TYNECASTLE STADIUM UPGRADE POTENTIAL - UEFA category 4 granted ( updated/merged )

[Bazzas right boot]

36 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Opinions and all that , but personally I see people struggling just now , and what seems like not much to those of us fortunate enough to get by okay just now , I also know people who are on fixed incomes and wages that have not gone up with the massive hike in prices and inflation . I dont think people are thinking deeply enough on this , and it is perhaps my fault for using heating and eating in my example . Those people are at the extreme end of what is happening and I doubt they had a season ticket before things got so bad . Their troubles go beyond a small luxury like being able to go along and watch their local football team that they have admired all their lives . A little bit up that ladder however , there people who have a concession ticket and their budgets right up to the limit of income and outgoings . For many of them it can be the only thing they do socially . The recent soaring prices of food , energy and other essentials will have made their season ticket no longer viable at current prices , or at least more difficult to justify . Stick the prices up and that is them gone . Inevitably they will rise again , but in my opinion , now is not the time to do it . Let things level off a bit first . Let people get used to budgeting in this time of difficulty and then revisit it . Even then , I would look at options like giving those o65s who can afford a full price ticket the option to pay that , and maybe offer them a hospitality place once a season or some thing? I pay my PR ticket up monthly , so a small increase in that I could handle because it would be spread and I am fortunate enough to afford that , so I would be happy enough to see that go up before concessions do

 

For me concessions are two things 

 

1) a reward for those guys that have followed their team throughout their working life , often not getting any thing like value for money in return

 

2) a way of bringing the next generation of supporters in to the stadium , and hopefully they get the bug . If they do , they will keep going when they start work and can afford the high prices , and hopefully still be there when they qualify for the concessionary reward when they retire 

 

 

It's a nice gesture,  hopefully it doesn't make us less competitive on the park.

 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

On 22/05/2023 at 21:29, Dunks said:

 

Memory must be fading - Bayern never even sold out. 26k in the end.

 

Easily 30k (not officially) at the Hearts v Celtic Scottish Cup game in 1987 and same again for Scotland v Portugal u-16s. Probably the two biggest crowds I've been in at Tynecastle.

I tried to get tickets for the Bayern game but was told it had sold out.

[Bad Religion]

On 22/05/2023 at 16:41, His name is said:

Another small issue, do we need such large segregation sections? Loosing out on decent cash over the season 

 

Is there any other reason than cost why we can't build some kind of barrier there?

 

Even if we were to give Hibs the whole stand and restrict the OF to that section, what difference would a barrier make? 

[Libertarian]

13 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

£20m investment would take at least 20-25 years to repay if all FOH money was used to pay for the investment 

The extra revenue generated by a bigger capacity possibly £2/3million per year along with the FOH contributions would allow the club to pay off any outlay much more quickly. I am absolutely sure that if Hearts invested in increasing the capacity that this would pay for itself within a few years. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Libertarian

[OTT]

7 hours ago, Libertarian said:

The extra revenue generated by a bigger capacity possibly £2/3million per year along with the FOH contributions would allow the club to pay off any outlay much more quickly. I am absolutely sure that if Hearts invested in increasing the capacity that this would pay for itself within a few years. 

 

I really think its a no brainer, having a waiting list is great, but its money left on the table. Its proof we don't even need to compete for league titles to fill the stands, fans have only ever wanted a competitive team that can deliver a strong showing in the league. We've never looked even close to the OF yet crowds have remains solid because there is strong demand for a successful Hearts! Edinburgh, the Lothians & Fife wants it. So expand, and create the capacity to draw more in.  I think we're possibly even at a point where 25k would just cater for the here and now (a bit like the main stand!). 

 

If we can secure funding to do it, we absolutely 100% need to do it. It will be a statement of intent that we are a club with ambitions and I think for young folk in Edinburgh, it will give them a team to really get behind, rather than going on easy street and following the gruesome twosome. Football success is basically just money, so its not unreasonable to say that if we got upwards of 25k by expanding the Wheatfield, finishing 3rd would look to be ours to lose each season, rather than there being genuine uncertainty over where we're likely to finish. 

