World Financial System......done

[coppercrutch]

OMG.........

 

I predicted last night we could get near to 4000 today. I didn't expect 3800 by 8.03.

 

This is meltdown. I expect the markets wordlwide will be closed fairly soon for a few days at least.

 

This is meltdown on a ****ing crazy scale. Pretty much everyone is going to get ****ed. Whether it be through savinsg being ****ed, pensions being ****ed, currency getting ****ed or getting taxed to ****ed.

 

The last week has been the worst ever for BOTH the FTSE and the DOW.

 

EVER. Worse than 1929.

 

This is not scaremongering. I truly think our entire financial way of life has changed for good.

 

Not much we can do about it though. We are merely plebs !!

[coppercrutch]

The slide in share prices continues this morning.

 

Slide ? 10% off in about 30 seconds from opening.......

 

That is a little more than a slide.

[Dagger Is Back]

OMG.........

 

I predicted last night we could get near to 4000 today. I didn't expect 3800 by 8.03.

 

This is meltdown. I expect the markets wordlwide will be closed fairly soon for a few days at least.

 

This is meltdown on a ****ing crazy scale. Pretty much everyone is going to get ****ed. Whether it be through savinsg being ****ed, pensions being ****ed, currency getting ****ed or getting taxed to ****ed.

 

The last week has been the worst ever for BOTH the FTSE and the DOW.

 

EVER. Worse than 1929.

 

This is not scaremongering. I truly think our entire financial way of life has changed for good.

 

Not much we can do about it though. We are merely plebs !!

 

Just finished walking the dog and thought I wonder if they'll suspend trading. If not today it's gonna be damn soon.

 

So who is causing the panic though? I don't understand all of this.

 

Up until a few weeks ago all was OK in my wee world. Sure gas/electric prices had gobe through the roof but there was food on the table and my wee business was ticking over quite nicely.

 

Now?

 

So who has started the panic and is fanning the flames?

 

You?

Me?

US?

Them?

 

Who are them? The Germans, Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, Iran, Al Queda?

 

Is it the money men, some mysterious billionaires across the globe seeking world domination?

 

Who is behind this fiendish plan or is it just a bizarre chain of events that no-one could possibly have planned or foreseen?

 

If it is then how will it be stopped? What are they/we looking for to allow confidence to be restored?

 

I just don't get it.

[footieman]

So is Monday the day to start buying again...........

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So is Monday the day to start buying again...........

 

Potentially. You might find that the menu is restricted though.

[Scallywag]

Keep an eye on Citibank....I think they could be in abit of trouble soon !

 

Personaly I do believe the global crash is co-ordinated, don't know why but I do. Who by and why is the question.

 

Is it needed to make the jump to a global government ? (we have already seen a co-ordinated global response in reducing interest rates)

 

Is it a response to peak oil ?

 

Who knows ! but there are a few people who are predicting events with alarming accuracy.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Keep an eye on Citibank....I think they could be in abit of trouble soon !

 

Personaly I do believe the global crash is co-ordinated, don't know why but I do. Who by and why is the question.

 

Is it needed to make the jump to a global government ? (we have already seen a co-ordinated global response in reducing interest rates)

 

Is it a response to peak oil ?

 

Who knows ! but there are a few people who are predicting events with alarming accuracy.

 

Och, as long as they're Hearts fans, who cares?

[flecktimus]

Och, as long as they're Hearts fans, who cares?

 

Geoff you seem to know a little about the financial markets. You did mention the exposure to Lehman?s, is this not about the time when CDI or CDF or what ever they call them will start to hit.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Geoff you seem to know a little about the financial markets. You did mention the exposure to Lehman?s, is this not about the time when CDI or CDF or what ever they call them will start to hit.

 

Today's the day when the credit default swaps (CDS) of Lehman's fall due. We find out who's holding the jokers and who is fecked as a consequence, because some of the toxic parcels get unwrapped.

 

There are estimates that this could cost up to ?400bn but no one really knows.

 

Peston is blogging on this subject on the BBC website, incidentally.

[Maximus]

We're all lower class now

[flecktimus]

Today's the day when the credit default swaps (CDS) of Lehman's fall due. We find out who's holding the jokers and who is fecked as a consequence, because some of the toxic parcels get unwrapped.

 

There are estimates that this could cost up to ?400bn but no one really knows.

 

Peston is blogging on this subject on the BBC website, incidentally.

 

Cheers Geoff,

 

About 6 Mths ago I heard someone on about these CDS things and they predicted that they are more toxic than sub prime by a Mile.

