Labour

[maroonlegions]

16 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

BOT springs to mind.

Troll springs to mind. 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by maroonlegions

[maroonlegions]

32 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

It would be nice it you offered your own views instead of stupid and usually incorrect memes .

 

So what is incorrect with these last memes then , or are they  just pissing you and the rest of red tories off because they are factual.

 

It would be nice it you could stop nick picking on some of my posts that sometimes just contain memes and no views of my own. That is what you are doing though, sneaky trolling, sad as feck.

 

You  really want me to embarrass you and show you  my posts on here that DO contain my own SUPPORTING views  with supporting memes as well. There have been other posters on here who have posted memes only sweet cheeks, dont see you trolling them.  It would be nice if you could be more consistent, and i dare say ,more fairer ,(than this current  Tory junta), when it come to your pedantic slaverings. 

[JimKongUno]

17 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

 

The far right  and red tories within the Labour party are fecking shiting a Corbyn lead Labour,  government. One  thing to come out of this though is that its smoking out the red tories within the Labour party.

 

 

 

 

 

The whole country are shiting a corbyn led government

[Geoff the Mince]

9 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

 

So what is incorrect with these last memes then , or are they  just pissing you and the rest of red tories off because they are factual.

 

It would be nice it you could stop nick picking on some of my posts that sometimes just contain memes and no views of my own. That is what you are doing though, sneaky trolling, sad as feck.

 

You  really want me to embarrass you and show you  my posts on here that DO contain my own SUPPORTING views  with supporting memes as well. There have been other posters on here who have posted memes only sweet cheeks, dont see you trolling them.  It would be nice if you could be more consistent, and i dare say ,more fairer ,(than this current  Tory junta), when it come to your pedantic slaverings. 

Well you did get it wrong on Rees Mogg's house . 

 

You may be correct that The Queen is a lizard .

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

30 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

The Blairites will do absolutely anything to hold on to their comfy way of control and influence even if it meant forming a new party. 

 

We have had a couple of golden opportunities of backing the left, and we have deliberately backed down letting the tories persecute the poor. Kinnock could have backed Hatton, and caused chaos for thatcher, but Kinnock was thinking of his glorious future.And Mandelson, Johnson Blair Hillary Benn, or who ever thought up 172 resignations, could have backed JC and forced a No confidence vote straight after the Brexit vote.

 

Of course, this is an establishment effort to prevent JC getting power, but just like JC attracting more because of what he is since 2015, I hope this will bring even more because of what we are not, -----Self serving mealy mouthed bullies, who shout Bully or anti-semetic racist every time they are called out. Watching PMQs today I am incensed that I am being described by "ASSOCIATION"  as institutionally Anti-Semitic just because i believe in Corbyns polices for the many and not the few.

 

The far right  and red tories within the Labour party are fecking shiting a Corbyn lead Labour,  government. One  thing to come out of this though is that its smoking out the red tories within the Labour party.

 

 

So what is incorrect with these last memes then , or are they  just pissing you and the rest of red tories off because they are factual.

 

It would be nice it you could stop nick picking on some of my posts that sometimes just contain memes and no views of my own. That is what you are doing though, sneaky trolling, sad as feck.

 

You  really want me to embarrass you and show you  my posts on here that DO contain my own SUPPORTING views  with supporting memes as well. There have been other posters on here who have posted memes only sweet cheeks, dont see you trolling them.  It would be nice if you could be more consistent, and i dare say ,more fairer ,(than this current  Tory junta), when it come to your pedantic slaverings. 

 

 

 

 

 

well said 

[Boris]

19 minutes ago, JimKongUno said:

 

The whole country are shiting a corbyn led government

Well if that's the case they neednt worry because the whole country won't vote for it! 

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

Well if that's the case they neednt worry because the whole country won't vote for it! 

 

40% vote in 2017

 

Presumably that was impossible too. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results

[AlphonseCapone]

Just an innocent observation but Labour supporters come across as very immature and angry. At least the online personas. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

40% vote in 2017

 

Presumably that was impossible too. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results

Yes another myth buster as such. Yes they didn't get elected but 40% vote was impressive . shhushh dont tell the MSM that though. 

[ri Alban]

What would happen if the government lost another 10 or so Mps. Would that trigger an election?

[LeftBack]

51 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said:

I don't like discussing politics but noticed Cameron lifting his chinless head above the parapet today, disagreeing with the three Tories who buggered off.

 

The architect of this farce should really lie low, I would suggest.

There is probably no one of any political persuasion who would/could disagree with you. 

