'New Stand update'.well an update

[Bazzas right boot]

7 hours ago, Papa said:

Not read every post on this thread. I for one congratulate the club on having the strategic thinking to invest in our new stand. The old stand (which I sat in for years) was well past its sell by date. It cost several thousands of £s every year just to keep it maintained to an acceptable standard ( I used to have to negotiate access/egress via a dark stairwell and I was often concerned as to what might happen if someone lost their footing.) The old stand had very basic corporate facilities and the players changing areas were inadequately small. The turnaround has been dramatic - less maintenance cost, increased capacity for corporate and ordinary supporters and potential for hosting international etc matches all leading to additional revenue.

I still feel a sense of pride as I turn off Gorgie Road into McLeod Street and the new stand/Foundation Plaza comes into view and I remember how this used to look from the 1960s onwards. 

 

 

Beautiful. 

[davemclaren]

19 minutes ago, McCrae said:

We are very lucky things didn’t go horribly wrong for us with this overspend. Project management for the new stand build has been appalling. It’s unbelievable that the club had not worked out what they could do with the space created in the main stand before they started building it.  It turns out lucky for us that more space was created than they had thought. It could easily have gone the other way and we could have ended up with a stand not big enough for what we need.  The initial budget appears to have been based on building a shell that would be fitted out at a later date.  If this was a normal company Budge would have been fired for this lack of over sight and negligence.

The offices were going into the empty floor originally but then they reckoned it was better to leave them under the Wheatfield. Was the stand rushed ( necessarily ) and mistakes made? absolutely!!

[Bazzas right boot]

19 minutes ago, McCrae said:

We are very lucky things didn’t go horribly wrong for us with this overspend. Project management for the new stand build has been appalling. It’s unbelievable that the club had not worked out what they could do with the space created in the main stand before they started building it.  It turns out lucky for us that more space was created than they had thought. It could easily have gone the other way and we could have ended up with a stand not big enough for what we need.  The initial budget appears to have been based on building a shell that would be fitted out at a later date.  If this was a normal company Budge would have been fired for this lack of over sight and negligence.

 

Who's sacking Budge? 

 

You mean if Budge never owned us?

If she didn't put money in and stop liquidation? 

 

Rarely has a owner or founder of a company sacked themselves for making a mistake. 

 

You waiting on Branson firing himself over train delays? 

 

Your post is the only thing negligent, negligent of any sense. 

 

Probably the worse post I've read on here. 

 

[Vlad Magic]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

What "exactly" do you hope to achieve by asking that question?

Are you stupid?

 

Its a few hours later so past tense required.

 

What did you hope to achieve by asking that question?

[Jambo-Fox]

This should be called the ‘Winter Break Thread’ - all the moaners are on here because there is no football to moan about! They’ve got to have their moaning fix!!

 

 

[Taffin]

2 hours ago, DalryJambo said:

It depends what the £12m of extras are and how much income that will generate is over the extra 20 odd years. 
 

It’s staggeringly simple to be honest. 

 

What are those extras and how much income will it generate over the extra 20 odd years?

 

If people knew those answers they'd likely be less questioning and dissatisfied. So if you could share it with us that would be great.

[McCrae]

28 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

The offices were going into the empty floor originally but then they reckoned it was better to leave them under the Wheatfield. Was the stand rushed ( necessarily ) and mistakes made? absolutely!!

There was no need to rush. A bit more time to think about things would have saved a lot of money.  The forgetting to order seats for the stand was a clear indication that the project was not being well managed.

Edited January 6, 2020 by McCrae

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

This should be called the ‘Winter Break Thread’ - all the moaners are on here because there is no football to moan about! They’ve got to have their moaning fix!!

 

 

 

I really wish this patter would stop, it's just cheap.

 

I'm not a moaner, I'm a hoper, but I have concerns over our stadium project and the regime that oversaw it and I'm not apologising to anyone for it.

 

Don't agree? Fine, state your case, and if it's good enough I'll be convinced, but just putting it down to moaners moaning is cheap and shitty.

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, McCrae said:

There was no need to rush. A bit more time to think about things would have saved a lot of money.  The forgetting to order seats for the stand was a clear indication that the project was not being well managed.

The council were looking to quickly replace the nursery school which drove the short timeframe. 

[McCrae]

27 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Who's sacking Budge? 

 

You mean if Budge never owned us?

If she didn't put money in and stop liquidation? 