 

Basically what the guy was saying was if the world goes into recession there is no way the companies holding these CDS can pay out:eek:

[i8hibsh]

I'd say the financial institutions still have to shoulder the responsibility in this case because everyday we're bombarded with adverts on TV, in papers, on bill boards, on the side of buses etc, so one can argue that banks et al created this financial utopia of sorts. And like every man made utopia, it's impossible to achieve or sustain. if society is greedy, then it's safe to say it's the banks own doing.

 

Without a shadow of doubt

 

We as individuals are part responsible but the banks etc are 90% responsible

[jambodougie]

What happens if my mortgage lender goes bust ? What will happen to my debt - will someone take this on or will I be debt free ?!!!

[frankblack]

What happens if my mortgage lender goes bust ? What will happen to my debt - will someone take this on or will I be debt free ?!!!

 

Your house will be reposessed to pay creditors...

[i8hibsh]

OMG.........

 

I predicted last night we could get near to 4000 today. I didn't expect 3800 by 8.03.

 

This is meltdown. I expect the markets wordlwide will be closed fairly soon for a few days at least.

 

This is meltdown on a ****ing crazy scale. Pretty much everyone is going to get ****ed. Whether it be through savinsg being ****ed, pensions being ****ed, currency getting ****ed or getting taxed to ****ed.

 

The last week has been the worst ever for BOTH the FTSE and the DOW.

 

EVER. Worse than 1929.

 

This is not scaremongering. I truly think our entire financial way of life has changed for good.

 

Not much we can do about it though. We are merely plebs !!

 

CC or should I say Maynard-Keynes, every decade, the economy of every country (developed) goes through a recession of some sort. Sometimes even twice a decade.

 

Obviously this is strataspheric in comparison, and subsequently nail biting squeeky bum material.

 

HOWEVER, the world is coming together on it. It is fixable and will be repaired. It is not pretty but in 5 years time there will be another 'economic boom' until a few years after that it will happen again. I don't think it is possible to see a situation that can compare to the meltdown we are currently experiencing but this has happened since time began.

 

The 1929 Wall Street crash, black monday, Black Tuesday and Black Thursday have all rocked the world's economy and you know what we coped, beat it and even prospered again.

 

For goodness sake we got through great depressions of 2 World Wars!!!

 

As Newton's world famous assumption goes "what goes up must come down"

 

Usually after times of boom we see a fall in world markets.

 

House prices could not go on rising indefinately

 

Yes the current one is unprecedented and I am not under any illusion but be safe in the knowledge that we will get through it and prosper once more.

[jambos are go!]

What happens if my mortgage lender goes bust ? What will happen to my debt - will someone take this on or will I be debt free ?!!!

 

Somebody will buy your mortgage and take it on. You might find they put rates up when they can. Thats what happened with Northern Rock and people moved to other lenders and the Government is getting its $40 Billion back quite quickly I believe. More than half already paid back.

[i8hibsh]

And also......government bail outs are not charity.

 

Yes noone wants them, yes there was little alternative BUT when the tide turns and the economy strengthens the tax payer will benefit.

 

After all, as taxpayers we now have huge stakes in these companies and will enjoy the dividends when(if) they come.

 

I honestly think this credit crunch, world financila crisis is going to shake everything up for the better.

 

House prices will become reasonable, Directors of financial institutions will not be allowed to pay themselves ridiculous bonuses and banks and financial institutions will not be able to take ridiculous kamakaze risks.

[footieman]

As Newton's world famous assumption goes "what goes up must come down"

 

 

Super Fresco makes it easy it's by Graham & Brown.

 

Other wallpaper companies are available.

[coppercrutch]

Without a shadow of doubt

 

We as individuals are part responsible but the banks etc are 90% responsible

 

No.

 

The individuals who are responsible are those who gorged on debt and bought things they could not afford. The banks who indulged in stupid lending practices are also to blame (Covers the vast majority of them).

 

The Government is also to blame for having the power, and having been forewarned about this outcome, to do something about it. They did **** all - in fact they positively encouraged the boom.

 

The only people or organisations that are not to blame are those who have spent the last 10 years living within their means.

 

But we will all pay. Nice that we will have to pay for others greed.

[BlackJAC?]

No.

 

The individuals who are responsible are those who gorged on debt and bought things they could not afford. The banks who indulged in stupid lending practices are also to blame (Covers the vast majority of them).

 

The Government is also to blame for having the power, and having been forewarned about this outcome, to do something about it. They did **** all - in fact they positively encouraged the boom.