[Mikey1874]

9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

What would happen if the government lost another 10 or so Mps. Would that trigger an election?

 

Need to go through the vote of no confidence process again. 

 

If loses vote has about 2 weeks to reorganize and win another vote. If loses a second vote there is a general election. 

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Need to go through the vote of no confidence process again. 

 

If loses vote has about 2 weeks to reorganize and win another vote. If loses a second vote there is a general election. 

?

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Need to go through the vote of no confidence process again. 

 

If loses vote has about 2 weeks to reorganize and win another vote. If loses a second vote there is a general election. 

Thanks too. I did wonder what would happen .  But they would probably win a vote of No confidence again as most MPs would put their personal interests over the nation ( ie an Income as opposed to possible unemployment !)

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

What would happen if the government lost another 10 or so Mps. Would that trigger an election?

 

Losing 5 would wipe out the notional majority of the axis of arse.

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Losing 5 would wipe out the notional majority of the axis of arse.

Something the Maybot would be concerned about if Labour weren't block voting with her on Brexit. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Sky News breaking news ticker tape.

 

Derek Hatton has been suspended from the Labour party.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Sky News breaking news ticker tape.

 

Derek Hatton has been suspended from the Labour party.

 

Within a day? ?

[XB52]

3 hours ago, Geoff the Mince said:

Are Ed Milliband , David Lammy and Emily Thornberry also Zionists ? They support the group .

 

Do you hate everything Israeli ?  They have a name for that .

 

 

I hate the zionist/racist policies of Israel, yes I do. They should be treated in the exact same way as the racist apartheid government of South Africa was treated (eventually). 

[maroonlegions]

A Tory with a humanitarian conscious, had to be a least one i suppose.  Tory Heidi Allen resignation speech from her  Tory serving elected  cooperate elite party is bang on the candy.  

 

No doubt the BBC and the rest of the far right Tory junta media will in some firm or another ignore it or spin it.

 

But just  what the  the loony , nasty and dangerous Corbyn lefties  have been saying since Tory austerity targeted the less well off,  enough is enough. 

 

Heidi Allen savages Tory welfare policies in damning resignation speech

 

“It shouldn’t be this hard. I believed I was part of a party who collaboratively welcomed knowledge and had the empathy to feel. But I have slowly but surely realised that I am not. I can no longer represent a government and party who can’t open their eyes to the suffering endured by the most vulnerable in society. Suffering we have deepened whilst having the power to fix.” - Heidi Allen.

 

Not one Tory spin doctor on here can deny she has a very valid point, a point, that this present government serve the very rich. Its time those in the Tory party manned up/showed some form of respect for the less well off. In fact became a bit fecking human. 

 

 

[Geoff the Mince]

1 minute ago, XB52 said:

I hate the zionist/racist policies of Israel, yes I do. They should be treated in the exact same way as the racist apartheid government of South Africa was treated (eventually). 

Well at least your honest .

[Ulysses]

32 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Sky News breaking news ticker tape.

 

Derek Hatton has been suspended from the Labour party.

 

 

[Victorian]

47 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Something the Maybot would be concerned about if Labour weren't block voting with her on Brexit. 

 

But another confidence motion is a whole different prospect.    

 

A confidence vote (two in fact) that succeeded would dissolve parliament and trigger an election.     In principle,    MPs are not only up for re-election but are also no longer MPs at all until re-elected.     Such a scenario could just persuade / incentivise significantly more of them to jump over to IG,   if they were in a position to be a party and fight an election.     They're not yet but may be in the future.

 

If a Brexit deal does eventually go through and the backstop remains,   the DUP's support of May's circus government ends.    Hugely increasing the prospect of an election.     It could be too soon for a new party.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Victorian

[maroonlegions]

15 minutes ago, XB52 said:

I hate the zionist/racist policies of Israel, yes I do. They should be treated in the exact same way as the racist apartheid government of South Africa was treated (eventually). 

Wasting your time mate, he has blue blinkers on. 

 

There is a very big % of Jews who reject Zionism and all its polices. He on the other hand cannot see or differentiate between the evil of being anti Semitic and the evil of Zionism. He has an agenda , like the Tory media of labelling all Corbyn  supporters as Jew hating anti Semitics. They fecking reek of it and they know it, that their wee agenda is being seen for what it actually is, a Tory sess pit of sneaky ,cowardly desperation  , based on their real  fear of a Corbyn lead Labour government.

