SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[ericb]

1 minute ago, graygo said:

 

You chosen to ignore this part of the link you provided.

 

"You are allowed to take part in volunteer work while you are furloughed, as well as training, so long as the work does not provide services to or generate revenue for, or on behalf of your organisation."

 

Now tell me how they can't train.

That is you being trained, ie you are the trainee being shown how to do something, football training is something quite different 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

How many top flight clubs have a women’s’ team? 
 

I suspect the club in question is Motherwell.

 

Hibs.... 😎

[vegas-voss]

Ok worst comes to the worst and we end up forced into an 18 game season.What if come January these wee clubs decide again they cant play then what.Its amazing how so much bending can be done now but couldnt a few weeks ago.

[JamboAl]

15 minutes ago, Gmcjambo said:

Yeah,   I think she was being clever alluding to Hearts being in a unique position to help (2 tunnels, 2 sets of changing rooms and hybrid pitch),  and offering to help at no cost.   Clearly that goes out the window if we're dumped on and have to look after no. 1. 

I agree but I don't think she said "at no cost".

Did she not she not say on a "no profit" basis which I interpreted as meaning the lessees would cover the costs but we would not charge beyond that?

[true-jambo]

On 26/05/2020 at 20:36, true-jambo said:

She is saying the top league needs Hearts more than the championship does, and that the championship need Patrick more than Division 1. Or put another way the best way to protect Scottish football for the future at this time of crisis is by keeping clubs at a level they can best contribute to that aim.

This was my post following publication of the proposal on Tuesday, I think it still stands and Spence like others have taken it at face value. Having said that I would agree that it could and probably ought to have been put in less personal terms in naming both clubs, as that was always going to provide ammunition for the hard of thinking who see this as only being a vehicle for saving Hearts.

 

Every comment I have read regarding this element of her paper only ever mentions the Hearts reference and not the Partick part, as have most comments regarding her paper in general recommending reconstruction, take Jim McInally as one example. That is why this issue ought to have been researched and a solution submitted by the SPFL and not a member club. I realise it is ridiculous to expect the board of the SPFL to provide a pragmatic response to this crisis, when members of the board are club representatives who are incapable making an objective decision because they only think subjectively.

[GinRummy]

10 minutes ago, ericb said:

That is you being trained, ie you are the trainee being shown how to do something, football training is something quite different 

It doesn’t generate income though. That’s key to the spirit of furlough and what can and can’t be done. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by GinRummy

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

7 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Ok worst comes to the worst and we end up forced into an 18 game season.What if come January these wee clubs decide again they cant play then what.Its amazing how so much bending can be done now but couldnt a few weeks ago.

If we are forced into a 18 game season we win a bucketload of compensation for restraint of trade.

[Fozzyonthefence]

9 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

You chosen to ignore this part of the link you provided.

 

"You are allowed to take part in volunteer work while you are furloughed, as well as training, so long as the work does not provide services to or generate revenue for, or on behalf of your organisation."

 

Now tell me how they can't train.

I think you’re misinterpreting the meaning of the word training and it isnt voluntary in respect to a footballer’s contract, it’s part of their normal working day but looks like it needs government clarification.  We’re all just speculating but if I had to put money it I’d put it on footballers training with their clubs would constitute working and wouldn’t be allowed.  But I don’t know and neither do you. We’ve been here before and it just goes round in circles every time someone brings it up. 

[Guess The Crowd]

19 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Yes and I though there was one other part that was just too much about Hearts.  I get that is the main priority but if want people to start believing it is about saving Scottish football and not just self preservation she really does need a better editor rather than coming across as if it had only had a spell check. 

 

Sure, but going back to the other point, let’s not forget the disgrace, that she, rather than Doncaster, is the one doing this.

 

That in turn goes back to the core point. For all this talk about how many teams can play how many games next season, that remains a secondary point. 

 

The main point is the original resolution that was put in front of the clubs, effectively including Hearts expulsion.

 

That remains a disgrace,  though she very diplomatically in her interview called it a ‘mistake’. She’s no fool, however, and she will absolutely not lose sight of that ‘mistake’. 

[Gmcjambo]

5 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I agree but I don't think she said "at no cost".

Did she not she not say on a "no profit" basis which I interpreted as meaning the lessees would cover the costs but we would not charge beyond that?

Yes. Sorry that is what I meant,   just mis-stated it.   Was def at no profit.   Thanks

[Sooperstar]

16 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

You chosen to ignore this part of the link you provided.

 

"You are allowed to take part in volunteer work while you are furloughed, as well as training, so long as the work does not provide services to or generate revenue for, or on behalf of your organisation."

 

Now tell me how they can't train.