 

The only people or organisations that are not to blame are those who have spent the last 10 years living within their means.

 

But we will all pay. Nice that we will have to pay for others greed.

 

Nonsense. Tell someone something often enough and they will start to believe it, it's how the human brain works and being bombarded with adverts is how it's done. Advertising isn't a multi billion pound industry for no reason.

 

if someone wants a ?180,000 mortgage, that's only earning 18k per annum, it's the banks responsibility and their duty to tell that customer to GTF. People can't just go into a bank and demand cash they haven't got, they're given it by the banks ffs.

[Walter Payton]

No.

 

The individuals who are responsible are those who gorged on debt and bought things they could not afford. The banks who indulged in stupid lending practices are also to blame (Covers the vast majority of them).

 

The Government is also to blame for having the power, and having been forewarned about this outcome, to do something about it. They did **** all - in fact they positively encouraged the boom.

 

The only people or organisations that are not to blame are those who have spent the last 10 years living within their means.

 

But we will all pay. Nice that we will have to pay for others greed.

 

Was in the "Westside Plaza" the other morning (only because I was in the area anyway and wanted to get some of those Lemsip powders ) and judging by the front window of the electrical shop you'd never have imagined that people were tightening their belts and taking debt more seriously. Their main selling point (and bearing in mind this is Wester Hailes) seemed to be a "guaranteed loan" with "absolutely no credit check"- the catch seemed to be that you'd have to agree to 26% APR.

 

I agree 100% with Coppercrutch that I think it's pathetic when people whinge that the banks shouldn't have given them credit/a mortgage in the first place and that's why they're having issues servicing their debt- take some responsibility FFS. I also agree though that somebody should throw the book at "finance deals" like the ones above though- yes people are too stupid to think through what they're getting themselves in for, but this doesn't help anyone.

[Boris]

Has the revolution started yet?

[BlackJAC?]

I've got my pitchfork at the ready. Just waiting for the call.

[Cade]

[Cigaro]

How are Tesco's shares doing?

 

All this is going way WAY over my head.

[Arse 'Friends' Dyslexic?]

The "market" has lost it.

 

But what can you expect from an industry which is effectively controlled by a bunch or 20/30-somethings who have never experienced anything other than a market in which everything appreciates.

Now that there are areas of the market on a downturn, they have no clue about what to do. And they are panicing - big time.

 

There are bona fide experts out there - people who know what they're talking about - but no-one seems to pay any attention to what they are saying.

 

Scary stuff.

 

But, on a "difficult" day, things were starting to look better - even the Dow managed a (very) slight upturn at one point.

 

Then George Dubya Bush opened his gob and effectively said the square root of sod all; and then the markets fell on their arse.

 

Monday is going to be rather "interesting".

[coppercrutch]

Nonsense. Tell someone something often enough and they will start to believe it, it's how the human brain works and being bombarded with adverts is how it's done. Advertising isn't a multi billion pound industry for no reason.

 

if someone wants a ?180,000 mortgage, that's only earning 18k per annum, it's the banks responsibility and their duty to tell that customer to GTF. People can't just go into a bank and demand cash they haven't got, they're given it by the banks ffs.

 

Not how my brain works. You see I have a brain.

 

If I get bombarded with messages telling me I can have everything I want - I realise it is all a big scam.

 

As I said before the greedy are responsible for this mess. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

You will find the only ones trying to argue this point are those who fall into the 'greedy' category........

[Boris]

Not how my brain works. You see I have a brain.

 

If I get bombarded with messages telling me I can have everything I want - I realise it is all a big scam.

 

As I said before the greedy are responsible for this mess. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

You will find the only ones trying to argue this point are those who fall into the 'greedy' category........

 

Greed is an esential ingredient for capitalism.

 

The bankers greed is passed onto the daft consumer who feels they can attain some sort of idyll, as described to them by the marketing men who couldn't give a toss about quality of life, unless it makes them a profit.

 

Affluenza, as Oliver James wrote.

 

BlackJAC is right though, the consumer is effectively brainwashed and it is the greed at the top of the chain that drives this.

[BlackJAC?]

Not how my brain works. You see I have a brain.

 

If I get bombarded with messages telling me I can have everything I want - I realise it is all a big scam.

 

As I said before the greedy are responsible for this mess. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

You will find the only ones trying to argue this point are those who fall into the 'greedy' category........

 

You know nothing about me, you know nothing about my credit history or my spending habits, so where exactly did you pull that one from?

