Levein ( merged )

[soonbe110]

1 minute ago, iainmac said:

 

Same methodology as now. 

Fans?

[tolcross lad]

1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Agree. I haven’t made any comments re success of academy. It’s less than three years since they started recruiting boys that they believe have a chance of being established first team players. Another few years of the same required before there is any chance of a conveyor belt. However based on glimpses of the Cochrane, MacDonalds we do seem to be making progress. We are seen as the club to be at for boys 14-18 these days which is a huge change in a short period of time. Our challenge hopefully, in the future is how to build on this whilst retaining the best ones. Other clubs are already after 15-16 year olds in our academy. 

I am out of the loop these days with the younger age groups.I can only judge by what I see at u20s and those that are actually playing like Cochrane and Macdonald for the first team or the likes of Morrison Irving Paton Godinho Zanatta Buchanan who are or were  loanees whom I have seen playing for the clubs.My experience tells me to be wary of claims about prospects because so few eventually make it and so many factors come into play as young players develope.So time will tell and I hope your optimism is justified.

As far as I am concerned the Academy at this stage should not be used to vindicate Levein when the performance of the the first team should be the measure of his success. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

Relegation forum will represent a points/win ratio similar to the teams at the bottom of the league. This is what Cathro had. Surely this isn't too much for you to wrap your brain around?

Is that what Cathro had was it?? Ive wrapped my brain around it and decided it's absolute garbage. How the **** did we finish 5th then, if our points ratio was comparable to the relegated teams?? Was Diane Abbott doing the maths?? We beat Killie 5-0, Hamilton 4-0 and Motherwell away 3-0 ..plus Rangers 4-1. You cant compare post split games top 6/bottom 6...they're completely different standards. Some teams finish 7th with more points than 6th. It's an urban myth that we were in relegation form. We got 1 point from our last 5 games but it might be 1 more than we get this time. Who knows?

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

Everyone entitled to think what they like. In my book though finishing a season lower than the previous season is regression not progression.

 

Dress it up anyway you like no one in their right mind can say going backwards is progress. 

I think we went backwards under Cathro, significantly, and we were lucky that We had gained enough points under Robbie not to get dragged into the bottom six. The team was in freefall early season, evidenced by the league cup campaign, and Craig stabilised us ( avoiding relegation battles or bottom 6  as several on here predicted ) so I think I am in my right mind in thinking that we have progressed since the second half of last season. ? I have been disappointed with our progress since the winter break though. 

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Fans?

Subscribers I imagine. 

[Ray Gin]

7 minutes ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

Everyone entitled to think what they like. In my book though finishing a season lower than the previous season is regression not progression.

 

Dress it up anyway you like no one in their right mind can say going backwards is progress. 

 

It's progression from the previous manager's tenure.

 

Cathro record:   8 wins, 7 draws, 15 losses

 

Anyone in their right mind can see that Levein has improved on this.

[Section G The Place To Be]

7 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Relegation form will represent a points/win ratio similar to the teams at the bottom of the league. This is what Cathro had. Surely this isn't too much for you to wrap your brain around?

 

Very Interesting.

 

Since the beginning of February Ross County who are bottom have managed 10points want to take a guess how many league points we have managed to gather in the same time ? 

 

I look forward to you joining the ranks of us calling for Levein to go. 

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Is that what Cathro had was it?? Ive wrapped my brain around it and decided it's absolute garbage. How the **** did we finish 5th then, if our points ratio was comparable to the relegated teams?? Was Diane Abbott doing the maths?? We beat Killie 5-0, Hamilton 4-0 and Motherwell away 3-0 ..plus Rangers 4-1. You cant compare post split games top 6/bottom 6...they're completely different standards. Some teams finish 7th with more points than 6th. It's an urban myth that we were in relegation form. We got 1 point from our last 5 games but it might be 1 more than we get this time. Who knows?

 

We finished 5th because we were in second place when Neilson departed in November.

 

 

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

Very Interesting.

 

Since the beginning of February Ross County who are bottom have managed 10points want to take a guess how many league points we have managed to gather in the same time ? 

 

I look forward to you joining the ranks of us calling for Levein to go. 

 

How are they comparing over the past 6 months?

[JackLadd]

8 minutes ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

Everyone entitled to think what they like. In my book though finishing a season lower than the previous season is regression not progression.

 

Dress it up anyway you like no one in their right mind can say going backwards is progress. 

