Is there anything in politics more shit than the Labour Party?

[i wish jj was my dad]

34 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

No argument from me.

I don’t understand why benefits are used to pay people working for large profitable companies .

it stinks.

living wage should be mandatory

there should be proper legislation that after a year all zero hour and self employed contracts should be made permanent 

Good stuff.  It would be nice if that context was recognised when folk rail against our benefits culture.   I remember the furore when Labour introduced a minimum wage and at the time I was getting a lot less than that.  Far from crashing the economy it was a stimulant.   Providing greater security and incentives for work will do the same.

[Gundermann]

48 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

No argument from me.

I don’t understand why benefits are used to pay people working for large profitable companies .

it stinks.

living wage should be mandatory

there should be proper legislation that after a year all zero hour and self employed contracts should be made permanent 

 

Indeed. Companies that very often get paid incentives/ bribes to relocate to an area to create jobs and then pay little in tax. It's just an inefficient version of the old state socialism of the east that would pay the populace to create shoe mountains.

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Indeed. Companies that very often get paid incentives/ bribes to relocate to an area to create jobs and then pay little in tax. It's just an inefficient version of the old state socialism of the east that would pay the populace to create shoe mountains.

Sounds like you're describing the 'Freeport' scam the Tories are pushing at the moment.

[Gundermann]

24 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Sounds like you're describing the 'Freeport' scam the Tories are pushing at the moment.

 

Could be. Scot Gov also doing it here though.

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Could be. Scot Gov also doing it here though.

Joint effort with the UK gov dept of levelling up. 

[Cranston]

44 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Good stuff.  It would be nice if that context was recognised when folk rail against our benefits culture.   I remember the furore when Labour introduced a minimum wage and at the time I was getting a lot less than that.  Far from crashing the economy it was a stimulant.   Providing greater security and incentives for work will do the same.

The economy has more or less crashed though. High Streets up and down the UK are full of charity shops, or pound land type alternatives, with vacant shop fronts increasing ever more. Pubs have shut down at an alarming rate, house prices far outwith the ordinary persons affordability. Banks have more or less deserted towns and villages. My gloomy vision is one of the worst ever downturns for economies all over the world. The worst is yet to come, and the West will be very hard hit indeed. Batten down the hatches people, as the green revolution hammers the nail into what once were vibrant communities. Labour will solve nothing either, as they have less than zero to offer.

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, Cranston said:

The economy has more or less crashed though. High Streets up and down the UK are full of charity shops, or pound land type alternatives, with vacant shop fronts increasing ever more. Pubs have shut down at an alarming rate, house prices far outwith the ordinary persons affordability. Banks have more or less deserted towns and villages. My gloomy vision is one of the worst ever downturns for economies all over the world. The worst is yet to come, and the West will be very hard hit indeed. Batten down the hatches people, as the green revolution hammers the nail into what once were vibrant communities. Labour will solve nothing either, as they have less than zero to offer.

 

Imo it's the move to online shopping and services that has done the most damage. We've also learned to stay at home and communicate with the rest of the world digitally in our spare time rather than venture out and communicate with real humans (ironic, admittedly, that I make that comment here). Covid hurried all that along, big-style. Solutions on a postcard, please.

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, Cranston said:

The economy has more or less crashed though. High Streets up and down the UK are full of charity shops, or pound land type alternatives, with vacant shop fronts increasing ever more. Pubs have shut down at an alarming rate, house prices far outwith the ordinary persons affordability. Banks have more or less deserted towns and villages. My gloomy vision is one of the worst ever downturns for economies all over the world. The worst is yet to come, and the West will be very hard hit indeed. Batten down the hatches people, as the green revolution hammers the nail into what once were vibrant communities. Labour will solve nothing either, as they have less than zero to offer.

The green revolution 😂

 

Aye mate the greens have driven austerity and economic policy this last 14 years. 

