience, the first to complain are usually guilty (in this case of being prejudiced).

 

[leginten]

You simply have to read the preceding four pages to see adequate examples of unsubstantiated "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or experience". The italicised text is an OED definition of "prejudice".

 

I usually find that the first to be offended are usually the most guilty.

 

In what way are people's opinions and criticisms of Zaliukas preconceived? They're surely the opposite - opinions based on their experience of having seen him play.

This is reminiscent of comments describing the reaction to the management/selections at Tynecastle over the last three seasons as "knee-jerk".

[Thunderstruck]

In what way are people's opinions and criticisms of Zaliukas preconceived? They're surely the opposite - opinions based on their experience of having seen him play.

This is reminiscent of comments describing the reaction to the management/selections at Tynecastle over the last three seasons as "knee-jerk".

 

From this thread alone......

 

"Number 26 is an embarrasment to Heart of Midlothian and it makes me sick watching him pull on a Hearts jersey."

 

"Zaliukas is a waste of space - end of!"

 

"Zal is an absolute freekin bombscare and is always liable to cost us goals,"

 

"Zalclueless"

[leginten]

From this thread alone......

 

"Number 26 is an embarrasment to Heart of Midlothian and it makes me sick watching him pull on a Hearts jersey."

 

"Zaliukas is a waste of space - end of!"

 

"Zal is an absolute freekin bombscare and is always liable to cost us goals,"

 

"Zalclueless"

 

I'll repeat the question then: in what way are the above opinions preconceived as opposed to based on experience?

[boabyarsebiscuit]

From this thread alone......

 

"Number 26 is an embarrasment to Heart of Midlothian and it makes me sick watching him pull on a Hearts jersey."

 

"Zaliukas is a waste of space - end of!"

 

"Zal is an absolute freekin bombscare and is always liable to cost us goals,"

 

"Zalclueless"

Please.

 

It's Zaliclueless. You missed out the "i".

[Thunderstruck]

I'll repeat the question then: in what way are the above opinions preconceived as opposed to based on experience?

 

Substantiation is somewhat lacking in the posts referred to.

 

Do you honestly believe that all of the pejorative anti-Zaliukas one-liners are based on considered observation of the player and his abilities or lack of?

[Thunderstruck]

Please.

 

It's Zaliclueless. You missed out the "i".

 

Oops, sorry, should have put (sic) in the quote

[Chris Benoit]

I think Berra is better, albeit marginally.

 

Both are more than capable SPL defenders and both have different attributes. Berras pace differentiates him from most centre halfs though and would be the harder to replace.

 

That said I think Berra tends to get a light ride of it when he balls up, whereas Zaliuckas gets absolutley crucified for anything and not very much praise when he deserves it.

 

I am happy with both and think they are a pretty good centre half pairing, I dont think Berra is as good as some on here make out and I dont think Zaliuckas is anywere near as bad as people make out

 

Re Karipidis- not a fan of him tbh, not suited to the scottish game as a cemtre half and too limited for the right back spot.

 

If we had to put anyone into centre half as cover for me it would McGowan and tbh Im amazed he doesnt get at least a few sub appearences

 

Agree 100%

[boabyarsebiscuit]

Substantiation is somewhat lacking in the posts referred to.

 

Do you honestly believe that all of the pejorative anti-Zaliukas one-liners are based on considered observation of the player and his abilities or lack of?

 

Yes.