 

Especially when our newly promoted city rivals are so far ahead. If the gap extends to 20 points plus by May 13th then how can that be gauged as progress? What are we going to do to bridge that? Hope Hibs lose their best players? Stevie Clarke is also a better manager than Levein all ends up.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Is that what Cathro had was it?? Ive wrapped my brain around it and decided it's absolute garbage. How the **** did we finish 5th then, if our points ratio was comparable to the relegated teams?? Was Diane Abbott doing the maths?? We beat Killie 5-0, Hamilton 4-0 and Motherwell away 3-0 ..plus Rangers 4-1. You cant compare post split games top 6/bottom 6...they're completely different standards. Some teams finish 7th with more points than 6th. It's an urban myth that we were in relegation form. We got 1 point from our last 5 games but it might be 1 more than we get this time. Who knows?

Urban myth? Is that why we had the 11th fewest points when Neilson's games were stripped out?

 

The PE teacher was an utter disaster.

[soonbe110]

10 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Subscribers I imagine. 

Feared so. 

[Section G The Place To Be]

3 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

How are they comparing over the past 6 months?

 

Now your changing the goal posts again because again you know you have lost.

 

You said relegation form. I was showing that since the end of winter break we have amassed a massive 10 points the same as relegated team Ross County. Proving your own point that our current form is relegation material based on points compared to the teams relegated or fighting relegation. The exact criteria that would have you calling for the manager to be sacked. 

 

Before the the winter break we were still well in for a shout at 2nd and in the Scottish cup.

[Ray Gin]

5 minutes ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

Now your changing the goal posts again because again you know you have lost.

 

You said relegation form. I was showing that since the end of winter break we have amassed a massive 10 points the same as relegated team Ross County. Proving your own point that our current form is relegation material based on points compared to the teams relegated or fighting relegation. The exact criteria that would have you calling for the manager to be sacked. 

 

Before the the winter break we were still well in for a shout at 2nd and in the Scottish cup.

 

No I'm comparing Levein's entire tenure to Cathro's entire tenure, not just a cherry picked poor spell.

[RudiHMFC]

Both Cathro and Levein are shit managers, Levein probably seen some of himself in Cathro.

[Enzo Chiefo]

14 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Urban myth? Is that why we had the 11th fewest points when Neilson's games were stripped out?

 

The PE teacher was an utter disaster.

Possibly but we've not moved forward much. You cant just strip out Neilson s games. That assumes Cathro wouldn't have won any. Cathro won more games in half a season than the bottom 2 teams won in an entire season, even with the benefit of the easier bottom 6 games.

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 minutes ago, RudiHMFC said:

Both Cathro and Levein are shit managers, Levein probably seen some of himself in Cathro.

Exactly Rudi.

[Section G The Place To Be]

5 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Not I'm comparing Levein's entire tenure to Cathro's entire tenure, not just a cherry picked poor spell.

 

I played by your rules. You said relegation form. Form is current or as close to current. Your the one cherry picking wanting to now go back much earlier. 

 

Based exactly on your criteria which you specifically said earlier. Our current form is relegation material. 

 

I know that doesn’t sit well with you because you have basically admitted Levein should be sacked (based on your own criteria) 

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

I played by your rules. You said relegation form. Form is current or as close to current. Your the one cherry picking wanting to now go back much earlier. 

 

Based es exactly on your criteria which you specifically said earlier. Our current form is relegation material. 

 

I know now that doesn’t sit well with you because you have basically admitted Levein should be sacked (based on your own criteria) 

 

No, because I'm not daft enough to judge a manager on several games, only on several months.

[RudiHMFC]

2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

No, because I'm not daft enough to judge a manager on several games, only on several months.

 

Trouble is Levein had been here 5 years and has played a huge role in the football side of things during that time, let's not pretend he's just been rolled in from nowhere with the task of clearing up somebody else's mess, he's accountable in part for what went before him and he's accountable now for results and the absolute torture football we have to endure.

[Section G The Place To Be]

1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

 

 

If Levein had us continuing in the same relegation form it would be reasonable to want him booted too. We have improved considerably.

 

 

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Relegation form will represent a points/win ratio similar to the teams at the bottom of the league. This is what Cathro had. Surely this isn't too much for you to wrap your brain around?

 

7 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

No, because I'm not daft enough to judge a manager on several games, only on several months.

 

Digging deeper. 

 

You admitted that that it was ok to call for Cathros head after being in charge for a shorter term than Levein but your not daft enough to call for a managers head after only several months. 

