Horizon IT - Post Office - Public Enquiry

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Rodric Williams is amongst the most appalling witnesses to appear before the inquiry. It's alarming that he remains employed by POL and heads the POL's involvement in one of the compensation schemes.

 

I don't want to denigrate him if he suffers from a stammer, but his manner when answering questions appears to be one of panic. It smacks of him thinking "Oh shit. How can I answer this question without incriminating myself?". Hence he resorts to the stammering, claiming not to understand the question, buying time asking Mr Beer to repeat the question, answering a different question, or resorting to the standard "I don't recall".

 

He's a human puddle.  Abysmal.

 

Core participants about to begin.  Stein is not one of the counsels.  Drat.

[Victorian]

Shortfalls balancing payments that were extorted from SPMs were held in suspense accounts.  They covered up the existence of this because :

 

1.  The scale of the payments might tend to imply that there was a widespread pattern that might tend to support the position that there was a systemic problem and the claims of SPMs.

 

2.  That the funds were later extracted to sit in the main profit & loss accounts.  Itself fraudulent accounting practice by POL.

 

Couldn't make this shit up.

[Victorian]

Pure cunderthunt.  

[stuart500]

Susan Crichton today. 

 

Will she just do the decent thing and own up to the failures at every level in the way the prosecutions were handled?

 

Will she take any personal responsibility?

 

Probably not. Doubt she'll come over as badly as Roderic Williams though, the babbling unapologetic teflon man.

 

Will only catch the first hour this morning but will watch in full tonight.

[Footballfirst]

30 minutes ago, stuart500 said:

Susan Crichton today. 

 

Will she just do the decent thing and own up to the failures at every level in the way the prosecutions were handled?

 

Will she take any personal responsibility?

 

Probably not. Doubt she'll come over as badly as Roderic Williams though, the babbling unapologetic teflon man.

 

Will only catch the first hour this morning but will watch in full tonight.

Nope.  She "can't recall" receiving the Jarnail Singh "Horizon bashing bandwagon" email.

[Footballfirst]

Susan Crichton was an odd witness.  She was up to her neck in the "don't keep any records of meetings" advice, but does appear to have been managed out of her role because she was unable to manage the Second Sight independent review well enough (in the Post Office's interests of course).

 

It was telling that the then chair Alice Perkins (ex civil service) called her out for allowing the review to be truly "independent" and failed to exert any influence on its findings.

 

 

It says a lot about how the Government conducts reviews using the Civil Service.

 

Full account below.

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/the-bleatings-of-a-sorry-scapegoat-lady-susans-pity-party/

 

 

 

Edited April 23 by Footballfirst

[stuart500]

11 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Susan Crichton was an odd witness.  She was up to her neck in the "don't keep any records of meetings" advice, but does appear to have been managed out of her role because she was unable to manage the Second Sight independent review well enough (in the Post Office's interests of course).

 

It was telling that the then chair Alice Perkins (ex civil service) called her out for allowing the review to be truly "independent" and failed to exert any influence on its findings.

 

 

It says a lot about how the Government conducts reviews using the Civil Service.

 

Full account below.

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/the-bleatings-of-a-sorry-scapegoat-lady-susans-pity-party/

 

 

 

Only saw the first hour and last half hour of the evidence live so that summary fills a few gaps.

 

Her apology was pretty insipid. More about her being sorry for the events that happened rather than any personal involvement and responsibility.

 

She played the victim card a bit at the end. Poor her lost her job due to her impeccable principles which didn't fit in with the expected POL demand for a whitewashed 'independent' review. I suspect she was just too incompetent to steer the review in the expected manner.

 

Certainly no real attempt to get the truth out in the open, something she really should have included in her 'apology'.

[WorldChampions1902]

12 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Susan Crichton was an odd witness.  She was up to her neck in the "don't keep any records of meetings" advice, but does appear to have been managed out of her role because she was unable to manage the Second Sight independent review well enough (in the Post Office's interests of course).

 

It was telling that the then chair Alice Perkins (ex civil service) called her out for allowing the review to be truly "independent" and failed to exert any influence on its findings.

 

 

It says a lot about how the Government conducts reviews using the Civil Service.

 

Full account below.

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/the-bleatings-of-a-sorry-scapegoat-lady-susans-pity-party/

 

 

 

There’s not been much to smile about in this whole sordid affair, but the email highlighted in your link referring to “copulation”, made me laugh. And that gaffe was made by one of the POL lawyers.