 

Your 'gloomy vision' could be classed as swivel eyed at best. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

9 hours ago, Cranston said:

The economy has more or less crashed though. High Streets up and down the UK are full of charity shops, or pound land type alternatives, with vacant shop fronts increasing ever more. Pubs have shut down at an alarming rate, house prices far outwith the ordinary persons affordability. Banks have more or less deserted towns and villages. My gloomy vision is one of the worst ever downturns for economies all over the world. The worst is yet to come, and the West will be very hard hit indeed. Batten down the hatches people, as the green revolution hammers the nail into what once were vibrant communities. Labour will solve nothing either, as they have less than zero to offer.

Deregulation of financial services and enabling a culture of Masters of the Universe crashed our economy. That was exacerbated by an ideology that rather than address the problem saw it as an opportunity to cut public spending on investment and services which made us less prepared to respond and more vulnerable to the effects of the pandemic. It also made us more vulnerable to the populist movement that brought us brexit. 

We are being 'very hard hit indeed' and it will get a lot worse before it gets better but it's not the fault of any 'green revolution'.  Ironically that is one of the few opportunities we have to dig ourselves out of the hole we have got ourselves into if we actually invest in the infrastructure and technology needed. That's the challenge for Labour. 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

9 hours ago, Cranston said:

The economy has more or less crashed though. High Streets up and down the UK are full of charity shops, or pound land type alternatives, with vacant shop fronts increasing ever more. Pubs have shut down at an alarming rate, house prices far outwith the ordinary persons affordability. Banks have more or less deserted towns and villages. My gloomy vision is one of the worst ever downturns for economies all over the world. The worst is yet to come, and the West will be very hard hit indeed. Batten down the hatches people, as the green revolution hammers the nail into what once were vibrant communities. Labour will solve nothing either, as they have less than zero to offer.

The only time there has been any growth in the economy is when Labour are in power. Don't believe the shite about Tories being go9d for tge economy. We're living in the times of Tory capitalst utopia.

[il Duce McTarkin]

39 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Deregulation of financial services and enabling a culture of Masters of the Universe crashed our economy. That was exacerbated by an ideology that rather than address the problem saw it as an opportunity to cut public spending on investment and services which made us less prepared to respond and more vulnerable to the effects of the pandemic. It also made us more vulnerable to the populist movement that brought us brexit. 

We are being 'very hard hit indeed' and it will get a lot worse before it gets better but it's not the fault of any 'green revolution'.  Ironically that is one of the few opportunities we have to dig ourselves out of the hole we have got ourselves into if we actually invest in the infrastructure and technology needed. That's the challenge for Labour. 

 

Good post.

[Japan Jambo]

12 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

No argument from me.

I don’t understand why benefits are used to pay people working for large profitable companies .

it stinks.

living wage should be mandatory

there should be proper legislation that after a year all zero hour and self employed contracts should be made permanent 

 

Absolutely. 

[Gundermann]

Am hearing another Labour member has been suspended for racist activity online. Wilma Brown in Cowedenbeath apparently.

 

Two in a week. They must be beeling they've got a Muslim leader.

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-labour-suspends-wilma-brown-32554990

Edited April 10 by Gundermann

[Spellczech]

19 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

Indeed. Companies that very often get paid incentives/ bribes to relocate to an area to create jobs and then pay little in tax. It's just an inefficient version of the old state socialism of the east that would pay the populace to create shoe mountains.

I remember early in my career I reviewed the grant that Motorola had received for their Bathgate factory at the Pyramids. They hadn't met the employment requirements, or the capital spend requirement yet still managed to get the approval for the next tranche of free money from Scottish Enterprise. A year later I was working down south and I read there was a huge hoo-ha because they'd closed the profitable Scottish site and moved production to Germany as the they could retain the loss-relief on that site! I was like "hmmn I wonder if the Scottish Government will be poring over my grant review work!Haha I don't think anything ever came of it - no idea why they approved the payment...

