Horizon IT - Post Office - Public Enquiry

[periodictabledancer]

Is anybody on here following any of the public hearings currently or historically ?

Does anyone have any links to helpful blogs etc on the matter ? 

 

I've only just started getting into it and it's a mind blowing story of malicious/false prosecution of sub post masters by the Post Office who used data they knew to be highly questionable arising from their own IT system which Fujitsu (the supplier) knew from its erliest days had major problems.

Strong suggestions of a conspiracy within the Post Office and between the PO & Fujitsu to cover up the extent of the system failings  and "carry on regardless" with a system nor fit for purpose and which spewed out false data resulting in hundreds of wrongful prosecutions.

 

And if that wasn't bad enough , there's lots of evidence to indicate wholesale problems across the broader Post Office IT estate that resulted in widespread robbery from PO ATMs (Bank of Ireland won't allow PO to release the exact details & extent of it) , false transactions on Camelot lottery ticket sales and data integrity issues with 3rd party back end servers. That we know of, so far. The bulk of this isn't being covered in the public enquiry , which looks only at the calamitous Horizon system. 

 

In the meantime, wrongfully convicted (and in some cases , jailed) PO staff are facing the prospect of waiting another 10 or 15 years to have their names cleared because the CCRC doesn't have the satff to review the cases - many have already died witout  having their names cleared or getting compensation. 

 

And the icing on the cake - the compensation schemes (complicated, difficult , all three of them) are being administered by the the PO - the very body that caused the scandal in the first place. 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by periodictabledancer

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Amongst all the right wing hysteria about far right Farage, the CEO (and Anglican priest) was made a dame for services to the post office, in 2019. She was responsible for the wrongly convicted post masters taking their lives. Not a thing has ever happened to that horrible, bible basher.

 

Quote

In January 2020, as the High Court case against the Post Office ended, Vennells's tenure as CEO was strongly criticised by Conservative peer Lord Arbuthnot, who said: "The hallmark of Paula Vennells' time as CEO was that she was willing to accept appalling advice from people in her management and legal teams. The consequences of this were far-reaching for the Post Office and devastating for the subpostmasters. However, there seem to have been no consequences for her."[20] He described the behaviour of the Post Office under her leadership as "both cruel and incompetent", and said that "she was faced with a moral choice and she took the wrong one, the one which allowed hundreds of subpostmasters to be falsely accused, humiliated and ruined by the organisation she ran".

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Link to Private Eye's report.

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjrlNWfrbSAAxUyT0EAHVpGCfIQFnoECAMQAg&usg=AOvVaw3F1Z6dQwZso_ibWbUQe7GL

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

[Victorian]

Dame Vennells and a few others should already be in prison and it's virtually evil that the government hasn't moved heaven and earth to expedite an immediate pardon and full compensation for every single victim.

[periodictabledancer]

36 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Amongst all the right wing hysteria about far right Farage, the CEO (and Anglican priest) was made a dame for services to the post office, in 2019. She was responsible for the wrongly convicted post masters taking their lives. Not a thing has ever happened to that horrible, bible basher.

 

 

She hasn't been hauled in to give evidence yet - but she will be doing so.

 

[CF11JamTart]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

 

This is excellent. 

 

It's an absolute outrage. Fujitsu ineptitude followed by layer-upon-layer of cover-up. 

 

With the little guy as collateral damage 

[CF11JamTart]

1 minute ago, periodictabledancer said:

She hasn't been hauled in to give evidence yet - but she will be doing so.

 

I certainly hope so. 

[Footballfirst]

Follow Dan Neidle's posts on twitter and his contributions to https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/ (search for Horizon or Post office)

 

There is a lot of information in the court judgements, but they can be a it dry and long winded.  The main actions were Bates & Others v Post Office Ltd (I think no 3 was fairly detailed)

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/lucy_search_1.cgi?query=bates+post+office&datelow=&datehigh=&sort=rank&highlight=1

 

This Panorama programme will give some background.

 

[Footballfirst]

12 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Dame Vennells and a few others should already be in prison and it's virtually evil that the government hasn't moved heaven and earth to expedite an immediate pardon and full compensation for every single victim.

The Government is represented on the PO's Board. They are equally culpable.

[periodictabledancer]

16 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said:

I certainly hope so. 

It's definitely happening,  she's been called to appear in the next phase of hearings.

Popcorn time. 

