Marti Cifuentes

[DC_92]

4 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Who said I think that? I didn't.

 

I'm asking what a clear upgrade looks like if it's not significantly more experience and a better record?

 

Guy might do rank here, who knows. On paper though, almost anyone is a clear upgrade. Anything else is just supposition, given Naismith has almost nothing for people to compare against. Doesn't mean he'd be the wrong choice though. Just asking what sort of metric people would use to determine a clear upgrade.

 

He's only a clear upgrade on Naismith if he's definitely going to do a better job than him. His record suggests that's far from clear.

 

There's a Scottish manager available who has three promotions, two 3rd place finishes and left teams mid-season in 2nd and 4th place. Presumably he'd be considered a clear upgrade on Naismith going by your criteria, but that wasn't evident in the last 4 months.

 

This Cifuentes guy could come in and (for example) not mesh with the players, struggle to adapt to the style of football or underestimate the level or types of signings he needs to make.

 

On the other hand, we've had a flavour of Naismith so far and, based on what we've seen, we can be reasonably sure that the squad are bought in to what he's doing. He has an established relationship with the players and an intimate knowledge of where the flaws in the team are. We've seen signs of improvement in performances in the team and a clear improvement in some individuals.

 

None of that is anything like a guarantee of success, but it provides a degree of reassurance when he's compared to a foreign-based manager who has a long, but mixed, record.

 

As for what a clear upgrade does look like, I'd say Steve Clarke going to Killie is a good example. He knew the league and had loads of experience coaching and managing at a much higher level.

 

If there's a Steve Clarke type appointment available then I'm all for it. If not, and Cifuentes is the best of the outside candidates, I'm unenthusiastically saying we should stick with Naismith.

[frankblack]

23 minutes ago, DC_92 said:

 

He's only a clear upgrade on Naismith if he's definitely going to do a better job than him. His record suggests that's far from clear.

 

There's a Scottish manager available who has three promotions, two 3rd place finishes and left teams mid-season in 2nd and 4th place. Presumably he'd be considered a clear upgrade on Naismith going by your criteria, but that wasn't evident in the last 4 months.

 

This Cifuentes guy could come in and (for example) not mesh with the players, struggle to adapt to the style of football or underestimate the level or types of signings he needs to make.

 

On the other hand, we've had a flavour of Naismith so far and, based on what we've seen, we can be reasonably sure that the squad are bought in to what he's doing. He has an established relationship with the players and an intimate knowledge of where the flaws in the team are. We've seen signs of improvement in performances in the team and a clear improvement in some individuals.

 

None of that is anything like a guarantee of success, but it provides a degree of reassurance when he's compared to a foreign-based manager who has a long, but mixed, record.

 

As for what a clear upgrade does look like, I'd say Steve Clarke going to Killie is a good example. He knew the league and had loads of experience coaching and managing at a much higher level.

 

If there's a Steve Clarke type appointment available then I'm all for it. If not, and Cifuentes is the best of the outside candidates, I'm unenthusiastically saying we should stick with Naismith.

 

Correct - god forbid we get another manager who doesn't know Scottish football and comes in and tries to enforce a style of football that he doesn't have the players for.

 

I was hesitant with Naismith being appointed but I think there is signs that if he gets the right players in he might be able to get us back pushing for third next season.

Edited May 29, 2023 by frankblack

[Taffin]

39 minutes ago, DC_92 said:

 

He's only a clear upgrade on Naismith if he's definitely going to do a better job than him. His record suggests that's far from clear. 

 

There's not a manager or person in existence that can provide that definitively. That cannot be the stick with which others are measured against.

 

His record absolutely does suggest it though. Naismith has no record to go up against it with. 7 games and 2 wins isn't a record. We've literally nothing to compare between the two. One has a track record, one doesn't. Again, it doesn't mean he'd do better though 

 

 

39 minutes ago, DC_92 said:

 

There's a Scottish manager available who has three promotions, two 3rd place finishes and left teams mid-season in 2nd and 4th place. Presumably he'd be considered a clear upgrade on Naismith going by your criteria, but that wasn't evident in the last 4 months. 

 

My criteria? I'm the one asking what the criteria is. Now I know it's "definitely do better" then it's a pointless discussion as that person does not exist.

 

On paper though, yes that's a better appointment than Naismith...but I'm not suggesting it's made on paper evidence.