[Cranston]

12 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

The only time there has been any growth in the economy is when Labour are in power. Don't believe the shite about Tories being go9d for tge economy. We're living in the times of Tory capitalst utopia.

👍

 

I just want a Labour party that detaches itself from the Greens, and puts the oomph back into GB.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, Cranston said:

👍

 

I just want a Labour party that detaches itself from the Greens, and puts the oomph back into GB.

👍

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Cranston said:

👍

 

I just want a Labour party that detaches itself from the Greens, and puts the oomph back into GB.

Out of interest, what is the oomph was the last time we had it? 

[redjambo]

33 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Out of interest, what is the oomph was the last time we had it? 

 

I suspect he's referring to this period in our history.

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I suspect he's referring to this period in our history.

 

Rule Britannia ! 😎

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Out of interest, what is the oomph was the last time we had it? 

 

Perhaps he meant "mph" and autocorrect edited it.

[Jim_Duncan]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

I suspect he's referring to this period in our history.

 

Ah, the good days. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

I suspect he's referring to this period in our history.

 

I thought brexit was bringing those days back? 

[ehcaley]

On 08/04/2024 at 16:28, Gundermann said:

 

Recent polls show SNP set to take 41 seats in Scotland. Quite a healthy majority, no?

 

Am not SNP but it's interesting that the party is fascist, communist and now centralist Blairite. All in one? Incredible work.

 

Yon Harris is an English journo btw and article deals chiefly with the English battleground.

Recent polls eh!Enjoy the latest You Gov Scottish polls with your cornflakes ,have a nice day😉

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 hours ago, Cranston said:

👍

 

I just want a Labour party that detaches itself from the Greens, and puts the oomph back into GB.

The red Tories can’t be any worse.

Cannae wait.

[manaliveits105]

Independence vote

The story is static when it comes to Scottish independence. Currently 53% of Scots say they would vote No in a repeat of the 2014 referendum, compared to 47% who would vote Yes – this is the same split as it was the last time we asked in September 2023.
 

Ach well never mind 

[JudyJudyJudy]

32 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Independence vote

The story is static when it comes to Scottish independence. Currently 53% of Scots say they would vote No in a repeat of the 2014 referendum, compared to 47% who would vote Yes – this is the same split as it was the last time we asked in September 2023.
 

Ach well never mind 

Delightful 

[Gundermann]

2 hours ago, ehcaley said:

Recent polls eh!Enjoy the latest You Gov Scottish polls with your cornflakes ,have a nice day😉

 

You Gov - owned by Tories - poll of 2k versus a massive poll of some 16k?

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Independence vote

The story is static when it comes to Scottish independence. Currently 53% of Scots say they would vote No in a repeat of the 2014 referendum, compared to 47% who would vote Yes – this is the same split as it was the last time we asked in September 2023.
 

Ach well never mind 

So it's not changed as opposed to the wind and pish of the last few days which had it down to virtually zero?

 

Aye?

 

 

[Cranston]

7 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

You Gov - owned by Tories - poll of 2k versus a massive poll of some 16k?

Owned by Tories. 

 

Taxpayers Alliance - Owned by Tories.

 

If we ever did get independence, and the EU was less generous to Scotland than the UK - Owned by Tories.

 

[Gundermann]

13 hours ago, Cranston said:

Owned by Tories. 

 

Taxpayers Alliance - Owned by Tories.

 

If we ever did get independence, and the EU was less generous to Scotland than the UK - Owned by Tories.

 

 

[Cranston]

49 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

You know very well what I was referring to, humorously, but nether the less very true. That, the independence movement blames everyone but themselves, especially the tories and westminster for everything. 

 

Its a massive turnoff for genuine voters looking for choice, when all they ever get is failed by the current snp greens coalition, and the whining and blame game by the independence  movement and its supporters.

 

That strategy has very probably set back the independence cause by decades. Your posting is a perfect example of always blaming someone else for the snp greens disastrous governance. 