 

Just so you don't continue to base your petty retorts on assumptions, i bought my house 11 years ago before the property boom and will have no mortgage come my 45th birthday. My monthly mortgage repayments account for 10% of my and my partner's monthly income, I have never owned a credit card, I have never had the need to take credit out in a shop, out with my mortgage we are never more than 3k in debt at any given time, I have paid into an NHS superannuation pension since the age of 22, we have 1000's put away for our kids and so on.

 

The only credit I have of any note is my mobile phone contract.

 

That aside, had the bank had their way I'd have loans totalling ?30k and have re mortgaged my house twice over as they're permanently on the phone trying to throw cash our way telling us how much we need a new kitchen, an exotic holiday, a shiny new car etc etc.

[portobellojambo1]

Greed is an esential ingredient for capitalism.

 

The bankers greed is passed onto the daft consumer who feels they can attain some sort of idyll, as described to them by the marketing men who couldn't give a toss about quality of life, unless it makes them a profit.

 

Affluenza, as Oliver James wrote.

 

BlackJAC is right though, the consumer is effectively brainwashed and it is the greed at the top of the chain that drives this.

 

Are they though Boris.

 

Using the example within the thread above of a family getting by on ?18,000 less tax I do agree that if they went to the bank and asked for a mortgage/loan possibly out with their means of repayment the banks would give them it, because they (the banks) would get it back by fair means or foul. However surely before you take out such a loan you work out how much your disposable income is going to drop, and if it is going to drop substantially, make life uncomfortable, you should have the common sense to say no.

 

Anyone who is taken in by the line "easy, affordable repayment methods, to suit your budget" is either daft or beyond that stage

[JamboRossi79]

Was in the "Westside Plaza" the other morning (only because I was in the area anyway and wanted to get some of those Lemsip powders ) and judging by the front window of the electrical shop you'd never have imagined that people were tightening their belts and taking debt more seriously. Their main selling point (and bearing in mind this is Wester Hailes) seemed to be a "guaranteed loan" with "absolutely no credit check"- the catch seemed to be that you'd have to agree to 26% APR.

 

I agree 100% with Coppercrutch that I think it's pathetic when people whinge that the banks shouldn't have given them credit/a mortgage in the first place and that's why they're having issues servicing their debt- take some responsibility FFS. I also agree though that somebody should throw the book at "finance deals" like the ones above though- yes people are too stupid to think through what they're getting themselves in for, but this doesn't help anyone.

 

That wouldn't be Brighthouse would it mate? I hope they go bust, **** of the earth. Pray on the folk who can't afford it and then charge about 29% APR. Fecking ridiculous.

[shaun.lawson]

Interesting times, indeed. I still don't subscribe to coppercrutch's worst fears - the market clearly hasn't bottomed out yet, but it will in time, with the bailouts of the last few days filtering through and gradually helping things stabilise. But this is clearly of historic significance: we may be witnessing the end of the Reagan/Thatcher consensus, and a completely new order may be about to emerge.

 

This new order could contain some, or all, of the following:

 

- Much more regulation, with high street banks doing little except making money from customer and business deposits, and an end to the idea of the market always being right.

 

- Companies only allowed to grow to a certain size before being broken up by governments in order to prevent the kind of interconnected problems and enmeshment we've seen in recent weeks.

 

- Much less availability of credit for the ordinary consumer.

 

- Gordon Brown and Labour to win a fourth term in office, as the recovery begins just before the next election, and the public feel he is best equipped to handle these rapidly changing times, as well as giving him all the credit for helping the country get through the worst of it. Labour go on to implode completely over the next five years, with a Tory landslide in 2015 ushering in a generation of Conservative government.

 

- People throughout the West to become more community-centred, and less greedy and individualistic.

 

- Politics to be localised.

 

- Less jet travel, less excitement over the latest technological fad, and much more emphasis on quality of life and the things that really matter.

 

- Far fewer greedheads buying up second and third homes.

 

- More wars for resources, be it oil or eventually, even water.

 

- China - eek! - to become our masters, and Chinese to be taught in schools.

[BlackJAC?]

Are they though Boris.

 

Using the example within the thread above of a family getting by on ?18,000 less tax I do agree that if they went to the bank and asked for a mortgage/loan possibly out with their means of repayment the banks would give them it, because they (the banks) would get it back by fair means or foul. However surely before you take out such a loan you work out how much your disposable income is going to drop, and if it is going to drop substantially, make life uncomfortable, you should have the common sense to say no.

