The fall of unionism.

[IronJambo]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Mate, youre a royal pain in the arse!

 

Your first line of your last post suggested that we rely on Westminster for jobs! Does Ireland? 

 

HS2 coming any further north than Manchester then??? NAW! so how does it benefit someone in Forfar?

 

If you support the union, you support the tories as thats who little englanders vote for. They vote for them, we get them!

 

Your a lost cause. Move on.

I didn't suggest Scotland relies on Westminster for jobs at all, you can't put words in my mouth and get upset with me about it.

 

HS2 will go further than Manchester. It'll reach the North of Scotland. Only a moron tries to build too much in one go. See Edinburgh trams for example.

 

Continue to get upset and throw insults, you clearly have no rational argument. It's OK to want independence for the romance and because you want your freedom, I wanted that when I was a bairn as well. It's OK to hate Englanders because they hurt your ancestors hundreds of years ago.

[ri Alban]

15 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

I didn't suggest Scotland relies on Westminster for jobs at all, you can't put words in my mouth and get upset with me about it.

 

HS2 will go further than Manchester. It'll reach the North of Scotland. Only a moron tries to build too much in one go. See Edinburgh trams for example.

 

Continue to get upset and throw insults, you clearly have no rational argument. It's OK to want independence for the romance and because you want your freedom, I wanted that when I was a bairn as well. It's OK to hate Englanders because they hurt your ancestors hundreds of years ago.

HS2 , really? Why don't they build from the North of Scotland and the North of England and meet up at the same time as London to Manchester? Because it's not happening past Manchester. There may be some rail upgrades for everyone else, but that's it. 

Anyway, HS whatever number will be obsolete when it's finished, as the world will be in something that makes it look like steam power.

Edited March 31, 2020 by ri Alban

[IronJambo]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

HS2 , really? Why don't they build from the North of Scotland and the North of England and meet up at the same time as London to Manchester? Because it's not happening past Manchester. Their may be some rail upgrades for everyone else, but that's it. 

Anyway, HS whatever number will be obsolete when it's finished, as the world will be in something that makes it look like steam power.

And that's exactly what we have right now. Pishy 125mph limits whilst the French can reach 357mph and the Chinese and Japanese are flying around on levitating trains. If it doesn't start somewhere it doesn't lead anywhere. It won't end in Manchester. 

[IronJambo]

If you want something like that to work it also has to start where there are actually people. Like it or not, there are only 2 metropolis' in the UK and it's going to connect them first. Connect a few hundred thousand people to start or 15 million? The best accountant in the world couldn't make a case to start it from Edinburgh to Newcastle.

[Pans Jambo]

19 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

I didn't suggest Scotland relies on Westminster for jobs at all, you can't put words in my mouth and get upset with me about it.

 

HS2 will go further than Manchester. It'll reach the North of Scotland. Only a moron tries to build too much in one go. See Edinburgh trams for example.

 

Continue to get upset and throw insults, you clearly have no rational argument. It's OK to want independence for the romance and because you want your freedom, I wanted that when I was a bairn as well. It's OK to hate Englanders because they hurt your ancestors hundreds of years ago.

So why mention jobs? You suggested there wouldnt be any if we were independent. Dont tip toe. Just say what you mean. If we leave Westminster and theres no jobs then by simple deduction, you think staying means they supply the work. Or do we just fall apart as a nation if we dont have Boris to look after us?

 

HS2. Sorry but you are disillusion if you think it'll go any further North than Leeds and probably not even that far.

 

Crack on.

[ri Alban]

14 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

And that's exactly what we have right now. Pishy 125mph limits whilst the French can reach 357mph and the Chinese and Japanese are flying around on levitating trains. If it doesn't start somewhere it doesn't lead anywhere. It won't end in Manchester. 

I don't disagree, but money talks and I think HS might be scrapped post virus. Or????? They could build right across the countries to kick start the economy.

Edited March 31, 2020 by ri Alban

[IronJambo]

3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

So why mention jobs? You suggested there wouldnt be any if we were independent. Dont tip toe. Just say what you mean. If we leave Westminster and theres no jobs then by simple deduction, you think staying means they supply the work. Or do we just fall apart as a nation if we dont have Boris to look after us?

