Horizon IT - Post Office - Public Enquiry

[periodictabledancer]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

This morning's Fujitsu witness, Peter (I can't recall) Sewell, was the manager of the team who provided witness statements to support POL prosecutions. If anything he is just as bad as the worst of the POL witnesses for selective memory loss, e.g. Jarnail Singh.

 

He claimed not to be involved in the formulation of witness statements, despite being the manager of what was a small team. He was also the change owner for a significant change to the audit process that he claimed little knowledge or involvement.

 

Towards the end of this morning's evidence he was presented with this damning email he sent re Lee Castleton.  He can't recall why he wrote it.

 

 

Note: Fetters Lane was the location of the court building they were attending. If was historically the site of a number of hangings.

I had to quit his sesion before this email appeared but I'm not surprised. An arrogant ******* who perfectly fits the Fujitsu type.

His testimony was little more than a passive aggressive "I don't remember" , with almost no effort put into any recall : towards the end when he was asked "what did you actually do?"  was a sign of the frustration of the KC questioning him.

He was (in his view) absolutely non-technical (trying to create an imnpression he was a functionary, while others did the dirty work) and he didn't spare a thought about the witness statements that were being dreamed up.

 

[Mikey1874]

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

10 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

Everyday the list grows longer and longer of the people who should be looking at jail time.

[Victorian]

Today's revealed documents should pretty much advise Paula Vennells and others to prepare for a major lifestyle change in the future.  Shocking and saddening stuff.

[Footballfirst]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

Today's revealed documents should pretty much advise Paula Vennells and others to prepare for a major lifestyle change in the future.  Shocking and saddening stuff.

There's an early opportunity to ask Fujitsu director Paul Patterson about the documents at the inquiry tomorrow.

[Ked]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The criminality is insidious now.

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

There's an early opportunity to ask Fujitsu director Paul Patterson about the documents at the inquiry tomorrow.

 

Certainly.  

 

I saw it suggested that the eventual appearance of public enemy number 1 was deliberately planned out.  To establish the facts and chronology in the inquiry in order to paint her into a corner.  It's going to be box office.

[ehcaley]

Hope all the Fujitsu and PO feckers have watched the interview with Betty Brown today.Mind you I don't think they could be shamed.

[WorldChampions1902]

13 hours ago, Victorian said:

Today's revealed documents should pretty much advise Paula Vennells and others to prepare for a major lifestyle change in the future.  Shocking and saddening stuff.

Soon to be wearing a Gary O’ Connor T-shirt emblazoned with the slogan, “Only God Can Judge Me”.

[By The Light..]

Paul Patterson Co-CEO under oath admitted bugs were well known for 20 years but surprised his staff did not include this info in witness statements to POL.

 

SHAMEFULL

 

One of the bugs created duplicate transactions and took 5 YEARS to fix

[WorldChampions1902]

31 minutes ago, By The Light.. said:

Paul Patterson Co-CEO under oath admitted bugs were well known for 20 years but surprised his staff did not include this info in witness statements to POL.

 

SHAMEFULL

 

One of the bugs created duplicate transactions and took 5 YEARS to fix

I cannot believe I’m writing this, but here goes.

 

To set some context, PP started his employment with Fujitsu in 2010 - in Sales (who would’ve guessed?). He moved into his current role in 2019. This debacle started in the late 1990’s.

 

I listened to every minute of his testimony today. Much of it sounded very sincere. Particularly the intention (from my understanding), to provide financial support and more, to the indirect victims of this travesty. The children of the convicted Postmasters, that were shunned and bullied as a result of their mothers/fathers convictions, for example. My reading of that was not just financial support in terms of education, but potentially Fujitsu offering those (now) adults, a job in IT - with Fujitsu?

 

Having said that, I think the most difficult part of his session was when he was presented with an email from a Fujitsu employee, who was ‘invited’ to attend court as part of a PO prosecution. The contents of that mail were very revealing, with that employee stating they were uncomfortable being asked to attend court. Furthermore, once there, she was grilled on much more, than she was initially expected to answer questions on. In fact, she was told weeks before that it was unlikely she would have to attend. The email was written after she returned from attending court. PP agreed with much of what that Fujitsu employee had written. One sentence saying something along the lines of, “we shouldn’t be withholding info, just because it’s not being asked for”.

 

It was very, very difficult viewing.