[Footballfirst]

The first half day of Angela Van Den Bogerd's evidence to the inquiry has demonstrated that she lied to the High Court in 2018 in respect of her knowledge of remote access, saying that she only found out about it a year earlier. KC for the inquiry has shown her documents from 2010, 2011, 2013 and 2014 all advising her about the remote access facility.  She has adopted the usual defence of "I can't remember that email" or trying to deflect by saying that the messaging from the PO's hierarchy kept on changing.

 

I think the Old Bill should be paying her a visit following her evidence session.  

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

The first half day of Angela Van Den Bogerd's evidence to the inquiry has demonstrated that she lied to the High Court in 2018 in respect of her knowledge of remote access, saying that she only found out about it a year earlier. KC for the inquiry has shown her documents from 2010, 2011, 2013 and 2014 all advising her about the remote access facility.  She has adopted the usual defence of "I can't remember that email" or trying to deflect by saying that the messaging from the PO's hierarchy kept on changing.

 

I think the Old Bill should be paying her a visit following her evidence session.  

 

It fits in with the widespread strategies relied upon by all of the previous and otherwise senior and important characters.

 

I wasn't that important.  I was just a small and unimportant cog in the machine.  Look at all these other names.  I wasn't the only one.  I didn't know who was responsible for saying this,  doing that,  investigating this,  disclosing that.  I wasn't told about this,  I wasn't aware of that.  I don't recall seeing that,  I was unaware of the significance of this.  It goes on on an underlying theme.

 

It's all very akin to typical military captives counter-interrogation tactics.  Play the 'grey man(woman)'.

[Victorian]

The organisation had a ludicrous volume of middle management positions and a veritable game of musical chairs with who occupied them.  That in itself does tend to lend weight to the idea that very important information and facts were missed,  lost,  not understood,  not communicated very well.  

 

But what a dog's dinner of a management structure.  Lots of well paid jobs for the boys.

[Nookie Bear]

I'm listening to a podcast series on this at the moment and there is an episode focussed on the role of the SPM Union.

 

Did i miss this in the thread? There was a fleeting reference to it during Mr B v The Post Office i think but i wonder if their role should be under more scrutiny.

 

Led by George Thompson, it seems they put a massive pin in the bubble of the postmasters by cosying up to management and warning the members that the PO would lose the DWP business if word got our Horizon was defective. Basically threw its members under a bus.

[Footballfirst]

41 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

I'm listening to a podcast series on this at the moment and there is an episode focussed on the role of the SPM Union.

 

Did i miss this in the thread? There was a fleeting reference to it during Mr B v The Post Office i think but i wonder if their role should be under more scrutiny.

 

Led by George Thompson, it seems they put a massive pin in the bubble of the postmasters by cosying up to management and warning the members that the PO would lose the DWP business if word got our Horizon was defective. Basically threw its members under a bus.

I think that's a commonly held view.  He is due to give evidence to the inquiry on 21 June.

[Victorian]

I think the union was essentially an arm of the business and funded by it.  A hopelessly conflicted interest at best.  

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

I think that's a commonly held view.  He is due to give evidence to the inquiry on 21 June.

Excellent.

His point re losing business is valid but that's not his call to make.

[Lone Striker]

48 minutes ago, Victorian said:

I think the union was essentially an arm of the business and funded by it.  A hopelessly conflicted interest at best.  

Indeed.  A worker's union in name only.  Do you know how long it had been in existence ?  Had it always been funded by POL ?      

[Lone Striker]

4 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Excellent.

His point re losing business is valid but that's not his call to make.

Evidence from this  inquiry so far is painting a picture that dozens of senior POL management were probably of  a similar mindset.     They'd rather continue to believe that 100's of SPMs up and down the country were engaged in a mass conspiracy to steal money from their branches  so long as it protected them from the embarrassment of exposing  their own incompetence. 

 

 "Let's carry on prosecuting the bar stewards, and things will get better".

 

The "apologies" from POL senior managers so far have been laughable -  @Victorian post yesterday is  spot-on regarding the horrible culture that seems to have existed (and possibly  still does).

 

 

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Evidence from this  inquiry so far is painting a picture that dozens of senior POL management were probably of  a similar mindset.     They'd rather continue to believe that 100's of SPMs up and down the country were engaged in a mass conspiracy to steal money from their branches  so long as it protected them from the embarrassment of exposing  their own incompetence. 

