Is there anything in politics more shit than the Labour Party?

[Gundermann]

15 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Could they maybe not try talking about what they might do in government?  They've had plenty of time to come up with something. 

 

Actually, they have. They will just do everything the Tories have done, from keeping Brexit to opposing Indyref2 to being 'hard' on immigration to keeping anti-trade union legislation and Bedroom Tax.

[Mikey1874]

One thing Labour will do

 

 

[Gundermann]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

One thing Labour will do

 

 

 

Scot Gov have done that already, no?

[Mikey1874]

35 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Actually, they have. They will just do everything the Tories have done, from keeping Brexit to opposing Indyref2 to being 'hard' on immigration to keeping anti-trade union legislation and Bedroom Tax.

 

Labour have plans to change the union rules.

 

You must have missed it. Though I doubt you were paying attention since its been publicised very widely.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Scot Gov have done that already, no?

 

No. One of the proposals for independence.

[Mikey1874]

 

[Gundermann]

46 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

No. One of the proposals for independence.

 

Seems like it has.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50665658

[Gundermann]

49 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Labour have plans to change the union rules.

 

You must have missed it. Though I doubt you were paying attention since its been publicised very widely.

 

 

 

Perhaps I just can't keep track of Sir Keir's flip flopping?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/08/labour-urged-to-say-whether-it-would-scrap-new-anti-protest-laws

[Ulysses]

46 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Perhaps I just can't keep track of Sir Keir's flip flopping?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/08/labour-urged-to-say-whether-it-would-scrap-new-anti-protest-laws

 

 

The Green Party MP Caroline Lucas said: “If Labour isn’t going to stand up for fundamental human rights, then that is really chilling and we’re in a very serious place …"

[Mikey1874]

 

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

 

Labour bending the knee to right-wing hypocrisy again instead of arguing its case. Not even in tune with own voters.

 

Interesting to see Corbyn rated best Labour leader of past century.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/jeremy-corbyn-named-the-most-popular-leader-of-the-past-century-among-labour-members-174838/

[Ulysses]

51 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Labour bending the knee to right-wing hypocrisy again instead of arguing its case. Not even in tune with own voters.

 

Interesting to see Corbyn rated best Labour leader of past century.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/jeremy-corbyn-named-the-most-popular-leader-of-the-past-century-among-labour-members-174838/

 

Only a minority of households get child-related benefits.  Is it any surprise there'd be a majority in favour of restricting them?  The Labour Party is supposed to do things for people, not just selfish people.

[H2]

4 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

One thing Labour will do

 

 

Abolishing dominational schools, would also save a lot of money.

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Labour bending the knee to right-wing hypocrisy again instead of arguing its case. Not even in tune with own voters.

 

Interesting to see Corbyn rated best Labour leader of past century.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/jeremy-corbyn-named-the-most-popular-leader-of-the-past-century-among-labour-members-174838/

 

That alone sums up the state of the Labour membership that Clement Atlee finishes behind Corbyn. 

 

A political titan less popular than a student politician. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

That alone sums up the state of the Labour membership that Clement Atlee finishes behind Corbyn. 

 

A political titan less popular than a student politician. 

Precisely what I was thinking when I read it.  You would think that uf someone was interested enough to join a political party they might learn a little about the party. It's like comparing iDS with Churchill. 

[Roxy Hearts]

10 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

That alone sums up the state of the Labour membership that Clement Atlee finishes behind Corbyn. 

 

A political titan less popular than a student politician. 

Labour are so far removed from Labour BR it's extremely bizarre!

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Precisely what I was thinking when I read it.  You would think that uf someone was interested enough to join a political party they might learn a little about the party. It's like comparing iDS with Churchill. 

 

Yep that so many don't know enough about him to make a comment is a bit grim. He's one of the most important British politicians in history. 

 

It's kinda made me sad. 

 

3 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Labour are so far removed from Labour BR it's extremely bizarre!

 

But when Labour offered a mprr traditional Labour platform in Corbyn in 2017 and 19 they still lost? I know a lot of people don't feel that Labour represents them when they shift towards the centre more but I really don't know what the solution is to that if you want to actually be able to make a tangible difference. Personally I would be curious to see how a Corbyn platform did when it wasn't being led by two highly divisive figures. If the arse had stood down after 2017 maybe we could have tried it. Instead he decided to stick around and get boabbied by Boris. 