 

 

[periodictabledancer]

Patterson was grilled on why FJ  internal process docs make no mention of the KEL - he doesnt know,  but he wouldn't know about its significance in any event  because he's a salesman and not a techy.  But he couldn't bring himself to say it. So he looks bad from the start.

 

He's then asked about another document - says he hasn't seen it , even though it's one of 650 documents appended to his witness statement. This lads has spent some serious time with the FJ lawyers!!!.

 

HIS Misreading of the request from Sam Steen KC in which he suggested FJ might offer family  of  the victims any kind of training was quite a moment. 

 

Another key moment was Beer KC basically telling him , cheers for all the statements and supporting  documents - we're going to read them in detail and then you'll be back again for some serious questioning. Pattersons testimony has a long way to go and Beer wasn't fooled by his apparent good intentions nor the assertion FJ will wait for the inquiry to complete its work before doing its own review - as Beer told him - and Patterson was forced to admit - FJ has known about these issues "for over two decades".

 

Edited January 20 by periodictabledancer

[Lone Striker]

Didn't someone give evidence to the Business & Trade Select Committee recently which revealed that the Fujitsu IT team responsible for pinpointing the technical reasons for reported Horizon bugs  consisted of just 4 people - 2 of  which were described as "not up to the job" ?

 

  

[Victorian]

Lord Arbuthnot and the Post Office's own forensic accountant both now openly saying on the broadcast media that Paula Vennells lied to the Commons select committee and should be now be the subject of immediate criminal investigation.

 

The wolf approaching the right door.

[Footballfirst]

4 hours ago, Victorian said:

Lord Arbuthnot and the Post Office's own forensic accountant both now openly saying on the broadcast media that Paula Vennells lied to the Commons select committee and should be now be the subject of immediate criminal investigation.

 

The wolf approaching the right door.

Lord Arbuthnot was reacting to the extracts of secret recordings of PO exec meetings published by Channel 4 earlier.

 

Today's witness, Robert Daily, fitted the usual profile of the PO investigator. Acted the tough cop and had pre judged the cases he was questioned about.  It got uncomfortable for him when he was challenged about not investigating everything he should and his failure to disclose anything about the Horizon system. He had never heard of any issues in 2008. Also admitted he had worked with that other tough cop Steve Bradshaw.

 

Finally he was asked if he wished to say anything about his personal responsibility in the wrongful prosecution of SPMRs. He said "I was only doing my job".

[SectionDJambo]

13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

Finally he was asked if he wished to say anything about his personal responsibility in the wrongful prosecution of SPMRs. He said "I was only doing my job".

Nufingk to do wiv me guv. I only work here.

Horrible individuals, him and his mate. They deserve any lawful retribution coming to them.

[The Mighty Thor]

6 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

 

Finally he was asked if he wished to say anything about his personal responsibility in the wrongful prosecution of SPMRs. He said "I was only doing my job".

Ah the Nazi camp guard defence. 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Ah the Nazi camp guard defence. 

Exactly what I was thinking. Tgey area bsolutely the lowest of the low, utter scum, with no backbone.

Hopefully these people have a miserable life, for however long they remain alive.

[Victorian]

8 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Lord Arbuthnot was reacting to the extracts of secret recordings of PO exec meetings published by Channel 4 earlier.

 

Today's witness, Robert Daily, fitted the usual profile of the PO investigator. Acted the tough cop and had pre judged the cases he was questioned about.  It got uncomfortable for him when he was challenged about not investigating everything he should and his failure to disclose anything about the Horizon system. He had never heard of any issues in 2008. Also admitted he had worked with that other tough cop Steve Bradshaw.

 

Finally he was asked if he wished to say anything about his personal responsibility in the wrongful prosecution of SPMRs. He said "I was only doing my job".

 

 

More damning documentation.  It seems that the facts and chronology are being incrementally assembled.  And it looks unfavourable for Mrs Vennells.

[Victorian]

10 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Exactly what I was thinking. Tgey area bsolutely the lowest of the low, utter scum, with no backbone.

Hopefully these people have a miserable life, for however long they remain alive.

 

These characters will probably justify their own actions by taking the view that they were mere bit-part players.  That someone else would have been in place to do the job that they did anyway.  That there were other,  more important,  more guilty people who should carry the blame.  

