Justin Z Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, IronJambo said: Scotland's will was not respected? Yes. 62% of the populace there voted to remain in the EU; this has always been the lynchpin of the SNP and Sturgeon complaint about the way Brexit came about. And that's without getting into Westminster running roughshod over the Sewel Convention and not involving the Scottish Parliament in matters touching devolved competencies--because devolution and the constitutional order are irreparably broken. Anyway, as regards the "will of the Scottish people" messaging--then likewise, a referendum would be held to determine if Scotland wishes to rejoin the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Yes. 62% of the populace there voted to remain in the EU; this has always been the lynchpin of the SNP and Sturgeon complaint about the way Brexit came about. And that's without getting into Westminster running roughshod over the Sewel Convention and not involving the Scottish Parliament in matters touching devolved competencies--because devolution and the constitutional order are irreparably broken. Anyway, as regards the "will of the Scottish people" messaging--then likewise, a referendum would be held to determine if Scotland wishes to rejoin the EU. Yes, she'll keep spinning that. The short and curlies of it are that it was a UK vote, not a Scottish one. "London", which is much bigger than Scotland voted to stay as well but they're not shouting on a referendum because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, IronJambo said: Yes, she'll keep spinning that. The short and curlies of it are that it was a UK vote, not a Scottish one. "London", which is much bigger than Scotland voted to stay as well but they're not shouting on a referendum because of it. Mate, what does any of that have to do with this... 37 minutes ago, IronJambo said: Leaving the EU is the excuse that's being used for Independence being Nicola's every other word. They can't gain independence and not try and join the EU immediately. ...or my reply that she's always couched it in terms of democratic will? Nothing you just posted has anything to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Mate, what does any of that have to do with this... ...or my reply that she's always couched it in terms of democratic will? Nothing you just posted has anything to do with it. My reply was relevant to your post. You're going to have spell out what your mean with "couched it". I really don't understand American terminology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, IronJambo said: My reply was relevant to your post. You're going to have spell out what your mean with "couched it". I really don't understand American terminology. No it wasn't. All I said was, Sturgeon always put her chat about Brexit in terms of (that's all "couched" means) the UK's failure to respect the democratic will of the people of Scotland. Which is true. Whether you agree with the details, whether London has a bigger population than Scotland, all of that is entirely irrelevant to her political posture/strategy, or that it is likely we would simply see a referendum on rejoining the EU, in the spirit of respecting the democratic will of the Scottish people post-Scottish independence. Edited March 31, 2020 by Justin Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 9 hours ago, IronJambo said: Yes, she'll keep spinning that. The short and curlies of it are that it was a UK vote, not a Scottish one. "London", which is much bigger than Scotland voted to stay as well but they're not shouting on a referendum because of it. Union of equals? Nah, thought not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 9 hours ago, IronJambo said: Yes, she'll keep spinning that. The short and curlies of it are that it was a UK vote, not a Scottish one. "London", which is much bigger than Scotland voted to stay as well but they're not shouting on a referendum because of it. London isn't a nation of the UK , yet, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 16 hours ago, IronJambo said: Ok, so let's say Scotland factually has no debt (I'm not convinced as it's not like they don't make up part of the government). Scotland walks away with no debt then. Nicola sticks her middle finger up to Westminster. It's a bit moot really. Scotland wants to trade with England and Wales as it makes up something like 64% of their trade. Scotland wants a share of public buildings and real estate worth hundreds of millions. Scotland wants to use the pound. For me, Scotland absolutely needs their own currency in independence or they aren't truly independent (not the Euro!). Scotland won't get any of this without taking a fair share of their rightful debt. EU membership won't happen overnight and even then it won't bring the same amount of trade that Scotland already has with England. I'd love to see ideas that make sense. If Scotland breaks away I want it to be a success. Half of the answers seem to be "we'll leave Westminster behind and then give everything we took back to Brussels". In the growth commission, it was stated that Scotland had agreed to pay £2b p/a for our share in debts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 11 hours ago, IronJambo said: Yes, she'll keep spinning that. The short and curlies of it are that it was a UK vote, not a Scottish one. "London", which is much bigger than Scotland voted to stay as well but they're not shouting on a referendum because of it. London was never an independent country, that entered in to an ‘equal union’ with a neighbour though. Or do you just see Scotland as a region of the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 12 hours ago, Justin Z said: No it wasn't. All I said was, Sturgeon always put her chat about Brexit in terms of (that's all "couched" means) the UK's failure to respect the democratic will of the people of Scotland. Which is true. Whether you agree with the details, whether London has a bigger population than Scotland, all of that is entirely