The fall of unionism.

[Justin Z]

16 minutes ago, Boris said:

But that's the point! One minute we are a union of equals, next we are not.

 

And just because it was a UK vote doesn't legitimise it. Yet another example of the disregard the other equal members are treated with by Westminster.

 

I did want to see if he'd get that the point was consistency. And that the reason his argument was simplistic was because it was--both simplistic and inconsistent--not because Sturgeon's position was twisted.

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Justin Z

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Damning stuff if true. 

 

Go and get the figures for 1991 and previously then.

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Interesting, but import and export figures are only a part of the numbers you need. As an example, rightly or wrongly, the uk government has went to great lengths to shrink the welfare state, the snp,would almost certainly expand it. 
 

Also do these figures include imports and exports from within the uk?

 

So there will be no trade after independence with England? Nothing?

 

When the UK leaves the EU, IKEA are closing down all their stores?

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Go and get the figures for 1991 and previously then.

I will do. Thanks for the pointer. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

So there will be no trade after independence with England? Nothing?

 

When the UK leaves the EU, IKEA are closing down all their stores?

I didn’t suggest that at all. I was only asking if trade between Scotland and England (and the other countries) was included or not. 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

I will do. Thanks for the pointer. 

 

Good luck pal. 😉

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I didn’t suggest that at all. I was only asking if trade between Scotland and England (and the other countries) was included or not. 

 

Does it matter? Scotland exports way more than it imports. People need goods and services etc, that won't change afterwards.

 

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx

 

Pukka HMRC website

Edited April 1, 2020 by Space Mackerel

[IronJambo]

21 minutes ago, Boris said:

But that's the point! One minute we are a union of equals, next we are not.

 

And just because it was a UK vote doesn't legitimise it. Yet another example of the disregard the other equal members are treated with by Westminster.

You voted as an individual, equal to every other individual that voted. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Does it matter? Scotland exports way more than it imports. People need goods and services etc, that won't change afterwards.

Was just trying to understand the figures. 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

Was just trying to understand the figures. 

 

What about this?

 

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

You voted as an individual, equal to every other individual that voted. 

 

For like the fourth time, this is a valid position to take, whether it's agreed with or not.

 

In 2014, pre-referendum, all the rhetoric was about being a family of equal partners and all that pish. It continues to get trotted out when convenient. Other times, it's a per head population metric, also as and when convenient.

 

This is why your repeated posts taking issue with Sturgeon's consistent position have been off the topic, which was, consistency in messaging and governing philosophy. Not flowing with the wind as it politically suits.

[Space Mackerel]

And as far as trade deals go...with England afterwards, you cannot deny this is a fact.

 

[S Form]

8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

What about this?

 

I suspect that if Scotland were such a huge drain on the UK as is being implied by 'officially' produced figures then Boris Johnson and his pals would be the biggest supporters of Scottish independence. It begs the question why are they being so good to us?

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, S Form said:

I suspect that if Scotland were such a huge drain on the UK as is being implied by 'officially' produced figures then Boris Johnson and his pals would be the biggest supporters of Scottish independence. It begs the question why are they being so good to us?

 

Quite eh? They banged on about leaving the EU because the UK 'subsidised' them to the tune of £10 billion or so.

 

But, apparently they love to 'subsidise' us to £14 billion or whatever it is.

[Ainsley Harriott]

39 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Personal abuse! 

 

Is it a decent job, above the average pay up here, £25,000?

Indeed it is. What about yourself? Are you happy the way your post military career had panned out? In guessing probably not.

[GinRummy]

13 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

And as far as trade deals go...with England afterwards, you cannot deny this is a fact.

 

For some reason I can’t see what’s in that box. 

[manaliveits105]

More Brigadoon rubbish from the Nawtional no doubt and we wont meet the EU criteria as regards our deficit - never mind the groat and the big oil lies 

- sorry anyway did I miss that referendum date ?  - 2030 what ? - or more likely NOT -  the snp will be 3rd party again by then 

 

The Kingdom United will never be defeated 

 

You lost in 2014 - The Tories got a landslide in December - dry yer eyes 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Indeed it is. What about yourself? Are you happy the way your post military career had panned out? In guessing probably not.

 

Self employed pal. I pay about £16,000 a year in VAT on top of all my PAYE and NI contibutions.

 

I've 2 fully tricked up superbikes in my garage. No tick on the house either.