 

 "Let's carry on prosecuting the bar stewards, and things will get better".

 

The "apologies" from POL senior managers so far have been laughable -  @Victorian post yesterday is  spot-on regarding the horrible culture that seems to have existed (and possibly  still does).

 

 

 

Which was a ridiculous notion because every SPM knew the first thing they would have to do (legally) is pay it back!

 

I get that companies do not want flaws advertised as it may affect business but when those flaws are causing innocent people to go to prison or even end their lives then somebody should have said 'enough' a long time ago.

[Victorian]

I'm interested in the potentially fraudulent and criminal accounting practices of POL when they transferred SPM shortfalls balancing repayments from suspense accounts into the profit & loss.  Money that never belonged to them forming an integral part of their year on year annual accounts.  A side issue.

 

Henry KC painted a devastating picture of AvdB being an inhumane liar,  but nothing was proved.  In the end it's just a series of allegations,  met with a straight bat.  More time should be given to these questions and the lack of time results in a bit of an unsatisfactory exercise.  A pity.

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Which was a ridiculous notion because every SPM knew the first thing they would have to do (legally) is pay it back!

 

I get that companies do not want flaws advertised as it may affect business but when those flaws are causing innocent people to go to prison or even end their lives then somebody should have said 'enough' a long time ago.

👍

27 minutes ago, Victorian said:

I'm interested in the potentially fraudulent and criminal accounting practices of POL when they transferred SPM shortfalls balancing repayments from suspense accounts into the profit & loss.  Money that never belonged to them forming an integral part of their year on year annual accounts.  A side issue.

 

Henry KC painted a devastating picture of AvdB being an inhumane liar,  but nothing was proved.  In the end it's just a series of allegations,  met with a straight bat.  More time should be given to these questions and the lack of time results in a bit of an unsatisfactory exercise.  A pity.

The topic of your first paragraph deserves full investigation and eventual prosecution of whoever owned that decision - there's an American ex-President being prosecuted for that type of corporate crime as we speak.

[Victorian]

8 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

👍

The topic of your first paragraph deserves full investigation and eventual prosecution of whoever owned that decision - there's an American ex-President being prosecuted for that type of corporate crime as we speak.

 

Hopefully a separate police investigation.  It would be a bit of an irony if people were prosecuted for false accounting,  or similar,  given that they forced (menaced) people into pleading guilty to that in order to avoid prison from a conviction for theft.  

[Victorian]

AvdB's lies will draw to a close under questions from Sam Stein.  45 mins session.

 

Lovely biscuits.

[Tommy Brown]

48 minutes ago, Victorian said:

AvdB's lies will draw to a close under questions from Sam Stein.  45 mins session.

 

Lovely biscuits.

Sounds good. Stein doesn't mince words.

Keep us posted, please

[Victorian]

More of the same.  A series of accusatory assertions,  easily denied.  No facts or revelations established.  No smoking guns.

 

Point of interest.  Earlier,  Beer referred to Vennells & AvdB at the parliamentary committee.  Vennells lied about various things there.  Beer stated that he cannot use the content of that appearance because it enjoys parliamentary privilege.  It will be interesting to see Vennells answer the same questions if put to her.  Issue the same lies (remain consistent) or find other ways to provide answers that do not represent lies to the inquiry,  yet somehow avoid changing her tune?

[ehcaley]

6 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

I'm listening to a podcast series on this at the moment and there is an episode focussed on the role of the SPM Union.

 

Did i miss this in the thread? There was a fleeting reference to it during Mr B v The Post Office i think but i wonder if their role should be under more scrutiny.

 

Led by George Thompson, it seems they put a massive pin in the bubble of the postmasters by cosying up to management and warning the members that the PO would lose the DWP business if word got our Horizon was defective. Basically threw its members under a bus.

I asked questions about George at the start of this thread and was given helpful information by FF.I have known him since school and he's always been about George.During his Militant years he

didnt get selected by the LP to stand for local council stood as an indepenent won a seat and formed his own wee party,joined the SNP and was Parliamentary Candidate for East Lothian,subsequently left SNP and concentrated on his job as General Secretary of the Postmasters Federation.

 

Currently runs Thomsons of Tranent ( Post Office,store and cafe/bar)

The press are fully aware of what he was up to and how close he was to Paula(the Federation and it's officials were fully funded by the PO) only ITV news have mentioned it so far.Speaking to one journo they are waiting for his turn at the enquiry

I have been amazed that very little attention has been focused on the Federation.