 

Rarely has a owner or founder of a company sacked themselves for making a mistake. 

 

You waiting on Branson firing himself over train delays? 

 

Your post is the only thing negligent, negligent of any sense. 

 

Probably the worse post I've read on here. 

 

Eh... did you understand the line about normal company....guess not.

 

Budge does deserve a huge amount of credit and respect for putting up the cash to save our club.

 

She should have acted as a Chairperson and appointed someone who understood football to act as CEO. She didn’t understand what she was doing and that created the mess we are in on the park and the massive over spend on our stand.

 

Those are two big mistakes.

[Vlad Magic]

Just now, McCrae said:

Eh... did you understand the line about normal company....guess not.

 

Budge does deserve a huge amount of credit and respect for putting up the cash to save our club.

 

She should have acted as a Chairperson and appointed someone who understood football to act as CEO. She didn’t understand what she was doing and that created the mess we are in on the park and the massive over spend on our stand.

 

Those are two big mistakes.

What over spend?

[McCrae]

Just now, Vlad Magic said:

What over spend?

The costs of the stadium are almost double the original budget

[McCrae]

4 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

The council were looking to quickly replace the nursery school which drove the short timeframe. 

Sometimes you have to say no despite external pressure. 

[DalryJambo]

4 minutes ago, TheTrumpet said:

And can you give me the answer to those questions? It should be staggeringly simple.

The pitch for one, an improved finish spec throughout, fan bar ahead of the original schedule etc etc. I don’t have the finer detail and I’m not so worried about this to do much more digging as I trust what the club are saying. 
 

Yes, there has been an over run in places, yes mistakes have been made but many of the additional costs have been planned after much thought and consideration by the board with the sole intention of improving the original designs and maximising income. 

[Vlad Magic]

Just now, McCrae said:

The costs of the stadium are almost double the original budget

That’s not the answer to the question I asked?

 

What overspend?

 

To answer the question you would need to know how much the stand would cost when it was planned.

 

We didn’t ergo there is no over or indeed under spend.

 

It simply cost what it costs.

[davemclaren]

Just now, McCrae said:

Sometimes you have to say no despite external pressure. 

If we had said no they would have built a new nursery on land we needed for the stand. 🧐

[obua]

8 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

The council were looking to quickly replace the nursery school which drove the short timeframe. 

Dave you are wasting your time this has been explained over and over,certain people chose to ignore facts.

[The Future's Maroon]

8 minutes ago, McCrae said:

The costs of the stadium are almost double the original budget

The estimates of the original build. 👍

[XB52]

I am sure we had the same arguments a year ago. Nice to see the hobos are still hanging on here, slamming their heads against the keyboard. 

[Thomaso]

21 minutes ago, McCrae said:

There was no need to rush. A bit more time to think about things would have saved a lot of money.  The forgetting to order seats for the stand was a clear indication that the project was not being well managed.

There was no need to rush???

The council had put a new nursery through planning which would have kyboshed any future development of Tynecastle!

The Club had a very small window of opportunity to build the stand and handover the nursery in the tight timescale agreed with the council.

Jeez how many more times! 😖

[davemclaren]

13 minutes ago, McCrae said:

The costs of the stadium are almost double the original budget

 

23 hours ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Here is my stab at the breakdown of costs

 

QS flawed budget - £12m

Budget correction - £6m

Plant Room - £1.5m

Hybrid Pitch - £1m

Design changes - £1.5m

 

Out turn cost - £22m

This was posted earlier and it seems very plausible to me. The poster was closely involved in the development and suggests the original estimates by the QS were badly out. 

[davemclaren]

11 minutes ago, obua said:

Dave you are wasting your time this has been explained over and over,certain people chose to ignore facts.

🤷🏼‍♂️😳😫🤯

[McCrae]

12 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

There was no need to rush???

The council had put a new nursery through planning which would have kyboshed any future development of Tynecastle!

The Club had a very small window of opportunity to build the stand and handover the nursery in the tight timescale agreed with the council.

Jeez how many more times! 😖

 

And you think there would be no flexibility from the council regarding timings.... almost every project the council gets involved in ends up being delayed.

[Bazzas right boot]

34 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Eh... did you understand the line about normal company....guess not.

 

Budge does deserve a huge amount of credit and respect for putting up the cash to save our club.