irrelevant to her political posture/strategy, or that it is likely we would simply see a referendum on rejoining the EU, in the spirit of respecting the democratic will of the Scottish people post-Scottish independence. My reply is entirely valid. I'll repeat, the UK voted in the referendum. Not England, not Wales, not Northern Ireland, and not Scotland. You can break down the votes and regionalise them all you want but ultimately the "will of the people" belonged to the UK. Individuals had their say, not their constituencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, IronJambo said: My reply is entirely valid. I'll repeat, the UK voted in the referendum. Not England, not Wales, not Northern Ireland, and not Scotland. You can break down the votes and regionalise them all you want but ultimately the "will of the people" belonged to the UK. Individuals had their say, not their constituencies. Guaranteed EU membership was part of the No deal, so let's ask Scotland again if they would like to be an independent Country, as the UK you voted to stay in, is no longer available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Guaranteed EU membership was part of the No deal, so let's ask Scotland again if they would like to be an independent Country, as the UK you voted to stay in, is no longer available. I'd rather they had a referendum than went on about it for years to be honest. If they make a decent case I might even "move" back to my parents house so I can vote yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, IronJambo said: I'd rather they had a referendum than went on about it for years to be honest. If they make a decent case I might even "move" back to my parents house so I can vote yes. No the noo, Coronavirus distancing, IJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 16 minutes ago, IronJambo said: My reply is entirely valid. I'll repeat, the UK voted in the referendum. Not England, not Wales, not Northern Ireland, and not Scotland. You can break down the votes and regionalise them all you want but ultimately the "will of the people" belonged to the UK. Individuals had their say, not their constituencies. I understand what you're saying IJ but this is part of the reason for self governance so we choose our own destiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: No the noo, Coronavirus distancing, IJ. I'll come via London underground and lick all the door buttons I can see. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, IronJambo said: I'll come via London underground and lick all the door buttons I can see. 😁 Nothing changes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 hours ago, IronJambo said: My reply is entirely valid. I'll repeat, the UK voted in the referendum. Not England, not Wales, not Northern Ireland, and not Scotland. You can break down the votes and regionalise them all you want but ultimately the "will of the people" belonged to the UK. Individuals had their say, not their constituencies. The validity of your reply (solely as an argument--it at least is . . . an . . . argument) still has absolutely nothing to do with what Sturgeon's approach has always been, and its consistency in message, whether you agree with its underlying premise or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Just now, Justin Z said: The validity of your reply (solely as an argument--it at least is . . . an . . . argument) still has absolutely nothing to do with what Sturgeon's approach has always been, and its consistency in message, whether you agree with its underlying premise or not. And for what it's worth, while your argument is valid in the strictest sense, I happen to think it's simplistic, wrong, and dangerous for something as momentous as fundamental, constitutional change. It still doesn't make it less valid as a claim or premise, same as Sturgeon's consistent position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 20 minutes ago, Justin Z said: And for what it's worth, while your argument is valid in the strictest sense, I happen to think it's simplistic, wrong, and dangerous for something as momentous as fundamental, constitutional change. It still doesn't make it less valid as a claim or premise, same as Sturgeon's consistent position. It's only simplistic because it isn't a twisted version of it. The vote was simplistic. I don't have issue with her shouting for a referendum but the will of the people rhetoric is nonsense. 1.6 million voted to stay in the EU. 1 million to leave and 1.4 million weren't bothered their arse. That's 2.4 million voters that didn't vote to stay. Will of the people? She can ask for a referendum because we've left the EU. There's no need to twist it into something it's not though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, IronJambo said: It's only simplistic because it isn't a twisted version of it. The vote was simplistic. I don't have issue with her shouting for a referendum but the will of the people rhetoric is nonsense. 1.6 million voted to stay in the EU. 1 million to leave and 1.4 million weren't bothered their arse. That's 2.4 million voters that didn't vote to stay. Will of the people? She can ask for a referendum because we've left the EU. There's no need to twist it into something it's not though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 16 hours ago, IronJambo said: Joining the EU has to be a big part of an indy ref campaign. Leaving the EU is the excuse that's being used for Independence being Nicola's every other word. They can't gain independence and not try and join the EU immediately. Latest poll in Scotland I saw a few months ago put joining the EU at 73%, up 10 points from the ref in 2016. As you live in England you probably missed this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Imagine the state of scotland had it gone independent in 2014 with its wildly exhadurated value of oil in our economy. We have been able to bail ourselves out of this mess and save lots of jobs with UK government cash. I would dread to think what the borrowing