 

39 minutes ago, DC_92 said:

 

This Cifuentes guy could come in and (for example) not mesh with the players, struggle to adapt to the style of football or underestimate the level or types of signings he needs to make.

 

On the other hand, we've had a flavour of Naismith so far and, based on what we've seen, we can be reasonably sure that the squad are bought in to what he's doing. He has an established relationship with the players and an intimate knowledge of where the flaws in the team are. We've seen signs of improvement in performances in the team and a clear improvement in some individuals.

 

None of that is anything like a guarantee of success, but it provides a degree of reassurance when he's compared to a foreign-based manager who has a long, but mixed, record.

 

As for what a clear upgrade does look like, I'd say Steve Clarke going to Killie is a good example. He knew the league and had loads of experience coaching and managing at a much higher level.

 

If there's a Steve Clarke type appointment available then I'm all for it. If not, and Cifuentes is the best of the outside candidates, I'm unenthusiastically saying we should stick with Naismith.

 

 

I know nothing much of Cifuentes, nor am I advocating for him. However objectively if you were another club, which would you choose? Probably the one with some success and experience, no? Which is all I'm trying to find out, if it's not that, what is it that constitutes a clear upgrade.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Taffin

[JamboAl]

20 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

There's not a manager or person in existence that can provide that definitively.

My criteria? I'm the one asking what the criteria is. Now I know it's "definitely do better" then it's a pointless discussion as that person does not exist.

 

On paper though, yes that's a better appointment than Naismith...but I'm not suggesting it's made on paper evidence.

 

 

 

I

Correct.

The opposite is true also.

Man U once appointed an ex Aberdeen manager and his initial results were so poor the fans wanted him out.

The club stuck with him (for whatever reason) and he went on to win the odd trophy here and there.

In short, there are no certain upgrades  You don't really know what you're getting until you've got it.

[Taffin]

16 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Correct.

The opposite is true also.

Man U once appointed an ex Aberdeen manager and his initial results were so poor the fans wanted him out.

The club stuck with him (for whatever reason) and he went on to win the odd trophy here and there.

In short, there are no certain upgrades  You don't really know what you're getting until you've got it.

 

Agreed 👍

 

 

Side note:

Went to 'like' this. Why don't we have that functionality on here? It exists on another football forum I use and it saves the 'agreed', 'me too' spam etc when ignoring a post feels rude.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Taffin

[DC_92]

7 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

There's not a manager or person in existence that can provide that definitively. That cannot be the stick with which others are measured against.

 

His record absolutely does suggest it though. Naismith has no record to go up against it with. 7 games and 2 wins isn't a record. We've literally nothing to compare between the two. One has a track record, one doesn't. Again, it doesn't mean he'd do better though 

 

 

 

My criteria? I'm the one asking what the criteria is. Now I know it's "definitely do better" then it's a pointless discussion as that person does not exist.

 

On paper though, yes that's a better appointment than Naismith...but I'm not suggesting it's made on paper evidence.

 

 

 

I know nothing much of Cifuentes, nor am I advocating for him. However objectively if you were another club, which would you choose? Probably the one with some success and experience, no? Which is all I'm trying to find out, if it's not that, what is it that constitutes a clear upgrade.

 

Like I say, they're only a clear upgrade if they're clearly going to do a better job. Ok, we can't deal in definitives but we can make a reasonable assessment of the probabilities.

 

Steve Clarke going to Killie had a high probability of success. He had as good or a better a knowledge of the league and the Scottish footballing culture as Naismith does, as well as a lot more experience coaching and managing at a higher level. This type of appointment would be a clear upgrade on Naismith.

 

Cifuentes has more experience but not at a significantly higher level and his achievements are far from outstanding. More importantly, he'd bring a lot of unknowns in how he'd adapt to the league and the club and how his personality/management style would fit in, unlike Naismith. The probability of him doing a good job is not significantly higher than Naismith (if at all) so he isn't a clear upgrade imo.

 

I don't accept the premise of the last question because we aren't appointing a manager for another club, we're appointing a manager for Hearts. If we played in the Swedish league or something and Naismith had no profile at the club, Cifuentes would absolutely be the better bet, but that isn't the case.

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, Nerja Jambo said:

So basically what we are saying is there are no experienced managers within our budget that we could employ. We can't appoint any one who has never coached in the SPL before albeit that was what most wanted at the start, so we'll have to appoint SN because he has improved things over 7 games and he is the best of the rest. Wonderful, how ambitious.

Good post.