[henrysmithsgloves]

Too late for our old postmistress. She lost her business/house  which she sold to pay the post office. Died penny less 🤬🤬

[frankblack]

30 minutes ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

Too late for our old postmistress. She lost her business/house  which she sold to pay the post office. Died penny less 🤬🤬

 

Shocking.

 

Should be serious jail time for those politicians and corporate types that stitched this up.

 

[kila]

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Shocking.

 

Should be serious jail time for those politicians and corporate types that stitched this up.

 

Much like the PPE fraud, there won’t be any charges or jail time. System is ****ed and let’s them away with it. 

[henrysmithsgloves]

13 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Shocking.

 

Should be serious jail time for those politicians and corporate types that stitched this up.

 

As usual, millions of taxpayers cash paid to friends,call it a public enquiry,make it last as possible extract the most cash and do fekk all🤬 look at the blood contamination scandal as an example🤬🤬

[Percival King]

I read Nick Wallis's excellent book about the scandal a year or two ago. It's an outrageous story which made me angrier the more I read. Not for the first time (nor probably the last) in this country, we appear to compound a scandal by creating another scandal rather than doing the hard, expensive but correct thing to try and right a wrong

There are sub-postmasters, sub-mistresses and Post Office staff who have been treated utterly appallingly and they have been so let down.

It's shameful and it's embarrassing.

 

[Toxteth O'Grady]

1 hour ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

As usual, millions of taxpayers cash paid to friends,call it a public enquiry,make it last as possible extract the most cash and do fekk all🤬 look at the blood contamination scandal as an example🤬🤬

Bang on. Our politicians are utter con men

[Dick Dastardly]

3 hours ago, Victorian said:

Dame Vennells and a few others should already be in prison and it's virtually evil that the government hasn't moved heaven and earth to expedite an immediate pardon and full compensation for every single victim.

They'll probably have to pay for their board and lodgings even when they get compensated 

[RobboM]

4 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Link to Private Eye's report.

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjrlNWfrbSAAxUyT0EAHVpGCfIQFnoECAMQAg&usg=AOvVaw3F1Z6dQwZso_ibWbUQe7GL

 

 

I was going to offer up Private Eye too. As well as above there are a couple of podcasts which will make you fume at the injustice carried out

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/podcast/49

[periodictabledancer]

Cheers for the various links, they helped to pass a boring night shift. 

The lack of governmental oversight and intervention is also a national disgrace.  These poor sods were failed at every step by any who could've saved them. 

[Footballfirst]

Another source of what went on.

 

 

[periodictabledancer]

27 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Another source of what went on.

 

 

[Victorian]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66843548

 

The government said the offer aimed to "bring a resolution to the scandal".

 

Well naw.  A full resolution will only arrive once the real criminals in this case have been served justice.

[Mikey1874]

Hundreds of people still have convictions against their name. 

[SectionDJambo]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66843548

 

The government said the offer aimed to "bring a resolution to the scandal".

 

Well naw.  A full resolution will only arrive once the real criminals in this case have been served justice.

You are correct.

The people who nonchalantly destroyed those people’s lives should be prosecuted for what they did.

At the very least, they should be sued for a substantial part of the total damages that the Post Office, and ultimately the public, will have to pay for.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by SectionDJambo

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Hundreds of people still have convictions against their name. 

Correct. 86 have had their convictions quashed. Even the government admits that over 600 were convicted related to Horizon issues.

 

I don't know what the delay is.  There has to be an easier way of having all the convictions ruled as "unsafe" without each individual coming forward.

[Eskilsson's Odyssey]

This could happen to any of us. Those in power decide to destroy your life, no one can stop them and they go unpunished even when proved completely wrong. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

No way should this be buried in return for money. The poor people should get compensation anyway but those who were responsible need to go to jail.

 

The best we can hope for is a mass civil action which bankrupts certain individuals and ruins their lives in return. It’s the least they deserve.

[Victorian]

I maintain that the culpability extends to the police and prosecutors.  We've seen why corporate actors turned a blind eye to the truth of what was going wrong.  Self preservation.  Why was the legal system unable to recognise the problem of a post office manager being prosecuted on a weekly basis?  Sometimes more.  No alarm bells going off that something was amiss?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

That Paula Vennells sounds like a right piece of shit

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, SectionDJambo said:

You are correct.

The people who nonchalantly destroyed those people’s lives should be prosecuted for what they did.

At the very least, they should be sued for a substantial part of the total damages that the Post Office, and ultimately the public, will have to pay for.

 

 

The software company should be liable for at least half of the damages.  No doubt they won't be.

