The fall of unionism.

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Given the time it would take to join the EU and euro zone would we then be left in limbo without a currency? Joining the EU would take the best part of a decade.

What would happen if we just kept using sterling in the meantime? 

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

What would happen if we just kept using sterling in the meantime? 

We would be doing what 3rd world countries do and using a foreign currency we have no control over regarding interest rates etc.

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

We would be doing what 3rd world countries do and using a foreign currency we have no control over regarding interest rates etc.

Obviously control over interest rates are preferable but would the two countries economies differ from each other so much that interest rate changes would have a serious effect? Doubt it tbh. 

[Felix Lighter]

16 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Better together though.

 

Indeed, according to some we're supposed to be grateful to Westminster for chucking us £30bn.

Meanwhile Norway, I would imagine, will just dip into its oil fund to see them through this mess. Also, I see Norway has suggested to the UN the setting up of a contributory fund to help under developed countries deal with the corona-virus.

Amazing whats achievable if you use your resources to plan for future adversity.

Well done Norway.👏

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

2 minutes ago, Felix Lighter said:

 

Indeed, according to some we're supposed to be grateful to Westminster for chucking us £30bn.

Meanwhile Norway, I would imagine, will just dip into its oil fund to see them through this mess. Also, I see Norway has suggested to the UN the setting up of a contributory fund to help under developed countries deal with the corona-virus.

Amazing whats achievable if you use your resources to plan for future adversity.

Well done Norway.👏

 

You could always go live in Norway? Just a suggestion.

[Justin Z]

6 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Obviously control over interest rates are preferable but would the two countries economies differ from each other so much that interest rate changes would have a serious effect? Doubt it tbh. 

 

Certainly not initially. It's a weird argument anyway. Scotland already doesn't control the currency or the interest rates, the Bank of England does.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

You could always go live in Norway? Just a suggestion.

 

Or he could be politically active and advocate for the change and improvement he wants to see, rather than being a snivelling bootlicker beholden to whatever his masters tell him is best.

[Felix Lighter]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Or he could be politically active and advocate for the change and improvement he wants to see, rather than being a snivelling bootlicker beholden to whatever his masters tell him is best.

 

Nice one.

I'd have been binned for my reply.🙂

[Ainsley Harriott]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Or he could be politically active and advocate for the change and improvement he wants to see, rather than being a snivelling bootlicker beholden to whatever his masters tell him is best.

Ah resorting to personal insults. Always the nationalist way.

[Justin Z]

Just now, Ainsley Harriott said:

Ah resorting to personal insults. Always the nationalist way.

 

Oh it was nothing personal, sport. Just a general observation from a Yank. A Yank Scottish nationalist huh? I'll take it! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[Ainsley Harriott]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Oh it was nothing personal, sport. Just a general observation from a Yank. A Yank Scottish nationalist huh? I'll take it! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Your all scottish, irish or italian anyway.

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Your all scottish, irish or italian anyway.

 

True, or German. That about covers three quarters of it.

 

 Oh and . . .

 

8 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Ah resorting to personal insults. Always the nationalist way.

 

"Why don't you leave and move to X" is extremely personal, and extremely insulting. You really ought to apologise to Felix. Else it's rank hypocrisy, always the unionist way, eh?

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Justin Z

[Space Mackerel]

11 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Ah resorting to personal insults. Always the nationalist way.

 

You basically told him to **** off abroad if you don't like it here.

 

Then you complained about personal abuse.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

True, or German. That about covers three quarters of it.

 

 Oh and . . .

 

 

"Why don't you leave and move to X" is extremely personal, and extremely insulting. You really ought to apologise to Felix. Else it's rank hypocrisy, always the unionist way, eh?

 

Na I dont do apologies it's never been a very British thing to do.

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Na I dont do apologies it's never been a very British thing to do.

 

 

What an odd little person.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Na I dont do apologies it's never been a very British thing to do.

 

Rank hypocrisy it is then! Definitely the staunchest British way to be.

[Ainsley Harriott]

2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You basically told him to **** off abroad if you don't like it here.