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

More Brigadoon rubbish from the Nawtional no doubt and we wont meet the EU criteria as regards our deficit - never mind the groat and the big oil lies 

- sorry anyway did I miss that referendum date ?  - 2030 what ? - or more likely NOT -  the snp will be 3rd party again by then 

 

The Kingdom United will never be defeated 

 

You lost in 2014 - The Tories got a landslide in December - dry yer eyes 

It’s the tories that are the worry for me. They’ll do the wrong things during the recession punish those who have nothing and reward the rich with tax breaks to boost the economy. Austerity 2 will be the end of the Union. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Self employed pal. I pay about £16,000 a year in VAT on top of all my PAYE and NI contibutions.

 

I've 2 fully tricked up superbikes in my garage. No tick on the house either.

Good for you Pal cool bikes and everything 👏👏👏

[Ainsley Harriott]

5 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

More Brigadoon rubbish from the Nawtional no doubt and we wont meet the EU criteria as regards our deficit - never mind the groat and the big oil lies 

- sorry anyway did I miss that referendum date ?  - 2030 what ? - or more likely NOT -  the snp will be 3rd party again by then 

 

The Kingdom United will never be defeated 

 

You lost in 2014 - The Tories got a landslide in December - dry yer eyes 

Agreed 

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Ainsley Harriott said:

Good for you Pal cool bikes and everything 👏👏👏

 

If I could be bothered I would take a pic of my discharge papers and show you the glowing reference I got from my Squadron Leader, from my early days in the...

 

Army 🤡

[S Form]

7 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

More Brigadoon rubbish from the Nawtional no doubt and we wont meet the EU criteria as regards our deficit - never mind the groat and the big oil lies 

- sorry anyway did I miss that referendum date ?  - 2030 what ? - or more likely NOT -  the snp will be 3rd party again by then 

 

The Kingdom United will never be defeated 

 

You lost in 2014 - The Tories got a landslide in December - dry yer eyes 

Well, that cogently argued position has really undercut the nationalists on here.

[Space Mackerel]

13 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

More Brigadoon rubbish from the Nawtional no doubt and we wont meet the EU criteria as regards our deficit - never mind the groat and the big oil lies 

 

 

Quite.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

If I could be bothered I would take a pic of my discharge papers and show you the glowing reference I got from my Squadron Leader, from my early days in the...

 

Army 🤡

Did you get a chocolate medal to?

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Did you get a chocolate medal to?

 

I got an index linked pension payable at 60.

 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

I don’t know if I believe it or not. Given that Westminster politicians will tell lies to make it look like independence is a non starter and the SNP will tell lies to make it look like independence will be way better than the status quo it’s quite difficult to get to the truth.

 

Similarly, staunch supporters in either camp will dismiss anything they don’t like as pish and accept anything that supports their point of view as fact. 

This is pretty bang on. 
It’s nigh on impossible to know. 
Personally or imo I should say you only have to look at Ireland to see we would be perfectly fine. Their population is smaller than ours, older than ours, they have nothing like the resources of Scotland yet their economy is one third bigger than ours. Over £100billion bigger. 
Yet we’d be living in never ending penury if you believe the doomsayers. 

[GinRummy]

6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

This is pretty bang on. 
It’s nigh on impossible to know. 
Personally or imo I should say you only have to look at Ireland to see we would be perfectly fine. Their population is smaller than ours, older than ours, they have nothing like the resources of Scotland yet their economy is one third bigger than ours. Over £100billion bigger. 
Yet we’d be living in never ending penury if you believe the doomsayers. 

Aye it’s hard to imagine the worst case scenario punters vision of independence as being anywhere near the truth. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

26 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I got an index linked pension payable at 60.

 

It's amazing what we can benefit from as part of the British establishment 

[Space Mackerel]

16 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

It's amazing what we can benefit from as part of the British establishment 

Yep, illegal wars that benefit oil companies and weapons manufacturers are always welcome. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Yep, illegal wars that benefit oil companies and weapons manufacturers are always welcome. 

And yourself. 

[Space Mackerel]

36 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

And yourself. 

Acoording to the expert TV chef readers,  Scotland won’t have any form of military or defence force. 
 

We’ll be scaring our enemies away by showing our bare arses, blowing bagpipes and throwing chuckies at them. 

[Ehllhayapeh]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

This is pretty bang on. 
It’s nigh on impossible to know. 
Personally or imo I should say you only have to look at Ireland to see we would be perfectly fine. Their population is smaller than ours, older than ours, they have nothing like the resources of Scotland yet their economy is one third bigger than ours. Over £100billion bigger. 
Yet we’d be living in never ending penury if you believe the doomsayers. 