Certainly appointing Naismith would please the west coast monkeys.

[BackOfTheNet]

33 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Agreed 👍

 

 

Side note:

Went to 'like' this. Why don't we have that functionality on here? It exists on another football forum I use and it saves the 'agreed', 'me too' spam etc when ignoring a post feels rude.

Swore there was a trial of that back in the day. Was when I first frequented the forum in a now lost (forgotten) username and password. Must be around 15-20 years ago. Think people didn’t like it as it started turning into a popularity contest, which I get, but I also agree with what you say that there’s some posts that require replies as to ignore would be rude. And that just causes spam.

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, BackOfTheNet said:

Swore there was a trial of that back in the day. Was when I first frequented the forum in a now lost (forgotten) username and password. Must be around 15-20 years ago. Think people didn’t like it as it started turning into a popularity contest, which I get, but I also agree with what you say that there’s some posts that require replies as to ignore would be rude. And that just causes spam.

 

Yeh I think that was 'rep' which, yeh can be a bit of a pissing contest. The other forum you click it and have options of like 'agree', 'thumbs up', 'disagree' etc. Might cut down on the endless debate...which I'm utterly guilty of 😂

[BackOfTheNet]

6 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Yeh I think that was 'rep' which, yeh can be a bit of a pissing contest. The other forum you click it and have options of like 'agree', 'thumbs up', 'disagree' etc. Might cut down on the endless debate...which I'm utterly guilty of 😂

Agreed 

[Gav M]

3 hours ago, Jack Torrance said:

Neil MacFarlane: MacFarlane is the current assistant manager at Hearts and has been working with the club for a number of years. He is a highly-rated coach and would be a safe option for the board.

 

did I miss something? could have sworn he was at Brentford!

[Ian Black 8]

5 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Who would you give the job to? 😄

Still scratching my head Dave 🤷‍♂️ I thought when Wilder’s name was mentioned it was an interesting one. Wasn’t that long ago he got Sheffield Utd into Europe hasn’t done to well since but makes you wonder the players he might attract. Based on this season and the work that needs done wouldn’t be surprised if Naisy got it he’s worked with the current group and might have an idea who needs to go and what needs to come in. I’d get someone in asap though 👍

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, Ian Black 8 said:

Still scratching my head Dave 🤷‍♂️ I thought when Wilder’s name was mentioned it was an interesting one. Wasn’t that long ago he got Sheffield Utd into Europe hasn’t done to well since but makes you wonder the players he might attract. Based on this season and the work that needs done wouldn’t be surprised if Naisy got it he’s worked with the current group and might have an idea who needs to go and what needs to come in. I’d get someone in asap though 👍

I'm not sure either. Needs resolved this week though. 

[David McCaig]

5 minutes ago, Ian Black 8 said:

Still scratching my head Dave 🤷‍♂️ I thought when Wilder’s name was mentioned it was an interesting one. Wasn’t that long ago he got Sheffield Utd into Europe hasn’t done to well since but makes you wonder the players he might attract. Based on this season and the work that needs done wouldn’t be surprised if Naisy got it he’s worked with the current group and might have an idea who needs to go and what needs to come in. I’d get someone in asap though 👍

I think Chris Wilder is the only Manager to have gained promotion from the National League, L2, L1 and Championship.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Correct - god forbid we get another manager who doesn't know Scottish football and comes in and tries to enforce a style of football that he doesn't have the players for.

 

I was hesitant with Naismith being appointed but I think there is signs that if he gets the right players in he might be able to get us back pushing for third next season.

If you think he’s right then we should give him a miss tbh

[Paisley Jambo]

No thanks. Naisy for me

[frankblack]

12 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

If you think he’s right then we should give him a miss tbh

 

Nobody cares what you post pal, all you do is take cheap shots at people.

[jtkb]

Nothing about this guys CV really impresses me if not naisy want a guy who has won something as senior coach and decent experience at senior level.

[jtkb]

Was interested in wilder until i found out he is more negative than Levien 😔

[Daveandal]

Domestically the only people around who have records that would be anywhere near acceptable would be McInnes or ironically Neilson. Neither are getting it or would be acceptable to fans.

 

So it's Naismith (some pros but also some cons). Or it's an outside of the box appointment. If it's the later a No 2 who knows the league but crucially he'll take advice from is critical.

 

Gut feeling it will be Naismith and we'll have a season very similar to the previous one under Robbie but hopefully we go a step further and win something.

