Vote on preferred outcome

[Beast Boy]

28 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Reconstruction, bud.

 

Dream scenario, we're in the Prem, spend a bit, have a great season. That would noise other supports right up.

 

At the same time as recon, heads need to roll though.

 

And then there needs to be structural change in the governance of our game. No longer can a team with 200 supporters effect the lives of employees at professional clubs

I just can’t see how your last paragraph could come about, without court action though. They will just crawl back under their rocks and dig a deeper hole to hide in.

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Kenbo said:

Court for me because if it's reconstruction then I would feel like we have accepted our fate and only stayed up by default. We have been wronged and I would rather it be made right.

Sorry - but that's not true.  Ann's efforts and the threat of our court action (plus the Belgian and French court cases) have shown that we will not  accept  what the SPFL have done, and there is now considerable pressure on them to rectify the wrong by forcing through a reconstruction   ...... before we get a court to do it.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Lone Striker

[Cruyff]

16 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I don't think that's ever been on the table nor do I think it's likely any time soon.

That's why we should have taken them to court already. 

[Lone Striker]

35 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

It's not the main issue really. The main issue is the loss of revenue from demotion. 

 

If they had compensated us to the tune of £3million quid or whatever it is we expect to lose, then we could have accepted playing in the Championship next season. We'd be down there for a season, big deal. It's primarily about the money. 

 

Reconstruction is only on the cards for us because we haven't been compensated and we don't know if a Championship season can take place as normal. 

Really ?    Why would we accept being forcibly ejected from the Premiership on a very dodgy vote by our competitors, if they bunged us  £3m  ?   To me, that would be even more corrupt. As you say. there may not even be a Championship to play a full season in anyway.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Lone Striker

[Bull's-eye]

Going to court won't bring the house down because it would never get as far as a courtroom.

 

I just want to watch football again and im not really fussed who we're playing so im not voting.  

[wavydavy]

1 hour ago, indianajones said:

Court.

 

The deserve nothing less than being dragged through the legal system and being made to look like the embarrassment that they are. 

 

This for me to.

[JamboAl]

13 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

That's why we should have taken them to court already. 

I have a slight inclination to agree but going to court is expensive if we lose so we must give them every chance to rectify the wrong as it makes us look very reasonable in court.  Things now seem to be getting beyond a joke and with the utterances by certain Chairmen, it seems to me that they will not agree to anything that keeps us in the top tier. 

Now is the time!

[1971fozzy]

Torn but ultimately reconstruction would avoid unnecessary delays.

 

however court may well be the likely outcome due to the incompetence and bile that has came from the SPFL and 95% of its member clubs.

 

[Seaside jambo]

Reconstruction for me , think this is the quickest way to get back to football 

If we have to go to court then I’ll be right behind this decision , just want this mess over as soon as possible 

A think the court route will certainly see some other clubs go to the wall

 

[Bellion]

Reconstruction is the better outcome IMO.  Court case would be messy & expensive, and however strong a case we think we have, nothing is guaranteed. Also I would really prefer not to spend the next x months dwelling on this sorry affair and having to read about it every day.   

[Cruyff]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Really ?    Why would we accept being forcibly ejected from the Premiership on a very dodgy vote by our competitors, if they bunged us  £3m  ?   To me, that would be even more corrupt. As you say. there may not even be a Championship to play a full season in anyway.

 

 

Because we were shite mate.  Simple as that. 

 

We deserved to be last and that's why we've ended up in this position.

 

One season in the Championship without loss of revenue wouldn't be the end of the world would it? Might even be a good thing. 

 

Get to blood youngsters, bring back the feelgood factor, get to hurt Championship teams in the pocket, good chance to reset and sort out the mess within the club. Then come back up next season without losing a penny. 

 

The way the clubs going and being run at the moment , we might get relegated next season anyway. 🤷

 

So the main thing here is the money or, the loss of money. I believe that is Ann's position as well, im sure she said as much in one of her interviews. The football decision we can surely live with. A threat to our business, we cannot. 

[redjambo]

Reconstruction, but not if there are any OF Colt teams anywhere near it.

[Tokyo Drifter]

Reconstruction is the fairest option, though I would rather the SPFL had been the ones who innovated and implemented it rather than us being the party which insisted it be put on the table. If reconstruction is given the thumbs up - now looking increasingly unlikely, admittedly - the fact that we pushed for it will always be used against us. Besides, I don't think we'd win a legal battle - though I'd love it if the Premiership was unable to kick off because the case was ongoing. However I do think we need to salvage some honour and just accept a season in the Championship. Everyone knows we've been hard done by, and that way we retain some respect in the eyes of the other clubs. And remember: we've been rank rotten all season.

