Russia Invades Ukraine

[il Duce McTarkin]

It's all very disheartening.

 

[Mikey1874]

Just now, Dirk McTarkin said:

It's all very disheartening.

 

 

Cheer up

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

 

[Cruyff]

32 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Not how you start its how you finish.

 

 

Very true. I do worry that expectations about this offensive are too high. It's a war, it's utterly brutal stuff,  it's not a game of football and there's a very real possibility that this offensive could end in a failure of some varying degree.

 

It has been really built up with propaganda & rhetoric from the Western media, the Yanks and the Ukrainians. They've hyped it to a point where anything less than a complete capitulation of the Russian army and a victory parade in Crimea will be seen as a failure. 

 

And the reality is Ukraine probably isn't going to manage to end this war with a Victory within Bidens term. Trump is going to lap that shit up as will the right wing across Europe. Joe public's tax being pissed away for nothing when people's bills are high and we're in high inflation. It's just not going to wash especially in America where the only thing folk care about is an extra dollar in their pocket. 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Very true. I do worry that expectations about this offensive are too high. It's a war, it's utterly brutal stuff,  it's not a game of football and there's a very real possibility that this offensive could end in a failure of some varying degree.

 

It has been really built up with propaganda & rhetoric from the Western media, the Yanks and the Ukrainians. They've hyped it to a point where anything less than a complete capitulation of the Russian army and a victory parade in Crimea will be seen as a failure. 

 

And the reality is Ukraine probably isn't going to manage to end this war with a Victory within Bidens term. Trump is going to lap that shit up as will the right wing across Europe. Joe public's tax being pissed away for nothing when people's bills are high and we're in high inflation. It's just not going to wash especially in America where the only thing folk care about is an extra dollar in their pocket. 

 

What has been missed in the general propaganda of Russian incompetence is that the Russians do have some deadly arms eg attack helicopters. And Ukrainian casualties aren't highlighted though careful looking you can tell they are high. 

 

But the Russians basically don't have enough good men and their casualties are hurting them. So overall they will struggle to avoid Ukrainian gains. Whether that changes the overall strategic stalemate is uncertain. 

[Homme]

It's been said over and over that this offensive won't win the war. Its going to go on for a long time yet. 

 

To lose three tanks and advance what, 17km in places isn't bad going. You have to think about the defensive positions these guys are attacking and the months of prep work the Russians have done ahead of this.

[Cade]

As long as the Ukrainian offensives take more territory than the Russian ones, and they manage it with far less casualties than the Russians do when attacking, they'll still win.

But that kind of attritional warfare is brutal and not a desirable state of affairs for anybody other than the Russians, who don't value their soldiers lives. 

 

The Russian armed forces are running on fumes, they'll crack sooner or later and if Ukraine can concentrate enough force in one place, they'll break through the lines and cause another panic like we saw this time last year.

 

All eyes are on this year's offensive because of the strong western backing and build-up all winter long.

Some allies have said that continued support depends on this offensive showing gains, so there is a lot of pressure on it.

And, of course, there is a looming election in the USA that could feck everything up.

 

Things have to move, and move this year.

This is only day 2.

 

[escobri]

Quick readback on this thread  shows no concern for any casualties on either side, more sorrow for equipment than personnel. Young and innocent men are being killed in droves for corrupt politicians yet it appears to be the source of daily entertainment for some on here. What do you guys think will be the key to peace? 

[Cade]

If Russia is allowed to keep any of the illegally annexed lands then there will be no peace, simply a pause for them to re-arm before they go again.
We saw that in Georgia in 2008 and in Ukraine in 2014.

Each time, they've escalated the next invasion and the amount of land annexed.

If we let them keep anything they have stolen in Ukraine, they'll simply build their army up again then hit someone else, either Georgia or Ukraine again, or maybe the Stans. 

They won't stop their imperial ambitions.

The key to peace is to physically dismantle their war machine so they're no longer a threat to anyone but themselves.
You cannot negotiate with them. It will always be in bad faith.

 

 

[escobri]

18 minutes ago, Cade said:

If Russia is allowed to keep any of the illegally annexed lands then there will be no peace, simply a pause for them to re-arm before they go again.
We saw that in Georgia in 2008 and in Ukraine in 2014.