 

HS2. Sorry but you are disillusion if you think it'll go any further North than Leeds and probably not even that far.

 

Crack on.

You're misquoting me. You said you won't be paying for x, y, and z. The previous White paper based the economy on having copious amounts of very expensive oil and not having to pay for what you mentioned. It's great to cut costs but there is only cheap oil left and with a future of electric and hydrogen cars it can't be expected that oil will ever be a magic money tree long term (whilst it isn't even that right now). People certainly won't be employed building railways or in power stations will they?

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, IronJambo said:

You're misquoting me. You said you won't be paying for x, y, and z. The previous White paper based the economy on having copious amounts of very expensive oil and not having to pay for what you mentioned. It's great to cut costs but there is only cheap oil left and with a future of electric and hydrogen cars it can't be expected that oil will ever be a magic money tree long term (whilst it isn't even that right now). People certainly won't be employed building railways or in power stations will they?

So you think Alex's white paper is the future road map for Scottish prosperity built on oil?

 

OK then.

 

Crack-on

[East Lothian Jambo]

10 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

I don’t think the comparison stands up well, there’s more instances of Unionists bad behaviour than the SNP but far less all told than what happens at Westminster.

You sure about that 

 

Interesting times ahead for the SNP. Perhaps infighting is their biggest challenge rather than political opponents 

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, East Lothian Jambo said:

You sure about that 

 

Interesting times ahead for the SNP. Perhaps infighting is their biggest challenge rather than political opponents 

Perhaps but theres no infighting in any other party in these isles???

[IronJambo]

8 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

So you think Alex's white paper is the future road map for Scottish prosperity built on oil?

 

OK then.

 

Crack-on

The White paper relied very heavily on oil. It's the closest thing to a road map that we have for an independent Scotland. 

 

What's replaced the oil? Something has to fill the void for the figures to stack up. It's not very believable that there's another magic money source.

 

I'm not attacking the idea of independence. I'm just questioning the visibility of it and I'm not really getting any real answers.

[East Lothian Jambo]

11 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Perhaps but theres no infighting in any other party in these isles???

Of course there is 

 

There is a huge power struggle about to take place within SNP 

[ri Alban]

6 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

The White paper relied very heavily on oil. It's the closest thing to a road map that we have for an independent Scotland. 

 

What's replaced the oil? Something has to fill the void for the figures to stack up. It's not very believable that there's another magic money source.

 

I'm not attacking the idea of independence. I'm just questioning the visibility of it and I'm not really getting any real answers.

5% was oil based. And anyway it was the SNPs outlook on an independent Scotland, and I didn't vote for any party at Indyref.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, East Lothian Jambo said:

Of course there is 

 

There is a huge power struggle about to take place within SNP 

Like Boris ousting Theresa and Blair and Broon, Thatcher/Heath, Thatcher ousted for Major, oh and Cameron with the Brexiters.

[IronJambo]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

5% was oil based. And anyway it was the SNPs outlook on an independent Scotland, and I didn't vote for any party at Indyref.

Hmmm. I don't recall that. Was pretty sure the answered nearly every economic question with "we have oil and won't be paying for Trident".

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, IronJambo said:

Hmmm. I don't recall that. Was pretty sure the answered nearly every economic question with "we have oil and won't be paying for Trident".

Eh no.  Thou, maybe that's all what you wanted to hear.

Don't worry, I'm sure trains won't run out, post independence.

Edited March 31, 2020 by ri Alban

[IronJambo]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

Eh no.  Thou, maybe that's all what you wanted to hear.

Don't worry, I'm sure trains won't run out, post independence.

You have the figures to show it as 5%? I don't remember them showing anything as a percentage. I wanted it to show independence as viable but it didn't convince me.

[East Lothian Jambo]

11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Like Boris ousting Theresa and Blair and Broon, Thatcher/Heath, Thatcher ousted for Major, oh and Cameron with the Brexiters.