 

What did the Tories  expect , the sheer misery of their Tory Draconian and Victorian  like polices was always going to ignite the fire of the Left, they are arrogant fools if they thought the left or even those that give a feck would just go quietly  in the night, feck em, they have a fight and they dont like it up em.

 

Your points above are bang on , we all know that the Tory goddess Thatcher once called Nelson Mandela  a terrorist. 

 

That is were they come from,  an utter self serving , me , me , me  attitude that reeks of an  arrogant and soulless type of people,   and that is why they hate Corbyn and any one who supports his polices. 

 

Apartheid is reeking in Israel, there are similarities, you are correct and dont buy  the notion that you , me or any other are who feel the same  are in any way anti Semitic . 

[maroonlegions]

11 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

 

 

[maroonlegions]

15 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

 

 

 

[Victorian]

Hatton's application is suspended and referred to the NEC.     Due to some historical comments about the Israeli government.     The comments are a bit dodgy but criticism of the Israeli government and it's policies and actions is valid,    as long as it doesn't stray into other areas.     It looks a bit murky does this.

[Governor Tarkin]

5 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

My original point is using language like scum and enemy etc is a worry trend I see these days and contributes to the really polarised world we are living in. All imo. 

 

Yup.

[Governor Tarkin]

3 hours ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

BOT springs to mind.

 

Not intelligent enough.

[AlphonseCapone]

18 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

 

 

 

 

 

Actually the first food bank in the UK was in 2000 in Salisbury. There were two in 2004. At least research your memes. 

 

http://www.foodpoverty.org.uk/food-banks/history/

 

Food-banks were in double figures by 2007-2008 actually. Honestly, think for yourself. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by AlphonseCapone

[JamboX2]

6 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Corbyn's view is similar to mine but i formed my view on the evidence i could find. Confirmation bias perhaps but nevertheless i believe the view i hold to be the most plausible and if Corbyn holds a similar view for whatever reason then fair enough. 

 

Fair enough. No issues there. But saying he's right because you think he's right doesn't make it right. Albeit I too may well be wrong

 

6 hours ago, coconut doug said:

The BBC is effectively state funded albiet in a different way to RT. The threat to remove the licence fee by Tories over the years might just have affected it's objectivity. They certainly lack it where Corbyn is concerned.

 

Hmmm not sure I agree. Reason being everyone complains about BBC bias. On all sides. Suggests a decent job of being impartial.

[JamboX2]

29 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Hatton's application is suspended and referred to the NEC.     Due to some historical comments about the Israeli government.     The comments are a bit dodgy but criticism of the Israeli government and it's policies and actions is valid,    as long as it doesn't stray into other areas.     It looks a bit murky does this.

 

Yes but he said all self-respecting Jewish people should speak out against the actions of the Israeli government. That is just bigoted. Not dodgy. It's not on. 

 

That's also not a critique of Israeli policy.

[AlphonseCapone]

4 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Yes but he said all self-respecting Jewish people should speak out against the actions of the Israeli government. That is just bigoted. Not dodgy. It's not on. 

 

That's also not a critique of Israeli policy.

 

I don't know if you've just not described it very well but why is that bigoted?

 

If the British Government done something awful and someone said all self-respecting Brits should speak out against the British Government's actions, would you find that bigoted or fair enough? 

[Cade]

"All self respecting Muslims should speak out against the actions of the Syrian/Egyptian/Pakistani/Turkish government"

 

How is that any different?

 

Israel is trying to deflect all criticism of it's openly apartheid policies by labelling any critic as an anti-semite. That in itself is anti-semitic.

[JamboX2]

11 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I don't know if you've just not described it very well but why is that bigoted?

 

If the British Government done something awful and someone said all self-respecting Brits should speak out against the British Government's actions, would you find that bigoted or fair enough? 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/derek-hatton-suspended-from-labour-over-tweet?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

Why should all Jews in any way be required to account for their views towards Israel and the actions of the Israeli state? 

 

That's the anti-semitism in that. Why should British citizens or French citizens or Australian citizens who are Jewish be accountable or required to do anything about the State of Israel.

 

Should all Catholics confirm whether they're loyalties lie with the Vatican? 

[RobboM]

In The Guardian it says

The 71-year-old has been suspended pending an investigation into a tweet he posted in 2012 blaming Jews for Israeli government policy.

The tweet, which resurfaced after he was readmitted to the party on Monday, said: “Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”


Is that it? Reading the IHRA Working Definistion of AntiSemitism I'd guess this falls under

- Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

 

[JamboX2]

11 minutes ago, Cade said:

"All self respecting Muslims should speak out against the actions of the Syrian/Egyptian/Pakistani/Turkish government"

 

How is that any different?