Each time, they've escalated the next invasion and the amount of land annexed.

If we let them keep anything they have stolen in Ukraine, they'll simply build their army up again then hit someone else, either Georgia or Ukraine again, or maybe the Stans. 

They won't stop their imperial ambitions.

The key to peace is to physically dismantle their war machine so they're no longer a threat to anyone but themselves.
You cannot negotiate with them. It will always be in bad faith.

 

 

Aye more killing that'll do the trick, just the righteous killing mind.

[JFK-1]

12 hours ago, Libertarian said:

It's worrying that so many ordinary people swallow what amounts to propaganda from government owned broadcasters such as the BBC and media outlets owned by billionaires. One indisputable fact is that Ukraine at independence in 1991 had a population of over 52 million, the current population is now down to around 18 million.

 

 

 

So if the BBC produces nothing but propaganda, how do you know this? What source do you have the rest of us don't? Who told you there are only 18 million Ukrainians?  

[Dawnrazor]

14 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

So if the BBC produces nothing but propaganda, how do you know this? What source do you have the rest of us don't? Who told you there are only 18 million Ukrainians?  

The Aliens that built the Pyramids.

[Cade]

18 minutes ago, escobri said:

Aye more killing that'll do the trick, just the righteous killing mind.

 

Alright, over to you.

 

What would be your "path to peace"

 

Other than giving the bully exactly what he wants and hoping he's satisfied?

[Jeffros Furios]

23 minutes ago, escobri said:

Aye more killing that'll do the trick, just the righteous killing mind.

Lots of Russians need to die for Ukraine to win and then hopefully peace .

 

[JFK-1]

1 hour ago, escobri said:

Quick readback on this thread  shows no concern for any casualties on either side, more sorrow for equipment than personnel. Young and innocent men are being killed in droves for corrupt politicians yet it appears to be the source of daily entertainment for some on here. What do you guys think will be the key to peace? 

 

Nobody from the top brass down constantly whines about the casualties. Which doesn't mean they're not concerned, that's just you implying it for whatever reason. There have been waves of empathy for the human casualties of this war on both sides all through this thread and in the media.

 

But it becomes sort of tedious and time wasting to talk about nothing else? Is that what you want? In addition. Most people think killing a bunch of Russians is the key to peace. What do you think? Since you're so casualty oriented?

[henrysmithsgloves]

 

[JFK-1]

7 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I've seen at least 2 possibly 5 Leopards already and multiple Bradley's that are out of action. It's not been a great start. 

 

I think we have all been expecting some kind of D day blitz out of the blue. I see the analysts saying these are what they call shaping actions, for a variety of reasons including deception.

 

They're saying there has been no combined arms action as yet. But that when it does come we wont be sitting here saying is this it. We will all know this is it.

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, Cade said:

*If Russia is allowed to keep any of the illegally annexed lands then there will be no peace, simply a pause for them to re-arm before they go again.
We saw that in Georgia in 2008 and in Ukraine in 2014.

Each time, they've escalated the next invasion and the amount of land annexed.

If we let them keep anything they have stolen in Ukraine, they'll simply build their army up again then hit someone else, either Georgia or Ukraine again, or maybe the Stans. 

They won't stop their imperial ambitions.

The key to peace is to physically dismantle their war machine so they're no longer a threat to anyone but themselves.
You cannot negotiate with them. It will always be in bad faith.

 

 

News just in. Mexico doubles in size and Ireland has unified.

[Cade]

Two of the three knocked-out Leopard 2s are back in action.

Dragged off the battlefield, fitted with new road wheels and tracks, back in the fight.

 

Ukraine is making use of RAAM rounds in their artillery, which contain 9 anti-armour mines each, and are scattering these along roads which Russian reinforcements will need to use in order to reach the front lines.

Russian tactics seem to be that they fight for a couple of hours then withdraw to the next trench and keep doing that until reinforcements come up for a counter attack.

But no reinforcements are reaching them.

Seems that Ukraine has taken the high ground on either side of a valley that leads to a tactically significant town in the south. 

[Pap]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

Two of the three knocked-out Leopard 2s are back in action.