It is nigh on impossible to know in part because the figures used now in GERS are C.R.A.P (completely rubbish approximations). GERS is designed to make Scotand look bad from the outset.

 

The other thing is, even if it were true that Scotland is a basket case, it became a basket case in Union. 

 

Better Together because we mismanaged Scotland so much you need us for eternity - hardly a ringing endorsement is it.

 

My gripe with the union really is immigration. Scotland needs a different approach  but the UK wont devolve it. Australian states, Korean provinces, SAR regions can all do it but its all to complex on a small island to say as your visa says "Scotland only" you cannot rent a house, have a job, use a hospital (unless emergency or sent for treatment) except in Scotland. Its not hard to enforce. English hospitals already are asking for passports and ID to access facilities and have been for a while.

 

 

[ri Alban]

We'll be gone soon enough.

[SwindonJambo]

3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

This is pretty bang on. 
It’s nigh on impossible to know. 
Personally or imo I should say you only have to look at Ireland to see we would be perfectly fine. Their population is smaller than ours, older than ours, they have nothing like the resources of Scotland yet their economy is one third bigger than ours. Over £100billion bigger. 
Yet we’d be living in never ending penury if you believe the doomsayers. 

It shouldn't be forgotten that Ireland's economy struggled horribly for the 1st 70 years post independence. It had mass emmigration, losing  tens of thousands of people a year well into the 1980s (counterbalanced by its then high birth rate, so it still grew). Its modern day prosperity only really began in the early 90s with some generous EU grants which it's now strong enough not to need.

 

While I think longer term Scotland would be fine on its own, the initial transitionary period could be painful and disruptive and hopefully it would take a lot less than the 70 years Ireland took. If taking the plunge, people need to brace themselves for that. It will be no walk in the park and major challenges can be expected for the 1st 5-10 years at least.

 

Whenever the next indyref comes, the Yes side need clarity on currency from the beginning. Their proposals last time were incoherent nonsense. If they'd got it right, I think the vote would have been closer.

 

2 problems it has to tackle is its too big public sector and demographic time bomb i.e. a rapidly growing retired population and not enough young people. It has to encourage skilled immigration to address the latter. Many governments around the World have tried to encourage people to have more babies and they're seldom successful!

 

I agree that the GERS figures are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

I tend to favour the union because I feel both Scottish and British. I've been here a long time and indy would make me an instant foreigner when currently I'm not. I've never cheered on England at football or Rugby and I'm anti monarchist.

 

But I'm not vehemently opposed to independence and I hope Scotland prospers, whatever it chooses to do in future 👍

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

It shouldn't be forgotten that Ireland's economy struggled horribly for the 1st 70 years post independence. It had mass emmigration, losing  tens of thousands of people a year well into the 1980s (counterbalanced by its then high birth rate, so it still grew). Its modern day prosperity only really began in the early 90s with some generous EU grants which it's now strong enough not to need.

 

While I think longer term Scotland would be fine on its own, the initial transitionary period could be painful and disruptive and hopefully it would take a lot less than the 70 years Ireland took. If taking the plunge, people need to brace themselves for that. It will be no walk in the park and major challenges can be expected for the 1st 5-10 years at least.

 

Whenever the next indyref comes, the Yes side need clarity on currency from the beginning. Their proposals last time were incoherent nonsense. If they'd got it right, I think the vote would have been closer.

 

2 problems it has to tackle is its too big public sector and demographic time bomb i.e. a rapidly growing retired population and not enough young people. It has to encourage skilled immigration to address the latter. Many governments around the World have tried to encourage people to have more babies and they're seldom successful!

 

I agree that the GERS figures are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

I tend to favour the union because I feel both Scottish and British. I've been here a long time and indy would make me an instant foreigner when currently I'm not. I've never cheered on England at football or Rugby and I'm anti monarchist.

 

But I'm not vehemently opposed to independence and I hope Scotland prospers, whatever it chooses to do in future 👍

Good post, but of course we live in a completely different world to the one the Irish Free State was born into.

 

We're a modern country with established industries, good relationships and abundant natural resources and ingenuity, I'd have no fear about our ability to move forward as a proud, independent nation.

[SwindonJambo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Good post, but of course we live in a completely different world to the one the Irish Free State was born into.

 

We're a modern country with established industries, good relationships and abundant natural resources and ingenuity, I'd have no fear about our ability to move forward as a proud, independent nation.