I would say that training in this case is a large part of their actual job, therefore would be working. You could also argue that it is providing a service to the employer. What if a player refused? Are we to assume the club would not be able to take any action?

 

It's all very grey though and I doubt the authorities would be interested in having the debate.

[parwj]

34 minutes ago, MCW1976 said:

I’ve done it again! I’ve allowed Cosgrove to get under my skin!

 

Today’s round of gleeful sneering is making this 43 year old - and somewhat balanced and contained individual - pray for the day when St J’ drop like a stone.

 

Ditto !!

[Fozzyonthefence]

3 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

It doesn’t generate income though. That’s key to the spirit of furlough and what can and can’t be done. 

It doesn’t have to generate income. You missed out the bit about benefitting the employer.  Clearly players participating in group training ground sessions in a benefit to their employer as well as being part of their contract of employment. 
 

 

[Beast Boy]

18 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Hibs.... 😎

Peruvian Ronald will bail them out... with a high interest loan.

[3fingersreid]

1 hour ago, jock _turd said:

 

That may be but that day in May 2012 he had a face like a bulldog licking piss off a nettle... he F'kn hates the Hearts!

A picture that will always be one of many happy memories of that glorious day 😀

[Fozzyonthefence]

7 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

I would say that training in this case is a large part of their actual job, therefore would be working. You could also argue that it is providing a service to the employer. What if a player refused? Are we to assume the club would not be able to take any action?

 

It's all very grey though and I doubt the authorities would be interested in having the debate.

Of course it’s contractual.  Players get fined for not turning up to training sessions. If it wasn’t contractual they wouldn’t be able to fine them.  The government guidelines are a bit woolly though  - maybe we should ask Dominic Cummings what it really means. 

[Gambo]

33 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

How many top flight clubs have a women’s’ team? 
 

I suspect the club in question is Motherwell.

Aberdeen

Celtic

Dundee Utd

Hamilton

Hearts

Hibs

Kilmarnock

Motherwell

Rangers

St.Johnstone

Edited May 30, 2020 by Gambo

[GinRummy]

6 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

It doesn’t have to generate income. You missed out the bit about benefitting the employer.  Clearly players participating in group training ground sessions in a benefit to their employer as well as being part of their contract of employment. 
 

 

I didn’t miss it out (not deliberately anyway)  I just can’t recall it.  I have staff on furlough and took a note of this bit - which is permitted as long as it doesn’t involve them in providing services to, or generating revenue for or on behalf of their organisation. 
 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by GinRummy

[GinRummy]

4 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Of course it’s contractual.  Players get fined for not turning up to training sessions. If it wasn’t contractual they wouldn’t be able to fine them.  The government guidelines are a bit woolly though  - maybe we should ask Dominic Cummings what it really means. 

It’s not work though. It’s preparing for work. If all football players done was train nobody would make any money ever. 

[JamboAl]

19 minutes ago, Gmcjambo said:

Yes. Sorry that is what I meant,   just mis-stated it.   Was def at no profit.   Thanks

If we are out of the top league I hope that changes   After each game the dressing-rooms etc will require a deep clean.  She should be looking at hiring companies with the most outrageous charges and then on top of that we need a mark-up.

The (non-profit) offer should only be for the use of the actual football facilities and should not include free parking eg behind the Wheatfield and there should be a charge for the use of our catering facilities.

Don't think that is unreasonable.

Edited May 30, 2020 by JamboAl

[Boof]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

I wonder what patronising, snide, anti-Hearts garbage Cosgrove will come out with today

 

I got to it late, heard about 2 minutes worth and ended up emailing the programme to tell them they'd just lost a listener solely due to Cosgrove. 

 

I'll just have to rely on JKB for OtB updates  

[JimmyCant]

1 hour ago, David McCaig said:

We couldn’t go to court to challenge Malary Martin’s crazy yellow against Motherwell a few years ago, as the SFA are the appropriate arbiter in that case.

 

However Company Law and Restriction of Trade sits firmly within the sphere of the Court of Session.

 

An absolute nonsense of a story by The Sun... quelle surprise!!

It’s not entirely nonsense. It’s an actual rule we have signed up to and it’s possible they, FIFA, could take action. However they’ve only intervened twice in nearly 10 years using this rule and no one was expelled in either case. I’m sure it’s something we are aware of and calculated the risk of. 

[Beast Boy]

5 minutes ago, Gambo said:

Aberdeen

Dundee Utd

Hamilton

Hibs

Kilmarnock

Motherwell

St.Johnstone

Took out the obvious ones, that definitely aren’t going to be the club in question. Doubt it’s Aberdeen or Hibs either. That leaves:

 

Dundee United

Hamilton

Kilmarnock

Motherwell

St Johnstone

 

Think there has been whispers about St Johnstone, Dundee United, Hamilton and Motherwell being in financial bother in the media recently. Could easily be more than one or all of those clubs.