I think I was quite clear when I responded.  Of course there are issues within other parties

 

We are about to witness massive civil war within SNP. People of Scotland will continue to vote for them in droves 

 

Worse they perform domestically the more it seems to galvanise their support 

 

Hard to reason with nationalism 

[Pasquale for King]

46 minutes ago, East Lothian Jambo said:

You sure about that 

 

Interesting times ahead for the SNP. Perhaps infighting is their biggest challenge rather than political opponents 

Absolutely positive, I could list them but there’s enough time in the day to name all the paedos, junkies, expenses fiddlers and tax evaders.
There is not really that much in fighting as you and everyone else seem to forget that Salmond isn’t in the SNP anymore?!?!

[Pans Jambo]

16 minutes ago, East Lothian Jambo said:

I think I was quite clear when I responded.  Of course there are issues within other parties

 

We are about to witness massive civil war within SNP. People of Scotland will continue to vote for them in droves 

 

Worse they perform domestically the more it seems to galvanise their support 

 

Hard to reason with nationalism 

😆 Your last line made me spit my coffee out . Folk keep voting for the tories and theyre the worst thing to happen to these islands since ...well...the tories were invented!

Edited March 31, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[Pasquale for King]

16 minutes ago, East Lothian Jambo said:

I think I was quite clear when I responded.  Of course there are issues within other parties

 

We are about to witness massive civil war within SNP. People of Scotland will continue to vote for them in droves 

 

Worse they perform domestically the more it seems to galvanise their support 

 

Hard to reason with nationalism 

Change SNP to Tory, add British before Nationalism and you have summed up the UK.

[Spitonastranger]

I think what most unionists fail to grasp is that there are many people who wants independence but are not long term SNP voters. I hope when independence comes we will have a variety of parties SNP and Scottish Labour Party the Greens etc. This continuous thread from the Unionists hoping for the big fall out within the SNP party is straw clutching. Looking at tory rule for the past 10 years and the mess we are now in, the lack of leadership from a party that has had power for many years, the lack of funds for the NHS and the Police to name two. yet Unionists still try to peddle the myth that we are better together.  

[Pasquale for King]

6 minutes ago, Spitonastranger said:

I think what most unionists fail to grasp is that there are many people who wants independence but are not long term SNP voters. I hope when independence comes we will have a variety of parties SNP and Scottish Labour Party the Greens etc. This continuous thread from the Unionists hoping for the big fall out within the SNP party is straw clutching. Looking at tory rule for the past 10 years and the mess we are now in, the lack of leadership from a party that has had power for many years, the lack of funds for the NHS and the Police to name two. yet Unionists still try to peddle the myth that we are better together.  

Absolutely, as it’s been said there are many Labour supporters who want independence (the younger ones especially) and even a Tories for independence group who see the opportunities that investing in Scotland plentiful resources would bring. 

[Roxy Hearts]

Unionists are exasperating. Not one of them can come up with an original thought. Same stuff about oil, white papers, the SNP. Most of it lifted from the media. 

 

Why do Westminster want to keep Scotland if we have no resources? I don't want to hear about GERS and Barnetts! 

[jack D and coke]

17 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

😆 Your last line made me spit my coffee out . Folk keep voting for the tories and theyre the worst thing to happen to these islands since ...well...the tories were invented!

 

16 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Change SNP to Tory, add British before Nationalism and you have summed up the UK.

These. 
The irony seems completely lost on some people. 

[Space Mackerel]

It’s going to be funny watching the rise of English nationalism be the force that eventually breaks British Unionism. 

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

 

These. 
The irony seems completely lost on some people. 

True but at least theres an end in sight for the SNP. The minute Scotland in Independent they're done.  Tories are like the flu, just keep coming back.

 

And to be honest I am not surprised, this Coronavirus situation has really opened my eyes to the amount of selfish arseholes there is in the public. Gullible, Selfish, arseholes! Like tory voters really.

[XB52]

1 hour ago, IronJambo said:

I didn't suggest Scotland relies on Westminster for jobs at all, you can't put words in my mouth and get upset with me about it.

 

HS2 will go further than Manchester. It'll reach the North of Scotland. Only a moron tries to build too much in one go. See Edinburgh trams for example.

 

Continue to get upset and throw insults, you clearly have no rational argument. It's OK to want independence for the romance and because you want your freedom, I wanted that when I was a bairn as well. It's OK to hate Englanders because they hurt your ancestors hundreds of years ago.

