brunstanejambo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 8 hours ago, Captain Canada said: A lot of prominent scientists think masks could be potentially increasing the risk of spreading the virus because of the issues above. As a sceptic about most things that I read in the press and hear from the Government, I'd be interested to read more about this. Do you have some links to the research that these prominent scientists have done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montgomery Brewster Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 10 hours ago, Captain Sausage said: Heres the daily case numbers from Worldometers for France, alongside the French government data for daily hospitalisations. Notice how they march nearly perfectly through the peak, however in spite of the ridiculous number of new cases being seen, hospitalisations are only just creeping up. Surely we should be focusing on why this seems to be the case? Rather than the constant doom and gloom. Is it: - virus weakening - only young people being infected - inaccurate testing ?? Answers on a postcard... You’ve answered your own question I think. in March these were the known cases that had been identified . There would have been countless thousands of others who never got tested or didn’t even know they had it. Therefore the hospitalisations appear lower now. now thousands of people are being tested or being sent for one through a workplace event / mass testing a workplace. This is reason that the hospital and death rate is nowwhere near the same figure as the number of infections then compared to now is a lot less. We understand more about the virus and practice social distancing to a degree which all helps. However there’s no proof as we will never know how many people actually had the virus at the peak time Earlier in the year . its like trying to compare apples and oranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 9 hours ago, jonesy said: Just carry on as normal as you can. Ignore some of the more cultish mask adherents and the germophobes (lapsed ones are okay!) and enjoy things. Looks out for folk by not standing too close if possible. It's not hard. Nanny Sturgeon and her desire to regulate every moment of our lives can piss off. Just about covers my view 👍 Apart from the last paragraph of course 😴 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdy Doody Jambo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 I've heard a few people saying Scotland have handled the pandemic much better then England but I didn't realise it was a competition Could anyone enlighten me what has been so much better north of the border? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 8 hours ago, JamesM48 said: Im hardly a hillbilly lol 😂 Did you really wash your messages ? I'm all for taking sensible precautions but that's crazy. There is a difference between following guidelines and COB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ma Roon said: I've heard a few people saying Scotland have handled the pandemic much better then England but I didn't realise it was a competition Could anyone enlighten me what has been so much better north of the border? A lot of the people saying that are folk who live in England. I'm just going by what I've seen on TV. You're right, it's not a competition but it's worth remembering there are different scenarios requiring different reactions depending which part of the UK is affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdy Doody Jambo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 21 minutes ago, luckydug said: A lot of the people saying that are folk who live in England. I'm just going by what I've seen on TV. You're right, it's not a competition but it's worth remembering there are different scenarios requiring different reactions depending which part of the UK is affected. Funny, a couple of people who I spoke to were front down south as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 As long as some exhaled moisture is captured by whatever mask you are wearing, it's reducing the risk of spreading the infection. The better mask you have, the better fit is has and the better discipline you show when out and about, the better the reduced risk of viral spread. Yes, if everybody did everything perfectly then infection rates would plummet much faster. But people can't be trusted. But as long as enough people do things more or less right, infection rates will continue to slow down, just not as fast as we'd like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Ma Roon said: I've heard a few people saying Scotland have handled the pandemic much better then England but I didn't realise it was a competition Could anyone enlighten me what has been so much better north of the border? Initially both governments made the same mistakes on lockdown timings, PPE, testing, care homes etc. There was the view that Scotland has done better than England but as time had passed there is little evidence to back this up. The biggest criticism aimed at Boris Johnson was that he was opening things up too quickly and that cases and associated deaths would rocket. He was accused of putting the economy before health. In contrast Nicola Sturgeon was praised for her cautious approach and going more slowly with easing lockdown. The reality is England hasn’t seen the rise in cases so many predicted while Scotland’s case rate is almost exactly the same as England’s despite the different approach. Also as time has gone on the focus on the importance of the economy has shifted with people recognising the need to balance both economy and health. In fairness Nicola Sturgeon has provided more visible leadership and has in the main provided a clarity of message better than UK government have. She has done better there. I would summarise it as Scottish government hasn’t done quite as well as people think and UK government hasn’t done as badly as people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Potter Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Wore a mask for 15 years in the production of blood products, sometimes this was done where settle plates were prepared to catch any contamination, this was to prove a sterile practice, within the area, the mask certainly worked, as said before i will wear one , better on than off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Internet Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 16 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: Initially both governments made the same mistakes on lockdown timings, PPE, testing, care homes etc. There was the view that Scotland has done better than England but as time had passed there is little evidence to back this up. The biggest criticism