 

Then you complained about personal abuse.

 

You never answered my question about how building more houses would have mitigated covid 19?

[S Form]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

You never answered my question about how building more houses would have mitigated covid 19?

Er... you never answered my question about your view of Scotland as an economic basket case.

[Justin Z]

Just now, S Form said:

Er... you never answered my question about your view of Scotland as an economic basket case.

 

I never answered his question about how I'd have liked to see Covid handled in the UK, to be fair.

 

The answer starts with not having lying, propaganda-spreading pseudofascists in government, something we're all too acquainted with on this side of the pond as well, and actually listening to people smarter than me who do this stuff for a living, so I just didn't think he'd be too interested.

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

I never answered his question about how I'd have liked to see Covid handled in the UK, to be fair.

 

The answer starts with not having lying, propaganda-spreading pseudofascists in government, something we're all too acquainted with on this side of the pond as well, and actually listening to people smarter than me who do this stuff for a living, so I just didn't think he'd be too interested.

The governments should speak to that Space guy on here. World renowned economic and political expert him.

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

The governments should speak to that Space guy on here. World renowned economic and political expert him.

 

It's possible. Quite possibly anything would be better than sitting around and doing nothing for weeks, then drawing up plans that go against the advice of every medical expert in the world, to get most everyone in the country infected and kill a couple million or so to create herd immunity, then continue to mismanage the situation for weeks further still.

 

So yeah, a galactic fish might do better. Then again, it might amount to six of one and half a dozen in that particular case.

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

You never answered my question about how building more houses would have mitigated covid 19?

 

Sakes. Where did I say in relation to Covid 19?

 

And here what Boris thought was acceptable to publish when editor of The Spectator.

 

The Scotch – what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they’re all over the place,

Battening off us with false bonhomie,

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It’s time Hadrian’s Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.

 

 

 

[S Form]

6 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I never answered his question about how I'd have liked to see Covid handled in the UK, to be fair.

 

The answer starts with not having lying, propaganda-spreading pseudofascists in government, something we're all too acquainted with on this side of the pond as well, and actually listening to people smarter than me who do this stuff for a living, so I just didn't think he'd be too interested.

Fair enough.

Unionism is a perfectly valid position to hold and there are very strong family, cultural and other links across the UK that reinforce it. I do, however, get pretty pissed with the 'Scottish cringe' argument against independence that implies the country is somehow uniquely incapable of standing on its own two feet when others such as Ireland, Denmark, Norway etc manage to rub along perfectly well.

And I note that my question to Ainsley has still not been answered. Must have been too hard.

[Space Mackerel]

12 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

 

So yeah, a galactic fish might do better. Then again, it might amount to six of one and half a dozen in that particular case.

 

Dunno who said it, but, "you can lay all the economists on Earth down, end to end, and they still won't reach a conclusion"

[Ainsley Harriott]

8 minutes ago, S Form said:

Fair enough.

Unionism is a perfectly valid position to hold and there are very strong family, cultural and other links across the UK that reinforce it. I do, however, get pretty pissed with the 'Scottish cringe' argument against independence that implies the country is somehow uniquely incapable of standing on its own two feet when others such as Ireland, Denmark, Norway etc manage to rub along perfectly well.

And I note that my question to Ainsley has still not been answered. Must have been too hard.

What was your question S? Must have got lost in the sea of pish posted by space guy

[Ainsley Harriott]

15 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Sakes. Where did I say in relation to Covid 19?

 

And here what Boris thought was acceptable to publish when editor of The Spectator.

 

The Scotch – what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they’re all over the place,

Battening off us with false bonhomie,

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It’s time Hadrian’s Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.

 

 

 

When you complained about them borrowing money to prop up the economy.

 

Should rename you space gold fish 

 

By doing what they were going to do in their win at the end of 2019. Start building homes, better public services, better roads etc.

 

They won't be doing that now

 

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

When you complained about them borrowing money to prop up the economy.

 

Should rename you space gold fish 

 

By doing what they were going to do in their win at the end of 2019. Start building homes, better public services, better roads etc.