[3fingersreid]

37 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

How many top flight clubs have a women’s’ team? 
 

I suspect the club in question is Motherwell.

Hearts

hibs

motherwell

rangers

celtic 

forfar

killie

partick ( thistle weir)

hamilton

aberdeen

st johnstone 

d utd

that I can think off , hopefully it’s hamilton  that are struggling , in all ways financially 

 

rangers and celtic are paying some of the women £18k and upwards a season 

Edited May 30, 2020 by 3fingersreid

[Heartsmad1874]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s not entirely nonsense. It’s an actual rule we have signed up to and it’s possible they, FIFA, could take action. However they’ve only intervened twice in nearly 10 years using this rule and no one was expelled in either case. I’m sure it’s something we are aware of and calculated the risk of. 

Not up to date with all things French football but don’t think the three of those threatening action have been met with a revoke of their license threat.

[Beast Boy]

Just now, 3fingersreid said:

Hearts

hibs

motherwell

rangers

celtic 

forfar

killie

partick ( thistle weir)

hamilton

aberdeen

st johnstone 

that I can think off , hopefully it’s hamilton  that are struggling , in all ways financially 

 

rangers and celtic are paying some of the women £18k and upwards a season 

Due to recent actions and words, there’s not many clubs on that list who I’d feel sorry for.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

4 minutes ago, Heartsmad1874 said:

Not up to date with all things French football but don’t think the three of those threatening action have been met with a revoke of their license threat.

Indeed. It's a bullshit argument.

[ToadKiller Dog]

3 minutes ago, Heartsmad1874 said:

Not up to date with all things French football but don’t think the three of those threatening action have been met with a revoke of their license threat.

The SFA would rather we took it to the CAS in Switzerland, couldnt that possibly take longer and cost more for the spfl clubs ?.

Sounds like a desperate threat and playing to the mob , Hearts legal team will have addressed that I imagine. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I'm betting the plastic pitch crew are hurting more than most since they can't rent out their pitches for games.

 

Shame.

 

[JimmyCant]

5 minutes ago, Heartsmad1874 said:

Not up to date with all things French football but don’t think the three of those threatening action have been met with a revoke of their license threat.

No I think you are correct that so far there has been no FIFA intervention on that. FIFA probably prefer to stay out of this and turn a blind eye to that particular rule, which only really came in because of the Juventus match fixing scandal

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

The SFA would rather we took it to the CAS in Switzerland, couldnt that possibly take longer and cost more for the spfl clubs ?.

Sounds like a desperate threat and playing to the mob , Hearts legal team will have addressed that I imagine. 

Our action will be based on the vote validity, restraint of trade and the league not following its own rules and duties. Nothing there about football decisions per se.

[David McCaig]

11 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s not entirely nonsense. It’s an actual rule we have signed up to and it’s possible they, FIFA, could take action. However they’ve only intervened twice in nearly 10 years using this rule and no one was expelled in either case. I’m sure it’s something we are aware of and calculated the risk of. 

It is entirely nonsense, the SFA rule applies to footballing decisions, this is Company Law, which applies equally to the SPFL/SFA as any other company in the land.

[graygo]

48 minutes ago, ericb said:

That is you being trained, ie you are the trainee being shown how to do something, football training is something quite different 

 

Again, you've made that up. That is not in any guidelines, unless you can point me to it.

 

 

[David McCaig]

2 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Our action will be based on the vote validity, restraint of trade and the league not following its own rules and duties. Nothing there about football decisions per se.

Absolutely since when has CAS been the appropriate body to deal with Scottish Company Law?

[neilnunb]

Celtic wanting new fixtures released asap

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/52861707

[David McCaig]

7 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I'm betting the plastic pitch crew are hurting more than most since they can't rent out their pitches for games.

 

Shame.

 

Corporate hospitality also constitutes a disproportionate percentage of their match day revenue.

[JimmyCant]

4 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

It is entirely nonsense, the SFA rule applies to footballing decisions, this is Company Law, which applies equally to the SPFL/SFA as any other company in the land.

Okay mate. we agree to disagree on that

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

**** Spence. His true colours have been revealed on the back of this. 

 

He used to be a journalist I had a lot of respect for. I'd have put him in the same bracket as the likes of English in terms of not having an agenda and not really caring who he upsets in pursuit of the truth. Sadly, he seems to have went off the deep end in being nauseatingly pro Celtic. He's a Dundee Utd fan too, so I'm not really sure where its coming from. If I was being cynical the historical religious stuff probably plays some part in the background. Anyway, had to unfollow him recently. It was getting too much. 