aimed at Boris Johnson was that he was opening things up too quickly and that cases and associated deaths would rocket. He was accused of putting the economy before health. In contrast Nicola Sturgeon was praised for her cautious approach and going more slowly with easing lockdown. The reality is England hasn’t seen the rise in cases so many predicted while Scotland’s case rate is almost exactly the same as England’s despite the different approach. Also as time has gone on the focus on the importance of the economy has shifted with people recognising the need to balance both economy and health. In fairness Nicola Sturgeon has provided more visible leadership and has in the main provided a clarity of message better than UK government have. She has done better there. I would summarise it as Scottish government hasn’t done quite as well as people think and UK government hasn’t done as badly as people think. Agree with all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 22 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said: I don't disagree with much of what you say, but without looking too closely at the data, people in England are still dying, not true in Scotland ATM Scotland had a higher death rate up to june. Not sure if we still do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 4 hours ago, ri Alban said: Hopefully a fellow non wearer coughs and sneezes all over you. Are you in pain ? Because you certainly post like you are . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back to 2005 Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 On 04/09/2020 at 18:04, theshed said: Does anyone know what’s happens if UK figures go above 20? Only difference is Sturgeon is more coherent than Johnson. In reality the only measure we can use is the number of deaths if we have to compare and we were third worse in Europe the last I saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, Back to 2005 said: Only difference is Sturgeon is more coherent than Johnson. In reality the only measure we can use is the number of deaths if we have to compare and we were third worse in Europe the last I saw. Even comparing deaths across countries isn't a great way to do it, there are too many differences in definitions and standards. Excess deaths is probably as good a comparison you'll get and the UK generally looks horrific on that measure. We shouldn't be doing comparisons anyway. All crass. We've handled it badly, no matter the measure I'd say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 2 hours ago, luckydug said: Did you really wash your messages ? I'm all for taking sensible precautions but that's crazy. There is a difference between following guidelines and COB. I was washing my messages for a while. Calmed down now as the virus has reduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 12 minutes ago, jonesy said: Even then, you have to take into account the prevelance and variety of underlying health conditions, the general health and age of the populations and of course, the apparent variances in how the data is being collected. The obsession with daily updates and statistics related to Covid has been, in my view, a kind of macabre form of entertainment for many in the last few months, with numbers being used to score political points and instill both fear and hope into people depending on how they are used. You've been good at turning this thread political. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 15 minutes ago, jonesy said: Even then, you have to take into account the prevelance and variety of underlying health conditions, the general health and age of the populations and of course, the apparent variances in how the data is being collected. The obsession with daily updates and statistics related to Covid has been, in my view, a kind of macabre form of entertainment for many in the last few months, with numbers being used to score political points and instill both fear and hope into people depending on how they are used. The scoring political points has been mainly on social media imo. I'm prepared to accept that all the UK leaders have been doing their best. It's easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdy Doody Jambo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said: Initially both governments made the same mistakes on lockdown timings, PPE, testing, care homes etc. There was the view that Scotland has done better than England but as time had passed there is little evidence to back this up. The biggest criticism aimed at Boris Johnson was that he was opening things up too quickly and that cases and associated deaths would rocket. He was accused of putting the economy before health. In contrast Nicola Sturgeon was praised for her cautious approach and going more slowly with easing lockdown. The reality is England hasn’t seen the rise in cases so many predicted while Scotland’s case rate is almost exactly the same as England’s despite the different approach. Also as time has gone on the focus on the importance of the economy has shifted with people recognising the need to balance both economy and health. In fairness Nicola Sturgeon has provided more visible leadership and has in the main provided a clarity of message better than UK government have. She has done better there. I would summarise it as Scottish government hasn’t done quite as well as people think and UK government hasn’t done as badly as people think. Very good summary I'd say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Late to the party again! https://apple.news/ARk8nPY_rSTqrRyN7tQ6x9g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 208 new positive cases in Scotland No new deaths 4 people in ICU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNic Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Hopefully this 2nd wave hurries up so we can all get another few weeks aff work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said: Initially both governments made the same mistakes on lockdown timings, PPE, testing, care homes etc. There was the view that Scotland has done better than England but as time had passed there is little evidence to back this up. The biggest criticism aimed at Boris Johnson was that he was opening things up too quickly and that cases and associated deaths would rocket. He was accused of putting the economy before health. In contrast Nicola Sturgeon was praised for her cautious approach and going more slowly with easing lockdown. The reality is England hasn’t seen the rise in cases so many predicted while Scotland’s case rate is almost exactly the same as England’s despite the different approach. Also as time has gone on the focus on the importance of the economy has shifted with people recognising the need to