 

Always someone else's fault innit?

 

That's WTF I was on about, as if you didn't know. But thanks for affording me the opportunity to develop it a bit more.

 

 

 

[Gundermann]

2 minutes ago, Cranston said:

You know very well what I was referring to, humorously, but nether the less very true. That, the independence movement blames everyone but themselves, especially the tories and westminster for everything. 

 

Its a massive turnoff for genuine voters looking for choice, when all they ever get is failed by the current snp greens coalition, and the whining and blame game by the independence  movement and its supporters.

 

That strategy has very probably set back the independence cause by decades. Your posting is a perfect example of always blaming someone else for the snp greens disastrous governance. 

 

Always someone else's fault innit?

 

That's WTF I was on about, as if you didn't know. But thanks for affording me the opportunity to develop it a bit more.

 

 

 

 

We get the SNP/ Greens because that's what we vote for. Am not huge fans of either's performance but they're still a mile better than the London-based buttcheeks, IMO. And sure, as long as we're still ultimately dependent on Westminster, the buck stops there.

[Japan Jambo]

On 11/04/2024 at 08:48, manaliveits105 said:

Independence vote

The story is static when it comes to Scottish independence. Currently 53% of Scots say they would vote No in a repeat of the 2014 referendum, compared to 47% who would vote Yes – this is the same split as it was the last time we asked in September 2023.
 

Ach well never mind 

 

Irrelevant, the once in a generation match referendum was held and the result is now history. Way past time to move on and make the best of the situation. Constantly playing the victim card isn't constructive.

[Cairneyhill Jambo]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Irrelevant, the once in a generation match referendum was held and the result is now history. Way past time to move on and make the best of the situation. Constantly playing the victim card isn't constructive.

 

The Smith Commission Report, which was published after the 2014 referendum, agreed that "nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose." which kinda blows your once in a generation argument out the water.

[Tommy Brown]

On 10/04/2024 at 01:27, redjambo said:

 

Imo it's the move to online shopping and services that has done the most damage. We've also learned to stay at home and communicate with the rest of the world digitally in our spare time rather than venture out and communicate with real humans (ironic, admittedly, that I make that comment here). Covid hurried all that along, big-style. Solutions on a postcard, please.

Postcard?

Have you seen the price of stamps now?

[XB52]

6 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Irrelevant, the once in a generation match referendum was held and the result is now history. Way past time to move on and make the best of the situation. Constantly playing the victim card isn't constructive.

So we should let the tories stay in power for ever as they won the last election and it's now history?

I'm presuming you're just trying to be funny and you don't honestly believe that 50% of the population should be ignored for ever more. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 hours ago, Cairneyhill Jambo said:

 

The Smith Commission Report, which was published after the 2014 referendum, agreed that "nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose." which kinda blows your once in a generation argument out the water.

Excellent post.

[XB52]

5 hours ago, Cairneyhill Jambo said:

 

The Smith Commission Report, which was published after the 2014 referendum, agreed that "nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose." which kinda blows your once in a generation argument out the water.

It seems to be their main argument now. And it's weird how some of the most vocal proponents of Scotland not having a voice don't live in Scotland. 

[Cranston]

7 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

We get the SNP/ Greens because that's what we vote for. Am not huge fans of either's performance but they're still a mile better than the London-based buttcheeks, IMO. And sure, as long as we're still ultimately dependent on Westminster, the buck stops there.

Decent reply.

 

That's the heart of the problem that the independence movement has. We in Scotland don't possess politicians who could make a success of an independent Scotland. The Snp Greens coalition is an abomination. They've demonstrated vividly that an independent Scotland would be one of abject poverty and failure. 

 

If the Snp Greens coalition had not been the shit show that it has been, then Scotland would be chomping at the bit to leave the UK. Devolution has clearly shown that Scotland cannot be trusted to go its own way for now at least.

