VAR would you go back?

[PaddysBar]

1 hour ago, waterboy11 said:

Two things needed to fix it so it is streamlined and more accepted by everyone.

 

1. handball rule needs cleared up, it’s got too complex leading to the inconsistent decisions.

2. Shorten the process - if it needs multiple looks from multiple angles that’s taking 3/4/5 minutes it’s not a clear and obvious error. Max 2/3 replays decision within 1 minute. - keeps focus on what it was meant to be for Clear and obvious errors 

On angles. Is there any rule on how many cameras there are?

 

It would make total sense if say, every club had to be consistent, three down each touchline and on behind each goal. 
 

The angles may still be slightly different due to the height of the stands, length of pitch etc but at least it would be reasonably consistent. 

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

I was there too . Never been as pissed off at a game . Would have been sorted out there and then with VAR 

Depends who the VAR ref was though ......   Beaton would have likely have sided with Davis.   Brothers of the Sash, and all that......   

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Depends who the VAR ref was though ......   Beaton would have likely have sided with Davis.   Brothers of the Sash, and all that......   

 

Not sure they would have got away with that tbh mate 

[WheatfieldWarrior]

I don't think the refs would go back - I'd imagine it would limit their opportunities in UEFA and FIFA competitions going forward if they weren't using VAR domestically.   

 

I think the situation has definitely improved in terms of the decision-making.  I'd rather wait for the correct (or correct more frequently) decision.

[ColinSmith1255]

2 hours ago, stirlo said:

It's here to stay and the bottom line is there are far fewer incorrect decisions than was the case pre-VAR. The thing that needs to change is the rules themselves, such as the handball rule, which most people agree is a disaster. I also think they need to change this 'clear and obvious error' carry on, which just seems to confuse matters.

 

As for the idea of a system with a limited number of challenges like tennis, that would just result in more arguments/paranoia than ever and would kind of defeat the purpose of VAR, which is simply to try and ensure the correct decision is arrived at in every case. 

Sensible post 👍

[SpruceBringsteen]

Before Sunday I'd have got shot of it because it destroys watching the game. After Sunday I'd keep it because it destroys the wellbeing of Celtic fans

[Groatallar]

Keep it as without it we go back to if in doubt give it to the old firm. In reality it was actually a lot worse at times with some baffling decisions that went their way!

 

Our referees are too frightened of the outcry by the media if they get something wrong that went against the old firm to be relied upon to officiate fairly. Even with the 2 decisions we got with VAR which were correct as per the rules the weegie mafia are up in arms. 

 

About time that Celtic got hauled up for questioning anything they don't get and here's hoping for a public rebuke as well as a fine and ban for Rodgers.

[PaddysBar]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

And then we would never have had the Beattie.

 

Football is imperfect and should be celebrated as such.

I get it a bit Geoff but come on. We would much rather have Hooper’s 88th minute offside goal disallowed and we win 1-0 rather than relying on the frankly ridiculously rare scenario of a penalty being awarded to us a minute or two later. Yes it happened but 99 / 100 it doesn’t. 
 

Ask the RoI if they were happy that Henry’s handball was allowed to proceed to a goal given there was still time for RoI to score after it. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, PaddysBar said:

I get it a bit Geoff but come on. We would much rather have Hooper’s 88th minute offside goal disallowed and we win 1-0 rather than relying on the frankly ridiculously rare scenario of a penalty being awarded to us a minute or two later. Yes it happened but 99 / 100 it doesn’t. 
 

Ask the RoI if they were happy that Henry’s handball was allowed to proceed to a goal given there was still time for RoI to score after it. 

Is that game more special because of the Beattie? Of course it is. Those are the moments you live for.

 

VAR could have overturned the Suso penalty in the final by saying the first foul was the Kujabi shirt pull outside the box as opposed to the trip inside by the same token.

 

Imagine if VAR had said Steve Fulton was contacted outside the box in 1998?

 

Mind you, Gattuso would have been sent off by the same token!

[Ricardo Quaresma]

4 hours ago, queensferryjambo said:

I don't mind it at all especially for offside calls.

 

Not that we faired well in either of the games below, but this is the difference between pre and post VAR. 

