Russia Invades Ukraine

[The Real Maroonblood]

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Don't tease.

 

image Putin attacked now.

[The Mighty Thor]

Biden taking the heat out of things by sending 3,000 troops to Eastern Europe and Germany 😂

 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Biden taking the heat out of things by sending 3,000 troops to Eastern Europe and Germany 😂

 

 

They're already there (at least , in part).

I was talking to a Romanian acquaintance last week who told me it's been going on for weeks*. All kinds of people/hardware being shipped. 

 

*In Romania.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by NANOJAMBO

[Lone Striker]

21 hours ago, ri Alban said:

News conference now. 

BBC reporter should stick to Ukraine/Russia crisis and leave Boris' other shite til he gets home.

Indeed - and as if by magic, he landed back in London a few hours later.   Apart from being able to escape  Partygate for a few hours and look like a statesman (albeit a dishevelled and bumbling one), was there any real reason for him to go there ?  Apparently he didn't get to speak to Putin on the phone anyway.

 

As an aside, isn't it amazing how these self-obsessed & power-mad leaders of countries like UK, US, China & Russia all seem to be mirror images of each other.  All driven by the need to stay in power for as long as possible, and the need to be remembered by history for having initiated a huge disruptive event like a land grab or war or Brexit.

 

 

[milky_26]

22 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Maybe Johnson will stay there.

Show him pictures of Ukrainian women and his best chat up lines will be dusted off

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Indeed - and as if by magic, he landed back in London a few hours later.   Apart from being able to escape  Partygate for a few hours and look like a statesman (albeit a dishevelled and bumbling one), was there any real reason for him to go there ?  Apparently he didn't get to speak to Putin on the phone anyway.

 

As an aside, isn't it amazing how these self-obsessed & power-mad leaders of countries like UK, US, China & Russia all seem to be mirror images of each other.  All driven by the need to stay in power for as long as possible, and the need to be remembered by history for having initiated a huge disruptive event like a land grab or war or Brexit.

 

 

The UK and USA will never be able to accuse Russia and China as corrupt ever again.

[Greenbank2]

On 26/01/2022 at 10:56, coconut doug said:

 

  An excellent perspective on where we are at the moment (your comment, not the book). Much of the west (UK and US in particular) are struggling to reach any moral high ground here. I think the plan is to goad Ukraine into provoking Russia then the Russians can be further demonised if they react. Ukraine, same as South Vietnam, South Korea, the mujaheddin in Afghanistan and Isis in the Middle East would be fighting a proxy war. Funded armed and trained by the west but at arms length. It is the Ukrainians who will suffer most. I think many realise this. They have seen what the west and their friendly governments have done in Yemen, Serbia, Libya, Iraq and other places. They are not going all-in with Johnson, Biden, Clinton and Trump.

 

I think Russia and China have other plans which involves economic expansion and war would not be helpful in pursuing that goal. It would though slow their expansion down which is why imo the west are promoting this war. 

 

I have read Marshall's book and i thought it dated, one - sided and totally lacking in perspective. This is more up to date, much more factual and evidential about what is currently happening and what will happen in the very near future..

 

Very good book and perspective which I have read. Good post.

 

So here we are more than 2 weeks after my OP and still no invasion. (no surprise!) And the new German Chancellor visiting Washington and it looks like he's going to tell Biden where to get off. And Macron visiting Ukraine and looking to claim credit for de-escalating the situation. Meanwhile back in (the increasingly irrelevant) downing street............

[The Mighty Thor]

20 minutes ago, Greenbank2 said:

Meanwhile back in (the increasingly irrelevant) downing street............

it's reported our increasingly lame duck PM has been singing 'I will survive' to his new PR lacky.

 

Statesman like. 

[SectionDJambo]

3 hours ago, Greenbank2 said:

Very good book and perspective which I have read. Good post.

 

So here we are more than 2 weeks after my OP and still no invasion. (no surprise!) And the new German Chancellor visiting Washington and it looks like he's going to tell Biden where to get off. And Macron visiting Ukraine and looking to claim credit for de-escalating the situation. Meanwhile back in (the increasingly irrelevant) downing street............

Wouldn't it be an absolute hoot if Macron managed to calm everyone down and persuade Putin to stand down. This being after Johnson has been loudly claiming to be the leader of the western powers response to the crisis, and had his gang repeating the claim, with puffed out chests.