 

Question becomes how to actually secure that funding because as folk rightly point out, it ain't going to be cheap!  

[WheatfieldWarrior]

10 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Sheep game was six years ago. Their support has plummeted since then. 
Giving Rangers and Celtic 10-15k seats at Murrayfield just makes it like a cup semi - we completely lose any semblance of home advantage. 

 

They have figures here - it's difficult to pick a like-for-like, but the numbers seem to be up a few thousand despite the economic conditions in the north east. 

Aberdeen | Home Attendances | 2016-2017 | Football Web Pages

 

[His name is]

9 hours ago, Bad Religion said:

 

Is there any other reason than cost why we can't build some kind of barrier there?

 

Even if we were to give Hibs the whole stand and restrict the OF to that section, what difference would a barrier make? 

Totally agree. Perspex screens right down 1 row of seats, potentially 1 seat either side for space. That would pay itself in a couple of games

[Sooks]

9 hours ago, Bad Religion said:

 

Is there any other reason than cost why we can't build some kind of barrier there?

 

Even if we were to give Hibs the whole stand and restrict the OF to that section, what difference would a barrier make? 

Probably worried it will end up like the windows on the Budongo Trail at Edinburgh Zoo 

[Libertarian]

On 23/05/2023 at 20:05, soonbe110 said:

25,000 for games against OF and Hibs would involve us allowing a lot more away fans in than we currently do so I’m against that. No chance we could ever get close to 25k v Aberdeen. 

I don't understand why you would rather see Hearts generating more revenue, which would allow us to sign better quality players. While I am personally not bothered at all by allowing more away fans in, as long as it's not at the cost of Hearts supporters and as long as they pay. But anyway a bigger capacity at Tynecastle doesn't necessarily mean more away fans. It would allow more season tickets to be sold and more Hearts fans into the games 

[Libertarian]

4 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I really think its a no brainer, having a waiting list is great, but its money left on the table. Its proof we don't even need to compete for league titles to fill the stands, fans have only ever wanted a competitive team that can deliver a strong showing in the league. We've never looked even close to the OF yet crowds have remains solid because there is strong demand for a successful Hearts! Edinburgh, the Lothians & Fife wants it. So expand, and create the capacity to draw more in.  I think we're possibly even at a point where 25k would just cater for the here and now (a bit like the main stand!). 

 

If we can secure funding to do it, we absolutely 100% need to do it. It will be a statement of intent that we are a club with ambitions and I think for young folk in Edinburgh, it will give them a team to really get behind, rather than going on easy street and following the gruesome twosome. Football success is basically just money, so its not unreasonable to say that if we got upwards of 25k by expanding the Wheatfield, finishing 3rd would look to be ours to lose each season, rather than there being genuine uncertainty over where we're likely to finish. 

 

Question becomes how to actually secure that funding because as folk rightly point out, it ain't going to be cheap!  

Agree with all of this.

[Jambo Buckets]

On 23/05/2023 at 20:31, soonbe110 said:

That suggests about 17,500-17,750 Hearts fans buying tickets for every home game this season including ticket exchange so that’s the demand there’s been.  Probably about 750 -1,000 empty home seats every game so that’s a 750-1,000 further ticket exchange opportunity. If all away teams are given one section circa 600-800 and we put in permanent segregation that probably frees up another 600-800  seats in Roseburn. 
So in total there’s probably space for another 1,300-1,750 home fans before it’s completely sold out. Given we haven’t completely sold out any home end seats at any game so far this season I think we have enough spare capacity to last a few years. 
 

Ticket pricing also needs to be looked at as there really is a need to increase prices and revenue. As an example, given  the way the population is aging the clubs o65 income at the moment at under £13 per match for Platinum seats seriously undervalues Scottish football and is a major part of the poor investment levels in the game. 

Actually every home league game has been sold out this season apart from the 2 games v Celtic. There has been 18,000 Hearts fans at most league games at Tynecastle this season because away allocation is only 600 or so.