 

Anyone who is taken in by the line "easy, affordable repayment methods, to suit your budget" is either daft or beyond that stage

 

What you're forgetting though, is by and large, the general public are idiots when it comes to what they see and hear on tv or read in magazines. We're living in an era were people from a young age are told what to wear, what to eat and what items they can't live without. Thus it's not surprising they grow up thinking they can in part, live a lifestyle that used to be reserved for the rich and famous.

 

These multinational institutions know it and that's why they think nothing of spending a few million each year advertising their products. Take Apple for example, they know by bottlenecking their products on release they create a "I must have it" demand, that at Christmas will have people fighting in the shopping isles just so they can get their 10 year old brat an iPod.

 

I dunno why people can't see the power of advertising as it's a well known fact that their methods are potent.

[Scallywag]

I would predict the world may be taking a turn toward the chinese model.

 

It aint communism before anyone starts !

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4922981.ece

 

This is the outcome of the Lehman Brothers debacle. Look how much of the $700bn sink is being eaten up just by this figure.

[davemclaren]

Was that CC on Newsnight tonight?

[Arse 'Friends' Dyslexic?]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4922981.ece

 

This is the outcome of the Lehman Brothers debacle. Look how much of the $700bn sink is being eaten up just by this figure.

 

What the article doesn't mention - and I'm not sure if it's mentioned anywhere - is whether any of the UK insititutions are liable to cover any of the insurance costs on it.

 

There have been many figures on the rounds that this, or that, bank are liable for x billion dollars now Lehmans has bitten the dust.

 

If no UK bank has any liabilities regards Lehmans (or at least very little in real terms) then that's a good sign and (hopefully) adds confidence to the "markets" come Monday

 

Ooh - was that a pig I saw fly past my window...?

[neave]

I've been at the pub all night and I'm a little ****ed, so apologies for the ****e that's about to come out.

 

I'm quite confused about all of this. The money that's apparently being 'lost' never really existed, did it? It's like, you put a pound in, after one week it's worth ?1.04 and we're all delighted, the next it's worth 40p and it's the apocalypse within a month.

 

How can we be so ruled by something that doesn't physically exist? By something we can't actually feel or change?

 

This is a serious question. It all seems like it's all run on a computer, and the crashing prices are just a result of a ****ed off Dell and a boy continually pressing 'refresh'. It reminds me of poker: you tend to get a wee flush of good hands then a barren spell, but it eventually evens out.

 

I'm being serious here; I (clearly) know nothing about finance, economics, investment etc and I would love for someone to put this all into Layman's terms for me, so that I can start to panic as much as everyone else, as I feel like I'm missing out on something here.

[Arse 'Friends' Dyslexic?]

I've been at the pub all night and I'm a little ****ed, so apologies for the ****e that's about to come out.

 

I'm quite confused about all of this. The money that's apparently being 'lost' never really existed, did it? It's like, you put a pound in, after one week it's worth ?1.04 and we're all delighted, the next it's worth 40p and it's the apocalypse within a month.

 

How can we be so ruled by something that doesn't physically exist? By something we can't actually feel or change?

 

This is a serious question. It all seems like it's all run on a computer, and the crashing prices are just a result of a ****ed off Dell and a boy continually pressing 'refresh'. It reminds me of poker: you tend to get a wee flush of good hands then a barren spell, but it eventually evens out.

 

I'm being serious here; I (clearly) know nothing about finance, economics, investment etc and I would love for someone to put this all into Layman's terms for me, so that I can start to panic as much as everyone else, as I feel like I'm missing out on something here.

 

Share price is a very dodgy thing to try and nail down.

It's (supposedly) all down to supply and demand but in real terms it's controlled by the dealers who set the prices for any stock trades.

So you'll get a higher price when you want to buy - and a lower price when you want to sell!

 

Otherwise, your analogy is pretty much spot on.

Only there presently seems to be no winners.

Every stock was down (apart from one which was barely up) so where has the money gone?

Answers on a postcard please.

 

In laymans terms - the global economy is in the hands of a bunch of 20/30 year olds who have no idea what they are doing.

 

There are a few "self appointed" financial whizzes on here who can probably explain it better than I.

You can spot them as they often drive about in their Ferraris / Lamborghinis.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I've been at the pub all night and I'm a little ****ed, so apologies for the ****e that's about to come out.

 

I'm quite confused about all of this. The money that's apparently being 'lost' never really existed, did it? It's like, you put a pound in, after one week it's worth ?1.04 and we're all delighted, the next it's worth 40p and it's the apocalypse within a month.

 

How can we be so ruled by something that doesn't physically exist? By something we can't actually feel or change?