 

 

[Ulysses]

36 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

That alone sums up the state of the Labour membership that Clement Atlee finishes behind Corbyn. 

 

A political titan less popular than a student politician. 

 

The three most popular leaders in the poll never actually led the party in government.  And whole swathes of Labour party members have never heard of Attlee or Wilson.  Feck sake.

[BlueRiver]

20 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

The three most popular leaders in the poll never actually led the party in government.  And whole swathes of Labour party members have never heard of Attlee or Wilson.  Feck sake.

 

Can't help but think Miliband is polling better there than he would've when leader as well. 

 

[BlueRiver]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/nov/12/ed-miliband-is-the-most-unpopular-leader-among-labour-supporters-ever

 

Some resurrection. 

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

54 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Yep that so many don't know enough about him to make a comment is a bit grim. He's one of the most important British politicians in history. 

 

It's kinda made me sad. 

 

 

But when Labour offered a mprr traditional Labour platform in Corbyn in 2017 and 19 they still lost? I know a lot of people don't feel that Labour represents them when they shift towards the centre more but I really don't know what the solution is to that if you want to actually be able to make a tangible difference. Personally I would be curious to see how a Corbyn platform did when it wasn't being led by two highly divisive figures. If the arse had stood down after 2017 maybe we could have tried it. Instead he decided to stick around and get boabbied by Boris. 

 

 

I think a big chunk of the English electorate have changed their ideals. Labour are the next turd floating towards whatever they think they expect!

[Portable Badger]

6 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Labour have plans to change the union rules.

 

You must have missed it. Though I doubt you were paying attention since its been publicised very widely.

 

 

I would imagine if/when they get into power most of these won’t happen

[Mikey1874]

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Even if admit Bevan was a greater leader than Corbyn . 

[Jeffros Furios]

2 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

That alone sums up the state of the Labour membership that Clement Atlee finishes behind Corbyn. 

 

A political titan less popular than a student politician. 

This weird fascination with the guy who got hammered by Boris is pathetic .

The left of Labour have to realise most people are middle ground and wanting Labour to be left wing will only keep them out of power for a longer period .

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

The three most popular leaders in the poll never actually led the party in government.  And whole swathes of Labour party members have never heard of Attlee or Wilson.  Feck sake.

Education just isn't what it used to be.

Then again most of the teachers would be struggling to know who Attlee and Wilson were.

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

That alone sums up the state of the Labour membership that Clement Atlee finishes behind Corbyn. 

 

A political titan less popular than a student politician. 

 

And yet, Corbyn is probably to the right of Atlee. Funny that.

[Gundermann]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

The three most popular leaders in the poll never actually led the party in government.  And whole swathes of Labour party members have never heard of Attlee or Wilson.  Feck sake.

 

It was'nt that long since they couldn't even spell Keir Hardie and plastered the mistake in front of their conference.

[BlueRiver]

1 minute ago, Gundermann said:

 

And yet, Corbyn is probably to the right of Atlee. Funny that.

 

Almost like the mid-1940s was a totally different time eh? 

 

Mental. 

[BlueRiver]

I'm also not sure I accept your assertion in honesty. 

[Gundermann]

3 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Almost like the mid-1940s was a totally different time eh? 

 

Mental. 

 

Almost like we've regressed?

 

That's mental.

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Almost like we've regressed?

 

That's mental.

 

Perhaps. Failing to see that the political landscape has changed though is more the issue than anything. 

 

Except I still disagree profoundly. Atlee would never have taken the foreign policy positions or even many of the social positions Corbyn took. 

 

There may be certain economic factors that have regressed but you go and check the NHS on offer in 1946 or how generous welfare was. 

[BlueRiver]

 

Slightly out of date given where it runs to but even with the turbo Tories in power I don't think we'll have seen big enough cuts. 

 

Also an inconvenient graph when you consider that one of the biggest increases in real terms benefit spending comes from that left-wing bogey man Tony Blair and New Labour. 

 

But they're aw the same eh. 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Slightly out of date given where it runs to but even with the turbo Tories in power I don't think we'll have seen big enough cuts. 