It’s great to say we’ll cut away allocations further but it doesn’t solve any problems financially. Obviously we want Hearts fans in first but whether it’s a home or away fan missing out it’s the same money we’re missing out on. Aberdeen could have brought 4,000 for the recent game but got 600 tickets. United could bring 1,000 more than we give them and Kilmarnock, Dundee, Motherwell and St Mirren could bring an extra 500 or so. Even St Johnstone sold it out.

[FarmerTweedy]

On 22/05/2023 at 20:12, OTT said:

Am I right in saying a shallower stand has higher capacity potential ? It would be interesting what the theoretical maximum we could get in the Wheatfield foot print would be -  @Led Tasso, I know from the other threads you've had a fair bit to say on that. Assuming we could get the Community Pitch, its not a bad footprint provided we seek to maximise the capacity when it is eventually renovated. 

 

A shallow tier 1 with a steeper tier 2 might get us the extra capacity without losing that right on top of the pitch feel that Tynie is known for.

 

(as with all posts on stadium capacity, it comes with a big fat caveat of the COMAH/ H&S issues being dealt with)

I don't think a shallower stand would increase the capacity possible on a set footprint, as you've got to allow a minimum legroom. What a shallower stand would do is obviously reduce the total height of the stand, which could potentially assist with planning permission in relation to how it affects surrounding buildings, housing, etc. But any significant reduction in the steepness of the stand will affect the feeling of being right on top of the action.

[OTT]

11 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

I don't think a shallower stand would increase the capacity possible on a set footprint, as you've got to allow a minimum legroom. What a shallower stand would do is obviously reduce the total height of the stand, which could potentially assist with planning permission in relation to how it affects surrounding buildings, housing, etc. But any significant reduction in the steepness of the stand will affect the feeling of being right on top of the action.

 

Cheers FT - It was something I noticed with a lot of the bigger stadiums - that the stands seemed shallower than what we have at Tynie, with the exception being St James Park. 

 

Maybe something to think about, if we do run into planning permission issues related to height when we're eventually looking at the stand. 

[johnking123]

The extra fans would end up a million a year.  1,2 great players for our team 👏 

[FarmerTweedy]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

Cheers FT - It was something I noticed with a lot of the bigger stadiums - that the stands seemed shallower than what we have at Tynie, with the exception being St James Park. 

 

Maybe something to think about, if we do run into planning permission issues related to height when we're eventually looking at the stand. 

Maybe, but the reality is that for a new Wheatfield stand to have a capacity far bigger than the existing one (say, double the seats), it will either have to be much taller (about double the height) or much shallower (about half the steepness). The former would be extremely difficult to get planning permission for, and the latter would have a hugely detrimental effect on the view of the action and the atmosphere. It would become much more like being at Hampdump than Tynecastle. 

[FarmerTweedy]

On 23/05/2023 at 21:12, soonbe110 said:

I think the basic issue is that the tickets are way too cheap. It’s a 35% reduction based on an arbitrary age (no longer pension age).  Maybe find a way to change the discount to something more sensible over a few years as well as changing it to state pension age. I think the o66 discount should probably be closer to 20%. 
In general I think all tickets are priced too low. U13’s at £110 for platinum means the club is getting less than a fiver a game for those seats. 

I'd certainly hope the people at the club involved in setting the prices have a better grasp of arithmetic than you do!

[FarmerTweedy]

On 23/05/2023 at 23:38, Francis Albert said:

Indeed I do not know if a bigger new stand using the wasted space of the Foundation Plaza would have been possible but in retrospect we should have tried for it or at least had designed for the possibility 

 

What do you mean by "should have tried it"? Do you mean we should have ignored the council planning restrictions, built a bigger stand despite them telling us we could only build the size we actually did build, and kept our fingers crossed they didn't take legal action to make us knock it down (or just refuse to issue any sort of completion/safety certificate that would allow us to actually use it)?