I sincerely hope that some statesman can cool things down, but nobody sensible will believe a word Johnson says, so it won't be him.

[coconut doug]

5 hours ago, Greenbank2 said:

Very good book and perspective which I have read. Good post.

 

So here we are more than 2 weeks after my OP and still no invasion. (no surprise!) And the new German Chancellor visiting Washington and it looks like he's going to tell Biden where to get off. And Macron visiting Ukraine and looking to claim credit for de-escalating the situation. Meanwhile back in (the increasingly irrelevant) downing street............

 

Russia and Putin can't win here. Should there be no war then the strong arm tactics and hard diplomacy of Nato etc is the reason. The fact that they have been telling us an invasion is imminent for at least 5 years and that Putin has repeatedly said he has no intention of invading would be deemed irrelevant as Nato would pat itself on the back for avoiding another war by showing the Russian bear who really is the boss.

 

 Simultaneously Russia and China continue to forge alliances and grow trade. https://www.globalconstructionreview.com/argentina-to-join-belt-and-road-in-hopes-for-chinese-billions/ Is it simply the case that US wants a war to stop the advance of the belt and road initiative and to make money for weapons manufacturers.? Encouraging Ukrainian fascists to ethnically cleanse the Donbass and provoke a reaction from Russia might be the best way to do it after failures in the middle east.

[Jeffros Furios]

The Russian Bot back at work in his St Petersburg basement. 

[FWJ]

I was listening to the news tonight about Macron trying to de-escalate things and was this just because elections are coming up in France and how would it look if he thought he’d sorted it but Russia just invaded anyway?

 

Isn’t that just the kind of destabilising thing that Putin would do?  Macron is (since Merkel is gone and we have a clown in no 10) now the ‘leader’ of Europe.  Having LePen or some other eurosceptic maniac loose cannon in charge would suit Putin down the ground.

Edited February 7, 2022 by FWJ

[Doctor FinnBarr]

On 24/01/2022 at 19:15, Cruyff said:

If there is a war, hopefully it is by conventional means. 

 

Unfortunately I'm young enough to get conscripted. The rest of you lot will be Dad's army.

 

I've actually dug a pit in my back garden filled with poison dipped bamboo tips to teach them a lesson, think the Russians might skirt past Blackburn anyhow.

Maybe our resident drug dealer or his minions will fall in instead.

Edited February 8, 2022 by FinnBarr Saunders

[John Gentleman]

On 03/02/2022 at 01:49, Lone Striker said:

As an aside, isn't it amazing how these self-obsessed & power-mad leaders of countries like UK, US, China & Russia all seem to be mirror images of each other.  All driven by the need to stay in power for as long as possible, and the need to be remembered by history for having initiated a huge disruptive event like a land grab or war or Brexit.

 

 

.....due to their inability to sit quietly in a room, alone. (Blaise Pascal)

[ri Alban]

NATO should stick 100,000 troops on the  Russian border closest to Moscow. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by ri Alban

[Lone Striker]

Steve Rosenberg on the BBC came up with an interesting angle on what Putin's game might be.   After years of Western world leaders going out their way not to have anything to do with him -  even avoiding contact at G7 meetings due to imprisoning his critics and the poisonings which of course he had nothing to do with 😉 - he wants to show the world that he's currently the most important leader on the planet.   Hence his build-up of forces at the Ukraine border while at the same time denying he will invade.  And cosying up to Xi.     The West gets concerned, and debates start about what to do.

 

Apparently there's now a queue of European leaders wanting to follow Macron and have a meeting with Putin - so in that respect, it looks like the strategy is working.   Its all about him looking powerful, and gaining the respect of the West - so that the Russian people will gladly (ahem) "re-elect" him.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Lone Striker

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Steve Rosenberg on the BBC came up with an interesting angle on what Putin's game might be.   After years of Western world leaders going out their way not to have anything to do with him -  even avoiding contact at G7 meetings due to the poisonings which of course he had nothing to do with 😉 - he wants to show the world that he's currently the most important leader on the planet.   Hence his build-up of forces at the Ukraine border while at the same time denying he will invade.  And cosying up to Xi.     The West gets concerned, and debates start about what to do.