 

Pre VAR - December 2018 We are winning 1-0 at Tynecastle. We go on to lose 2-1. The winner is a Moreles goal when he and two other Rangers players are clearly offside. A sickening way to lose the game.

 

Post VAR - February 2023 Rangers pump us 3-0 at Tynecastle still a sickener, but in the same game Rangers had 3 goals chalked off for offside. All chalked off by VAR none of those offside goals were flagged by the linesman.

 

Was that the game with madden in the middle?

[tian447]

I like that VAR gives us a fair crack of the whip.  Dodgy offsides that the Old Firm historically have gotten away with are now (finally) under scrutiny instead of them time and time again being allowed a 5 yard margin in games.

 

I don't like the delays, the lack of clarity, and the fact that some things are not reviewed when other things are.  It needs reworked slightly, but in theory it is absolutely sound.  Things like the handball rule seriously need looked at though to clearly define what is and what is not a penalty, because they seem to make that particular aspect up as they go along.  Then again, the VAR is only as good as those operating it.

 

If there was no VAR, that moron Celtic player kickboxing Cochrane is allowed to stay on the park.  Those are the sort of decisions that we would not have gotten in the pre-VAR days, and we would not have gotten if it hadn't been in action.

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

Why can’t folk accept that it’s 2024? The game has moved on, whether anyone wants to go back it’s not happening so suck it up and get used to it. 

[Pasquale for King]

25 minutes ago, tian447 said:

I like that VAR gives us a fair crack of the whip.  Dodgy offsides that the Old Firm historically have gotten away with are now (finally) under scrutiny instead of them time and time again being allowed a 5 yard margin in games.

 

I don't like the delays, the lack of clarity, and the fact that some things are not reviewed when other things are.  It needs reworked slightly, but in theory it is absolutely sound.  Things like the handball rule seriously need looked at though to clearly define what is and what is not a penalty, because they seem to make that particular aspect up as they go along.  Then again, the VAR is only as good as those operating it.

 

If there was no VAR, that moron Celtic player kickboxing Cochrane is allowed to stay on the park.  Those are the sort of decisions that we would not have gotten in the pre-VAR days, and we would not have gotten if it hadn't been in action.

 

 

Spot on 👍🏽

[Ricardo Quaresma]

So, does anyone know the breakdown with the balls with the electronic sensors in them?

 

Was it the WC, CL that had them, is that it?

 

-

Edited March 8 by Ricardo Quaresma

[gregzy2k7]

Keep it.

 

Its time scottish football Invested in professional referees and officials,

 

I.e all of them should be trained properly and made full time professionals who earn a good corn for what is a high pressure job imo.

 

If they do that, it will improve and will get 99% of calls correct,

 

i would add if they just keep the current set up and dont invest then it will get worse and more frustrating.

 

 

[PaddysBar]

7 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Is that game more special because of the Beattie? Of course it is. Those are the moments you live for.

 

VAR could have overturned the Suso penalty in the final by saying the first foul was the Kujabi shirt pull outside the box as opposed to the trip inside by the same token.

 

Imagine if VAR had said Steve Fulton was contacted outside the box in 1998?

 

Mind you, Gattuso would have been sent off by the same token!

As I said, I do get where you’re coming from and I guess when we’re old, we won’t be sitting in the pub saying ‘do you remember that time VAR disallowed a Celtic goal…….’

[David McCaig]

Without VAR its highly likely that the 3-4 loss to Celtic and the 2-0 win both finish 4 or 5 nil to Celtic!!

 

It's interesting that the goals started drying up for Kyogo once the offside check was introduced.

[Kirky Jambo]

I am really not a fan of VAR at all, but reading this thread it seems I’m in a minority.

 

The reason I don’t like it is that I think on the whole it detracts (rather than adds to) the game experience. But I am also not sure it has improved decision making either.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

29 minutes ago, Kirky Jambo said:

I am really not a fan of VAR at all, but reading this thread it seems I’m in a minority.

 

The reason I don’t like it is that I think on the whole it detracts (rather than adds to) the game experience. But I am also not sure it has improved decision making either.

VAR won't be used on Monday night at Mortom, just like Airdrie.