Dragged off the battlefield, fitted with new road wheels and tracks, back in the fight.

 

Ukraine is making use of RAAM rounds in their artillery, which contain 9 anti-armour mines each, and are scattering these along roads which Russian reinforcements will need to use in order to reach the front lines.

Russian tactics seem to be that they fight for a couple of hours then withdraw to the next trench and keep doing that until reinforcements come up for a counter attack.

But no reinforcements are reaching them.

Seems that Ukraine has taken the high ground on either side of a valley that leads to a tactically significant town in the south. 

 

I love the smell of a Cade update in the morning 👍

 

 

[WorldChampions1902]

40 minutes ago, Pap said:

 

I love the smell of a Cade update in the morning 👍

 

 

Indeed. Always very informative and saves me the bother of trawling various news sites, some of which are no doubt ‘inaccurate’.

[Mikey1874]

14 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

So if the BBC produces nothing but propaganda, how do you know this? What source do you have the rest of us don't? Who told you there are only 18 million Ukrainians?  

 

The BBC detailed reporting has been excellent. For example they carefully tracked Russian deaths by going to Russian towns and villages. Some of their reporting showing life in Ukraine. 

 

They are being careful in following the facts and they have new teams and emphasis on this. So for example they are asking questions and posing the 'both sides' points of view about the dam which is annoying people who just want to say Russia did it. 

[Cade]

The problem the BBC has is that when it tries to go for "balance" and "both sides", it gives equal weight to both sides.

So, if 99 people are saying one thing and 1 person is saying the other, the BBC will present it as if both sides have equal value.

That's not balance, nor impartiality.

That's inflating a fringe view to the same importance as the general consensus.

That's bad journalism.

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

Depends whose general consensus you're inclined to believe.  

[Cade]

 

 

Forget the experts, here's the opinion of Dave from down the pub.

[il Duce McTarkin]

Yeh, because a healthy skepticism of an accepted consensus in a time of war and that meme are definitely the same thing.

[Cade]

One issue we have right now is that Ukraine has ordered a communications blackout from the frontlines.

They're not saying anything about what's going on.

So that's created an information vacuum which the Russians are happily filling.

Mostly with pure gobshite, but as it's the only information being presented, people are running with it.

We've seen Leopards being photoshopped over older pictures of knocked out tanks.

We've seen the same few images and videos being flipped or shown from different angles or edited a bit and claims being made that it's a different incident each time.

We've seen bradleys knocked out in Afghanistan being presented as up to date losses.

Usual Russian propaganda nonsense.

 

A few days from now, if Ukraine takes a big town, it'll suddenly pop up on the news out of nowhere.

[Mikey1874]

Next after effects of the British long range weapons already seen. 

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

One issue we have right now is that Ukraine has ordered a communications blackout from the frontlines.

They're not saying anything about what's going on.

So that's created an information vacuum which the Russians are happily filling.

Mostly with pure gobshite, but as it's the only information being presented, people are running with it.

We've seen Leopards being photoshopped over older pictures of knocked out tanks.

We've seen the same few images and videos being flipped or shown from different angles or edited a bit and claims being made that it's a different incident each time.

We've seen bradleys knocked out in Afghanistan being presented as up to date losses.

Usual Russian propaganda nonsense.

 

The only folk for whom any of that is an issue are the ghouls who are frothing at the gash for the next exciting installment of the disgustingly normalised war-porn that appears de-rigueur in this internet information age.

[Bauld]

1 hour ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

The only folk for whom any of that is an issue are the ghouls who are frothing at the gash for the next exciting installment of the disgustingly normalised war-porn that appears de-rigueur in this internet information age.

 

I'm seeing a huge difference between this and the American invasion of Iraq.

 

This has been tame compared to that. Every day the new was filled with soldiers fighting in the dessert. Glorified images of gunships and tanks firing on the enemy. 

 

It was a circus. This has been nothing compared to it.

[il Duce McTarkin]

20 minutes ago, Bauld said:

 

It was a circus. This has been nothing compared to it.

 

And rightly so, in the main-stream media at least.

 

Folk want to know what's going on, I get that, it's a perilous situation of global significance and people are rightly worried.