[Lone Striker]

4 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Because we were shite mate.  Simple as that.   Yes we were, but that's irrelevant.  Normal sporting integrity to determine who gets relegated/promoted was unable to continue after March 23rd.   These decisions were taken on a dodgy vote by other clubs, where each club's vote was highly influenced by their need to get prize money paid out to them. Totally outrageous to financially damage anyone on that basis.

 

We deserved to be last and that's why we've ended up in this position.  We deserved to be last as at 23rd March - yes - see above. 

 

One season in the Championship without loss of revenue wouldn't be the end of the world would it? Might even be a good thing.  It would take a court case to try to ensure we don't suffer a loss of revenue in Championship.  Otherwise, we will suffer a huge loss in revenue.

 

Get to blood youngsters, bring back the feelgood factor, get to hurt Championship teams in the pocket, good chance to reset and sort out the mess within the club. Then come back up next season without losing a penny.   I wouldn't be betting  any money on that - would you ? I think you're underestimating the shock which the club is undergoing.

 

The way the clubs going and being run at the moment , we might get relegated next season anyway.    It's possible - yes - so the HMFC board and football manager/coaches/scouts need to massively improve, regardless of which league we're in.

 

So the main thing here is the money or, the loss of money. I believe that is Ann's position as well, im sure she said as much in one of her interviews. The football decision we can surely live with. A threat to our business, we cannot.      If we live with being forcibly demoted, then that in itself is a threat to our business surely ?   

Thanks for expanding on your thoughts, Cruyff.  Mine in maroon.   👍  

[gavin1985]

Recon for me, trim down to 2 leagues and pyramid setup underneath. Two leagues of 16/18/20 teams I don't care, just ditch the split, ditch playing 4 times a season.

 

If not court and and cause at least 10 clubs to go bust. 

 

 

 

[primrose]

I think the time has come to shit or get off the pot, Reconstruct or Reimburse.  I do not think reconstruction will happen so we should be going to court to make sure that they cover our losses.  15% of the prize money = £3.73m.

 

 

£3m to HMFC

£500k to Thistle

£230K to Stranraer

 

Lets see if the money focuses the mind on doing what is right rather than doing what is easy.  Here is what each club would have to cough up to cover the 15%. To make it simple I have included all the clubs, even the 3 that have been wrongly demoted. 

 

 

Ladbrokes Premiership	Prize Money £ K	Reimbursment £K @15% =  £3730k	Balance Prize money £K	Ladbrokes League 1	Prize Money £ K	Reimbursment £K @15% =  £3730k	Balance Prize money £K
1. Celtic – £3.35m	£3,350	£502.50	£2,847.50	1st - Raith Rovers - £125,000	£125	£18.77	£106.34
2. Rangers – £2.3m	£2,300	£345.00	£1,955.00	2nd - Falkrik - £107,500	£107	£16.07	£91.04
3. Motherwell – £2.06m	£2,060	£309.00	£1,751.00	3rd - Aidrieonians - £87,500	£88	£13.17	£74.63
4. Aberdeen – £1.81m	£1,810	£271.50	£1,538.50	4th - Montrose - £85,000	£86	£12.87	£72.93
5th - Livingston - £1.68m	£1,680	£252.00	£1,428.00	5th - East Fife - £82,500	£83	£12.42	£70.38
6th - St Johnstone - £1.56m	£1,560	£234.00	£1,326.00	6th - Dumbarton - £80,000	£81	£12.12	£68.68
7th - Hibernian - £1.43m	£1,430	£214.50	£1,215.50	7th - Clyde - £77,500	£78	£11.66	£66.05
8th - Kilmarnock - £1.37m	£1,370	£205.50	£1,164.50	8th - Peterhead - £75,000	£76	£11.36	£64.35
9th - St Mirren - £1.31m	£1,310	£196.50	£1,113.50	9th - Forfar - £72,500	£73	£10.91	£61.80
10th - Ross County -5.00% - £1.25m	£1,250	£187.50	£1,062.50	10th - Stranraer - £70,000	£71	£10.61	£60.10
11th - Hamilton Accies 4.75% - £1.18m	£1,180	£177.00	£1,003.00	Ladbrokes League 2
12th - Hearts - 4.50% - £1.12m	£1,120	£168.00	£952.00	1st - Cove Rangers - £67,500	£68	£10.14	£57.46
Ladbrokes Championship				2nd - Edinburgh City - £65,000	£66	£9.84	£55.76
1st - Dundee United - £562,500	£563	£84.38	£478.13	3rd - Elgin City - £62,500	£63	£9.39	£53.21
2nd - Inverness CT - £475,000	£475	£71.31	£404.09	4th - Cowdenbeath - £60,000	£61	£9.09	£51.51
3rd - Dundee - £400,000	£400	£60.06	£340.34	5th - Queen's Park - £57,500	£58	£8.63	£48.88
4th - Ayr United - £325,000	£325	£48.80	£276.51	6th - Stirling Albion - £55,000	£56	£8.33	£47.18
5th - Arbroath - £250,000	£250	£37.53	£212.67	7th - Annan - £52,500	£53	£7.88	£44.63
6th - Dunfermline - £225,000	£225	£33.78	£191.42	8th - Stenhousemuir - £50,000	£51	£7.58	£42.93
7th - Morton - £212,500	£212	£31.83	£180.37	9th - Albion Rovers - £47,500	£47	£7.11	£40.29
8th - Alloa - £200,000	£200	£30.03	£170.17	10th - Brechin City - £45,000	£45	£6.81	£38.59
9th - Queen of the South - £187,500	£187	£28.07	£159.04
10th - Partick Thistle - £175,000	£175	£26.27	£148.84