 

Israel is trying to deflect all criticism of it's openly apartheid policies by labelling any critic as an anti-semite. That in itself is anti-semitic.

 

Because you are asking persons of a faith to account for the acts of states who happen to have a Muslim or Jewish culture.

 

In fact I'd argue that is Islamophobic.

 

There's a big difference between being anti-Israeli and anti-semitic. Or indeed anti-Zionist and anti-semitic.

 

We don't hold all Germans responsible for the acts of Germany in WW2.

Edited February 20, 2019 by JamboX2

[Jambo-Jimbo]

32 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Actually the first food bank in the UK was in 2000 in Salisbury. There were two in 2004. At least research your memes. 

 

http://www.foodpoverty.org.uk/food-banks/history/

 

Food-banks were in double figures by 2007-2008 actually. Honestly, think for yourself. 

 

This is what happens when you lift something of fakebook without doing any research for yourself.

[AlphonseCapone]

1 minute ago, JamboX2 said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/derek-hatton-suspended-from-labour-over-tweet?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

Why should all Jews in any way be required to account for their views towards Israel and the actions of the Israeli state? 

 

That's the anti-semitism in that. Why should British citizens or French citizens or Australian citizens who are Jewish be accountable or required to do anything about the State of Israel.

 

Should all Catholics confirm whether they're loyalties lie with the Vatican? 

 

The only issue I see is he's used the word Jew when he probably should have said Israeli but given the Israeli State allows any Jew to move there and claim citizenship it's not the worst faux pas in the world. 

 

He's not literally saying every Jew has to come out and speak out against the Government in my view. It's the equivalent to those British people who marched against the Iraq war etc, he's essentially saying that not all Jewish people will agree with their Government's actions so speak up, you might make a difference. Again, he should have said Israeli. 

 

The guy might be anti-semite but if that's the evidence against him it's flimsy as hell.

[JamboX2]

12 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

The only issue I see is he's used the word Jew when he probably should have said Israeli but given the Israeli State allows any Jew to move there and claim citizenship it's not the worst faux pas in the world. 

 

He's not literally saying every Jew has to come out and speak out against the Government in my view. It's the equivalent to those British people who marched against the Iraq war etc, he's essentially saying that not all Jewish people will agree with their Government's actions so speak up, you might make a difference. Again, he should have said Israeli. 

 

The guy might be anti-semite but if that's the evidence against him it's flimsy as hell.

 

But he is. 

 

And again I come back to the idea that citizens are not responsible for the actions of their government. You and I are no more responsible as British citizens for the actions of the state in Kenya against the Mau-Mau. Nor should all Jewish people feel or be to told to feel as though they must stand up and be counted in criticising Israel. 

 

Would this in anyway be acceptable if it was calling on all self-respecting sunni muslims to criticise the actions of Saudi Arabia? No. It'd be bigotry. 

 

When JFK, the only catholic president America has had, ran for office people asked him if his loyalty would be to the USA or the Vatican. That's bigoted stuff. Mixing Jewish people as followers of a faith with some idea of loyalty, belonging, responsibility to Israel is equally bigoted. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by JamboX2

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Actually the first food bank in the UK was in 2000 in Salisbury. There were two in 2004. At least research your memes. 

 

http://www.foodpoverty.org.uk/food-banks/history/

 

Food-banks were in double figures by 2007-2008 actually. Honestly, think for yourself. 

 

 

 

Ah well, it's just maroonlegions making a bollix of it again.  What harm?

[RobboM]

15 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But he is. 

 

And again I come back to the idea that citizens are not responsible for the actions of their government. You and I are no more responsible as British citizens for the actions of the state in Kenya against the Mau-Mau. Nor should all Jewish people feel or be to told to feel as though they must stand up and be counted in criticising Israel. 

 

Would this in anyway be acceptable if it was calling on all self-respecting sunni muslims to criticise the actions of Saudi Arabia? No. It'd be bigotry. 

 

When JFK, the only catholic president America has had, ran for office people asked him if his loyalty would be to the USA or the Vatican. That's bigoted stuff. Mixing Jewish people as followers of a faith with some idea of loyalty, belonging, responsibility to Israel is equally bigoted. 

But this just ends up sounding bizarre.
Are you really saying that a comparable tweet (had it existed back then) during the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya following  attrocities along similar lines
“British people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Britain!”
would be unacceptable and bigoted against British people?