 

And I for one am grateful.

[The Treasurer]

Decisions need to be made much quicker and the crowd need to be better informed as to what is happening. 

[John Findlay]

As long as we except VAR will not solve everything. It's one main drawback, is it will always be prone to human error.

[Bindy Badgy]

It isn't being used optimally at present. Celtic's penalty against us and Forrest's booking for diving being obvious examples. However, it is a significant improvement on before. We might not have beaten Celtic if they had got away with the very obvious red card offense.

[TexasAndy]

Very good question.  VAR certainly adds drama but I am not sure I like the uncertainty after a goal has been scored.  This has gone for and against us but pre VAR you would have a quick check of linesman and ref to make sure the goal stands now it can involve a wait of up to 2 minutes or more.  I think I am still on the fence with VAR.

[By The Light..]

VAR is good but implementation is not ideal.

 

A good change would be to add a time limit 1 minute.

 

Its fine for TV viewers with slow motion replays and commentators interpretations but when you are a paying fan in the ground to be sat/stood there for 3 minutes with nothing to go on its sh1te.

 

The handball needs simplified and the unnatural position made fairer.

 

Offside shouldn't be measured in millimeters either, how about both feet or at least one whole foot not just a toe!

[Cruickie's Moustache]

Its here to stay and will tend to do more good than bad.

Certianly needs improving.

A few ideas already mentioed that may improve the system

 

- Have managers given a red flag like the NFL to challenge decisions. X? number per half.

- Limit the time taken to make a decision. if A decision can't be made in X? minutes you go with the original onfield.

- Better clarification of handball.

- Like Rugby, have the VAR discussion available to broadcasters, so even if it is after the game, there is a degree of public scrutiny. That would shapren up and standardize the decision making process.

 

From what we have heard so far it seems the dialogue is all over the place.

If you watch the rugby the ref's are very clear about what their deciion / non decision is and what it is they want reviewed and why.

They appear to have a set language and phrases that takes them through the process to get to the end point.

 

[Horatio Caine]

2 minutes ago, Cruickie's Moustache said:

Its here to stay and will tend to do more good than bad.

Certianly needs improving.

A few ideas already mentioed that may improve the system

 

- Have managers given a red flag like the NFL to challenge decisions. X? number per half.

- Limit the time taken to make a decision. if A decision can't be made in X? minutes you go with the original onfield.

- Better clarification of handball.

- Like Rugby, have the VAR discussion available to broadcasters, so even if it is after the game, there is a degree of public scrutiny. That would shapren up and standardize the decision making process.

 

From what we have heard so far it seems the dialogue is all over the place.

If you watch the rugby the ref's are very clear about what their deciion / non decision is and what it is they want reviewed and why.

They appear to have a set language and phrases that takes them through the process to get to the end point.

 

Good post.  Yes, VAR is here to stay.  We would not (could not?) ditch it as this would put Scottish football at odds with the rest of the world.  We would become even more irrelevant than we are now and our referees would be barred from officiating outside of Scotland.  The suggestions given above are all sensible and would help it to work the way it should.

[ScottieMac17]

VAR is not the problem, the poor officiating is the problem. That was the problem before and it probably always will be. 

 

I always feel that the arrogance and stubbornness of referees and there bosses causes the issues, its difficult to fix any mistakes when the referees never admit that they have made mistakes. Look at the ref watch on sky sports news, Dermot never seems able to publicly say that a referee (no matter the league) has made an outright mistake. This kind of attitude needs to be improved or things will never change. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

If the big leagues start pushing back on VAR (and the English aren't exactly jumping for joy with it) VAR will die. Scotland is just trying to follow the crowd and doing it half arsed as usual.

[dannymack]

11 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Recency bias. How long did it take for the opposition to get a decision at Ibrox?

Pass on your question. 

 

I still stand by VAR, past incidents on the main stage may well have seen different outcomes as VAR may well have called it correctly...

 

1, Celtic equaliser 2012 Cup Semi Final.

2, Hearts penalty 2012 Cup Final.

3, Celtic penalty 2019 Cup Final.

4, Hibs penalty 2020 Cup Semi Final. 