[Nookie Bear]

3 hours ago, ehcaley said:

I asked questions about George at the start of this thread and was given helpful information by FF.I have known him since school and he's always been about George.During his Militant years he

didnt get selected by the LP to stand for local council stood as an indepenent won a seat and formed his own wee party,joined the SNP and was Parliamentary Candidate for East Lothian,subsequently left SNP and concentrated on his job as General Secretary of the Postmasters Federation.

 

Currently runs Thomsons of Tranent ( Post Office,store and cafe/bar)

The press are fully aware of what he was up to and how close he was to Paula(the Federation and it's officials were fully funded by the PO) only ITV news have mentioned it so far.Speaking to one journo they are waiting for his turn at the enquiry

I have been amazed that very little attention has been focused on the Federation.

Cheers for that. 
 

Whilst it sounds like he failed to help his members and was clearly too close to the PO leadership, I am not sure if he can take more than a thin slice of the blame here. 
However, his failure to back the SPMs at a crucial time, effectively agreeing with the convictions, was a shocking thing to do and he deserves a day squirming under the spotlight. 

[stuart500]

17 hours ago, Victorian said:

More of the same.  A series of accusatory assertions,  easily denied.  No facts or revelations established.  No smoking guns.

 

Point of interest.  Earlier,  Beer referred to Vennells & AvdB at the parliamentary committee.  Vennells lied about various things there.  Beer stated that he cannot use the content of that appearance because it enjoys parliamentary privilege.  It will be interesting to see Vennells answer the same questions if put to her.  Issue the same lies (remain consistent) or find other ways to provide answers that do not represent lies to the inquiry,  yet somehow avoid changing her tune?

I felt that neither Sam Stein (nor Ed Henry for that matter who hasn't pulled his punches) made much inroads into AvdB - a very hard faced woman who simply denied outright, knowingly, doing anything wrong. She couldn't recall many important points. Remembered getting her bonus though, nicely enhanced by POL profits being boosted by the suspense account money stolen from the subpostmasters. The irony.

 

You would like to think that just one of this parcel of rogues would show some genuine remorse and be honest enough to admit the Post Office were criminally negligent or deliberately commited fraud in not disclosing evidence. Waive their right of self incrimination and just tell the truth!!

 

Vennells has the chance to start this off by admitting she lied to parliament. Take her punishment and let the rest follow. Not holding my breath.

 

 

 

 

[Lone Striker]

17 hours ago, ehcaley said:

 

 

Currently runs Thomsons of Tranent ( Post Office,store and cafe/bar)

The press are fully aware of what he was up to and how close he was to Paula(the Federation and it's officials were fully funded by the PO) only ITV news have mentioned it so far.Speaking to one journo they are waiting for his turn at the enquiry

I have been amazed that very little attention has been focused on the Federation.

Wow.    It would interesting to know if Horizon was giving him random imbalances too !!  And if so, was he ever accused of stealing money ?

[Victorian]

2 hours ago, stuart500 said:

I felt that neither Sam Stein (nor Ed Henry for that matter who hasn't pulled his punches) made much inroads into AvdB - a very hard faced woman who simply denied outright, knowingly, doing anything wrong. She couldn't recall many important points. Remembered getting her bonus though, nicely enhanced by POL profits being boosted by the suspense account money stolen from the subpostmasters. The irony.

 

You would like to think that just one of this parcel of rogues would show some genuine remorse and be honest enough to admit the Post Office were criminally negligent or deliberately commited fraud in not disclosing evidence. Waive their right of self incrimination and just tell the truth!!

 

Vennells has the chance to start this off by admitting she lied to parliament. Take her punishment and let the rest follow. Not holding my breath.

 

 

 

 

 

Two regular avenues have been used to avoid direct culpability for what was known and when.

 

1.   The unfortunate distinction between being aware of the ability of POL to alter branch accounts and Fujitsu of altering them.

 

2.  The equally unfortunate distinction between the ability to amend / change / correct existing transactions and the ability to insert balancing / corrective additional entries.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

This week's witnesses:

Tuesday 30 April	Hugh Flemington - former Head of Legal at Post Office Ltd Harry Bowyer - Barrister and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Wednesday 1 May	Martin Smith - Solicitor and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Thursday 2 May	Martin Smith - Solicitor and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Friday 3 May	Jarnail Singh - Solicitor and former lawyer at Royal Mail Group and Post Office Ltd

[Ked]

Justice served slower than stop.