 

They won't be doing that now

 

 

Except that he's absolutely correct that having a strong working and middle class instead of wage slaves propping up the riches of a few is a much better starting point from which to deal with unplanned catastrophic events, so 🤷‍♂️

[S Form]

6 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

What was your question S? Must have got lost in the sea of pish posted by space guy

You'd said that the UK was the 6th largest economy in the world. I wondered whether your argument was that Scotland, even though it has played a role in creating that 6th largest economy, was somehow incapable of making its own way in the world. Alternatively your view might be that Scotland is really an economic basket case that is supported by rUK.

 

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Just now, S Form said:

You'd said that the UK was the 6th largest economy in the world. I wondered whether your argument was that Scotland, even though it has played a role in creating that 6th largest economy, was somehow incapable of making its own way in the world. Alternatively your view might be that Scotland is really an economic basket case that is supported by rUK.

 

 

Scotland is 10% of the UK and contributed heavily during the boom years of the oil and gas industry. Scotland now runs at a huge deficit and while it continues to contribute in lots of ways a newly formed independent country would be economically weak. 

 

 

[S Form]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Scotland is 10% of the UK and contributed heavily during the boom years of the oil and gas industry. Scotland now runs at a huge deficit and while it continues to contribute in lots of ways a newly formed independent country would be economically weak. 

 

 

Sorry, don't buy that. Is it really your contention that the only period that Scotland contributed to the strength of the UK was from the 1970s to the 2000s?

 

 

[S Form]

4 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Scotland is 10% of the UK and contributed heavily during the boom years of the oil and gas industry. Scotland now runs at a huge deficit and while it continues to contribute in lots of ways a newly formed independent country would be economically weak. 

 

 

Oh, and by the way, the UK also runs a huge deficit.

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Scotland is 10% of the UK and contributed heavily during the boom years of the oil and gas industry. Scotland now runs at a huge deficit and while it continues to contribute in lots of ways a newly formed independent country would be economically weak. 

 

 

What is the size of the deficit in comparison to the uk deficit figure. That’s the number that will give an answer or close to it. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Just now, S Form said:

Sorry, don't buy that. Is it really your contention that the only period that Scotland contributed to the strength of the UK was from the 1970s to the 2000s?

 

 

I said it still contributes but not as much as then. Can you tell me why you think we would be economically stronger if independent?

[Ainsley Harriott]

8 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

What is the size of the deficit in comparison to the uk deficit figure. That’s the number that will give an answer or close to it. 

Just checked Scottish deficit last year was 14.1 billion. UK deficit was 37 billion.

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Just checked Scottish deficit last year was 14.1 billion. UK deficit was 37 billion.

 

Do yuou have a job?

[GinRummy]

Just now, Ainsley Harriott said:

Just checked Scottish deficit last year was 14.1 billion. UK deficit was 37 billion.

Aye so given the size of the two economies our deficit is huge. I’d imagine it would go against SNP policy to shrink the state, so either raise taxes, hope for an oil boom or run at a large deficit with an unknown borrowing capability?

[Roxy Hearts]

3 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Just checked Scottish deficit last year was 14.1 billion. UK deficit was 37 billion.

Why can't Westminster manage our affairs and our economy if you believe those figures? Not GERS again? 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

Aye so given the size of the two economies our deficit is huge. I’d imagine it would go against SNP policy to shrink the state, so either raise taxes, hope for an oil boom or run at a large deficit with an unknown borrowing capability?

 

Do you really believe that Scotland, being on a par with rUK and its resources is as poor as that? Why?

 

Could you explain why and when the GERS figures were introduced and by whom?

[Ainsley Harriott]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Do yuou have a job?

Yes. Do you? Apart from being a failed british solider? It was you that got booted out the army?

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Why can't Westminster manage our affairs and our economy if you believe those figures? Not GERS again? 

 

Actually, it seems Westminster CANNOT manage our economy properly if our deficit is that bad surely?

 

 

[S Form]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

I said it still contributes but not as much as then. Can you tell me why you think we would be economically stronger if independent?