 

However any MPs that played a part in knowingly convicting innocent people to cover up a failed IT project should be jailed.  Won't happen either, though.

[Lone Striker]

This is a golden opportunity for Starmer to seize the moral high ground surrounding this case by pledging that Labour will  take this miscarriage of justice as far as the law permits, and to  seek compensation from  the software company, and to bring prosecutions against senior PO executives for their negligence.

 

 Surely as a former DPP, he must promise to pursue this ?

 

 

[redjambo]

4 hours ago, Victorian said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66843548

 

The government said the offer aimed to "bring a resolution to the scandal".

 

Well naw.  A full resolution will only arrive once the real criminals in this case have been served justice.

 

Quite.

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

The software company should be liable for at least half of the damages.  No doubt they won't be.

 

However any MPs that played a part in knowingly convicting innocent people to cover up a failed IT project should be jailed.  Won't happen either, though.

It would be nice to think first part would happen but the contract will be watertight in their favour. Testing should have taken care of this but it has obviously failed.

As for head folk taking blame, not a cat in hell's chance. It will be a corporate team decision made under best endeavours with no responsibility attached to any individual.

 

[Victorian]

Ye don't say...

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/post-office-shredded-evidence-wrongful-convictions/

 

Arrest and prosecution of Vennels and anyone else involved in perverting the course of justice plz.

[periodictabledancer]

On 12/10/2023 at 09:03, Victorian said:

Ye don't say...

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/post-office-shredded-evidence-wrongful-convictions/

 

Arrest and prosecution of Vennels and anyone else involved in perverting the course of justice plz.

Vennells hasn't been called yet.

I get the feeling the inquiry is getting the other witnesses to dig her grave for her.

 

 If you haven't seen ex PC John Scott (POL Head of Security) denying any ability to recollect ANYTHING about his time at PO it's well worth a look. 

Scott failed to disclose to the inquiry in his written witness statement he had once been a copper (said he was awfy busy when asked to produce his witness statement so it slipped his mind) . He was asked - by Beer, KC "did our documents help remind you of your police service ?

 

Later, that moment also when the inquiry KC , Jason Beer points out to him the previous warning Scott received about perverting the course of justice is priceless. 

 

 

See also  "Rob Wilson". whose  testimony was destroyed before his eyes, Mandy "sorry , I don't remember" Talbot (senior legal POL figure) and numerous other amnesiacs. 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

9 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

Vennells hasn't been called yet.

I get the feeling the inquiry is getting the other witnesses to dig her grave for her.

 

 If you haven't seen ex PC John Scott (POL Head of Security) denying any ability to recollect ANYTHING about his time at PO it's well worth a look. 

Scott failed to disclose to the inquiry in his written witness statement he had once been a copper (said he was awfy busy when asked to produce his witness statement so it slipped his mind) . He was asked - by Beer, KC "did our documents help remind you of your police service ?

 

Later, that moment also when the inquiry KC , Jason Beer points out to him the previous warning Scott received about perverting the course of justice is priceless. 

 

 

See also  "Rob Wilson". whose  testimony was destroyed before his eyes, Mandy "sorry , I don't remember" Talbot (senior legal POL figure) and numerous other amnesiacs. 

Sounds like The Firm, by John Grisham.

 

One of my mates got arrested in Glasgow, after some trouble after Hearts playing through there (can't remember if it was Celtic or Huns). My mate admits he was looking at a hefty punishment, until one of the filth contradicted the other filths' statements, on the stand.

 

My mate, and everyone else got off, due to the filth lying. The judge wasn't best pleased with the filth, either.

[Victorian]

Campaign organisers are said to be considering starting private criminal prosecutions against Vennells and others.

 

Let it begin.

[Spellczech]

I had a PO credit card once. I only had it for the free foreign transactions. At first it was operated by IIRC AIB then Bank of Ireland then it was bought by a company called Zaza, who evenutually withdrew the product and cancelled the card. I don't think much of what the PO did was just them, I think they were trying to sell their brand as "safe" around the time of the 2008 banking crisis.

[Spellczech]

On 18/09/2023 at 21:44, Malinga the Swinga said:

It would be nice to think first part would happen but the contract will be watertight in their favour. Testing should have taken care of this but it has obviously failed.

As for head folk taking blame, not a cat in hell's chance. It will be a corporate team decision made under best endeavours with no responsibility attached to any individual.