But the bottom line is that neither belligerent is going to publicly show their hand intentionally, so the majority of internet chatter and opinion will be just that, uneducated, unverifiable, chatter and opinion.

 

The number of internet 'war rooms' that have sprung up is mental.

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Dirk McTarkin

[Pap]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

One issue we have right now is that Ukraine has ordered a communications blackout from the frontlines.

They're not saying anything about what's going on.

So that's created an information vacuum which the Russians are happily filling.

Mostly with pure gobshite, but as it's the only information being presented, people are running with it.

We've seen Leopards being photoshopped over older pictures of knocked out tanks.

We've seen the same few images and videos being flipped or shown from different angles or edited a bit and claims being made that it's a different incident each time.

We've seen bradleys knocked out in Afghanistan being presented as up to date losses.

Usual Russian propaganda nonsense.

 

A few days from now, if Ukraine takes a big town, it'll suddenly pop up on the news out of nowhere.

 

Because Russia decides there was little strategic value in it.

 

You've got to hand it to them about their misinformation

[escobri]

22 hours ago, Cade said:

 

Alright, over to you.

 

What would be your "path to peace"

 

Other than giving the bully exactly what he wants and hoping he's satisfied?

Sorry I don't have a "path for peace" I'm just a random pleb on a football forum.

[Libertarian]

While armchair generals sit and pontificate it seems that Ukrainian conscripts are dieing in large numbers in their failed offensive which is being carried out to placate American politicians who are demanding results for their financial backing. The battlefield is currently littered with the burnt out carcasses of western tanks.

 

 

[Pap]

12 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

While armchair generals sit and pontificate it seems that Ukrainian conscripts are dieing in large numbers in their failed offensive which is being carried out to placate American politicians who are demanding results for their financial backing. The battlefield is currently littered with the burnt out carcasses of western tanks.

 

 

 

Have day off, mate

[Jeffros Furios]

20 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

While armchair generals sit and pontificate it seems that Ukrainian conscripts are dieing in large numbers in their failed offensive which is being carried out to placate American politicians who are demanding results for their financial backing. The battlefield is currently littered with the burnt out carcasses of western tanks.

 

 

you're getting worse by the day 

[The Mighty Thor]

33 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

While armchair generals sit and pontificate it seems that Ukrainian conscripts are dieing in large numbers in their failed offensive which is being carried out to placate American politicians who are demanding results for their financial backing. The battlefield is currently littered with the burnt out carcasses of western tanks.

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

56 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

While armchair generals sit and pontificate it seems that Ukrainian conscripts are dieing in large numbers in their failed offensive which is being carried out to placate American politicians who are demanding results for their financial backing. The battlefield is currently littered with the burnt out carcasses of western tanks.

 

 

 

What do you propose as an alternative?

Serious question asked in good faith.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On 09/06/2023 at 14:28, Cruyff said:

Very true. I do worry that expectations about this offensive are too high. It's a war, it's utterly brutal stuff,  it's not a game of football and there's a very real possibility that this offensive could end in a failure of some varying degree.

 

It has been really built up with propaganda & rhetoric from the Western media, the Yanks and the Ukrainians. They've hyped it to a point where anything less than a complete capitulation of the Russian army and a victory parade in Crimea will be seen as a failure. 

 

And the reality is Ukraine probably isn't going to manage to end this war with a Victory within Bidens term. Trump is going to lap that shit up as will the right wing across Europe. Joe public's tax being pissed away for nothing when people's bills are high and we're in high inflation. It's just not going to wash especially in America where the only thing folk care about is an extra dollar in their pocket. 

 

The US has a very long track record of being absolutely stingy to the point of absurdity about anything and everything regarding government spending, with national news broadcasts losing their shit over misplaced $20k in billion dollar programs . . . right up until it comes to military spending, which the military-industrial complex has effectively ensured that the both parties will literally compete to see who can spend the most even when the actual military is saying, "thanks, but no, we could really do with a bit less, it's fine."

[periodictabledancer]

Please exercise discretion if you're of a sensitive nature ....

 

 

[Libertarian]

8 hours ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

What do you propose as an alternative?

Serious question asked in good faith.