 

Small,  relatively minor part = not really a part that mattered and would have happened anyway.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

21 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

These characters will probably justify their own actions by taking the view that they were mere bit-part players.  That someone else would have been in place to do the job that they did anyway.  That there were other,  more important,  more guilty people who should carry the blame.  

 

Small,  relatively minor part = not really a part that mattered and would have happened anyway.

There was a Storyville documentary on BBC4, last night, called The Last Survivors.  It was about a Jewish holocaust survivor, in Australia,  taking out a bit part Nazi, after the war. The nazi was living happily, and the Australian police were protecting him. The holocaust survivors were delighted the Nazi finally got what he deserved,  after the legal process let them down.

 

There's a lot to be said for vigilante justice.

Edited January 24 by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

[Victorian]

35 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

There was a Storyville documentary on BBC4, last night, called The Last Survivors.  It was about a Jewish holocaust survivor, in Australia,  taking out a bit part Nazi, after the war. The nazi was living happily, and the Australian police were protecting him. The holocaust survivors were delighted the Nazi finally got what he deserved,  after the legal process let them down.

 

There's a lot to be said for vigilante justice.

 

I would be all for some limited,  non-violent vigilante justice.  The odd midnight jobby through a letterbox,  etc.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

I would be all for some limited,  non-violent vigilante justice.  The odd midnight jobby through a letterbox,  etc.

You need to remember, though, people are dead because of these lying scumbags.

[Footballfirst]

Today's witness Raymond Grant sounds like he is going to be somewhat evasive, given that he provided a minimal statement, due to other priorities in his life.

 

He still believes that the postmaster is guilty, despite having been cleared at the High Court.

[Victorian]

16 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

You need to remember, though, people are dead because of these lying scumbags.

 

Hopefully every one of them who is due a prison term sees the inside of a cell.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Hopefully every one of them who is due a prison term sees the inside of a cell.

I'd to think so, too, but that never happens in this country. They just repeatthe same mistakes. Look at that guy Green, who did a Robert Maxwell, and stole the pension fund.

 

A bit like the Tories willingly putting people in poverty, just to line own pockets.  I don't apologise for my opinions on what needs to happen to all tories (and I won't repeat it,cos I'll get banned).

Edited January 24 by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

[Harry Potter]

1 hour ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

You need to remember, though, people are dead because of these lying scumbags.

Aye, people put through hell, shocking, your the only one having problems, lies.

[Mikey1874]

Edinburgh case looked at this morning.

 

Raeburn Place, Stockbridge. Miss Saleem the sub postmistress. 2001/2. Doesn't seem to have been a criminal case due to being procedures not followed by the regional manager but they've dug it out as context as Help Desk said then Horizon system was faulty. 

Edited January 24 by Mikey1874

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Today's witness Raymond Grant sounds like he is going to be somewhat evasive, given that he provided a minimal statement, due to other priorities in his life.

 

He still believes that the postmaster is guilty, despite having been cleared at the High Court.

 

Such as walking his dog, what an absolute dickheid this guy is.

[pharmaceutical01]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Today's witness Raymond Grant sounds like he is going to be somewhat evasive, given that he provided a minimal statement, due to other priorities in his life.

 

He still believes that the postmaster is guilty, despite having been cleared at the High Court.

Absolutely,FF. I wonder if he could be found to be in contempt of the inquiry 

[Footballfirst]

Here's a tweet posted a couple of days ago about the last two PO witnesses.

 

 

[periodictabledancer]

Raymond's the real victim here. He's not getting paid to read the documents and he literally doesn't give a toss. Staggering insensitivity from a total failure of a human being. 

[The Mighty Thor]

No remorse, double down 👍

[Mikey1874]

FFS

 

Just investigate everything about Horizon. To prove it was to blame.

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

No remorse, double down 👍

Astonishing stuff.      The underlying bias of the PO investigators has been revealed at the Inquiry  (the likes of  Bradshaw) - where the starting point is an overwhelming presumption of theft/fraud by the SPM.    Now the PO are claiming they can't support a lot of the appeals because of insufficient evidence     So despite the public admission by Fujitsu that Horizon was riddled with bugs, the PO is actually requiring the convicted SPM's to provide evidence of their innocence 

 

Wow.   I'm lost for words.