[FarmerTweedy]

On 24/05/2023 at 10:33, Libertarian said:

The extra revenue generated by a bigger capacity possibly £2/3million per year along with the FOH contributions would allow the club to pay off any outlay much more quickly. I am absolutely sure that if Hearts invested in increasing the capacity that this would pay for itself within a few years. 

If you're absolutely sure, you must have come up with plans that increase the capacity while also satisfying the council's concerns regarding health and safety, COMAH, impact on nearby residents, etc, and also come up with costings for construction, fit-out, etc of everything.  Can you post the details of all this please, so we can understand how we can do this? 

 

Thanks in advance! 

[FarmerTweedy]

On 24/05/2023 at 17:55, OTT said:

 

I really think its a no brainer, having a waiting list is great, but its money left on the table. Its proof we don't even need to compete for league titles to fill the stands, fans have only ever wanted a competitive team that can deliver a strong showing in the league. We've never looked even close to the OF yet crowds have remains solid because there is strong demand for a successful Hearts! Edinburgh, the Lothians & Fife wants it. So expand, and create the capacity to draw more in.  I think we're possibly even at a point where 25k would just cater for the here and now (a bit like the main stand!). 

 

If we can secure funding to do it, we absolutely 100% need to do it. It will be a statement of intent that we are a club with ambitions and I think for young folk in Edinburgh, it will give them a team to really get behind, rather than going on easy street and following the gruesome twosome. Football success is basically just money, so its not unreasonable to say that if we got upwards of 25k by expanding the Wheatfield, finishing 3rd would look to be ours to lose each season, rather than there being genuine uncertainty over where we're likely to finish. 

 

Question becomes how to actually secure that funding because as folk rightly point out, it ain't going to be cheap!  

It's a million miles away from being a no-brainer.  Your last sentence confirms that, even without all the other considerations! 

[FarmerTweedy]

3 hours ago, johnking123 said:

The extra fans would end up a million a year.  1,2 great players for our team 👏 

What if the construction cost is £20 million, borrowed at an interest rate of 6%, meaning finance costs (just to pay the interest mind, not to pay off the capital amount) are £1.2m a year?  200k short just on the interest, need to get rid of at least one good player just to be breaking even!

[soonbe110]

4 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

I'd certainly hope the people at the club involved in setting the prices have a better grasp of arithmetic than you do!

Where is my arithmetic wrong??

[soonbe110]

8 hours ago, Jambo Buckets said:

Actually every home league game has been sold out this season apart from the 2 games v Celtic. There has been 18,000 Hearts fans at most league games at Tynecastle this season because away allocation is only 600 or so.

It’s great to say we’ll cut away allocations further but it doesn’t solve any problems financially. Obviously we want Hearts fans in first but whether it’s a home or away fan missing out it’s the same money we’re missing out on. Aberdeen could have brought 4,000 for the recent game but got 600 tickets. United could bring 1,000 more than we give them and Kilmarnock, Dundee, Motherwell and St Mirren could bring an extra 500 or so. Even St Johnstone sold it out.

Don’t think so.  There’s always tickets available right up to ko or when ticket exchange closes. Close to sell outs but not sell outs

[Phil D. Corners]

3 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

What if the construction cost is £20 million, borrowed at an interest rate of 6%, meaning finance costs (just to pay the interest mind, not to pay off the capital amount) are £1.2m a year?  200k short just on the interest, need to get rid of at least one good player just to be breaking even!

This is where the FoH can come in to play to supply extra funds. 
 

And there is the potential that the expansion could generate other 24-7 income like the new main stand does. Conferencing/bars/hotel/restaurant/car parking etc. 

[Francis Albert]

6 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

What do you mean by "should have tried it"? Do you mean we should have ignored the council planning restrictions, built a bigger stand despite them telling us we could only build the size we actually did build, and kept our fingers crossed they didn't take legal action to make us knock it down (or just refuse to issue any sort of completion/safety certificate that would allow us to actually use it)?

Of course not. 

Did we appeal in any way against the planning restrictions. What are they based on. Or did we simply not think we needed a larger capacity. Do the planning restrictions impact on any expansion of capacity in other parts of the stadium.