 

This is a serious question. It all seems like it's all run on a computer, and the crashing prices are just a result of a ****ed off Dell and a boy continually pressing 'refresh'. It reminds me of poker: you tend to get a wee flush of good hands then a barren spell, but it eventually evens out.

 

I'm being serious here; I (clearly) know nothing about finance, economics, investment etc and I would love for someone to put this all into Layman's terms for me, so that I can start to panic as much as everyone else, as I feel like I'm missing out on something here.

 

Economics is known as the 'dismal science' because it is the only science that recognises that everything comes with a cost.

 

Money, in its simplest form, is the means by which goods and services are exchanged to allow trade to take place.

 

A lot of money doesn't eexist in any physical form. A lot of it is zeroes on a computer screen. However, the aforesaid zeroes allow companies to borrow and invest, people to buy houses via mortgages etc.

 

If the zeroes disappear, nothing physical is destroyed. However, the zeroes available for companies to borrow and people to borrow disappear as well. Therefore, less companies will exist as their cash flow disappears and less people will be employed. Governments will also have less revenue as they will receive less in tax. Also, as credit demands for individuals can't be met due to fewer zeroes, big ticket purchases like houses, cars and plasma TVs reduce.

 

Welcome to a new age of austerity!

[coppercrutch]

You know nothing about me, you know nothing about my credit history or my spending habits, so where exactly did you pull that one from?

 

Just so you don't continue to base your petty retorts on assumptions, i bought my house 11 years ago before the property boom and will have no mortgage come my 45th birthday. My monthly mortgage repayments account for 10% of my and my partner's monthly income, I have never owned a credit card, I have never had the need to take credit out in a shop, out with my mortgage we are never more than 3k in debt at any given time, I have paid into an NHS superannuation pension since the age of 22, we have 1000's put away for our kids and so on.

 

The only credit I have of any note is my mobile phone contract.

 

That aside, had the bank had their way I'd have loans totalling ?30k and have re mortgaged my house twice over as they're permanently on the phone trying to throw cash our way telling us how much we need a new kitchen, an exotic holiday, a shiny new car etc etc.

 

Didn't say I was talking about you personally.

 

All I said was that it is the greedy who are responsible for this mess. You called that 'nonsense'. You must admit that is wrong ?

 

Fair enough I do agree that many people have essentially been brainwashed. However they still have their own mind. They can still make their own decisions and by going to the banks and asking for a 20k loan they really can't afford - they are still being greedy.

 

Saying anything else IMO is simply making excuses for these people. Something that is all too common and pathetic in this World.

 

People invested cash in a dodgy looking Icelandic Bank. It fails. They demand the taxpayer bails them out as it wasn't their fault.

 

Councils invested cash in a dodgy looking Icelandic Bank. It fails. They demand the taxpayer bails them out as it wasn't their fault.

 

And so it goes on and on and on. How often do you hear people simply admitting it was their choice, they made a poor decision and they will deal with it ? About as regularly as a blue moon.

 

The frugal will bail out the idiots once more. You not had about enough of this yourself - seeing as you seem one of the sensible ones ?

 

You and I will have to pay for that spiky haired 20 YO idiot you see driving 'his' new convertible that he couldn't really afford. You and I will have to pay for that blond birds ?500 handbag that she really couldn't afford. It is ****ing scandalous.

 

I totally agree about the brainwashing tactics. However you have to allow yourself to be brainwashed. Myself, yourself and many others have managed to avoid this. Therefore I hold no sympathy for those who couldn't help themselves but fall for this con.

 

As Boris says Greed is key to the system.

 

The system is based on Greed and debt.

 

When you think about it not the ideal situation. Keeps the masses 'in check' though. I don't think that is a con-incidence.

[coppercrutch]

Interesting times, indeed. I still don't subscribe to coppercrutch's worst fears - the market clearly hasn't bottomed out yet, but it will in time, with the bailouts of the last few days filtering through and gradually helping things stabilise. But this is clearly of historic significance: we may be witnessing the end of the Reagan/Thatcher consensus, and a completely new order may be about to emerge.