 

Also an inconvenient graph when you consider that one of the biggest increases in real terms benefit spending comes from that left-wing bogey man Tony Blair and New Labour. 

 

But they're aw the same eh. 

 

I'd like to see a breakdown of those figures to see what's behind them and how they're calculated.  I am aware that one major driver of the increase in welfare spending across Europe since the mid-90s has been a significant increase in pension payments, simply because the number of elderly people has risen so much.  But I've no idea how much of the change in UK benefit spending is caused by that.

 

Full disclosure: I never went to bed the night Blair's Labour won the 1997 General Election.  I stayed up watching the results and having some beers to celebrate, and I took the Friday off work - and I'm not even British.  So it's not as if I have a political animus towards Labour - quite the opposite.  But I look at the timid, vapid, fatuous, shilly-shallying, arse-on-the-fence, hiding-on-the-pitch, second-rate impersonation of leadership that I see from Keir Starmer, and I ask myself is that ****ing it?  Is that the best that the party can offer to the British people?  Because they deserve a lot better.

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Can't help but think Miliband is polling better there than he would've when leader as well. 

 

John Smith is Labour's greatest leader. A crying shame he was never PM. And yes , I know he was pro UK, but he'd have also worked hard fir an independent Scotland,  if that so happened. 

[The Mighty Thor]

6 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Slightly out of date given where it runs to but even with the turbo Tories in power I don't think we'll have seen big enough cuts. 

 

Also an inconvenient graph when you consider that one of the biggest increases in real terms benefit spending comes from that left-wing bogey man Tony Blair and New Labour. 

 

But they're aw the same eh. 

I'd love to see a graph over the same time period of tax evasion and avoidance.

 

Just for context. 

[BlueRiver]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'd love to see a graph over the same time period of tax evasion and avoidance.

 

Just for context. 

 

Go look one up. 

[Gundermann]

10 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Perhaps. Failing to see that the political landscape has changed though is more the issue than anything. 

 

Except I still disagree profoundly. Atlee would never have taken the foreign policy positions or even many of the social positions Corbyn took. 

 

There may be certain economic factors that have regressed but you go and check the NHS on offer in 1946 or how generous welfare was. 

 

My point was that Corbyn isn't really that 'radical' when compared to Labour leaders of the past, and in this I include those of the 70s and 80s and to some extent Kinnock and Smith. The problem is that the centre-ground, in England anyway, has moved so far right that even proposing public ownership of water is seen as hard-left by some. Though, as Lineker pointed out, Scottish water is and always was under public ownership.

 

Corbyn isn't even as radical as our current SNP and Greens despite the former being criticised by some for being too timid. Labour in Scotland is a strange beast - torn between old principles and loyalty to the Union - as if this was somehow Labour's raison d'etre. Some 20 to 50% of Labour voters in Scotland and some elected representatives support independence. Some are involved in the Orange Order. Some support Irish republicanism but not Scottish independence.

 

Anyway, Corbyn had his faults but by and large he stood his ground instead of just nicking the apples from his right-wing neighbour.

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'd love to see a graph over the same time period of tax evasion and avoidance.

 

Just for context. 

This.

 

Also worth mentioning that many £millions go unclaimed. Most benefits also go those who are in work. Maybe pay people more and have some socialism for all of us and not just the rich and banks?

[Mikey1874]

Not just benefits unclaimed 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

19 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

This.

 

Also worth mentioning that many £millions go unclaimed. Most benefits also go those who are in work. Maybe pay people more and have some socialism for all of us and not just the rich and banks?

 

Labour is proposing to use artificial intelligence to improve benefits uptake and solve problem of unclaimed benefit.

[BlueRiver]

24 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

My point was that Corbyn isn't really that 'radical' when compared to Labour leaders of the past, and in this I include those of the 70s and 80s and to some extent Kinnock and Smith. The problem is that the centre-ground, in England anyway, has moved so far right that even proposing public ownership of water is seen as hard-left by some. Though, as Lineker pointed out, Scottish water is and always was under public ownership.

 

Corbyn isn't even as radical as our current SNP and Greens despite the former being criticised by some for being too timid. Labour in Scotland is a strange beast - torn between old principles and loyalty to the Union - as if this was somehow Labour's raison d'etre. Some 20 to 50% of Labour voters in Scotland and some elected representatives support independence. Some are involved in the Orange Order. Some support Irish republicanism but not Scottish independence.