 

 

[redjambo]

9 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Astonishing stuff.      The underlying bias of the PO investigators has been revealed at the Inquiry  (the likes of  Bradshaw) - where the starting point is an overwhelming presumption of theft/fraud by the SPM.    Now the PO are claiming they can't support a lot of the appeals because of insufficient evidence     So despite the public admission by Fujitsu that Horizon was riddled with bugs, the PO is actually requiring the convicted SPM's to provide evidence of their innocence 

 

Wow.   I'm lost for words.

 

 

It is a highly complicated case. However, given its nature and what we now know about Horizon and its widescale and massive effect on convictions, it would seem to me to be the sanest route to quash all convictions where there is even a possibility that Horizon was to blame for any shortfalls. Then, and only then, if the authorities want to (re)prosecute individual cases afterwards where they are of the opinion that it was theft and Horizon wasn't to  blame, then they are free to do so.

 

It's the old Type 1/Type 2 problem. Do we prefer that innocent people are convicted or that guilty people are deemed innocent, particularly regarding a crime of theft, not one of violence?

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

It is a highly complicated case. However, given its nature and what we now know about Horizon and its widescale and massive effect on convictions, it would seem to me to be the sanest route to quash all convictions where there is even a possibility that Horizon was to blame for any shortfalls. Then, and only then, if the authorities want to (re)prosecute individual cases afterwards where they are of the opinion that it was theft and Horizon wasn't to  blame, then they are free to do so.

 

It's the old Type 1/Type 2 problem. Do we prefer that innocent people are convicted or that guilty people are deemed innocent, particularly regarding a crime of theft, not one of violence?

 

Doctrine has always deemed that avoiding convicting the innocent is infinitely more important than not convicting the guilty.  And when convictions are revisted and deemed unsafe,  that merely implies that guilt is not proved.  Not that innocence has been proved.  I'm not sure why any authorities should attempt to protect convictions at this stage.  It's much safer to wipe the slate clean as the entire background,  premise and management of these investigations and convictions is profoundly discredited.  

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

It is a highly complicated case. However, given its nature and what we now know about Horizon and its widescale and massive effect on convictions, it would seem to me to be the sanest route to quash all convictions where there is even a possibility that Horizon was to blame for any shortfalls. Then, and only then, if the authorities want to (re)prosecute individual cases afterwards where they are of the opinion that it was theft and Horizon wasn't to  blame, then they are free to do so.

 

It's the old Type 1/Type 2 problem. Do we prefer that innocent people are convicted or that guilty people are deemed innocent, particularly regarding a crime of theft, not one of violence?

Other than establishing timelines about who knew about the unreliability of Horizon (but withheld that info), I don't think its complicated at all - unless some PO investigators added to the fiasco by including non-Horizon evidence of theft/fraud in their reports.  The investigators who've appeared at the Inquiry so far seem dodgy enough to have thought nothing of "embellishing" their reports with stuff like that.   For the PO to claim that non-Horizon evidence exists in over 300 reports  as a reason to fight a rearguard action against mass public outrage just underlines the dominant culture of mistrust in Head Office towards SPMs.

 

Their tactic of offering a SPM a chance to avoid a jail sentence if they admitted theft is devious (at best) and outrageous given their special power of prosecution without referral to the POlice or CPS.

 

Bottom line is that a publicly owned organisation with its own powers of prosecution  is in the process of  having its honesty & integrity totally discredited via the Inquiry, yet it still thinks half of  their investigator reports are reliable in some way.  

 

 

Edited January 25 by Lone Striker

[Footballfirst]

43 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Other than establishing timelines about who knew about the unreliability of Horizon (but withheld that info), I don't think its complicated at all - unless some PO investigators added to the fiasco by including non-Horizon evidence of theft/fraud in their reports.  The investigators who've appeared at the Inquiry so far seem dodgy enough to have thought nothing of "embellishing" their reports with stuff like that.   For the PO to claim that non-Horizon evidence exists in over 300 reports  as a reason to fight a rearguard action against mass public outrage just underlines the dominant culture of mistrust in Head Office towards SPMs.

I am only speculating here, but POL may be relying on the convictions for false accounting. In isolation, amending the "cash" figures to balance the books is a prima facie case of an offence having been committed. The correct procedure would have been for the SPMR to report the shortfall and request that it be investigated and a cause/solution found (not likely to be in the SPMR's favour, given their contractual arrangements). I therefore fully understand the SMPRs reluctance to report shortfalls while they were ignorant of Horizon issues.