Your last two sentences show you have absolutely no interest in keeping an open mind. Just another unionist trolling any thread mentioning independence

[Seymour M Hersh]

21 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Unionists are exasperating. Not one of them can come up with an original thought. Same stuff about oil, white papers, the SNP. Most of it lifted from the media. 

 

Why do Westminster want to keep Scotland if we have no resources? I don't want to hear about GERS and Barnetts! 

 

Makes perfect sense that a fanatical nationalist would never want to hear about economic reality.  Pipe dreams only eh?

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Makes perfect sense that a fanatical nationalist would never want to hear about economic reality.  Pipe dreams only eh?

Can't speak on behalf British nationalist fanatics. I'm Scottish though and wish to know my country's income without the cloak of Westminster falsehoods and made up figures. Bagpipe dreams though! 

[IronJambo]

34 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Your last two sentences show you have absolutely no interest in keeping an open mind. Just another unionist trolling any thread mentioning independence

The last two sentences are just showing someone that can't have rational discussion he's not the only one that can throw stones. Apologies if it offended you. 

 

Edit: and I did vote for SNP when I was 18, along with a yes vote for devolution.

 

Another edit: having a different opinion isn't trolling.

Edited March 31, 2020 by IronJambo

[GinRummy]

25 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Can't speak on behalf British nationalist fanatics. I'm Scottish though and wish to know my country's income without the cloak of Westminster falsehoods and made up figures. Bagpipe dreams though! 

It’s not just Westminster that manipulate figures to deliberately mislead voters. That’s the problem with all sides in the independence debate. They’re quite happy to tell lies in order to get what they want.  

[Space Mackerel]

Thought this thread was about the fall of Unionism? 
 

It’s pretty clear that all the figures point it’s happening. 

[Roxy Hearts]

14 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

It’s not just Westminster that manipulate figures to deliberately mislead voters. That’s the problem with all sides in the independence debate. They’re quite happy to tell lies in order to get what they want.  

That's the problem. Westminster provide nonsense and it's met with other nonsense. Let's clear it up and manage our own affairs. 

[IronJambo]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Thought this thread was about the fall of Unionism? 
 

It’s pretty clear that all the figures point it’s happening. 

Where does Bridgend voting Tory come into those figures?

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

That's the problem. Westminster provide nonsense and it's met with other nonsense. Let's clear it up and manage our own affairs. 

Not against it tbh. Fairly concerned that things won’t improve after independence though. May as well try it is my unenthusiastic answer when discussing it with friends. 

[manaliveits105]

 There is absolutely no chance of another indyref in the next 15 years 

The Kingdom is United the union safe

 

[Roxy Hearts]

9 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Not against it tbh. Fairly concerned that things won’t improve after independence though. May as well try it is my unenthusiastic answer when discussing it with friends. 

I can understand that. I've heard friends say the same thing. More coming round to thinking we could do better. It's only governance and full power I want then we can't blame anyone also a new relationship that suits all. I'm sure most in Scotland could agree that something needs to be done. 

[GinRummy]

11 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

 There is absolutely no chance of another indyref in the next 15 years 

The Kingdom is United the union safe

 

If current events teach us anything it’s that nothing is certain.

[GinRummy]

10 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I can understand that. I've heard friends say the same thing. More coming round to thinking we could do better. It's only governance and full power I want then we can't blame anyone also a new relationship that suits all. I'm sure most in Scotland could agree that something needs to be done. 

A change will come eventually. I doubt if many out there really believe we’ll stay united in the medium to long term.

[Roxy Hearts]

11 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

 There is absolutely no chance of another indyref in the next 15 years 

The Kingdom is United the union safe

 

Tell the future? Well done. The UK is not united and far from it. Young voters are the key. 

[Nucky Thompson]

When we got out of this crisis the Kingdom will be more United than ever. 

Thank God for a strong Conservative government

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, IronJambo said:

Where does Bridgend voting Tory come into those figures?

Im not sure what you mean?

[Justin Z]

6 hours ago, IronJambo said:

Scotland's debt goes further back than that my friend.