The conflict in Ukraine could have been avoided if Ukraine had agreed to become a neutral state. However encouraged by neo-cons in Washington they chose to build the largest military in Europe. They also chose to continue shelling the Russian civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk in breach of the Minsk I & II peace agreements. They also chose not to address the issue of the Nazi Azov Brigade. 

The US guaranteed Ukrainian security and yet Ukraine has lost its industrial regions in the east, is highly likely to become landlocked when the Russians take Odessa and Ukraine is now lying in ruins.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Libertarian

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 minute ago, Libertarian said:

The conflict in Ukraine could have been avoided if Ukraine had agreed to become a neutral state. However encouraged by neo-cons in Washington they chose to build the largest military in Europe. They also chose to continue shelling the Russian civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk in breach of the Minsk I & II peace agreements. They also chose not to address the issue of the Nazi Azov Brigade. 

The US guaranteed Ukrainian security and yet Ukraine has lost its industrial regions in the east, is highly likely to become landlocked when the Russians take Odessa and is now lying in ruins 

 

Thanks for the reply. 👍

 

So could the conflict have been avoided if Ukraine had agreed to become a neutral state before or after the annexation of Crimea in 2014, or before or after the full-scale invasion of 2022?

I'm aware that the situation in Donetsk and Lugansk has never been black-and-white, and that there is a toxic strain of extreme right-wing ideological element running through pretty much every country in Eastern Europe, but, to your knowledge, did the Russian Federation seek to engage the 'West' in its dispute with Ukraine?

[Libertarian]

26 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Thanks for the reply. 👍

 

So could the conflict have been avoided if Ukraine had agreed to become a neutral state before or after the annexation of Crimea in 2014, or before or after the full-scale invasion of 2022?

I'm aware that the situation in Donetsk and Lugansk has never been black-and-white, and that there is a toxic strain of extreme right-wing ideological element running through pretty much every country in Eastern Europe, but, to your knowledge, did the Russian Federation seek to engage the 'West' in its dispute with Ukraine?

Crimea left Ukraine after the the CIA backed Maiden, which overthrew the democratically elected Yanukovich. The Crimean people held a referendum which overwhelmingly supported breaking from Ukraine and rejoining Russia. The last time I was in Crimea the Crimean people seemed to be delighted to have returned to Russia. Even before the events of 2014 on my trips to Crimea I was struck by the numbers of Russian flags displayed by ordinary Crimeans and. Indeed everyone  spoke Russian.

Crimea is too important strategically and emotionally for Russia; Sevastopol is the home of the Black Sea fleet and historically Russia has spilled too much blood in the defence of Crimea.

It hasn't been widely reported by Western media that Macron and Merkel have admitted that they had no intention to keeping to the Minsk I & II peace agreements. It's therefore not surprising that Russia feels it cannot trust the West and will therefore act in its own best interests.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Libertarian

[il Duce McTarkin]

33 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

It hasn't been widely reported by Western media that Macron and Merkel have admitted that they had no intention to keeping to the Minsk I & II peace agreements. It's therefore not surprising that Russia feels it cannot trust the West and will therefore act in its own best interests.

 

So where was it reported then, and to what end did Macron and Merkel have no intention of keeping to the Minsk I & II peace agreements?

See, this is where it becomes like Chinese whispers at best, and a good old-fashioned propaganda and disinformation campaign at its most pernicious.

My guy says this and your guy says that. Naw they didnae. Aye they did. Yer ma's a slag. Etc.

The reality is that all sides (more than two actors here) fall well short of honesty, well short, and all sides harbour some form of imperialistic inclination at various scales - be those economic, culturally hegemonic, territoriality expansionist, etc, etc.

The other reality is that only one protagonist launched a full scale land invasion of a neighboring country, committing all sorts of crimes against humanity in the process, and committing several generations of young men and women in both countries (for the moment) to a wholly unnecessary tragedy.

You've been clear on your disdain and distrust for what you would term the 'west', so for balance, what's the gen on Russian strategy and foreign policies? Over the top? Justified? Don't go far enough?

And what about Putin? Stand up guy? Misunderstood pragmatist who's ends justify his means? Ruthless gangster? Psychopath warlord? Or a terrifying combination of the lot?