 

Apparently there's now a queue of European leaders wanting to follow Macron and have a meeting with Putin - so in that respect, it looks like the strategy is working.   Its all about him looking powerful, and gaining the respect of the West - so that the Russian people will gladly (ahem) "re-elect" him.

 

 

 

I was in the process of writing something similar, of why are the West playing Putin's game, he wants to be relevant & to look the hard man and the West have fallen for it.

 

IMO we should have just issued a statement back in December, telling Putin that if he invades Ukraine then a whole world of shit is coming his way and it'll be him who has to answer to the Russian people.

 

And that would have been all, no phone calls, no meetings, no running off to Moscow to plead with him.

If there is one thing which scares the shit out of Putin it's his own people turning against him and ousting him, because he knows he'll be dangling from the end of a rope, if there's anything left of him to hang after the Russian people gets their hands on him.

[Greenbank2]

5 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Steve Rosenberg on the BBC came up with an interesting angle on what Putin's game might be.   After years of Western world leaders going out their way not to have anything to do with him -  even avoiding contact at G7 meetings due to imprisoning his critics and the poisonings which of course he had nothing to do with 😉 - he wants to show the world that he's currently the most important leader on the planet.   Hence his build-up of forces at the Ukraine border while at the same time denying he will invade.  And cosying up to Xi.     The West gets concerned, and debates start about what to do.

 

Apparently there's now a queue of European leaders wanting to follow Macron and have a meeting with Putin - so in that respect, it looks like the strategy is working.   Its all about him looking powerful, and gaining the respect of the West - so that the Russian people will gladly (ahem) "re-elect" him.

 

 

Your right. The fundamental thing that is part of the Russian psych is STRENGTH. Since the USSR lost the cold war, the west - and in particular the USA has done everything they can to threaten and provoke Russia. Initially, they cosy'd up to him, but when they cooled, he has reacted in exactly the way you would expect when poking a bear. Russia is an important country with enormous natural resources and wealth. I think western leaders know and understand this, but after 25 years of unchallenged military and economic supremacy after the end of the cold war, and with the defeat of ISIS, they need a new enemy. They always need an enemy to instill a fear into their population that their "freedom" is at risk. Ref some of the comments on this thread bout proxy wars - absolutely correct. We have the same in the UK, but it's driven by the Bullingdon boys and their establishment sponsors keeping the wealth they have accumulated over hundreds of years. The real threat to the "one right way" of life promoted by western establishment is Xi and China. Having worked there over a 15 year period, all I can say is that they really do not care what the west thinks. The view of China is that they were the dominant culture on the planet for thousand of years. The industrial revolution was a hiccup that happened in the wrong place. They're now simply addressing that situation and getting back to normal service. And you know what, they're doing it. And we are fed Joseph Goebbels level propaganda on what is going in.

[Footballfirst]

Lis Truss certainly hasn't enamoured her Russian hosts.

 

Translation from https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5207486?tg

 

The British Foreign Secretary told the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry about the need to withdraw Russian armed forces from the Ukrainian border. Sergei Lavrov replied that the military is on the territory of his country. Liz Truss repeated that they should be withdrawn. To this, the Russian minister again objected that the military is not violating anything, since they have the right to conduct any maneuvers on the territory of the Russian Federation.

After that, he himself addressed a question to his British colleague: “Do you recognize the sovereignty of Russia over the Rostov and Voronezh regions?”

“Great Britain will never recognize Russian sovereignty over these regions,” the Foreign Minister replied after a short pause.

British Ambassador to the Russian Federation Deborah Bonnert had to intervene in the situation, who delicately explained to Mrs. Truss that we were really talking about Russian regions.

[Taffin]

6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Lis Truss certainly hasn't enamoured her Russian hosts.

 

Translation from https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5207486?tg

 

The British Foreign Secretary told the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry about the need to withdraw Russian armed forces from the Ukrainian border. Sergei Lavrov replied that the military is on the territory of his country. Liz Truss repeated that they should be withdrawn. To this, the Russian minister again objected that the military is not violating anything, since they have the right to conduct any maneuvers on the territory of the Russian Federation.

After that, he himself addressed a question to his British colleague: “Do you recognize the sovereignty of Russia over the Rostov and Voronezh regions?”

“Great Britain will never recognize Russian sovereignty over these regions,” the Foreign Minister replied after a short pause.