[Jack Torrance]

2 hours ago, Gav M said:

did I miss something? could have sworn he was at Brentford!

Indeed he is. My AI must be from Peebles 😄

[The Real Maroonblood]

29 minutes ago, jtkb said:

Nothing about this guys CV really impresses me if not naisy want a guy who has won something as senior coach and decent experience at senior level.

So Paulo Sergio would fit your requirements. 

[periodictabledancer]

6 hours ago, Nerja Jambo said:

So basically what we are saying is there are no experienced managers within our budget that we could employ. We can't appoint any one who has never coached in the SPL before albeit that was what most wanted at the start, so we'll have to appoint SN because he has improved things over 7 games and he is the best of the rest. Wonderful, how ambitious.

This. 

RN did what he was asked , delivered promotion.

Other than that the "quality" of the football is woeful , there's no apparent prorgression from an academy that's cost millions and there's little hope of doing anything in Europe with this squad (even with Halkett et al).

Time to be bold.

Edited May 29, 2023 by periodictabledancer

[davemclaren]

42 minutes ago, jtkb said:

Nothing about this guys CV really impresses me if not naisy want a guy who has won something as senior coach and decent experience at senior level.

hopefully they've had a close look at John Hughesie and Callum Davidson's cvs. 🥸

[Finlay James]

This guy is well thought of across Europe, he is on an upward trajectory.

 

I still think we’ll appoint Naismith though.

[davemclaren]

16 minutes ago, Finlay James said:

This guy is well thought of across Europe, he is on an upward trajectory.

 

I still think we’ll appoint Naismith though.

I'm not convinced he would see us as a particularly upward move. 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

16 minutes ago, Finlay James said:

This guy is well thought of across Europe, he is on an upward trajectory.

 

I still think we’ll appoint Naismith though.

Aye but some gadgies in Gorgie don’t think he is up to much.. 

[Finlay James]

9 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

Aye but some gadgies in Gorgie don’t think he is up to much.. 

 

Thankfully, the club will do more due diligence than just look at his record and stats.

[Jack Torrance]

Maybe we should do Rock, Paper, Scissors?

[Famous 1874]

On 28/05/2023 at 13:38, Famous 1874 said:

A mate told me yesterday that the club have spoken to him. That I assume is causing the movement in price

 

[Famous 1874]

On 28/05/2023 at 13:38, Famous 1874 said:

A mate told me yesterday that the club have spoken to him. That I assume is causing the movement in price

Double post 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Famous 1874

[Dazo]

On 29/05/2023 at 19:10, Finlay James said:

This guy is well thought of across Europe, he is on an upward trajectory.

 

I still think we’ll appoint Naismith though.

I’m not disputing what you are saying but how did you get to opinion he is well thought of in Europe ? 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Got to love the Record, they told us on Monday something totally different

[Polonia Gorgie]

49 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Got to love the Record, they told us on Monday something totally different

That's how tight lipped the club have been so far regarding a new appointment. No one at all seems be ITK or have any type of good information.

[tiger Rudi]

On 29/05/2023 at 15:03, DC_92 said:

 

He's only a clear upgrade on Naismith if he's definitely going to do a better job than him. His record suggests that's far from clear.

 

There's a Scottish manager available who has three promotions, two 3rd place finishes and left teams mid-season in 2nd and 4th place. Presumably he'd be considered a clear upgrade on Naismith going by your criteria, but that wasn't evident in the last 4 months.

 

This Cifuentes guy could come in and (for example) not mesh with the players, struggle to adapt to the style of football or underestimate the level or types of signings he needs to make.

 

On the other hand, we've had a flavour of Naismith so far and, based on what we've seen, we can be reasonably sure that the squad are bought in to what he's doing. He has an established relationship with the players and an intimate knowledge of where the flaws in the team are. We've seen signs of improvement in performances in the team and a clear improvement in some individuals.

 

None of that is anything like a guarantee of success, but it provides a degree of reassurance when he's compared to a foreign-based manager who has a long, but mixed, record.

 

As for what a clear upgrade does look like, I'd say Steve Clarke going to Killie is a good example. He knew the league and had loads of experience coaching and managing at a much higher level.

 

If there's a Steve Clarke type appointment available then I'm all for it. If not, and Cifuentes is the best of the outside candidates, I'm unenthusiastically saying we should stick with Naismith.