 

Yep - Go/No Go decisions are always by a whole bunch of people together...I've seen those decisions made and everyone on the project is like "Really?" and then the firefighting starts...(though obviously in the case of the PO, it didn't! they went the blame route...Amazing that they didn't click when they reached double-figures in the "criminal" sub-postmasters count and just carried on!. IMO the entire board who ever discussed these prosecutions should now be in the dock...)

[Footballfirst]

17 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I had a PO credit card once. I only had it for the free foreign transactions. At first it was operated by IIRC AIB then Bank of Ireland then it was bought by a company called Zaza, who evenutually withdrew the product and cancelled the card. I don't think much of what the PO did was just them, I think they were trying to sell their brand as "safe" around the time of the 2008 banking crisis.

The issues with Horizon pre dated the banking crisis in 2008.  Recent testimony to the inquiry showed that they were aware of errors with the system in 2005/06 and were doing their utmost to hide these, even to the extent of having sub-postmasters admit liability and saying that they were wrong about defects in the Horizon. 

 

From July 2006

 

 

This is what they wanted a convicted postmaster to say in Nov 2006

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Footballfirst

[Spellczech]

4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The issues with Horizon pre dated the banking crisis in 2008.  Recent testimony to the inquiry showed that they were aware of errors with the system in 2005/06 and were doing their utmost to hide these, even to the extent of having sub-postmasters admit liability and saying that they were wrong about defects in the Horizon. 

Yep I was referring to the other areas the OP notes which the public inquiry doesn't cover. Seems the PO just over-stretched generally in trying to grow it's brand...

[Mysterion]

On 29/07/2023 at 18:11, Victorian said:

Dame Vennells and a few others should already be in prison and it's virtually evil that the government hasn't moved heaven and earth to expedite an immediate pardon and full compensation for every single victim.

 

Wonder if there is potential for a collective (crowd funded) private prosecution once the Inquiry concludes to deal with some of the people who covered this up.

 

The likes of Vennels should be stripped of honours.

[Footballfirst]

Also from December 2005

[Footballfirst]

I've been following the Horizon Inquiry today in preference to the Covid Inquiry. Today's evidence from Post Office lawyer Jarnail Singh has been car crash viewing, as he has tried to distance himself from his actions.

 

One email from 2010 he sent to senior management was particularly damning.

 

He tried to deny that these were his sentiments or words and that he was asked to write the email in this way, but could not remember who asked him to do so.

 

His email then went up the line to Dave Smith, the MD of the Post Office at the time, who responded as below.

 

then followed up by thanks from another of the senior business execs, Rod Ismay

 

 

 

 

 

[Victorian]

Jesus H.  These people are filth.  

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

This is worse than Covid tbh because it was deliberately stitching people up. Covid was total rank incompetence 

[Spellczech]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I've been following the Horizon Inquiry today in preference to the Covid Inquiry. Today's evidence from Post Office lawyer Jarnail Singh has been car crash viewing, as he has tried to distance himself from his actions.

 

One email from 2010 he sent to senior management was particularly damning.

 

He tried to deny that these were his sentiments or words and that he was asked to write the email in this way, but could not remember who asked him to do so.

 

His email then went up the line to Dave Smith, the MD of the Post Office at the time, who responded as below.

 

then followed up by thanks from another of the senior business execs, Rod Ismay

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmn appears not one senior person at the company wanted to actually get to grips with the questions abotu the systems and were more interested in sending thank you emails to their minions. TBH I've seen that in other businesses too, just not in relation to criminal trials...

[RobboM]

 

[Footballfirst]

P.O. lawyer Jarnail Singh's evidence continued today and he got to the point of of asking the chair if he could speak to his solicitor on the possibility of incriminating himself. He was granted 5 minutes and came back seemingly forgetting everything he had ever done. Over the piece he said "I don't/can't recall" (63 times), "I can't/don't remember" (12 times) or "It was a long time ago" (11 times)

 

Such was the need to tease out every answer from him he will have to return in the new year to complete his evidence.

 

Overall he came over as incompetent at best, but more likely a conniving and lying bar-steward.

[periodictabledancer]

Some nuggets of pure gold today :

SIngh is "more aggrieved " than the victims  - who endured false imprisonment, bankruptcy , a life time of poverty , suicide of loved ones. 

Singh admitted to a "dereliction of duties" , where he could remember anything at all (a rare moment).

He was told by the chair of the enquiry to be "succinct" in his answers which made him more aggrieved , given the passage of time , his age, the amount of paperwork the inquiry had dumped on him. He was then instructed to pause for a minute before answering. Still, he did not. 

It was literally incredible.