power of a country that wasnt even going to control it's own currency would have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Anybody pointing to the UK's response to this crisis as a positive in this debate is truly a lost cause Take your L and get creative thinking of something else, for everyone's sake, but mostly your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said: Imagine the state of scotland had it gone independent in 2014 with its wildly exhadurated value of oil in our economy. We have been able to bail ourselves out of this mess and save lots of jobs with UK government cash. I would dread to think what the borrowing power of a country that wasnt even going to control it's own currency would have been. Not disagreeing with what you are saying regarding an independent nation v the uk as I’ve no idea how that would’ve worked. I would say the bail out will lead to a serious recession which will inevitably lead to more needing state aid and higher rates of taxation across the board. Wonder how an independent Scotland would compare to the uk under these circumstances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, GinRummy said: Not disagreeing with what you are saying regarding an independent nation v the uk as I’ve no idea how that would’ve worked. I would say the bail out will lead to a serious recession which will inevitably lead to more needing state aid and higher rates of taxation across the board. Wonder how an independent Scotland would compare to the uk under these circumstances? I think the bail out was the correct course of action though. There would have been a lot of resentment had the government stopped businesses trading then watched them go under not offering any support. I think people will now change the way they live to, lots live one pay day to the next and I think they will have had a fright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Anybody pointing to the UK's response to this crisis as a positive in this debate is truly a lost cause Take your L and get creative thinking of something else, for everyone's sake, but mostly your own. What response would you have preffered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said: I think the bail out was the correct course of action though. There would have been a lot of resentment had the government stopped businesses trading then watched them go under not offering any support. I think people will now change the way they live to, lots live one pay day to the next and I think they will have had a fright. I agree the bailout was 100% the way to go. I was more thinking of the future, after we get back to ‘normal’. During previous recessions a Tory government and its policies have failed to adequately protect anybody suffering economic hardship or the most vulnerable in society, preferring instead to cut back on services. At the same time they’ve tended to lower taxes in an attempt to boost the economy. I’m no SNP fan but I think I’d prefer the opposite or at least a better balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 39 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said: Imagine the state of scotland had it gone independent in 2014 with its wildly exhadurated value of oil in our economy. We have been able to bail ourselves out of this mess and save lots of jobs with UK government cash. I would dread to think what the borrowing power of a country that wasnt even going to control it's own currency would have been. Where is Boris Johnson getting all this new money pal? Where is this "magic money tree forest" that previously didn't exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Where is Boris Johnson getting all this new money pal? Where is this "magic money tree forest" that previously didn't exist? I’d imagine a large proportion of it will come from issuing gilts. Institutional and large investors will be majorly rebalancing their portfolios and seek shelter from equity markets in safer bonds. Don’t know for certain though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Where is Boris Johnson getting all this new money pal? Where is this "magic money tree forest" that previously didn't exist? Psst . . . it was always there. Austerity is a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 15 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Where is Boris Johnson getting all this new money pal? Where is this "magic money tree forest" that previously didn't exist? You obviously didn't read my post did you? Your lost cause there is really no point in any adult trying to converse with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Lighter Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 I see $125bn has been wiped off the Norwegian oil fund since the virus crash. I'm sure they'll be fine though, those canny Norwegians managed to double their fund to $1tn since the oil price crash in 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, GinRummy said: I’d imagine a large proportion of it will come from issuing gilts. Institutional and large investors will be majorly rebalancing their portfolios and seek shelter from equity markets in safer bonds. Don’t know for certain though. Yup. More Government debt. 1 hour ago, Justin Z said: Psst . . . it was always there. Austerity is a lie. "You have to fix the roof while the sun shines" Whilst killing an estimated 130,000 people. 