 

This isn't accurate. We've done it to death in another thread but I can dig it up if you really want me to. The basic legal gist is, Scotland hasn't had the sovereign power to create debt, therefore it's not responsible for debt. This is settled. The basic negotiating gist then becomes, Scotland can agree to take on some debt as a bargaining chip post-independence but has no obligation to do so.

 

We also looked at the white paper in some detail, and the newer Sustainable Growth Commission report and concluded neither goes as far as you claim when it comes to oil.

 

For what it's worth, I think you're bringing up reasonable concerns. I have gotten into it with indy supporters who aren't willing to answer legitimate concerns and just want to get abusive, because it not only does no favours to their cause, it actively harms the likelihood that what they want will come to pass.

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Justin Z

[ri Alban]

12 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

This isn't accurate. We've done it to death in another thread but I can dig it up if you really want me to. The basic legal gist is, Scotland hasn't had the sovereign power to create debt, therefore it's not responsible for debt. This is settled. The basic negotiating gist then becomes, Scotland can agree to take on some debt as a bargaining chip post-independence but has no obligation to do so.

 

We also looked at the white paper in some detail, and the newer Sustainable Growth Commission report and concluded neither goes as far as you claim when it comes to oil.

 

For what it's worth, I think you're bringing up reasonable concerns. I have gotten into it with indy supporters who aren't willing to answer legitimate concerns and just want to get abusive, because it not only does no favours to their cause, it actively harms the likelihood that what they want will come to pass.

 

He's probably talking about the Darien Myth of Scottish bankruptcy. When in fact the burghs were quite prosperous and the ones who sold us for English gold brought 60 + years of riots and unrest because Scotland didn't want Union with England. 

 

But hey I'm pretty sure plenty of nations will be queuing up to invest in an Independent Scotland including ruk. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by ri Alban

[jack D and coke]

11 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

This isn't accurate. We've done it to death in another thread but I can dig it up if you really want me to. The basic legal gist is, Scotland hasn't had the sovereign power to create debt, therefore it's not responsible for debt. This is settled. The basic negotiating gist then becomes, Scotland can agree to take on some debt as a bargaining chip post-independence but has no obligation to do so.

 

We also looked at the white paper in some detail, and the newer Sustainable Growth Commission report and concluded neither goes as far as you claim when it comes to oil.

 

For what it's worth, I think you're bringing up reasonable concerns. I have gotten into it with indy supporters who aren't willing to answer legitimate concerns and just want to get abusive, because it not only does no favours to their cause, it actively harms the likelihood that what they want will come to pass.

 

I’ve got a funny feeling he means about 313 years ago. 
We had to accept a large portion of England’s debts then to bail out our nobles. 

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

He's probably talking about the Darien Myth of Scottish bankruptcy. When in fact the burghs were quite prosperous and the ones who sold us for English gold brought 60 + years of riots and unrest because Scotland didn't want Union with England. 

 

But hey I'm pretty sure plenty of nations will be queuing up to invest in an Independent Scotland including ruk. 

 

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’ve got a funny feeling he means about 313 years ago. 
We had to accept a large portion of England’s debts then to bail out our nobles. 

 

Ah okay. Well, I'm pretty sure nobody's going to seriously consider that in any independence negotiations, and the Tory government's legal position is that Scotland as country ceased to exist in 1707, so there'd be no legal basis for enforcing any such debt anyway.

[ri Alban]

6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’ve got a funny feeling he means about 313 years ago. 
We had to accept a large portion of England’s debts then to bail out our nobles. 

Don't forget, the union has twice cost us trade and good relationships with Continental Europe. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by ri Alban

[Mysterion]

I have a feeling that English nationalism may end up with a press for a federal UK which will eventually result in eventual end of the Union. 

 

The rise of arrogance and general stupidity in the South will see a push to "let those Jocks get on with it" resulting in a change.

[ri Alban]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

Ah okay. Well, I'm pretty sure nobody's going to seriously consider that in any independence negotiations, and the Tory government's legal position is that Scotland as country ceased to exist in 1707, so there'd be no legal basis for enforcing any such debt anyway.

True bud, but it's always their default position when under pressure. It's funny how no-one ever mentions England’s readiness to invade if the bribes were unsuccessful.