 

 

 

 

[jim747]

VAR works fine, it's the biased arseholes in charge that ruin the game.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

5 minutes ago, jim747 said:

VAR works fine, it's the biased arseholes in charge that ruin the game.

So when will said arseholes change? VAR is a solution for the wrong problem.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

56 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If the big leagues start pushing back on VAR (and the English aren't exactly jumping for joy with it) VAR will die. Scotland is just trying to follow the crowd and doing it half arsed as usual.

As far as I can see its only the English that are having a hissy fit. Generally led by ex-players who are resistant to any kind of change.

[Ron Burgundy]

Deffo keep it. We would not have won on Sunday without it.

When Celtic beat us 4-3 at Tynie neither of our two pens would have been given without it.

It's a tiny tiny leveller and will still favour the OF but not as much as without it.

[gordon simpson]

15 hours ago, jock _turd said:

Pre VAR ball hits the string ref blows whistle runs back to the centre crowd goes wild, well one half 😂

Post VAR ball hits the string ref bows whistle and returns to the centre one half of the crowd sit pensively waiting for KLARIFICASHUN three minutes later the crowd are told it was not a goal one half of the crow go wild the other half are saying WTF 😂 The same applies to every other facet of VAR offside, handball etc.

Personally I would go back in an instant! Not becuase I don't want the right decision but I do want to live in the moment. VAR has taken the ectasay out of football . The spontaneous joy of seeing a goal has been removed replaced by forensic examination of spurious video evidence.

hopefully one day we will have A.I. to make the decisions 

and not rely on some  bigoted weegie bassa    

[RustyRightPeg]

Keep it but invest in the referees giving them better training and making them full time.

[Dia Liom]

Nobody can say it's not resulted in more correct decisions. My issue is the way it affects games by adding in lengthy delays, multiple times per game quite often. I would keep it for offsides and for clear and obvious errors. The definition of clear and obvious errors has to be agreed as something far more extreme than it is currently understood -- a deliberate handball clearance that is missed, an off the ball punch or kick. Obviously the amount of subjectivity in most decisions is itself subjective, but, for me, for the sake of the game, where there is any minor deliberation or debate, go with the referee's on-field decision.

 

Alternatively, I'm open to other solutions to minimise the impact of VAR checks, a time limit maybe, but haven't given that much thought.

[Batistuta87]

Decisions are still being left to an individual's opinion and there's always going to be people who disagree with the decision made and mistakes will always happen, but I think it's been a positive introduction and should only get better as time goes on. Refs and VAR assistants need to speak up if they think something is wrong and not just accept one person's decision, because I don't know how a room of four guys AND an on-field referee can still be getting things wrong unless someone is too scared to challenge the decision. It might be worth trialing ex-pros in the VAR room. Don't know if their input into how things happen on the pitch would help or not but it would be worth a try. The VAR room itself is also remote so it could be anywhere in the world really. There's no need for it to be in Glasgow so why not try having the VAR room in other countries so there's no doubt about impartiality.

 

Once clubs have got full coverage too it'll be a lot easier for some decisions to be made. The only once that's involved us that I'm not sure about is the Vargas offside v St Johnstone. Every other one I've been able to decide one way or another if the ref/VAR has got it right or wrong. 

 

Celtic having a meltdown is so unnecessary though and they're forgetting the decisions that went their way such as their penalty (wrong) and our offside goal (right). Our penalty was a handball, and the sending off was a sending off. Hit off two players' arms and kicked him in the heed lol I don't know how you can argue those. 

 

Edited March 8 by Batistuta87

[queensferryjambo]

11 hours ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

Was that the game with madden in the middle?

 

 

Madden was the ref that day.

[Hackney Hearts]

12 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

VAR could have overturned the Suso penalty in the final by saying the first foul was the Kujabi shirt pull outside the box as opposed to the trip inside by the same token.

 

Play advantage for the shirt pull surely?

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

So when will said arseholes change? VAR is a solution for the wrong problem.

imo VAR addresses the global football issue of wrong decisions due to refs/linesmen having to judge things like fouls/offsides/penalties  in real-time based on whatever view they had of them.  No surprise that many were "soft" or downright wrong.    In that respect VAR is definitely a step in the right direction.