 

The Snp Greens strategy has been a spectacular calamity. People are deserting it in their hundreds of thousands, and I wouldn't be surprised if Labour take back a swathe of seats at the next elections. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

16 minutes ago, XB52 said:

It seems to be their main argument now. And it's weird how some of the most vocal proponents of Scotland not having a voice don't live in Scotland. 

What I find laughable is asking actors, celebrities etc who aren’t even Scottish and live In England to give their opinion on whether Scotland should be Independent.

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

So we should let the tories stay in power for ever as they won the last election and it's now history?

I'm presuming you're just trying to be funny and you don't honestly believe that 50% of the population should be ignored for ever more. 

 

No, the Tories will get the shellacking they deserve at the next scheduled election. They'll then have an opportunity 5 years later to run again, that's how elections work.

 

With regard to the second point the only 50% you want to ignore is the half that say no! 🤷‍♂️ 

 

For what it's worth though if there is a consistently overwhelming mandate for independence then I'd see a point to the discussion about a second referendum, there isn't though so for now it's a settled matter and folks should be making the best of it that they can just like the Brexit shit show.

 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Cranston said:

Decent reply.

 

That's the heart of the problem that the independence movement has. We in Scotland don't possess politicians who could make a success of an independent Scotland. The Snp Greens coalition is an abomination. They've demonstrated vividly that an independent Scotland would be one of abject poverty and failure. 

 

Don't you think that with independence, folk would then split off and vote for parties that they actually want to run the country?

In other words they see the SNP/greens as the vehicle to independence, after that Tory/labour/liberal equivalent in an independent Scotland?

1 hour ago, Cranston said:

 

If the Snp Greens coalition had not been the shit show that it has been, then Scotland would be chomping at the bit to leave the UK. Devolution has clearly shown that Scotland cannot be trusted to go its own way for now at least.

 

Not sure you can blame devolution tbh. It's the people that elect the government. SNP recent hegemony due to a desire for independence despite SNP shitting the bed? Equally, why haven't the pro devolution unionist parties tried to do something to sway the electorate so they stopped voting SNP? TBF, Labour may just be onto something now, but probably a result of both Holyrood and Westminster's apathy to each other. Grievance is often levied against the SNP, rightly sometimes, but have to say that the Tory governments at Westminster do nothing other than stoke it.

1 hour ago, Cranston said:

 

The Snp Greens strategy has been a spectacular calamity. People are deserting it in their hundreds of thousands, and I wouldn't be surprised if Labour take back a swathe of seats at the next elections. 

Don't disagree.

[XB52]

10 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

No, the Tories will get the shellacking they deserve at the next scheduled election. They'll then have an opportunity 5 years later to run again, that's how elections work.

 

With regard to the second point the only 50% you want to ignore is the half that say no! 🤷‍♂️ 

 

For what it's worth though if there is a consistently overwhelming mandate for independence then I'd see a point to the discussion about a second referendum, there isn't though so for now it's a settled matter and folks should be making the best of it that they can just like the Brexit shit show.

 

The 50% no voters would get the chance to say no again so hardly being ignored. Not really on topic though and I try and stay clear of the independence thread so I'll leave this thread too

[Cranston]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Don't you think that with independence, folk would then split off and vote for parties that they actually want to run the country?

In other words they see the SNP/greens as the vehicle to independence, after that Tory/labour/liberal equivalent in an independent Scotland?

 

Not sure you can blame devolution tbh. It's the people that elect the government. SNP recent hegemony due to a desire for independence despite SNP shitting the bed? Equally, why haven't the pro devolution unionist parties tried to do something to sway the electorate so they stopped voting SNP? TBF, Labour may just be onto something now, but probably a result of both Holyrood and Westminster's apathy to each other. Grievance is often levied against the SNP, rightly sometimes, but have to say that the Tory governments at Westminster do nothing other than stoke it.

Don't disagree.