Giving economic predictions is a dodgy business, but I have my doubts that the country would be economically weak. The UK economic policy as currently figured is designed to favour financial services and the City of London. It might be that an independent Scotland could re-design policy to address our own weaknesses and take advantage of strengths.

[Boris]

7 hours ago, IronJambo said:

My reply is entirely valid. I'll repeat, the UK voted in the referendum. Not England, not Wales, not Northern Ireland, and not Scotland. You can break down the votes and regionalise them all you want but ultimately the "will of the people" belonged to the UK. Individuals had their say, not their constituencies.

But that's the point! One minute we are a union of equals, next we are not.

 

And just because it was a UK vote doesn't legitimise it. Yet another example of the disregard the other equal members are treated with by Westminster.

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Ainsley Harriott said:

Yes. Do you? Apart from being a failed british solider? It was you that got booted out the army?

 

Personal abuse! 

 

Is it a decent job, above the average pay up here, £25,000?

[S Form]

8 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Just checked Scottish deficit last year was 14.1 billion. UK deficit was 37 billion.

So being part of the UK has seen our deficit balloon - should get out of it then 😉

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Do you really believe that Scotland, being on a par with rUK and its resources is as poor as that? Why?

 

Could you explain why and when the GERS figures were introduced and by whom?

I don’t know if I believe it or not. Given that Westminster politicians will tell lies to make it look like independence is a non starter and the SNP will tell lies to make it look like independence will be way better than the status quo it’s quite difficult to get to the truth.

 

Similarly, staunch supporters in either camp will dismiss anything they don’t like as pish and accept anything that supports their point of view as fact. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by GinRummy

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I don’t know if I believe it or not. Given that Westminster politicians will tell lies to make it look like independence is a non starter and the SNP will tell lies to make it look like independence will be way better than the status quo it’s quite difficult to get to the truth.

 

Similarly, staunch supporters in either camp will dismiss anything they don’t like as pish and accept anything that supports their point of view as fact. 

 

Are we a nation of dole scroungers and layabouts? Much worse than the other 3 countries?

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Space Mackerel

[GinRummy]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Are we a nation of dole scroungers and layabouts? Much worse than the other 3 countries?

Why is that an answer to my post? In answer to yours, I don’t know.

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, GinRummy said:

Why is that an answer to my post? In answer to yours, I don’t know.

 

I know its from Wikipedia but its an undeniably fact what it was created.

 

"GERS was first published in 1992 by the Scottish Office under the Conservative Party government of Prime Minister John Major, at a time when the government was resisting calls for Scottish devolution. Its overall purpose was to estimate the overall UK borrowing requirement for Scotland - it was created at this time because Scottish Office ministers thought due to then-low oil prices, the report would show Scotland gained far more from the UK Treasury than it received.^[4] In a leaked memo the then Secretary of State for Scotland Ian Lang wrote "I judge that [GERS] is just what is needed at present in our campaign to maintain the initiative and undermine the other parties. This initiative could score against all of them."

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Are we a nation of dole scroungers and layabouts? Much worse than the other 3 countries?

 

Interesting, but import and export figures are only a part of the numbers you need. As an example, rightly or wrongly, the uk government has went to great lengths to shrink the welfare state, the snp,would almost certainly expand it. 
 

Also do these figures include imports and exports from within the uk?

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I know its from Wikipedia but its an undeniably fact what it was created.

 

"GERS was first published in 1992 by the Scottish Office under the Conservative Party government of Prime Minister John Major, at a time when the government was resisting calls for Scottish devolution. Its overall purpose was to estimate the overall UK borrowing requirement for Scotland - it was created at this time because Scottish Office ministers thought due to then-low oil prices, the report would show Scotland gained far more from the UK Treasury than it received.^[4] In a leaked memo the then Secretary of State for Scotland Ian Lang wrote "I judge that [GERS] is just what is needed at present in our campaign to maintain the initiative and undermine the other parties. This initiative could score against all of them."

Damning stuff if true.