[OTT]

5 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

It's a million miles away from being a no-brainer.  Your last sentence confirms that, even without all the other considerations! 

 

What do you mean? I'm saying no brainer as in, if we can secure funds to do it that its a no brainer to do. Obviously funding is a huge obstacle, but if we can secure that funding, there really isn't anything to think about. Having capacity that we can A - be certain we can fill (we will) and B - take us clear of Aberdeen and Hibs as the 3rd largest club with the resources to back that up is a no brainer!!

 

Appreciate we're splitting hairs over words  but completely accept how big a hurdle funding is, but if it can be overcame, then we need to go for it (and go for it big style, i.e the biggest stand we can get in that footprint, there won't be many other chances to increase Tynies capacity so important we maximise it when the opportunity arises). 

[pettigrewsstylist]

On 23/05/2023 at 21:21, Sooks said:

I think some people who are relatively comfortable can underestimate the difficulty facing many other people just now ? If we start putting up prices I predict we would lose a lot of supporters because of it , and end up with the same income any way , but less bums on seats . Just in my opinion though 

Youre spot on. U13s dont buy their own seat. We do not want parents leaving kids at home due to pricing.

[chrisyboy7]

I believe this issue is now being talked about at board room level.....There may perhaps be an announcement later in the year.  We are clearly growing and have hit a ceiling.  Losing  around 2 million in lost revenue a season cant go on.   It all adds up...Our club has a fabulous support and a very loyal one too. Its stiull growing.  They have also  give  very good value for season tickets holder with no increase again....Hospitality is also now too small.......Shame we didn't think much bigger but hopefully the Edinburgh council see how good this could be for the city and for employment.....We will need a 30k stadium eventually and this will be good for holding other events too.....We will await the clubs ambitions.....

 

[FarmerTweedy]

3 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Where is my arithmetic wrong??

£110 divided by 19 isn't less than a fiver!

[FarmerTweedy]

56 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

What do you mean? I'm saying no brainer as in, if we can secure funds to do it that its a no brainer to do. Obviously funding is a huge obstacle, but if we can secure that funding, there really isn't anything to think about. Having capacity that we can A - be certain we can fill (we will) and B - take us clear of Aberdeen and Hibs as the 3rd largest club with the resources to back that up is a no brainer!!

 

Appreciate we're splitting hairs over words  but completely accept how big a hurdle funding is, but if it can be overcame, then we need to go for it (and go for it big style, i.e the biggest stand we can get in that footprint, there won't be many other chances to increase Tynies capacity so important we maximise it when the opportunity arises). 

It isn't a no-brainer because it would depend on the cost of increasing the capacity. If increasing the capacity by, say, 5,000 seats would cost about £10m I'd say it'd be well worth doing, but if it would cost about £50m the extra revenue it would generate plus the FoH monthly subs added together probably wouldn't be enough to even cover the interest costs on the financing, never mind actually start to pay any of the money back. Only once a realistic cost for such a development (including finance costs) is determined can any realistic view be reached on whether it would be a no-brainer or not. 

 

Also, I don't necessarily agree that we should build the biggest thing we possibly can. For example, there probably is enough space behind the Wheatfield stand to replace it with a stand that could hold something like Bongo's 16,000 seats but (leaving aside the planning permission issues) I think such a huge stand would be so out of place in relation to the other three that it would be quite detrimental to the atmosphere of the ground and not a great experience to sit in (especially towards the back), and I also don't think there's the demand just now, or likely to be in the foreseeable future, for that much extra capacity, meaning a lot of those extra seats could be empty all, or almost all, the time.

 

I'm not against increasing capacity by the way, in fact I'm all for it if we can do it in a cost-effective way and retain at least a good bit of the existing feel of the stadium. I just think it's a bit more complicated than saying we should build the biggest thing we possibly can whatever the cost may be.

[jr ewing]

Fine just the way we are. Reduce away support if required. 

[kingantti1874]

Very dangerous for any business if growth is restricted. However, we are right on the cusp so return on investment would need to be clear. 