 

Anyway, Corbyn had his faults but by and large he stood his ground instead of just nicking the apples from his right-wing neighbour.

 

Fair enough. 

 

Most of those leaders have something in common with Corbyn though. Namely the public at large didn't want what they're selling. That's almost the heart of my point - Labour have offered left wing platforms and time and time again they lose. Unwillingness to recognise that is what will damn them to eternal opposition and if anybody truly believes that's better than a Labour government I think they're deluded. 

 

I do think you've hit the nail on the head with the struggles they have on constitutional matters though. It's played out amongst their English Brexit support too. Although they're always going to have to come down on one side of these. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by BlueRiver

[BlueRiver]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'd love to see a graph over the same time period of tax evasion and avoidance.

 

Just for context. 

 

That initial reply I sent to you doesn't come over in the spirit intended.

 

I think HMRC publish year on year figures for this kind of thing but not sure if you'll get a table or graph showing them. At least I'm not sure where to find it. 

 

I agree with you by the way. I think the UK tax code is shambolic and many taxes need a redo. I've already bored folk with my views on trusts and IHT elsewhere! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Education just isn't what it used to be.

Then again most of the teachers would be struggling to know who Attlee and Wilson were.

Teachers spending more time teaching children that they can change sex it tip toeing around pro nouns and other ludicrous things 

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'd like to see a breakdown of those figures to see what's behind them and how they're calculated.  I am aware that one major driver of the increase in welfare spending across Europe since the mid-90s has been a significant increase in pension payments, simply because the number of elderly people has risen so much.  But I've no idea how much of the change in UK benefit spending is caused by that.

 

Full disclosure: I never went to bed the night Blair's Labour won the 1997 General Election.  I stayed up watching the results and having some beers to celebrate, and I took the Friday off work - and I'm not even British.  So it's not as if I have a political animus towards Labour - quite the opposite.  But I look at the timid, vapid, fatuous, shilly-shallying, arse-on-the-fence, hiding-on-the-pitch, second-rate impersonation of leadership that I see from Keir Starmer, and I ask myself is that ****ing it?  Is that the best that the party can offer to the British people?  Because they deserve a lot better.

Yes I recall the optimism of that night when Blair won ….. oh well 

[BlueRiver]

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'd like to see a breakdown of those figures to see what's behind them and how they're calculated.  I am aware that one major driver of the increase in welfare spending across Europe since the mid-90s has been a significant increase in pension payments, simply because the number of elderly people has risen so much.  But I've no idea how much of the change in UK benefit spending is caused by that.

 

Full disclosure: I never went to bed the night Blair's Labour won the 1997 General Election.  I stayed up watching the results and having some beers to celebrate, and I took the Friday off work - and I'm not even British.  So it's not as if I have a political animus towards Labour - quite the opposite.  But I look at the timid, vapid, fatuous, shilly-shallying, arse-on-the-fence, hiding-on-the-pitch, second-rate impersonation of leadership that I see from Keir Starmer, and I ask myself is that ****ing it?  Is that the best that the party can offer to the British people?  Because they deserve a lot better.

 

Good point. It also opens up an interesting question when comparing across states that have different retirement ages. France have a high % of GDP as welfare spend but a much lower retirement age so how much does that feature. 

 

Nah I get you. I've sometimes wondered if your despair at Labour here is somewhat a reflection of being a bit scunnered by FF and FG playing what looks to be similar games in Ireland. 

[Gundermann]

4 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Labour is proposing to use artificial intelligence to improve benefits uptake and solve problem of unclaimed benefit.

 

Mmmm...

 

I'll wait and see if they can manage a PPT with Keir Hardie's name spelled correctly first.

 

[Gundermann]

4 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Fair enough. 

 

Most of those leaders have something in common with Corbyn though. Namely the public at large didn't want what they're selling. That's almost the heart of my point - Labour have offered left wing platforms and time and time again they lose. Unwillingness to recognise that is what will damn them to eternal opposition and if anybody truly believes that's better than a Labour government I think they're deluded. 

 

I do think you've hit the nail on the head with the struggles they have on constitutional matters though. It's played out amongst their English Brexit support too. Although they're always going to have to come down on one side of these. 