 

She should have acted as a Chairperson and appointed someone who understood football to act as CEO. She didn’t understand what she was doing and that created the mess we are in on the park and the massive over spend on our stand.

 

Those are two big mistakes.

 

 

Normal company- point stands a normal company owner won't sack themselves for a mistake. 

[Jambo-Fox]

49 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I really wish this patter would stop, it's just cheap.

 

I'm not a moaner, I'm a hoper, but I have concerns over our stadium project and the regime that oversaw it and I'm not apologising to anyone for it.

 

Don't agree? Fine, state your case, and if it's good enough I'll be convinced, but just putting it down to moaners moaning is cheap and shitty.

Ooooo touchy!!!

 

The projects over .... what we have is what we’ve got .... get over it!!

[Jambo-Fox]

52 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I really wish this patter would stop, it's just cheap.

 

I'm not a moaner, I'm a hoper, but I have concerns over our stadium project and the regime that oversaw it and I'm not apologising to anyone for it.

 

Don't agree? Fine, state your case, and if it's good enough I'll be convinced, but just putting it down to moaners moaning is cheap and shitty.

PS it was the only regime in town that was there and saved us from extinction!

[Thomaso]

55 minutes ago, McCrae said:

 

And you think there would be no flexibility from the council regarding timings.... almost every project the council gets involved in ends up being delayed.

The fact is there was huge pressure from the parents and local councillors to provide a new nursery to a previously agreed timescale.
The Club could not take the chance that the Council would agree to the “flexibility” you suggest.

[McCrae]

2 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

The fact is there was huge pressure from the parents and local councillors to provide a new nursery to a previously agreed timescale.
The Club could not take the chance that the Council would agree to the “flexibility” you suggest.

maybe... we will never know.... that rush though cost the club several million.

[heatonjambo]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

🤷🏼‍♂️😳😫🤯

It is still a very poorly designed stand.

 

regardless of timescales an inept architect and poor project management ultimately caused the problems.

 

a short excerise in sketching over the plans would Improve them

[busby1985]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Fox said:

This should be called the ‘Winter Break Thread’ - all the moaners are on here because there is no football to moan about! They’ve got to have their moaning fix!!

 

 

Gotta keep match fit somehow. 

[Thomaso]

1 minute ago, heatonjambo said:

It is still a very poorly designed stand.

 

regardless of timescales an inept architect and poor project management ultimately caused the problems.

 

a short excerise in sketching over the plans would Improve them

Bash on - let’s see your sketches.

[heatonjambo]

2 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Bash on - let’s see your sketches.

Ok

 

will have a look at it tomorrow evening 

 

trust the thread will still be going 

[Thomaso]

2 minutes ago, McCrae said:

maybe... we will never know.... that rush though cost the club several million.

Planning approval was given by the Council for the new stand strictly on the basis that Hearts would complete the nursery by the deadline date - so they were just kidding were they?

[Thomaso]

Just now, heatonjambo said:

Ok

 

will have a look at it tomorrow evening 

 

trust the thread will still be going 

I’ll make sure it is. 👍

[heatonjambo]

2 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

I’ll make sure it is. 👍

Love a challenge 

 

😀

 

will need a bottle of Bordeaux mind

[Unknown user]

54 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

Ooooo touchy!!!

 

The projects over .... what we have is what we’ve got .... get over it!!

"Ooooo touchy" jesus wept

 

Considering the smug patronising from some whenever they encounter an opposing opinion, I think my touchiness is at appropriate levels.

 

54 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

PS it was the only regime in town that was there and saved us from extinction!

No shit sherlock. That doesn't mean everything they ever do is above being viewed on it's own merits.

[McCrae]

16 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Planning approval was given by the Council for the new stand strictly on the basis that Hearts would complete the nursery by the deadline date - so they were just kidding were they?

planning deadlines are often missed without consequences. Our wonderful trams being a very public example. 

[highlandjambo3]

2 minutes ago, McCrae said:

planning deadlines are often missed without consequences. Our wonderful trams being a very public example. 

Didn’t the coonsul miss a part of their planning deadline with something they were supposed to do in the nursery (sure I read that somewhere) 

[Jambo-Fox]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

"Ooooo touchy" jesus wept

 

Considering the smug patronising from some whenever they encounter an opposing opinion, I think my touchiness is at appropriate levels.

 

No shit sherlock. That doesn't mean everything they ever do is above being viewed on it's own merits.