I've heard this argument, regarding different parties would emerge after independence, Tory, Labour, Liberal Democrat etc. I find it just plain weird, that anyone would think any of them would want to take on an independent Scotland, after Scotland had separated from the UK.

 

If the Snp Green coalition ever do lead Scotland to independence, the politicians that would follow on would be made from the same mould no? Yes? 

 

It could get even worse than the Snp Green coalition. We just don't have the back bone to vote for politicians that would take a different course from the Snp Greens. 

 

Plain weird to expect an extreme change of direction if the Snp Greens with their anti car, anti oil, anti business, anti just about everything, ever lead to independence. 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Cranston said:

I've heard this argument, regarding different parties would emerge after independence, Tory, Labour, Liberal Democrat etc. I find it just plain weird, that anyone would think any of them would want to take on an independent Scotland, after Scotland had separated from the UK.

 

If the Snp Green coalition ever do lead Scotland to independence, the politicians that would follow on would be made from the same mould no? Yes? 

 

It could get even worse than the Snp Green coalition. We just don't have the back bone to vote for politicians that would take a different course from the Snp Greens. 

 

Plain weird to expect an extreme change of direction if the Snp Greens with their anti car, anti oil, anti business, anti just about everything, ever lead to independence. 

 

So political life would just end? I doubt it tbh.

Labour used to dominate Scotland, but they went the way of all flesh.

Also, you seem to fall into the train of thought that conflates wanting independence to full blown support of the SNP. I guess that within the SNP itself there is a wide political spectrum, indeed it was salmond that navigated them away from being seen as tartan Tories, to a more social democratic party.

 

Personally, if Scotland did gain independence I'd want fresh elections. New parliament, new start. Not to mention a written constitution, and I'd also like a second chamber.

 

So if indy did happen, a constitutional convention should be held a la the devolution era. 

[Cranston]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

So political life would just end? I doubt it tbh.

Labour used to dominate Scotland, but they went the way of all flesh.

Also, you seem to fall into the train of thought that conflates wanting independence to full blown support of the SNP. I guess that within the SNP itself there is a wide political spectrum, indeed it was salmond that navigated them away from being seen as tartan Tories, to a more social democratic party.

 

Personally, if Scotland did gain independence I'd want fresh elections. New parliament, new start. Not to mention a written constitution, and I'd also like a second chamber.

 

So if indy did happen, a constitutional convention should be held a la the devolution era. 

No, I don't fall into conflation of snp and independence movement. They may well be a vehicle for separatists to blow apart the UK, I get that. However, what you suggest might happen afterwards, is pure comfort blanket. It could and probably would get even worse than the Snp Greens coalition. We'd have a president who like Humza, could cause all sorts of crises against the people of Scotland. 

 

If however, the Snp Greens had shown us a successful devolution, one of real potential and prosperity, we'd be on our way, but independence looks very grim indeed given the mess created by devolution. 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Cranston said:

No, I don't fall into conflation of snp and independence movement. They may well be a vehicle for separatists to blow apart the UK, I get that. However, what you suggest might happen afterwards, is pure comfort blanket. It could and probably would get even worse than the Snp Greens coalition. We'd have a president who like Humza, could cause all sorts of crises against the people of Scotland. 

 

If however, the Snp Greens had shown us a successful devolution, one of real potential and prosperity, we'd be on our way, but independence looks very grim indeed given the mess created by devolution. 

Mess created by the govt, not devolution IMO 

[Cranston]

Just now, Boris said:

Mess created by the govt, not devolution IMO 

At least you've tried to put across a civilised set of points.

 

👍

[edijambo]

What people forget when saying current polls are the same as the independence result in 2014 is that "yes" was much lower at the beginning of that campaign so is likely to rise again

[ehcaley]

9 minutes ago, edijambo said:

What people forget when saying current polls are the same as the independence result in 2014 is that "yes" was much lower at the beginning of that campaign so is likely to rise again

Are you expecting a referendum any time soon?We were told one would happen last October still waiting,maybe you have an inside line!