 

That said, if such an position was put to the Appeals Court by POL, then I think that the SPMR's argument, that the shortfalls they covered up were the result of Horizon's failings, would prevail.

[Lone Striker]

6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I am only speculating here, but POL may be relying on the convictions for false accounting. In isolation, amending the "cash" figures to balance the books is a prima facie case of an offence having been committed. The correct procedure would have been for the SPMR to report the shortfall and request that it be investigated and a cause/solution found (not likely to be in the SPMR's favour, given their contractual arrangements). I therefore fully understand the SMPRs reluctance to report shortfalls while they were ignorant of Horizon issues.

 

That said, if such an position was put to the Appeals Court by POL, then I think that the SPMR's argument, that the shortfalls they covered up were the result of Horizon's failings, would prevail.

Isn't that what basically happened in several cases though ?  The Help Desk and investigators refused to accept that Horizon was causing it, so the only other course of action was for the SPM's to use their own money to cover the "missing money" in the daily reconciliations  -  that remedy seems to have been suggested by the PO's own investigators.     It would be yet another outrage for the PO to now use that "crime" as a reason to oppose the overturning of convictions.     

 

I agree with your last sentence.  Hopefully the pragmatic suggestion by the Govt for a single mass exoneration law eventually meets with the approval of the legal profession, so that the  compensation process can start quickly. 

[periodictabledancer]

The current phase of the inquiry closed today (resumes in April).

For details of the worst PO witnesses who have appeared before the inquiry in this phase, have a listen to the summing up from the lawyers for the SPMs.

 

Here's one,  for starters...

 

 

Holyrood has delivered no improvement to Scotland

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

The current phase of the inquiry closed today (resumes in April).

For details of the worst PO witnesses who have appeared before the inquiry in this phase, have a listen to the summing up from the lawyers for the SPMs.

 

Here's one,  for starters...

 

 

Holyrood has delivered no improvement to Scotland

 

I sincerely hope some of those mentioned are prosecuted and those still involved in the PO or any other government body sacked immediately.

[Lone Striker]

Apologies if this had been posted already.

 

Here's the impressive MP Darren Jones 6 months ago grilling the senior PO execs whose main concern seems to have been governance of the bonus  remuneration process for themselves having closed their eyes & ears to the "possibility" that the PO financial results was based on false accounting - which is punishable in criminal law, and which was used to prosecute the sub-postmasters.

 

Apparently everyone at that high level needed to be "incentivised" to do their job.    They then ignored the explicit condition that approval was required from Wyn Williams (the Inquiry judge) and just paid themselves the money.

 

Nice that they all apologised though 

 

 

 

 

 

[Footballfirst]

Just for reference, here is a list of 68 witnesses to be called by the inquiry in phases 5 & 6.

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/list-witnesses-phases-5-and-6

 

Also for reference a list of the government ministers responsible for the PO during the the lifetime of Horizon.

 

Edited February 3 by Footballfirst

[henrysmithsgloves]

Thirteen million quid spent so far in Scotland on this enquiry 😳 we all know who's the true winners🤬

[Lone Striker]

14 hours ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

Thirteen million quid spent so far in Scotland on this enquiry 😳 we all know who's the true winners🤬

So much for the "crime doesn't pay" slogan, eh ?    

 

[periodictabledancer]

A 40 minute summary of the liars, morons & perjurers from the PO that have shamelessly appeared before the Inquiry last year.

From the most senior lawyers to the brain dead & over-promoted "investigators".

The bit around 30 mins  in is staggering : two lawyers  (Singh & Wilson) , on oath before the inquiry directly cotradicting each other , one of them is committing perjury. Which one ?

 

 

[henrysmithsgloves]

5 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

So much for the "crime doesn't pay" slogan, eh ?    

 

They'll no be on a living wage🤬

[periodictabledancer]

The Inquiry has closed Phase IV and will resume in April with the top level bosses and legal eagles being scheduled for a grilling .

 

This is a good summary of the revelations that were made by various PO (and their lawyers) liars & perjurers during the last phase.

Some of these scumbags are still employed by PO, some are even employed (probably,  unsurprisingly , by the Met).

 

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366568954/Post-Office-scandal-phase-fours-rogues-gallery

[Footballfirst]

The "Disclosure" programme on prosecutions in Scotland is due to be aired tonight, but can be viewed just now on iPlayer.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001w5w7/disclosure-scotlands-post-office-scandal