 

[Cruyff]

19 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Thanks for expanding on your thoughts, Cruyff.  Mine in maroon.   👍  

Fair enough.

 

1) We never challenged the resolution.

2) ditto

3) That is why we should take them to court because reconstruction isn't going to happen and we should not allow it to happen with two more OF teams in Scottish football. 

4) yep, we'd get promoted no bother. 

5) ditto

 

6) It's two different cases though. 

 

One is CAS which relates to the demotion. The other is Court of Session which relates to our business interests. 

 

If we don't win the CAS one then would we be able to take them to Court for the loss of revenue?

I don't think so. 

Bare in mind UEFA allowed associations to make these decisions and we did not challenge the outcome of the resolution at the time. That imo has affected our case. 

 

Or, do we go straight to Court of Session as Hearts business v SPFL business ? 

We might not be able to overturn the demotion but they may be forced to compensate us. That could also force their hand into pushing through reconstruction. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Cruyff

[Lone Striker]

16 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Fair enough.

 

1) We never challenged the resolution.   It was an SPFL Executive Board resolution - you can't "challenge" that .....all you can do is vote against it, which we did.

2) ditto

3) That is why we should take them to court because reconstruction isn't going to happen and we should not allow it to happen with two more OF teams in Scottish football.   Our options should become clearer tomorrow.

4) yep, we'd get promoted no bother.    Hearts seldom do "no bother"  !!

5) ditto  Not sure what you mean.

 

6) It's two different cases though. David McCaig would be able to comment on that, much better than me.

 

One is CAS which relates to the demotion. The other is Court of Session which relates to our business interests. 

 

If we don't win the CAS one then would we be able to take them to Court for the loss of revenue?

I don't think so. 

Bare in mind UEFA allowed associations to make these decisions and we did not challenge the outcome of the resolution at the time. That imo has affected our case. 

 

Or, do we go straight to Court of Session as Hearts business v SPFL business ? 

We might not be able to overturn the demotion but they may be forced to compensate us. That could also force their hand into pushing through reconstruction. 

👍

Edited June 9, 2020 by Lone Striker

[sac]

Delay, delay, delay. Dungcaster, MacLennan, & the SPFL are playing a blinder in letting this drag on till they can get a start date for the premier to start.

She should be rattling the sabres now re the clubs intention to start court proceedings.

What happened in Belgium/France is nothing compared to the corruption that took place here.

[Deevers]

Court would be my preferred choice. I want to make sure this sort of thing never ever happens again. To my mind the only way to make sure that won’t happen is to endure that all the facts are out in the open in the public domain for all to see. That way the guilty are outed and proper compensation is paid out. 

[1953]

We have to be happy (imo) with reconstruction if it's there as there's no guarantee that we would win a court case, but if there's no reconstruction then we must take our chances in court.

[kila]

Reconstruction now.

 

I think there'll be a growing appetite for some governance change, especially from the clubs that voted for an independent inquiry. The SPFL are walking a fine line in their future endeavours now they have set so many precedents.