 

This new order could contain some, or all, of the following:

 

- Much more regulation, with high street banks doing little except making money from customer and business deposits, and an end to the idea of the market always being right. Quite possibly but for how long ? I reckon this period will scare people for longer than the usual busts. I still think in 20 years we will see the 'boom' times rear its ugly head once more

 

- Companies only allowed to grow to a certain size before being broken up by governments in order to prevent the kind of interconnected problems and enmeshment we've seen in recent weeks. Can't see it - Governments are usually pretty corrupt. They will give in when their masters push their faces into the troughs once again

 

- Much less availability of credit for the ordinary consumer. 99.999 % Guaranteed

 

- Gordon Brown and Labour to win a fourth term in office, as the recovery begins just before the next election, and the public feel he is best equipped to handle these rapidly changing times, as well as giving him all the credit for helping the country get through the worst of it. Labour go on to implode completely over the next five years, with a Tory landslide in 2015 ushering in a generation of Conservative government. Possible - but I can't see it. I think this is a far bigger problem than Labour can handle. If they do manage to somehow get the party starting again it will only end up even worse than just now.

 

- People throughout the West to become more community-centred, and less greedy and individualistic. Agreed - Hearing people talk this way already - still whether they actually mean it or not is another matter

 

- Politics to be localised. Don't know much about politics. However I can't see central Government wanting to lose control. All that is happening just now points to Central Governments actually increasing their control over the masses. Pretty much across the globe.

 

- Less jet travel, less excitement over the latest technological fad, and much more emphasis on quality of life and the things that really matter. Probable - A very good thing too.

 

- Far fewer greedheads buying up second and third homes. Probable - A very good thing too.

 

- More wars for resources, be it oil or eventually, even water. 99.999% Guaranteed. Not a good thing.

 

- China - eek! - to become our masters, and Chinese to be taught in schools. Not too sure about this. China are huge and all but they have massive troubles of their own. I am very interested to see who is 'in charge' in 10 years time. Looks like the US are losing their grip but who knows. Lots of funny games going on out there...

 

Morning !!

 

Not just me worst fears..

 

Anyway I hope it doesn't come to complete systemic collapse but we are not far off. In fact many would argue we are there already. I don't really want to see troops in the streets and all that nonsense but it is a possibility nobody can discount.

 

Let's hope everything calms down and the big boys work something out. However I don't have much faith in them. They got us into this mess in the first place. Trusting them to get us out of it is being rather generous IMO.

 

Fingers crossed !!!

[Charlie-Brown]

Now the mega-corpoarations across all sectors of the real US economy automobiles, construction, retailing, transport etc are looking for government bail outs and believing they are just as vital to the economy as the banking & finance industry.

[coppercrutch]

Now the mega-corpoarations across all sectors of the real US economy automobiles, construction, retailing, transport etc are looking for government bail outs and believing they are just as vital to the economy as the banking & finance industry.

 

I think I read that General Motors share price was back to 1950's levels or something ?!!

 

Not sure but sure I read that somewhere.

 

We all know people who make things are in reality more important than those who simply shuffle paper.

 

However the money men are in charge.

[portobellojambo1]

What you're forgetting though, is by and large, the general public are idiots when it comes to what they see and hear on tv or read in magazines. We're living in an era were people from a young age are told what to wear, what to eat and what items they can't live without. Thus it's not surprising they grow up thinking they can in part, live a lifestyle that used to be reserved for the rich and famous.

 

These multinational institutions know it and that's why they think nothing of spending a few million each year advertising their products. Take Apple for example, they know by bottlenecking their products on release they create a "I must have it" demand, that at Christmas will have people fighting in the shopping isles just so they can get their 10 year old brat an iPod.

 

I dunno why people can't see the power of advertising as it's a well known fact that their methods are potent.

 

 

Maybe where I am going wrong is assuming everyone is like me BlackJAC. To me living off credit cards, for example, just doesn't sit well. I am one of those sort of persons that if I want something I first of all determine the overall cost, decide if I can afford to pay for it up front or in spread instalments. And if the answer is no I do not purchase it.

 

I agree with what you say, that advertising does show every product as a must have product, but I would like to think that people have enough common sense to realise that on what they are earning they simply cannot have everything, even if told it really is a "must have" product.

 

My outlook in life is earn the money first, and create a situation where you can have what you really want, rather than what advertisers tell you you really should have. If we all know they are conning us why fall for it, we all have brains, it is just a case of engaging it.

 

To me I see no fun in being up to your eyes in debt, to be spending 10 times what you are earning and paying for it for the rest of your life.

[portobellojambo1]

I think I read that General Motors share price was back to 1950's levels or something ?!!

 

Not sure but sure I read that somewhere.

 

We all know people who make things are in reality more important than those who simply shuffle paper.

 

However the money men are in charge.

 

Think there are some reports floating about just now indicating GM and Chrysler may be merging CC (honestly not sure if this is new news or old news being regurgitated).