54 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said: You obviously didn't read my post did you? Your lost cause there is really no point in any adult trying to converse with you. Do you know what a bond or a gilt is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 19 minutes ago, Felix Lighter said: I see $125bn has been wiped off the Norwegian oil fund since the virus crash. I'm sure they'll be fine though, those canny Norwegians managed to double their fund to $1tn since the oil price crash in 2014. Better together though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Form Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said: Where is Boris Johnson getting all this new money pal? Where is this "magic money tree forest" that previously didn't exist? There ain't no new money - it's all being borrowed or printed. Apparently it's OK for the UK to go into massive debt but Scotland wouldn't be able to do that because it's too wee and poor and cravenly dependent on England etc, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Yup. More Government debt. "You have to fix the roof while the sun shines" Whilst killing an estimated 130,000 people. Do you know what a bond or a gilt is? Yes I do. The fact my post went on to talk about borrowing power would imply that's what I was referring to. Sorry for not being obvious enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, S Form said: There ain't no new money - it's all being borrowed or printed. Apparently it's OK for the UK to go into massive debt but Scotland wouldn't be able to do that because it's too wee and poor and cravenly dependent on England etc, etc... These Tory's have done pretty well in their promise to bring this down too. 😉 Edited April 1, 2020 by Space Mackerel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said: These Tory's have done pretty well in their promise to bring this down too. 😉 Would you have preffered the government do nothing to protect salaries and the economy? What would have been your solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, S Form said: There ain't no new money - it's all being borrowed or printed. Apparently it's OK for the UK to go into massive debt but Scotland wouldn't be able to do that because it's too wee and poor and cravenly dependent on England etc, etc... The UK is the worlds 6th largest economy. France have borrowed similar amounts to money to help save jobs over there. Scotland has a failing oil industry and the SNP weren't fussed about having their own currency. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: These Tory's have done pretty well in their promise to bring this down too. 😉 Did they say they’d bring the debt down. I heard them saying they’d bring the deficit down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said: Would you have preffered the government do nothing to protect salaries and the economy? What would have been your solution? They could've invested in the economy before this pandemic instead of giving tax cuts to their uber rich pals, tax dodgers and party funders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Just now, Space Mackerel said: They could've invested in the economy before this pandemic instead of giving tax cuts to their uber rich pals, tax dodgers and party funders. In what way should they have invested? Really keen to here you expert insight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, GinRummy said: Did they say they’d bring the debt down. I heard them saying they’d bring the deficit down. Who knows what they mean. They're a bunch of lying charlatans pal. I despise these over privileged public schoolboy wankers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said: The UK is the worlds 6th largest economy. France have borrowed similar amounts to money to help save jobs over there. Scotland has a failing oil industry and the SNP weren't fussed about having their own currency. Go figure. Surely if Scotland were to gain independence now we’d seek to join the eu and adopt the euro. The currency situation has changed given brexit I’d have thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Just now, Space Mackerel said: Who knows what they mean. They're a bunch of lying charlatans pal. I despise these over privileged public schoolboy wankers. I get confused with it all tbh. The whole austerity thing seemed like a load of shite to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said: In what way should they have invested? Really keen to here you expert insight By doing what they were going to do in their win at the end of 2019. Start building homes, better public services, better roads etc. They won't be doing that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, GinRummy said: Surely if Scotland were to gain independence now we’d seek to join the eu and adopt the euro. The currency situation has changed given brexit I’d have thought. Given the time it would take to join the EU and euro zone would we then be left in limbo without a currency? Joining the EU would take the best part of a decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Harriott Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said: By doing what they were going to do in their win at the end of 2019. Start building homes, better public services, better roads etc. They won't be doing that now. And that would have mitigated the country being shut down for 12 weeks would it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 14 minutes ago, S Form said: There ain't no new money - it's all being borrowed or printed. Apparently it's OK for the UK to go into massive debt but Scotland wouldn't be able to do that because it's too wee and poor and cravenly dependent on England etc, etc... There are doubts that we’d be able to borrow money as easily as the uk though. Also, Nicola sturgeon had to apologise for the snp lying about oil revenues during the ast independence campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Form Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said: The UK is the worlds 6th largest economy. France have borrowed similar amounts to money to help save jobs over there. Scotland has a failing oil industry and the SNP weren't fussed about having their own currency. Go figure. So Scotland is a significant part of the world's sixth largest economy but wouldn't be able to make its way in the world as an independent country. Is that what you're saying? Or is your argument that Scotland - in its current status as part of the UK – is an economic basket case that only survives because of the largesse of the rUK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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