British Ambassador to the Russian Federation Deborah Bonnert had to intervene in the situation, who delicately explained to Mrs. Truss that we were really talking about Russian regions.

 

It's genuinely frighting that such imbeciles are running this country. 

[PortyBeach]

I think we need to also remember that whatever other motives are involved, Putin has a point about “spheres of influence”.

The U.S. understands this very well as we’ve seen with its destabilisation policies toward leftist governments in the Americas such as Chile and Nicaragua and opposition to Cuba’s alignment with the old Soviet Union. 
Why, they even invaded Grenada much to Thatcher’s annoyance.

How would the U.S. have reacted to Mexico joining the Warsaw Pact?

Give Ukraine security guarantees on the quiet but keep her out of NATO. If Putin has any sense he’ll seize that opportunity to walk away with a face-saving solution.

[il Duce McTarkin]

11 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It's genuinely frighting that such imbeciles are running this country. 

 

Russians will be too busy ending themselves laughing to invade anywhere.

 

Top work Ms Truss.

[Cade]

Mr Lavrov said speaking with Ms Truss was like a mute person talking to a deaf person.
He added: “We appear to be listening but we’re not hearing anything.”

Mr Lavrov also said:
“They say Russia’s waiting for the ground to freeze as hard as rock so our tanks can enter Ukraine. That was the ground we found with our British colleagues today - facts bounced right off of it.”

 

Smackdown.

The UK government is chock full of imbeciles and intellectual infants.

[NANOJAMBO]

This is how bad it is ....

 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

When I said it was "bad", well, there's this ...

 

@maxseddon

 

Things behind the scenes were even worse, according to

@ElenaChernenko

. Lavrov said, "Do you recognize Russia's sovereignty over Rostov and Voronezh oblasts?" Truss said the UK would "never" do so – before the ambassador told her they're not in Ukraine

[ri Alban]

Scots better not die for someone else's right to sovereignty and independence. 

 

 

Oh and did LT sell Russia any cheese. We export cheese, do we not .

Edited February 11, 2022 by ri Alban

[The Mighty Thor]

5 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

This is how bad it is ....

 

 

It's what happens when you over promote Karens. 

 

Outside of Parliament, Truss wouldn't hold down a job as a GPs receptionist. 

[ri Alban]

Apparently we don't.

 A Fecking disgrace! 

How is this simpleton anywhere near a negotiating table.

[jack D and coke]

Oooft…

[Costanza]

I thought this a a decent and nuanced article and further evidence why I'd have preferred him to be the Democrat nomination and President but I am a hand wringing lefty, so I guess I would support him.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/08/we-must-do-everything-possible-avoid-enormously-destructive-war-ukraine

[Japan Jambo]

23 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Lis Truss certainly hasn't enamoured her Russian hosts.

 

Translation from https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5207486?tg

 

The British Foreign Secretary told the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry about the need to withdraw Russian armed forces from the Ukrainian border. Sergei Lavrov replied that the military is on the territory of his country. Liz Truss repeated that they should be withdrawn. To this, the Russian minister again objected that the military is not violating anything, since they have the right to conduct any maneuvers on the territory of the Russian Federation.

After that, he himself addressed a question to his British colleague: “Do you recognize the sovereignty of Russia over the Rostov and Voronezh regions?”

“Great Britain will never recognize Russian sovereignty over these regions,” the Foreign Minister replied after a short pause.

British Ambassador to the Russian Federation Deborah Bonnert had to intervene in the situation, who delicately explained to Mrs. Truss that we were really talking about Russian regions.

 

dear god, we need better politicians... always baffled me that we put spectacularly unqualified folks into some of the biggest jobs in the country then promote/demote/fire them once they've actually began to understand their brief.

[Pap]

Just make a pledge that a Nato alligned Ukraine wont take The Crimea back. Job done.

[Savage Vince]

23 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Lis Truss certainly hasn't enamoured her Russian hosts.

 

Translation from https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5207486?tg

 

The British Foreign Secretary told the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry about the need to withdraw Russian armed forces from the Ukrainian border. Sergei Lavrov replied that the military is on the territory of his country. Liz Truss repeated that they should be withdrawn. To this, the Russian minister again objected that the military is not violating anything, since they have the right to conduct any maneuvers on the territory of the Russian Federation.