 

I think it is when this crunch starts to hit industry in general that many companies who thought they had escaped will feel the impact. At the moment most of the focus appears to be on the finance sector, which seems reasonable given that is where it all started, but as time rolls on the impact will spread and more and more companies will realise share prices and turnover are dropping, meaning they will have to re-address expense management, which normally means reduce staffing levels, which causes further problems to other areas.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

On a related note, I see that they reckon total British deposits (institutional and individual) in Icelandic banks are worth ?8bn. One thing this shows up is how much of charity donation has been turned into an "industry". Cat protection had ?11.2m on deposit FFS!

 

Whatever happened to the days of volunteers rattling their tins in aid of a good cause, rather than employing students to irritate you in an attempt to sign you up to a direct debit?

[Tommy Wiseau]

 

People invested cash in a dodgy looking Icelandic Bank. It fails. They demand the taxpayer bails them out as it wasn't their fault.

 

Councils invested cash in a dodgy looking Icelandic Bank. It fails. They demand the taxpayer bails them out as it wasn't their fault.

.

 

 

 

 

While I agree with a lot of what you say about greed, CC, this is a bit harsh. Any individual with money saved in Icesave (up to ?35k) had their money guaranteed by a sovereign government and international law. What's more, they saved it in an FSA approved and regulated institution.

 

I don't think anyone has demanded the British taxpayer bail them out - they just want what is rightfully theirs. Icelandic assets have been frozen in the UK after the illegal action they took in stealing British citizens' money.

 

It's not like these people invested on futures in the company; they put money in a savings account with a competitive rate of interest (note competitive - the rates were not so high as to look too good to be true, a lot of banks were offering similarly good rates).

 

Anyone who had more than the guaranteed amount in their accounts, sure; I would have had little sympathy for them had they lost the extra too. But 98% didn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yes, I did, before you ask.

[coppercrutch]

Think there are some reports floating about just now indicating GM and Chrysler may be merging CC (honestly not sure if this is new news or old news being regurgitated).

 

I think it is when this crunch starts to hit industry in general that many companies who thought they had escaped will feel the impact. At the moment most of the focus appears to be on the finance sector, which seems reasonable given that is where it all started, but as time rolls on the impact will spread and more and more companies will realise share prices and turnover are dropping, meaning they will have to re-address expense management, which normally means reduce staffing levels, which causes further problems to other areas.

 

Think it is going to spread all over. How much of the UK economy is reliant on the Financial Sector ? Not just the people that work there. But how much of their money they spend on things.

 

New cars, Holidays, Houses, nights outs, clothes etc...

 

Plus all the businesses that do work for the sector. Printers, catering, taxi services, airlines etc..

 

Once FS start cutting back most other areas will be affected.

 

Still as a result we may see a period of real prudence (Unlike what Brown thinks of prudence) - I think that is a great thing.

[coppercrutch]

While I agree with a lot of what you say about greed, CC, this is a bit harsh. Any individual with money saved in Icesave (up to ?35k) had their money guaranteed by a sovereign government and international law. What's more, they saved it in an FSA approved and regulated institution.

 

I don't think anyone has demanded the British taxpayer bail them out - they just want what is rightfully theirs. Icelandic assets have been frozen in the UK after the illegal action they took in stealing British citizens' money.

 

It's not like these people invested on futures in the company; they put money in a savings account with a competitive rate of interest (note competitive - the rates were not so high as to look too good to be true, a lot of banks were offering similarly good rates).

 

Anyone who had more than the guaranteed amount in their accounts, sure; I would have had little sympathy for them had they lost the extra too. But 98% didn't.

 

And yes, I did, before you ask.

 

That is a fair point. I do totally agree that a lot of individuals have been done over. However when putting money in a bank you are actually investing in it. I think the lack of financial education in this country is shocking. I learned nothing at School about any of this.

 

I had an account with Icesave myself but pulled it about 9 months ago. Still you can't expect your average punter to read up as much about these things as I do. I am unusual in being interested in this stuff !!

 

Still my point remains though. Whilst I feel sorry for these people if they had not been bailed out - who is now paying for it ? The taxpayer. That is me.

 

I read enough about Icesave to pull my money out. I am now having to pay for all those who didn't put as much effort into investigating their investment as me.

 

That is completely unfair on myself and many others in this country.

 

Would you not agree ? I have just had enough of the 'I deserve compensation' culture in this country. People get ****ed over. People lose out. It happens - you have to deal with it.

 

I don't quite understand why they always have to be 'bailed out' ? Especially by the taxpayer.