 

[Shanks]

I would be happier with going to court.  I would rather kill off a few of the clubs that voted to send us down. 

[NLTFTh]

Court for me, way too many tin pot amateur so called football clubs exist in our country.

It's now time for  these self centred big mouthed barstewards to be shutup for eternity. 

I shall await what happens over the coming days, if we go down we shall be back.. 

Not an eyelid shall be batted when they start going tits up... 

HHGH

FTh/gFA

[JamboAl]

4 hours ago, Cruyff said:

That's why we should have taken them to court already. 

Without suggesting viable alternatives?

Not good tactics to play your ace too soon.

[Cruyff]

@JamboAl yes. We didn't need to. Reconstruction is an attempt to avoid legal action. 

It will be interesting to see if she follows through on legal action when reconstruction talks fail again. 

 

[Scottie Wanshot.]

8 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Trying to gauge opinion on JKB, as to preferred outcome from the reconstruction proposals, or chasing the SPFL through the court.

 

On the one hand it’s a guaranteed save for us if reconstruction goes through, but on the other we could maybe expose all the corruption and the underhand shenanigans that have gone on. Maybe a chance to rip it all down and build something better and fairer?
 

Would you prefer the divisions to be reconstructed and HMFC to be put back in the Premiership?

Or would you rather HMFC took the SPFL to court?

take it to court, and we will win.

[andi17]

3 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Voted court.

 

If we get reconstruction fine but weegia, chairmen of other clubs, fans, pundits etc...will continue to lay into us, they will be all over us with blinkers on about us begging to stay up, how lucky we were, how we would have went bust, how we deserved relegation, how we bribed the vote with our benefactor etc...etc...etc... endless drivel for years.

 

Go to court and a few hoops will crash......simple......be burn the house down and survive.......NEVER forget how we have been treated.

This BIG TIME if we stay up because of reconstruction we will get royally shafted week after week it'll be a Miko x 100s

[JamboAl]

37 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

@JamboAl yes. We didn't need to. Reconstruction is an attempt to avoid legal action. 

It will be interesting to see if she follows through on legal action when reconstruction talks fail again. 

 

I have already said that we need to have it in black and white from the SFA/SPFL before we talk any more about recon and then it matters not whether talks fail or succeed - we will be in the top tier.

No confirmation in black and white then it's off to court we go.

[Deevers]

Just get to court on Thursday  morning and watch the blind panic set in. I think quite a few if these numpties have been sitting quite smugly thinking we are bluffing. Time to lay the four aces in the table and watch the synchronised spewing. 

[Monsignor]

Reconstruction, all day long!

[Jambof3tornado]

Reconstruction but would love to drag this through the courts just to expose some of the shenanigans.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Reconstruction. Doesn't matter how confident we are of winning court case, there is no guarantee we will win. We believe we have good case, QC's believe we have good case but no-one can be 100% sure of result.

 

Lets get reconstruction sorted and make sure we take out our unhappiness on the other clubs next time we play.

[Billybuffjaw]

9 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Trying to gauge opinion on JKB, as to preferred outcome from the reconstruction proposals, or chasing the SPFL through the court.

 

On the one hand it’s a guaranteed save for us if reconstruction goes through, but on the other we could maybe expose all the corruption and the underhand shenanigans that have gone on. Maybe a chance to rip it all down and build something better and fairer?
 

Would you prefer the divisions to be reconstructed and HMFC to be put back in the Premiership?

Or would you rather HMFC took the SPFL to court?

Anyone wanting us to go to court over reconstruction isn't the full shilling., or a Hibs supporter.

[OldGorgie]

7 minutes ago, Billybuffjaw said:

Anyone wanting us to go to court over reconstruction isn't the full shilling., or a Hibs supporter.

Great explanation.  Some might say,  Best to leave thinking to others

[Jambo Mac]

Reconstruction definitely. Only losers in this whole mess will be hibs by around £100K

[Scunnered One]

I wish the poll had a 'neither' option - I think both suggestions are fruitless and we are resigned to our fate.

 

I have stated before - I will be unhappy if my (nominal funds contributed) are spent on futile legal cases. I'm probably in a minority of one, but I've resigned myself to a season in the lower league.

 

This reconstruction talk is mere bluster - 11/1 vote or whatever is never going to garner support and a legal challenge is a pretty much a non-starter.

 

What a f'in mess.

[Marvin]

If it's only the 2 options then reconstruction without the uglies B teams, they can GTF

 

[HMFC01]

12 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Trying to gauge opinion on JKB, as to preferred outcome from the reconstruction proposals, or chasing the SPFL through the court.