After that, he himself addressed a question to his British colleague: “Do you recognize the sovereignty of Russia over the Rostov and Voronezh regions?”

“Great Britain will never recognize Russian sovereignty over these regions,” the Foreign Minister replied after a short pause.

British Ambassador to the Russian Federation Deborah Bonnert had to intervene in the situation, who delicately explained to Mrs. Truss that we were really talking about Russian regions.

 

The actual state of the United Kingdom now 😃

[dobmisterdobster]

41 minutes ago, Pap said:

Just make a pledge that a Nato alligned Ukraine wont take The Crimea back. Job done.

 

I would agree to that as long as Russia leaves Donetsk.

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

I would agree to that as long as Russia leaves Donetsk.

 

Russia isn't in Donetsk.

[dobmisterdobster]

13 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Russia isn't in Donetsk.

 

Russian separatist proxies*

[Cruyff]

It's not looking good unfortunately. Hopefully Nato and Russia can come to some sort of agreement and Putin stands his forces down. War is unthinkable. 

[manaliveits105]

British Nationals advised to leave Ukraine 

 

[Footballfirst]

Foreign Office asking British nationals to leave. Some reports of invasion expected next week.

 

 

[Robbies right hand man]

12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Foreign Office asking British nationals to leave. Some reports of invasion expected next week.

 

 

Oh god… it begins.

 

However, NATO expansion onto Russia boarders is understandably concerning and a red line.

 

Ultimately, we should push for a peaceful resolution by stating that we won’t offer Ukraine into NATO. 
 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Robbies right hand man

[Footballfirst]

 

[NANOJAMBO]

50 minutes ago, Robbies right hand man said:

Oh god… it begins.

 

However, NATO expansion onto Russia boarders is understandably concerning and a red line.

 

Ultimately, we should push for a peaceful resolution by stating that we won’t offer Ukraine into NATO. 
 

Ukraine has a right to choose for itself. 

The west cannot possibly say NATO membership willl never be offered to Ukraine - that would totally isolate Ukraine and be a green light for Russia to do whatever it wants whenever it wants. 

[dobmisterdobster]

Why now? I would've left ages ago.

Gotta get out of Dodge.

[Lone Striker]

6 hours ago, Pap said:

Just make a pledge that a Nato alligned Ukraine wont take The Crimea back. Job done.

I think part of the problem around negotiations is that Ukraine isn't a NATO country, yet seems to be welcoming NATO assistance within its borders (troops, equipment, strategists etc).  Its almost as if Putin's demand that Ukraine never joins NATO is irrelevant, since the current situation shows that they don't need to.

 

Maybe it was a dare by Putin to see how the West would respond.   

 

imo, Russia doesn't want a war, but wants to demonstrate how far they can go to worry the West without actually firing a shot.     It would determine the viability of future Russian "adventures" - land grabs and/or arms-length regime change in former Soviet countries.

 

It's a huge challenge to NATO countries.   They dare not fire the first shot though - that would legitimise a severe Russian military response, and the West would lose the moral high ground.

 

However Russia seems to have great expertise in attacking countries without any military involvement - espionage (Salisbury poisonings) or remote hacking/disabling essential government services or electronic financial fraud. 

 

I'd like to know how all this  dangerous sabre-rattling chimes with the Russian public.

 

  

[Lone Striker]

13 hours ago, ri Alban said:

 

How is this simpleton anywhere near a negotiating table.

 

This might go some way to answering your question       BoJo seems to have  a thing for blondes.

[RobboM]

It would be ironic if it all kicked off in Ukraine because of UK refusal to recognise parts of Russia as being Russian

[Tazio]

On 08/02/2022 at 05:19, ri Alban said:

NATO should stick 100,000 troops on the  Russian border closest to Moscow. 

The Russian border is a long way from Moscow. And the closest border is Belarus who would laugh at that suggestion. 

13 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Scots better not die for someone else's right to sovereignty and independence. 

 

 

Oh and did LT sell Russia any cheese. We export cheese, do we not .

So no Scots in the 100,000 on the border then? 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Definitely time to bomb the Russian scum

[Jambo 4 Ever]

I wonder if Scotland’s game with them in March will go ahead 

[Jeffros Furios]

6 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

I wonder if Scotland’s game with them in March will go ahead 

Putin has said Hamilton will be flattened in the next few days,  

Remember and take your camera when you flee !!