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

30 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

The only issue I see is he's used the word Jew when he probably should have said Israeli but given the Israeli State allows any Jew to move there and claim citizenship it's not the worst faux pas in the world. 

 

He's not literally saying every Jew has to come out and speak out against the Government in my view. It's the equivalent to those British people who marched against the Iraq war etc, he's essentially saying that not all Jewish people will agree with their Government's actions so speak up, you might make a difference. Again, he should have said Israeli. 

 

The guy might be anti-semite but if that's the evidence against him it's flimsy as hell.

Yes its an error on his part. Those responsible for  the terrorist Govt of Israel and its policies are those who voted them in, Its that simple.  Some , probably a high majority are Jewish. Thats a fact.  However there are Jews around the world who deplore the state of Israel and actively campaign against its regime and its daily acts of genocide . Lets not beat about the bush as this is what is happening daily.  Israel also receives massive financial backing from various organisations and countries in particular the USA to continue its " expansion" 

[Ulysses]

Just now, RobboM said:

But this just ends up sounding bizarre.
Are you really saying that a comparable tweet (had it existed back then) during the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya following  attrocities along similar lines
“British people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Britain!”
would be unacceptable and bigoted against British people?

 

 

 

 

“British people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Britain!”

 

“Israeli people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”

 

“Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”

 

Spot the odd one out.  At least, I think that's what he's saying.

[Victorian]

54 minutes ago, RobboM said:

In The Guardian it says

The 71-year-old has been suspended pending an investigation into a tweet he posted in 2012 blaming Jews for Israeli government policy.

The tweet, which resurfaced after he was readmitted to the party on Monday, said: “Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”


Is that it? Reading the IHRA Working Definistion of AntiSemitism I'd guess this falls under

- Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

 

 

It does hold them as "responsible".     It asserts that they should speak out against it.

 

It's murky.     

[Ulysses]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

It does hold them as "responsible".     It asserts that they should speak out against it.

 

It's murky.     

 

 

Murky?  It's possible to defend someone calling on Israel's citizens to speak out against an action of Israel's government, but Jews generally?  Even those who are citizens of other countries? That's a different matter.

[RobboM]

14 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

“British people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Britain!”

 

“Israeli people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”

 

“Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”

 

Spot the odd one out.  At least, I think that's what he's saying.

Understood

I'm reading it slightly differently. I'm not seeing it as holding the first group responsible for the actions of the second group. To me it's comparable to a tweet from Stalin era along the lines of

“Communists with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Russia!”

Am I making this worse! ?

[Victorian]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

 

Murky?  It's possible to defend someone calling on Israel's citizens to speak out against an action of Israel's government, but Jews generally?  Even those who are citizens of other countries? That's a different matter.

 

I think that's what makes it murky.    He seems to believe that Jewish people especially should speak out.     Perhaps out of a view that Jewish people especially are more likely to be concerned by the actions of a state that is seen as the homeland of the religion.    There could be context inferred.

 

I'm not going to be a Hatton apologist though.    He's bad news in general.     I just think it's murky to nail this down as anti-semitic.

[JamboX2]

40 minutes ago, RobboM said:

But this just ends up sounding bizarre.
Are you really saying that a comparable tweet (had it existed back then) during the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya following  attrocities along similar lines
“British people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Britain!”
would be unacceptable and bigoted against British people?

 

 

 

No. It would though if it was all members of the Church of England should do so as that is the established faith.

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But he is. 

 

And again I come back to the idea that citizens are not responsible for the actions of their government. You and I are no more responsible as British citizens for the actions of the state in Kenya against the Mau-Mau. Nor should all Jewish people feel or be to told to feel as though they must stand up and be counted in criticising Israel. 

 

Would this in anyway be acceptable if it was calling on all self-respecting sunni muslims to criticise the actions of Saudi Arabia? No. It'd be bigotry. 

 

When JFK, the only catholic president America has had, ran for office people asked him if his loyalty would be to the USA or the Vatican. That's bigoted stuff. Mixing Jewish people as followers of a faith with some idea of loyalty, belonging, responsibility to Israel is equally bigoted. 

 

Yes and no. We do elect the Government. Democracy is a joint responsibility between the people and those elected. 

 

I've accepted your point on the term Jewish being used rather than Israeli but that aside, I think you're taking it far too literally. Do you disagree with the premise it's much more likely that Israeli's themselves could bring about change in regards their Governments actions than anyone else?

Edited February 20, 2019 by AlphonseCapone