🤦

[Thomaso]

16 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Didn’t the coonsul miss a part of their planning deadline with something they were supposed to do in the nursery (sure I read that somewhere) 

The Council were slow with their fit out work however the Club could not foresee that and had to meet the agreed date for handover of the nursery.

[Thomaso]

22 minutes ago, McCrae said:

planning deadlines are often missed without consequences. Our wonderful trams being a very public example. 

And many planning deadlines are missed with contractual and financial penalties.

[Footballfirst]

2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

 

This was posted earlier and it seems very plausible to me. The poster was closely involved in the development and suggests the original estimates by the QS were badly out. 

Therein lies the issue that those questioning the costs are arguing about. 

 

If the "budget correction" was £6m as suggested, then would the club have embarked on such a development at a cost of £18m, or would they have gone for something less ambitious, but more affordable.

 

Assuming that the original estimates were so far out (c. 50%) then the club has yet to admit that failing as being the mot significant element of the increased expenditure. All that we have told is that the club has upped the quality of the finish and spent money on additional items.

 

Despite the £6.8m from benefactors (more than the suggested budgeting correction), the club still has debts attached to the development and a further £1.5m minimum to complete the job.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Footballfirst

[davemclaren]

7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Therein lies the issue that those questioning the costs are arguing about. 

 

If the "budget correction" was £6m as suggested, then would the club have embarked on such a development at a cost of £18m, or would they have gone for something less ambitious, but more affordable.

 

Assuming that the original estimates were so far out (c. 50%) then the club has yet to admit that failing as being the mot significant element of the increased expenditure. All that we have told is that the club has upped the quality of the finish and spent money on additional items.

 

Despite the £6.8m from benefactors (more than the suggested budgeting eorrection), the club still has debts attached to the development and a further £1.5m minimum to complete the job.

I agree. That’s the same with a lot of projects and a 10% contingency at such an early stage does seem naive. However, in my experience, sponsors ( and other stakeholders ) tend to want to get projects kicked off as they are hard to stop once up and running. Maybe method in the madness rather than madness in the method. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

6 hours ago, Vlad Magic said:

What “exactly” do you hope to achieve by discussing the cost?

I want to know if the club have spent the money wisely, Einstein.

[Ricardo Shillyshally]

7 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Therein lies the issue that those questioning the costs are arguing about. 

 

If the "budget correction" was £6m as suggested, then would the club have embarked on such a development at a cost of £18m, or would they have gone for something less ambitious, but more affordable.

 

Assuming that the original estimates were so far out (c. 50%) then the club has yet to admit that failing as being the mot significant element of the increased expenditure. All that we have told is that the club has upped the quality of the finish and spent money on additional items.

 

Despite the £6.8m from benefactors (more than the suggested budgeting correction), the club still has debts attached to the development and a further £1.5m minimum to complete the job.

There is of course a possibility that the club are looking to the QS and Architect for recompense and can't discuss matters publicly.

 

For be record - this is just a thought and not ITK.

[McCrae]

8 hours ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

And many planning deadlines are missed with contractual and financial penalties.

Agreed,  but there is a huge amount of flexibility that is applied at the discretion of the council. The pressure from a group of nursery school parents wouldn’t be anywhere near the same as the collective pressure from the total Hearts support.

[Thomaso]

42 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Agreed,  but there is a huge amount of flexibility that is applied at the discretion of the council. The pressure from a group of nursery school parents wouldn’t be anywhere near the same as the collective pressure from the total Hearts support.

You’re fighting a losing battle here.

The fact is the Club were faced with time constraints. Think we’re done here.

[HMFC86]

Apologies if I’ve missed it but has it been confirmed what we are actually doing with the second floor? More suites/offices? Or something fans can use?

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Ricardo Shillyshally said:

There is of course a possibility that the club are looking to the QS and Architect for recompense and can't discuss matters publicly.

 

For be record - this is just a thought and not ITK.

That is not the case.

[McCrae]

14 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

You’re fighting a losing battle here.

The fact is the Club were faced with time constraints. Think we’re done here.

Not at all. The lack of push back from the club regarding time scales displays inexperience and poor project management skills. 
If the  excuse for not fully scoping out the project before it was started is that we had to because the Council forced us to make a quick decision it’s a pretty poor one.

Through out the build of the new stand it has been managed poorly. Forgetting to order the seats is a great example of basic mistakes being made by people running the project that don’t have the skills to take the job on.