[chrisyboy7]

We need more seats

[chrisyboy7]

4 hours ago, jr ewing said:

Fine just the way we are. Reduce away support if required. 

small minded you are

[Italian Lambretta]

1 hour ago, chrisyboy7 said:

We need more seats

As well as the ridiculous second tunnel I noticed yesterday about 10 empty seats next to the VAR monitor that were taped off. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Italian Lambretta

[OTT]

9 minutes ago, Italian Lambretta said:

As well as the ridiculous second tunnel I noticed yesterday about 10 empty seats next to the VAR monitor that were taped off. 

 

Probably because when the cheating weegie comes over to it he's getting dugs abuse. 

[Japan Jambo]

Capacity issues are all relative, this is quite a story (Luton);

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-65483745

 

[briever]

3 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

Capacity issues are all relative, this is quite a story (Luton);

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-65483745

 

 

Proper auld ground.

[ri Alban]

On 24/05/2023 at 02:18, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

rangers got 14,000, yes

 

That's when they filled their whole allocation and **** they were loud; my eardrum was vibrating like a bar steward

 

The sheep game around 25,000, yes; 0-0

 

My timing chain in my van went after the Rangers.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

My timing chain in my van went after the Rangers.

 

The killie game at Murrayfield was the first ever game I walked out at half time; home to rangers, 0-4, this season, was only other; had work both times though too

 

 

 

-

Edited May 28, 2023 by Ricardo Quaresma
Clarity

[soonbe110]

6 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

£110 divided by 19 isn't less than a fiver!

When you remove the vat, which the club don’t receive, then yes Hearts get less than a fiver a ticket.  Think it’s £4.92. 

[soonbe110]

6 hours ago, jr ewing said:

Fine just the way we are. Reduce away support if required. 

👍 and increase usage of ticket exchange.  The OF wouldnt spend  millions or tens of millions to accommodate away fans. 

[soonbe110]

5 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

Very dangerous for any business if growth is restricted. However, we are right on the cusp so return on investment would need to be clear. 

Also very dangerous to invest in assets you maybe don’t need. Gate receipts were only a third of our total income last year at just over £5m. Even less the previous year.  How anyone  thinks an extra 5,000 seats will bring in many millions is living in cloud cuckoo land.  Lots of other ways of increasing revenue. 

[Clerry Jambo]

What was the official attendance yesterday couldn’t see it anywhere

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, Clerry Jambo said:

What was the official attendance yesterday couldn’t see it anywhere

 

 

We counted hibs fans the same way that they do at ER, so 124,685.

 

 

[hughesie27]

Just now, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

We counted hibs fans the same way that they do at ER, so 124,685.

 

 

We do the same.

[ri Alban]

29 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

The killie game at Murrayfield was the first ever game I walked out at half time; home to rangers, 0-4, this season, was only other; had work both times though too

 

 

 

-

Used to get moaned it for standing up when Hearts were on the attack at murrayfield. The day I took my seat in the new stand, back against the wall with no moaning gits was bliss. Tho, those stairs are torture. 😭

Edited May 28, 2023 by ri Alban

[kila]

.

Edited May 28, 2023 by kila

[kingantti1874]

14 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Also very dangerous to invest in assets you maybe don’t need. Gate receipts were only a third of our total income last year at just over £5m. Even less the previous year.  How anyone  thinks an extra 5,000 seats will bring in many millions is living in cloud cuckoo land.  Lots of other ways of increasing revenue. 

Agreed on this . If we were doing it personally I think we’d need to be adding more than 5k to make it worthwhile 
 

like you I’m not sure the return would be worth it.  

[kingantti1874]

9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Used to get moaned it for standing up when Hearts were on the attack at murrayfield. The day I took my seat in the new stand, back against the wall with no moaning gits was bliss. Tho, those stairs are torture. 😭

Also back row of the main.  It’s ****ing fantastic, no one telling me to sit down, and a handy shelf for my coffee 👌🏻

[jr ewing]

2 hours ago, chrisyboy7 said:

small minded you are

I can remember the bad old days. Place half empty.