 

However VAR in Scotland has the  same west-coast bias that the on-field refs have.  Until the SFA agree to have VAR refs  from outside the Scottish football bubble, it'll always be tainted.     The best we (and all other clubs outside the OF) can probably do is accept that "we win some, we lose some" VAR decisions.

 

Rodgers tirade against Beaton's VAR performance for giving us a penalty and upgrading Yangs yellow to a red contrasts remarkably with his non-comment about them being awarded  a penalty (with VAR's agreement) for their player barging Cochrane off the ball which resulted in a tangle of legs.    

 

 

[Hackney Hearts]

4 hours ago, TexasAndy said:

I am not sure I like the uncertainty after a goal has been scored.

 

I know what you mean, but there's still plenty of goals (the majority?) where it's clear there's no need to check anything.

 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

16 minutes ago, Hackney Hearts said:

 

Play advantage for the shirt pull surely?

Exactly what Thomson did.

 

VAR, on the other hand? Who knows.

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, gordon simpson said:

hopefully one day we will have A.I. to make the decisions 

and not rely on some  bigoted weegie bassa    

Only if the AI software is developed outside of Scotland  !!  

[gordon simpson]

17 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Only if the AI software is developed outside of Scotland  !!  

you are spot on  

[Pistol1874]

Every time I think I’ve settled on the position of ‘get rid of it’ we get a game like Sunday.

3 times the on field referee guessed Celtic (the linesman getting the offside wrong is forgivable, I’m still not sure that VAR was correct), that despite the game being at Tynecastle with next to none of their fans being there. 
Without VAR to highlight the errors, we probably lose that game.

That being said, I do feel match going fans have given up far too much for far too little. A system whereby those who are watching at home are better informed than those who have paid to be there cannot possibly be correct.

[AuldReekiee]

Keep it, make it transparent and make the officials accountable. Have the ref micd up and the VAR room micd up, have them explain their decision after matches. The arrogance and contempt the governing bodies have for clubs and fans is staggering; managers are forced to do interviews no matter how badly their result has gone, why are referees exempt from this?

[Busby8]

VAR is not the problem... it's the folk who sit and adjudicate on it.

Off the top of my head, you could balance out the cellic pen against the Haring shirt tug at Ibrox.

Neither of these would have been given had it not been for VAR intervention.

 

 

If you think it's a contentious system just now, just wait until we have AI running the show.

I suppose at least then we wouldn't have human error, basic incompetence or bias.

 

Edit....... one thing that gets me is this offside thing.

It's all very well drawing lines showing where both attackers and defenders are, but what about the actual point of contact when the ball is played forward ?

Is it when contact is first made with the foot/head,or is it when the ball leaves the foot/head ??

There definitely will be a difference, however small, yet it seems to be just when the guy in the box judges it to be made.

That in turn could be open to mis-interpretation at best and abuse at worst.

Those, however many frames per second will influence the result of whether an attacking player is offside or not, but it's a question that never seems to be asked.

 

 

.

Edited March 8 by Busby8

[boag1874]

Does anyone actually think VAR has stopped folk celebrating a goal? Been to plenty post VAR games and haven’t noticed a difference in the immediate reaction to a goal

 

[Ex member of the SaS]

As said if the bigots hate it I am for it. They have had the worse of it and the rest have benefited more than they have lost. No reason why the control room is in Glasgow, they could have refs in England, Ireland and Wales all taking turns in over seeing VaR here. The same with VaR down south although I doubt they would be happy with the quality ours bring to the table.

The problems we have with biased refs on the pitch would be harder to sort, but out sourcing VaR is easy as other countries have the same system.

[dougal]

It's not ideal tbh however the amount of dodgy calls that both the Old Firm got away with pre-Var was ridiculous. There were numerous offside calls that the at best incompetent and worse biased linesmen weren't flagging for. That is the thing that stops me wanting to go back as it would just go back to the Old Firm getting the majority of decisions. Yeah some of the decisions have been baffling but it's not the fault of VAR but the fault of the officials. Sort the officials out as well as clarifying the handball rule would start to improve it.