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Dirk McTarkin

[Jeffros Furios]

1 hour ago, Libertarian said:

The conflict in Ukraine could have been avoided if Ukraine had agreed to become a neutral state. However encouraged by neo-cons in Washington they chose to build the largest military in Europe. They also chose to continue shelling the Russian civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk in breach of the Minsk I & II peace agreements. They also chose not to address the issue of the Nazi Azov Brigade. 

The US guaranteed Ukrainian security and yet Ukraine has lost its industrial regions in the east, is highly likely to become landlocked when the Russians take Odessa and Ukraine is now lying in ruins.

Definitely a BOT and a Trump fanboy .

[il Duce McTarkin]

3 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

Definitely a BOT and a Trump fanboy .

 

Interesting profile pic, Jeffros.

[ri Alban]

20 hours ago, Cade said:

 

 

Forget the experts, here's the opinion of Dave from down the pub.

Hello Dave, how are you?

[Libertarian]

19 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

Definitely a BOT and a Trump fanboy .

Wrong on both counts 

[Libertarian]

1 hour ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

So where was it reported then, and to what end did Macron and Merkel have no intention of keeping to the Minsk I & II peace agreements?

See, this is where it becomes like Chinese whispers at best, and a good old-fashioned propaganda and disinformation campaign at its most pernicious.

My guy says this and your guy says that. Naw they didnae. Aye they did. Yer ma's a slag. Etc.

The reality is that all sides (more than two actors here) fall well short of honesty, well short, and all sides harbour some form of imperialistic inclination at various scales - be those economic, culturally hegemonic, territoriality expansionist, etc, etc.

The other reality is that only one protagonist launched a full scale land invasion of a neighboring country, committing all sorts of crimes against humanity in the process, and committing several generations of young men and women in both countries (for the moment) to a wholly unnecessary tragedy.

You've been clear on your disdain and distrust for what you would term the 'west', so for balance, what's the gen on Russian strategy and foreign policies? Over the top? Justified? Don't go far enough?

And what about Putin? Stand up guy? Misunderstood pragmatist who's ends justify his means? Ruthless gangster? Psychopath warlord? Or a terrifying combination of the lot?

 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html

Your last paragraph could just as easily be applied to Bush and Blair and the illegal attack on Iraq. There's also the western attack upon Libya turning Africa's most affluent country into a failed state, slave markets et al

[il Duce McTarkin]

50 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html

 

 

The quotes are in black and white, sure, but the interpretation and opinion are hardly from a balanced source.  It puts the blame for this war squarely at the feet of socialism's sworn enemy, the capitalist west. It makes little if any mention of any underhand Russian strategy in the region. Are we to believe that there is/are none? Is Russia the entirely innocent party here?

Big, bad capitalist NATO goaded poor, downtrodden, Russia into sending a 40 mile armoured column on Kyiv and doing a spot of killing and raping on their way. It's the west's fault if Russia nukes us all to ****. Etc.

If it all tallies with what you're inclined to believe, or to your political leaning, then fair enough, but objectively we both know that the 'truth', in so much as there can ever be a 'truth', lies somewhere amidst the competing interests, ideologies, and skewed interpretations. This is why historians seldom agree, despite centuries of poring over - and meticulously dissecting - the 'facts'.

 

50 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

Your last paragraph could just as easily be applied to Bush and Blair and the illegal attack on Iraq. There's also the western attack upon Libya turning Africa's most affluent country into a failed state, slave markets et al

 

Of course it could, but this thread isn't about that, is it, and I'm no apologist for misguided western interference and interventionism. Let's leave the whattaboutery out of it.

 

So anyway, are you going to answer the first question I asked earlier on, what do you see as an alternative to the impasse we are currently at? Do the west withdraw support for Kyiv? What then becomes of Ukraine? Do Russia push for a ceasefire and dialogue?

And the second question, what's the gen on Russian strategy and foreign policies? Over the top? Justified? Don't go far enough? What about Putin? Stand up guy? Misunderstood pragmatist who's ends justify his means? Ruthless gangster? Psychopath warlord? Or a terrifying combination of the lot?

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Dirk McTarkin