balance both economy and health. In fairness Nicola Sturgeon has provided more visible leadership and has in the main provided a clarity of message better than UK government have. She has done better there. I would summarise it as Scottish government hasn’t done quite as well as people think and UK government hasn’t done as badly as people think. I don't know where you got your case rate figures from but, over the pandemic, the infection and death rates per million population are as follows: Scotland - 3,878 infections, 457 deaths England - 5,278 infections, 655 deaths They don't look almost exactly the same to me. Over the last few days, we have been experiencing roughly the same pro rata infection figures but I would argue that this is due to the clusters we have at the moment and doesn't (and shouldn't) detract from the differing success, on a per-population basis, that Scotland and England have experienced during the pandemic so far. Edited September 6, 2020 by redjambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canada Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 6 hours ago, brunstanejambo said: As a sceptic about most things that I read in the press and hear from the Government, I'd be interested to read more about this. Do you have some links to the research that these prominent scientists have done? Here are a couple on cloth masks. I've read a few more but don't have them all bookmarked or anything. https://blog.gotopac.com/2020/06/26/do-cloth-face-masks-work-why-is-a-3-ply-procedural-mask-more-effective/ https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-politics/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 4 hours ago, luckydug said: Did you really wash your messages ? I'm all for taking sensible precautions but that's crazy. There is a difference between following guidelines and COB. Yeah i did at the height of it. Much more chilled now though. Whats COB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said: Initially both governments made the same mistakes on lockdown timings, PPE, testing, care homes etc. There was the view that Scotland has done better than England but as time had passed there is little evidence to back this up. The biggest criticism aimed at Boris Johnson was that he was opening things up too quickly and that cases and associated deaths would rocket. He was accused of putting the economy before health. In contrast Nicola Sturgeon was praised for her cautious approach and going more slowly with easing lockdown. The reality is England hasn’t seen the rise in cases so many predicted while Scotland’s case rate is almost exactly the same as England’s despite the different approach. Also as time has gone on the focus on the importance of the economy has shifted with people recognising the need to balance both economy and health. In fairness Nicola Sturgeon has provided more visible leadership and has in the main provided a clarity of message better than UK government have. She has done better there. I would summarise it as Scottish government hasn’t done quite as well as people think and UK government hasn’t done as badly as people think. Great posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Twitter : Replying to @TheRustler83 See graph below on Scottish hospital admissions from Covid-19. Further evidence that Professor @MLevitt_NP2013 prediction were correct. The virus peaked in April & has burnt out like a seasonal virus would always do. There is no second wave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Brilliant article about the madness in Australia at the current time https://www.spectator.com.au/2020/09/mr-morrison-tear-down-these-walls/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 11 minutes ago, JamesM48 said: Twitter : Replying to @TheRustler83 See graph below on Scottish hospital admissions from Covid-19. Further evidence that Professor @MLevitt_NP2013 prediction were correct. The virus peaked in April & has burnt out like a seasonal virus would always do. There is no second wave. Looks like conclusion shopping to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 8 minutes ago, JamesM48 said: Brilliant article about the madness in Australia at the current time https://www.spectator.com.au/2020/09/mr-morrison-tear-down-these-walls/ More conclusion shopping with added paranoia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartstastic Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 https://wits.worldbank.org/trade/comtrade/en/country/ALL/year/2018/tradeflow/Exports/partner/WLD/nomen/h5/product/902780 Covid 19 testing equipment being purchased in 2018...interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Internet Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, heartstastic said: https://wits.worldbank.org/trade/comtrade/en/country/ALL/year/2018/tradeflow/Exports/partner/WLD/nomen/h5/product/902780 Covid 19 testing equipment being purchased in 2018...interesting. What is that showing us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartstastic Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 That Covid 19 was at least a known entity in 2018 ,and not a thing that appeared out of nowhere in China at the start of 2020 because someone ate a bat as reported on mainstream media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 11 minutes ago, frankblack said: Looks like conclusion shopping to me. 10 minutes ago, frankblack said: More conclusion shopping with added paranoia. Ok 💤 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Internet Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Just now, heartstastic said: That Covid 19 was at least a known entity in 2018 ,and not a thing that appeared out of nowhere in China at the start of 2020 because someone ate a bat as reported on mainstream media. Fair dos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 8 minutes ago, heartstastic said: That Covid 19 was at least a known entity in 2018 ,and not a thing that appeared out of nowhere in China at the start of 2020 because someone ate a bat as reported on mainstream media. And yet there will be some who actually believe that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, redjambo said: And yet there will be some who actually believe that. I know. It looks like the person who posted the link actually believes it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 18 minutes ago, JamesM48 said: Ok 💤 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) On 01/09/2020 at 00:44, Jambo, Goodbye said: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/world/asia/japan-coronavirus-masks.html "During the current pandemic, scientists have found a correlation between high levels of mask-wearing — whether as a matter of culture or policy — and