 

The thing is, Corbyn's policies were popular. He lost for a myriad of other reasons.

 

Quote

 

Most people also support nationalising the railways (56%) and reserving a third of the space on company boards to workers (54%).

Around half (53%) would support a wealth tax, nationalising water companies (50%) and 45% support taking gas and utility companies into public ownership.

But despite the popularity of these individual policies, Labour is still trailing the Conservatives by more than ten points in the polls. So how is Labour is performing so badly if its policies are so popular?

 

 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

 

Equally, in Scotland, we voted overwhelmingly for left-of-centre parties - SNP and Greens but more if you count Scot Lab as that - parties that say immigrants are welcome, who oppose Brexit, oppose nuclear WMDs, support higher taxation of the rich, protection of public services etc... Sure, independence is part of the equation here but I note that in recent polls while the SNP vote has gone down, support for independence has remained where it was.

 

Anyway, the GE is Starmer's to lose but after that?

[Malinga the Swinga]

14 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

The thing is, Corbyn's policies were popular. He lost for a myriad of other reasons.

 

 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

 

Equally, in Scotland, we voted overwhelmingly for left-of-centre parties - SNP and Greens but more if you count Scot Lab as that - parties that say immigrants are welcome, who oppose Brexit, oppose nuclear WMDs, support higher taxation of the rich, protection of public services etc... Sure, independence is part of the equation here but I note that in recent polls while the SNP vote has gone down, support for independence has remained where it was.

 

Anyway, the GE is Starmer's to lose but after that?

Just the one point to question. The green party did not receive overwhelming votes in Scotland. It received alow total, less than liberal party, and is only able to see it's demands met due to SNP needing it's help.

[BlueRiver]

13 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

The thing is, Corbyn's policies were popular. He lost for a myriad of other reasons.

 

 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

 

Equally, in Scotland, we voted overwhelmingly for left-of-centre parties - SNP and Greens but more if you count Scot Lab as that - parties that say immigrants are welcome, who oppose Brexit, oppose nuclear WMDs, support higher taxation of the rich, protection of public services etc... Sure, independence is part of the equation here but I note that in recent polls while the SNP vote has gone down, support for independence has remained where it was.

 

Anyway, the GE is Starmer's to lose but after that?

 

"There are many possible reasons. One is that while people like the pledges they also don’t think they are realistic: 53% of Britons brand Labour’s policy platform “not affordable”.

 

Alternatively, Britons aren’t willing to pay for them. Two thirds of Britons believe that Labour pledges would require tax rises, with a separate question finding just 34% of people support increasing the basic rate of income tax."

 

Corbyn had a credibility issue with these policies and his own personal image didn't endear himself to large segments of the electorate either. A student politician that had attached himself to so many fringe causes he rendered himself unelectable even against the most incompetent Tory administration you could imagine. John McDonnell pulling stuff out his backside like billions for WASPI women days before the election hardly helped with credibility either. 

 

A better politician could perhaps get elected on his platform but we won't know as he insisted on leading Labour into the 2019 election bloodbath.

 

There's only two parties in Scotland that oppose WMDs and one of them is split on the issue. The other is chock full of student politicians. 

 

 

[Gundermann]

Just now, BlueRiver said:

 

"There are many possible reasons. One is that while people like the pledges they also don’t think they are realistic: 53% of Britons brand Labour’s policy platform “not affordable”.

 

Alternatively, Britons aren’t willing to pay for them. Two thirds of Britons believe that Labour pledges would require tax rises, with a separate question finding just 34% of people support increasing the basic rate of income tax."

 

Corbyn had a credibility issue with these policies and his own personal image didn't endear himself to large segments of the electorate either. A student politician that had attached himself to so many fringe causes he rendered himself unelectable even against the most incompetent Tory administration you could imagine. John McDonnell pulling stuff out his backside like billions for WASPI women days before the election hardly helped with credibility either. 

 

A better politician could perhaps get elected on his platform but we won't know as he insisted on leading Labour into the 2019 election bloodbath.

 

There's only two parties in Scotland that oppose WMDs and one of them is split on the issue. The other is chock full of student politicians. 

 

 

 

Nail on head there.

 

I don't think he was a great leader but I could imagine sitting down with him for a dram or two and debating the issues of the day.