 

On the one hand it’s a guaranteed save for us if reconstruction goes through, but on the other we could maybe expose all the corruption and the underhand shenanigans that have gone on. Maybe a chance to rip it all down and build something better and fairer?
 

Would you prefer the divisions to be reconstructed and HMFC to be put back in the Premiership?

Or would you rather HMFC took the SPFL to court?

 

I don't like the way Hearts have had their name dragged through the mud, not only from this shambles but sometime before shit's been getting pinged at us and I don't like it. 

 

It was a hard vote!  I do want Hearts back where they should be, I just don't like the way it's being formulated.  Bunch of so and so's!

[Cut The Crap]

Staying in the top league is the first and only priority. 

[JamboAl]

4 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Reconstruction. Doesn't matter how confident we are of winning court case, there is no guarantee we will win. We believe we have good case, QC's believe we have good case but no-one can be 100% sure of result.

 

Lets get reconstruction sorted and make sure we take out our unhappiness on the other clubs next time we play.

No one is guaranteed to win any case in court but on the balance of probability I strongly fancy our chances.

However, I don't think it will get that far because (in no particular order)

1. The SPFL will not want The Dundee vote brought up in open court.  Imagine Donkey being cross examined trying to persuade a judge.. 

2,  They organised a review in secret  and, lo and behold, it found they had done no wrong.  Well I never!

3. The French and Belgian cases strengthen our hand.

4. The SPFL have a duty of care to all clubs and distinctly failed with us, Stranraer and particularly Partick.  They left 3 clubs stranded to bear the pain caused by Covid 19 with no hint of compensation.

5.  They tried to scare Hearts into  forgetting about a legal case as the costs would fall on the rest of the clubs ie the same clubs who sought to sink us.

[Jamstomorrow]

I don't know if the question has been asked anywhere before, but what would happen if HMFC took the case to Court and heaven forbid, lost!   How much could that cost the club? I assume there would be Court costs and the expenses due to other teams lawyers defending their respective causes?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

37 minutes ago, Jamstomorrow said:

I don't know if the question has been asked anywhere before, but what would happen if HMFC took the case to Court and heaven forbid, lost!   How much could that cost the club? I assume there would be Court costs and the expenses due to other teams lawyers defending their respective causes?

It would still be less than the cost of expulsion.

[Kenbo]

16 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Sorry - but that's not true.  Ann's efforts and the threat of our court action (plus the Belgian and French court cases) have shown that we will not  accept  what the SPFL have done, and there is now considerable pressure on them to rectify the wrong by forcing through a reconstruction   ...... before we get a court to do it.

 

I said it's how I would feel! If we accept reconstruction, then regardless of the French and Belgian court cases and their respective outcomes; I feel that we would be accepting the end result of the previous season which was wrong. Nothing true or untrue about it - it's how I feel!

 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

Court

 

Both though

[JimKongUno]

I voted for court because the season is a foregone conclusion before its even started, its getting boring. at least with court there's a bit of excitement and speculation about who will win

[Jamstomorrow]

5 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

It would still be less than the cost of expulsion.

But losing their case would mean Hearts were still expelled, thereby incurring the costs of demotion AND whatever Court penalties were made against them?

[chrisyboy7]

I just don't het why people want court more than reconstruction lol. Are we just as bitter as the rest of the tin pot clubs....I hope not. We should be playing in the top league as legally cant be demoted but if we are then fine. Then we can seek compensation like any other business that feels it's been mistreated.

Reconstruction 100% but I feel it's not going to happen. To many clubs simply dont like us and I've no idea why

Also why do the small clubs that are basically part ti.e gave a say on what the bigger more professional clubs do? Makes no sence. 

[Werner Herzog]

A bit of both.

 

If the French & Belgian courts have deemed relegation unlawful in their respective countries, we need to try & do the same. Forcing the SPFL's hand into reconstruction of 14/10/10/10 seems the most sensible & least destructive option. I do worry though that the ludicrous voting structure might harm the legal case though.

[highlandjambo3]

14 hours ago, Billybuffjaw said:

Anyone wanting us to go to court over reconstruction isn't the full shilling., or a Hibs supporter.

Is that isn’t the full shilling and isn’t a hibs supporter?
 

Can you pick the sentence below that indicated something was done:

 

1.  I did nothing.

2.  I didn’t do anything.

3.  I didn’t do nothing.