Agreed. It would definitely get on its feet much quicker than Ireland. Much richer in natural resources for starters. But there are demographic and currency challenges for sure.

 

I would tend to favour a Norway EEA style arrangement initially at least. Then Scotland could set up its own currency and central bank so have its own monetary policy. That said I voted Remain because no way is the UK ever giving up the pound. New states joining the EU must commit to the Euro long term and I don't think that would be the right choice for Scotland. If it could join the EU and avoid the Euro then that could be a good fit (as Poland and Hungary have). The Euro is basically the Deutschmark reborn. It's a German racket which has impoverished Southern Europe and I wouldn't want to see a fledgling independent Scotland dragged down with it.

 

[Boris]

12 hours ago, IronJambo said:

You voted as an individual, equal to every other individual that voted. 

Of course I voted as an individual. But my nation is not treated as an equal, despite being told it is.

[GinRummy]

The economics is always going to be the leading argument on both sides but why on earth did the SNP want to keep the queen as head of state? Surely the archaic tradition of having a royal family should be dumped as soon as Scotland becomes independent (which is only a matter of time imo).

[ri Alban]

12 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

The economics is always going to be the leading argument on both sides but why on earth did the SNP want to keep the queen as head of state? Surely the archaic tradition of having a royal family should be dumped as soon as Scotland becomes independent (which is only a matter of time imo).

Probably to get some Unionists on side. Crown v Parliament union.

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

The economics is always going to be the leading argument on both sides but why on earth did the SNP want to keep the queen as head of state? Surely the archaic tradition of having a royal family should be dumped as soon as Scotland becomes independent (which is only a matter of time imo).

 

I think it was more kicking the can down the road on that conversation- it wouldn't put a single nationalist off, while a promise to abolish might put off some potential swingers. 

 

[GinRummy]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I think it was more kicking the can down the road on that conversation- it wouldn't put a single nationalist off, while a promise to abolish might put off some potential swingers. 

 

I think you’re probably right. It sort of sums up why I can’t be arsed with politics tbh. Politicians of all parties talk shite then when they get into power they do a u turn. Not particularly aimed at the snp or this topic btw. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I think it was more kicking the can down the road on that conversation- it wouldn't put a single nationalist off, while a promise to abolish might put off some potential swingers. 

 

 

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

 

Him, billy Davies and a sex worker. Sounds like the start of a joke. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

25 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Him, billy Davies and a sex worker. Sounds like the start of a joke. 

Imagine the collective amount of spray on tan

[Pans Jambo]

13 hours ago, Ehllhayapeh said:

It is nigh on impossible to know in part because the figures used now in GERS are C.R.A.P (completely rubbish approximations). GERS is designed to make Scotand look bad from the outset.

 

The other thing is, even if it were true that Scotland is a basket case, it became a basket case in Union. 

 

Better Together because we mismanaged Scotland so much you need us for eternity - hardly a ringing endorsement is it.

 

My gripe with the union really is immigration. Scotland needs a different approach  but the UK wont devolve it. Australian states, Korean provinces, SAR regions can all do it but its all to complex on a small island to say as your visa says "Scotland only" you cannot rent a house, have a job, use a hospital (unless emergency or sent for treatment) except in Scotland. Its not hard to enforce. English hospitals already are asking for passports and ID to access facilities and have been for a while.

 

 

Well said.

[Justin Z]

19 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

And yourself. 

 

Boy, you sure go personal a lot for whining like a bairn about people getting personal when it suits.

[Space Mackerel]

Bit of a dull yin for the Unionists.

 

I'm suddenly quite fond of this guy, chucks out free money and is up for Scottish independence. 😎

 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18353101.chancellor-rishi-sunak-argued-england-break-away-uk/?ref=twtrec

 

[Justin Z]

On 01/04/2020 at 08:54, Justin Z said:

 

I never answered his question about how I'd have liked to see Covid handled in the UK, to be fair.

 

The answer starts with not having lying, propaganda-spreading pseudofascists in government, something we're all too acquainted with on this side of the pond as well, and actually listening to people smarter than me who do this stuff for a living, so I just didn't think he'd be too interested.

 

The answer would also include this, for what it's worth. Instead, all we'll have, maybe, is an inquest.

 

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1245631080868134912

 

[Roxy Hearts]

7 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Don't take this personally @Roxy Hearts but you are bad at starting threads. 

What to do you mean? Bad?