 

If he could go back to the sort of journalist he was 5, 6 years ago he'd be worth paying attention to. Instead he seems to spend his days playing up the horde of Celtic da's online for easy likes. Pretty embarrassing he's descended into that tbh.

 

My list of journalists/pundits actually worth listening to in Scotland is English and then it gets a bit empty. Stewart is good when he's not talking about Hearts, Nevin used to be brilliantly balanced but has disappeared and I think Cosgrove as well (He's the Motherwell one right? The other guy is St Johnstone and a bitter prick). Every single other one is either an SPFL/OF lick-spittle or too stupid to offer anything meaningful.

[graygo]

39 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

I think you’re misinterpreting the meaning of the word training and it isnt voluntary in respect to a footballer’s contract, it’s part of their normal working day but looks like it needs government clarification.  We’re all just speculating but if I had to put money it I’d put it on footballers training with their clubs would constitute working and wouldn’t be allowed.  But I don’t know and neither do you. We’ve been here before and it just goes round in circles every time someone brings it up. 

 

Which is exactly what I have said to anyone who says players can't train.

I've even pointed out and posted links to different sports lawyers who can't agree on it yet some on here are adamant that they can't train. 

It will continue to go round in circles because I'm not going to stop replying if people bring it up.

[Skiba]

1 minute ago, neilnunb said:

Celtic wanting new fixtures released asap

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/52861707

 

 

This should be interesting.

[JamboGraham]

Celtic have urged the SPFL to issue the fixture calendar for the new season "as soon as possible".’

 

Why? In a normal year with zero variables the fixtures come out at the end of the 3rd week in June?

 

Usual Celtic nonsense, or a part of a strategy to allow the SPFL to respond with “Can’t, don’t know structure, don’t know dates, don’t know clubs, etc.”? Part of the effort to focus the minds of voting clubs?

 

I am probably reading way more into this than I really should...

[graygo]

35 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

It doesn’t have to generate income. You missed out the bit about benefitting the employer.  Clearly players participating in group training ground sessions in a benefit to their employer as well as being part of their contract of employment. 
 

 

 

You've just introduced group training ground sessions, that's not what this is about. Social distancing regulations stop that.

[Walter Bishop]

5 minutes ago, neilnunb said:

Celtic wanting new fixtures released asap

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/52861707

Why? fixtures arent normally released until mid June. 

[David McCaig]

Just now, JimmyCant said:

Okay mate. we agree to disagree on that

Why do you think CAS would be the relevant body to judge a case which is not about sport?

 

Go to CAS and challenge the fact that clubs cant appeal mistaken identity.

 

Go to the Court of Session as a Company subject to restraint of trade under Scottish Company Law.

 

It's pretty obvious really.

[Back to 2005]

5 minutes ago, Walter Bishop said:

Why? fixtures arent normally released until mid June. 

What Peter wants Peter gets..

[BelgeJambo]

1 minute ago, Walter Bishop said:

Why? fixtures arent normally released until mid June. 

SPFL response

We haven’t got anyone left for you to play

[buzzbomb1958]

7 minutes ago, neilnunb said:

Celtic wanting new fixtures released asap

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/52861707

They will be out tomorrow then

[Hungry hippo]

8 minutes ago, neilnunb said:

Celtic wanting new fixtures released asap

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/52861707

 

I'd hold fire with anger on this one. If they are just trying to get things moving I think we agree.

[JimmyCant]

1 minute ago, David McCaig said:

Why do you think CAS would be the relevant body to judge a case which is not about sport?

 

Go to CAS and challenge the fact that clubs cant appeal mistaken identity.

 

Go to the Court of Session as a Company subject to restraint of trade under Scottish Company Law.

 

It's pretty obvious really.

The rule is there in black and white on the FIFA and SFA websites. We’ll be well aware of the rule. We’ll have decided if it’s a problem or not already. No point going round in circles on it mate. You’ve made your point. I’ve made mine. We disagree. End of story 

[Deevers]

2 hours ago, GinRummy said:

Might be getting them mixed up but I think their stance seems to have softened a bit 

I reckon that they are being whipped into line. A couple of small concessions will be made so as it looks like they had achieved something. Let’s see how all of this pans out next week, I’m beginning  to feel just a wee bit more optimistic that something will be worked out. I’m sure though that the red tops will try to present things as Doncaster and Lawell save Hearts, Patrick and Stranraer. It would choke in the throat of the Sun in particular  to give any credit to Ann Budge.