I go along with all of this...... apart from the last sentence. If there's not a Steve Clarke type applied, then we get right behind Naisy and give him all the support he needs, with all the enthusiasm we can muster. Season's only just finished but I'm looking forward to seeing just who Naisy identifies as potential targets. Judging by his talk of late, he's firmly on the same page as most of us on here. CB and midfield a priority. 

[Armageddon]

On 29/05/2023 at 19:10, Finlay James said:

This guy is well thought of across Europe, he is on an upward trajectory.

 

I still think we’ll appoint Naismith though.

 

Have you seen their league results this season?  Honking.

 

Naismith all the way for me.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Armageddon

[Agentjambo]

3 minutes ago, Armageddon said:

 

Have you seen their league results this season?  Honking.

 

Naismith all the way for me.

Have you seen ours the last 7 games?

 

[counting sheep]

On 29/05/2023 at 17:42, jtkb said:

Nothing about this guys CV really impresses me if not naisy want a guy who has won something as senior coach and decent experience at senior level.

Naisy doesn't have a managerial CV. If you want to compare managerial experience then he's a better option 

[BackOfTheNet]

This is all very confusing. If Naismith had all his games like his first against Hibs this Cifuentes development would all be very exciting news. But I genuinely think Naismith is onto something. So I’m torn.

[Valois No1]

Just now, Agentjambo said:

Have you seen ours the last 7 games?

 

This.....2 wins from Naisy isn't exactly inspiring however there were a lot of positives within them....even in defeat at times. I dont want Naisy but if its him he will have my support.

[Armageddon]

3 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

Have you seen ours the last 7 games?

 

 

Aye, but Naismith has been trying to turn round the Costa Concordia.

[Locky]

Thing that unsettles me if we're only pushing to get Cifuentes now, is this could take a while. Hammarby are right in the middle of their season and aren't going to want to lose their manager so will drive a hard bargain. Players are to report back to training in 3 weeks time and we've no idea how long it could take to get through all the red tape.

 

If that's the route the club choose and we get our man, then of course I'll back him. But I'd like us to have this resolved ASAP so that the new manager has a clear plan of what he wants to do and can get straight to work as soon as the squad are back at Oriam. 

 

I was of the belief that Naismith would get it, but I'm surprised its taking this long if he's the man we want. I was very much expecting him to have been announced last night or this morning.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Locky

[Dazo]

4 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

Have you seen ours the last 7 games?

 

I’m guessing he has and you haven’t. If you had said results you’d almost have a point. 

[Kyle Lafferty HoMSC]

If he is up for taking the job and we opt for Naisy instead, a part of me can't help feeing that we will look back in 5 years with more than a tinge of regret.

 

Then again, Naisy could be equally as good, but just doesn't have the reputation just yet. 

 

Although the chinos have to go.

[Dazo]

Just now, Locky said:

Thing that unsettles me if we're only pushing to get Cifuentes now, is this could take a while. Hammarby are right in the middle of their season and aren't going to want to lose their manager so will drive a hard bargain. Players are to report back to training in 3 weeks time and we've no idea how long it could take to get through all the red tape.

 

If that's the route the club choose and we get our man, then of course I'll back him. But I'd like us to have this resolved ASAP so that the new manager has a clear plan of what he wants to do and can get straight to work as soon as the squad are back at Oriam. 

If he has been interviewed I doubt there is any issues that will hold him up, they might be desperate to get rid. 😂

[Agentjambo]

Just now, Dazo said:

I’m guessing he has and you haven’t. If you had said results you’d almost have a point. 

That is what I meant,every appointment will have a certain risk attached to it however I’d rather take an educated risk than a blind shot in the dark.

[Locky]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

If he has been interviewed I doubt there is any issues that will hold him up, they might be desperate to get rid. 😂

The league table suggests they'd probably be quite happy to bring in someone new, but imagine they'll still look to drive a hard bargain.

[Italian Lambretta]

1 hour ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Got to love the Record, they told us on Monday something totally different

And we don’t even have a game this weekend. What’s wrong with them?

[jtkb]

Has this guy managed at team in european cup competions yet. Also see a few saying he is highly rated can someone point me to who thinks he is highly rated. Have googled his name can see no link to highly rated only by a few specialist football gurus on this thread. Asking as a gadgey gorgie boy 😃

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, Locky said:

The league table suggests they'd probably be quite happy to bring in someone new, but imagine they'll still look to drive a hard bargain.

Dunno imagine we actually got money for getting rid of RN. 😂