For the sub postmaster and the criminals .

It's a sickener. 

Good posts from good posters on this.

 

[pharmaceutical01]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

This week's witnesses:

Tuesday 30 April	Hugh Flemington - former Head of Legal at Post Office Ltd Harry Bowyer - Barrister and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Wednesday 1 May	Martin Smith - Solicitor and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Thursday 2 May	Martin Smith - Solicitor and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Friday 3 May	Jarnail Singh - Solicitor and former lawyer at Royal Mail Group and Post Office Ltd

Thanks FF think Friday may be interesting viewing 

[stuart500]

11 hours ago, pharmaceutical01 said:

Thanks FF think Friday may be interesting viewing 

Jarnail Singh. 😂

 

Yes it should be cringeworthy stuff.

 

The man is meant to be a criminal lawyer. I think that should be criminally bad lawyer.

 

I started watching this during the previous phase and my missus said "Why the hell are you watching that?" Now she's totally hooked. Part of this is thanks to good old Jarnail after I showed her his last performance. She was gobsmacked that such an incompetent moron found himself in a position to be able to ruin so many lives. She's since realised he's not the only one.

[Nookie Bear]

16 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

This week's witnesses:

Tuesday 30 April	Hugh Flemington - former Head of Legal at Post Office Ltd Harry Bowyer - Barrister and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Wednesday 1 May	Martin Smith - Solicitor and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Thursday 2 May	Martin Smith - Solicitor and former employee of Cartwright King Solicitors
Friday 3 May	Jarnail Singh - Solicitor and former lawyer at Royal Mail Group and Post Office Ltd

 

Interesting but would they not be able to use the "following orders" mantra and, as long as they are not breaking any legal rules, they can just say they are doing their job.

 

Question is: where do the orders come from? The fact she became a non-executive board member of the Cabinet Office after leaving the PO tells its own story imo

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Interesting but would they not be able to use the "following orders" mantra and, as long as they are not breaking any legal rules, they can just say they are doing their job.

 

Question is: where do the orders come from? The fact she became a non-executive board member of the Cabinet Office after leaving the PO tells its own story imo

Apart from the potential criminal conspiracy aspects, any of the legal bods can probably be sanctioned for their disclosure failures.

[WorldChampions1902]

35 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Apart from the potential criminal conspiracy aspects, any of the legal bods can probably be sanctioned for their disclosure failures.

The Law Society has been investigating the conduct of these reptiles for at least 2 years, presumably with a view to imposing sanctions for serious misconduct. Will be interesting to see what (if anything) transpires.

[stuart500]

Lord Sikka a few months ago in the House of Lords was stating a pretty strong case to the Government Minister (I forget his name) that there was enough evidence against POL directors to start criminal charges. The Government Minister merely said that we must all await the findings of the Inquiry. Must be incredibly frustrating for those who have suffered and are awaiting justice.

 

I keep wondering if those at the real top will somehow wriggle out with a slap on the wrist, with some scapegoats being found at a lower level. Good luck Jarnail 😄.

 

 

[frankblack]

6 hours ago, stuart500 said:

Lord Sikka a few months ago in the House of Lords was stating a pretty strong case to the Government Minister (I forget his name) that there was enough evidence against POL directors to start criminal charges. The Government Minister merely said that we must all await the findings of the Inquiry. Must be incredibly frustrating for those who have suffered and are awaiting justice.

 

I keep wondering if those at the real top will somehow wriggle out with a slap on the wrist, with some scapegoats being found at a lower level. Good luck Jarnail 😄.

 

 

 

Think we'll have to wait until the Tories get emptied later in the year for any criminal proceedings to be initiated.

[WorldChampions1902]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Think we'll have to wait until the Tories get emptied later in the year for any criminal proceedings to be initiated.

We keep being told that the Met have been closely watching all developments in this whole s**tshow before deciding whether to initiate prosecutions. New government but same Police authority, doesn’t fill me with any confidence.

[Bindy Badgy]

"Are you going to remember more for us today"

 

 

 

[Footballfirst]

The latest PO lawyer Hugh Flemington giving evidence to the inquiry has clearly been heavily influenced by Jarnail Singh, given the frequency of "I can't recall" answers.

[Footballfirst]

Flemington's "apology" at the end of the session was incredible. He can't recall anything, then says he hopes that his evidence helps those who suffered.