success in containing the virus. “I think there is definitely evidence coming out of Covid that Japan, as well as other countries which practice mask-wearing, tend to do much better in flattening the curve,” said Akiko Iwasaki, a professor of immunobiology at Yale. The scientific evidence on whether a mask protects the wearer from infection is mixed. But experiments show that masks can be effective in blocking the emission of respiratory droplets that may contain the virus, even when someone has no symptoms of illness. And there is some evidence that infected people with no symptoms can still transmit the coronavirus." I said this weeks, if not a couple of months ago. Just wear the damn mask 🙄 After 8 months the scientific evidence is still not strong. Lots of mays and mights and coulds. Tests in laboratory conditions do not represent how masks are worn and treated in real life. As for Japan there are other cultural differences, like not shaking hands and kissing and cuddling people every time you meet them (one small merit of Coronavirus is it may have put an end to this now widely practiced annoying routine). As Clive James once said you can be in the most crowded airport in Japan and no-one will intrude on your personal space, whereas in a virtually empty airport in Australia someone is almost bound to stumble or run into you. I wear my mask where instructed but like I suspect 99% of users I admit to not following the advice on how they should be worn, treated, handled and washed or disposed of after every use.. The fact that this advice is very rarely publicised by the authorities tends to confirm that the whole mask wearing thing is more for show than anything else. Edited September 6, 2020 by Francis Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartstastic Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 11 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said: I know. It looks like the person who posted the link actually believes it Don't hold any beliefs ,there pretty dangerous..this world runs on them for the most part. As for the link, make your own mind up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: After 8 months the scientific evidence is still not strong. Lots of mays and mights and coulds. Tests in laboratory conditions do not represent how masks are worn and treated in real life. As for Japan there are other cultural differences, like not shaking hands and kissing and cuddling people every time you meet them (one small merit of Coronavirus is it may have put an end to this now widely practiced annoying routine). As Clive James once said you can be in the most crowded airport in Japan and no-one will intrude on your personal space, whereas in a virtually empty airport in Australia someone is almost bound to stumble or run into you. I wear my mask where instructed but like I suspect 99% of users I admit to not following the advice on how they should be worn, treated, handled and washed or disposed of after every use.. The fact that this advice is very rarely publicised by the authorities tends to confirm that the whole mask wearing thing is more for show than anything else. Look on it as similar to everyone donating their railings to the war effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Harry Potter said: Wore a mask for 15 years in the production of blood products, sometimes this was done where settle plates were prepared to catch any contamination, this was to prove a sterile practice, within the area, the mask certainly worked, as said before i will wear one , better on than off. To me, Harry, that’s the key. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 39 minutes ago, heartstastic said: That Covid 19 was at least a known entity in 2018 ,and not a thing that appeared out of nowhere in China at the start of 2020 because someone ate a bat as reported on mainstream media. 🥴 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, davemclaren said: Look on it as similar to everyone donating their railings to the war effort. A good analogy! I don't think there is evidence that it added one Spitfire or tank to the war effort but showed we were all in it together (sort of!) Edited September 6, 2020 by Francis Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Potter Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, Morgan said: To me, Harry, that’s the key. 👍 Certainly is bud, a no brainer as they say, hope you are well pal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartstastic Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 15 minutes ago, davemclaren said: 🥴 Cracking reply there....https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report 17 November 2019 is said to be when first case happened. The link i provided showed Covid 19 testing equipment being purchased in 2018. How can something be tested for that is not yet known to exist? Seems a reasonable question to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 14 minutes ago, heartstastic said: Cracking reply there....https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report 17 November 2019 is said to be when first case happened. The link i provided showed Covid 19 testing equipment being purchased in 2018. How can something be tested for that is not yet known to exist? Seems a reasonable question to ask. It clearly can’t. 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Internet Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Seems a sloppy mistake to make when covering up a global pandemic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 2988 new positive cases in the UK. That's quite a jump Only 2 deaths in all UK settings though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, heartstastic said: Cracking reply there....https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report 17 November 2019 is said to be when first case happened. The link i provided showed Covid 19 testing equipment being purchased in 2018. How can something be tested for that is not yet known to exist? Seems a reasonable question to ask. Because the equipment refers to "Instruments used in clinical laboratories for In Vitro Diagnosis " and "Colorimetric end tidal CO2 detector", which were used for other purposes than Covid pre-Covid. This equipment has been given an HS Code 902780 which is now described as "COVID-19 Diagnostic Test instruments and apparatus" in relation to Covid-19. This named classification didn't exist pre-Covid. It has been created in order to track the movements of equipment in past years which is now being used or useable for Covid-19 analysis or treatment. I've been trying to find the HS Code for tin foil hats but can't find it. Edited September 6, 2020 by redjambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.