 

You set the criteria that would have you calling for a manager to be sacked I have proved Levein meets your criteria. 

 

 

[Ray Gin]

Just now, RudiHMFC said:

 

Trouble is Levein had been here 5 years and has played a huge role in the football side of things during that time, let's not pretend he's just been rolled in from nowhere with the task of clearing up somebody else's mess, he's accountable in part for what went before him and he's accountable now for results and the absolute torture football we have to endure.

 

OK, so he's accountable for romping the Championship, finishing 3rd and also being in 2nd before the mistake (which was certainly a clanger) of appointing Cathro. 

[Ray Gin]

Just now, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

 

 

Digging deeper. 

 

You admitted that that it was ok to call for Cathros head after being in charge for a shorter term than Levein but your not daft enough to call for a managers head after only several months. 

 

You set set the criteria that would have you calling for a managers to be sacked I have proved Levein meets your criteria. 

 

Not at all. If Levein loses all of our remaining games and gets us pumped out the League Cup, I'll be joining you with a pitchfork in August.

 

[Section G The Place To Be]

2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

OK, so he's accountable for romping the Championship, finishing 3rd and also being in 2nd before the mistake (which was certainly a clanger) of appointing Cathro. 

 

 

See heres the difference. I can admit Levein quite rightly deserves credit for the championship season. The whole team deserves it and rightly so. We played a more attacking and entertaining football. 

 

We we have gone backwards since then. We are now at the point we are now finishing another season all at each other’s throats having gone backwards for a second successive season in terms of league position and teams finishing above us, and looking at a much reduced season ticket uptake as well. 

 

How is many more turgid, gutless eye bleeding games and terrible results do the fans have to do through ? How much more money does Levein get to waste before people say enough is enough.?  £100,000+  is the difference between 5th and 6th (won’t even begin to start with players wages and fees etc) if i cost my company that much I’d be out the door. 

[RudiHMFC]

12 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

OK, so he's accountable for romping the Championship, finishing 3rd and also being in 2nd before the mistake (which was certainly a clanger) of appointing Cathro. 

 

Accountable in part for what went before is what I said, what you get from Levein is the absolute bare minimum, solid at home, tragic away, terrible in the cups. Totally unspectacular football and no hope of any days in the sun at Hampden.

[Ray Gin]

5 minutes ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

 

See heres the difference. I can admit Levein quite rightly deserves credit for the championship season. The whole team deserves it and rightly so. We played a more attacking and entertaining football. 

 

We we have gone backwards since then. We are now at the point we are now finishing another season all at each other’s throats having gone backwards for a second successive season in terms of league position and teams finishing above us, and looking at a much reduced season ticket uptake as well. 

 

How is many more turgid, gutless eye bleeding games and terrible results do the fans have to do through ? How much more money does Levein get to waste before people say enough is enough.?  £100,000+  is the difference between 5th and 6th (won’t even begin to start with players wages and fees etc) if i cost my company that much I’d be out the door. 

 

And I can admit he made a clanger by appointing Cathro. He's made progress on fixing that. If he hasn't made any further progress by Autumn then I'd agree his time is up.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

52 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Possibly but we've not moved forward much. You cant just strip out Neilson s games. That assumes Cathro wouldn't have won any. Cathro won more games in half a season than the bottom 2 teams won in an entire season, even with the benefit of the easier bottom 6 games.

Cathro was judged on the games he was in charge of. Simple as that.

[sadj]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

In one measure but we’ve currently got the same points we finished last season and might finish the sason wIth marginally more. I bet we got most of last seasons points before Robbie left so we had dipped very badly under Cathro.  In my view we have progressed under Craig.  Still a heck of a long way to go though. 

Very much agree with this and many of the people who are on their high horse are the same ones who said under Cathro it was relegation form and if he stayed we’d be in a relegation battle. We have improved and not with a normal Levein style i don’t know if he is suited to trying to play a more modern style but hes certainly not playing hoofball even with a poor midfield. As I said earlier the cohension isnt there and the transition phase is awful. Im more than happy with who we brought in in January and who we targeted and i expect that level of progression to continue through the summer window along with a good preseason. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

15 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Cathro was judged on the games he was in charge of. Simple as that.

Exactly..and that is why we finished 5th. His 8 victories in half a season usurped both Hamilton and ICT, over an entire season, with easier games. We were well clear of relegation last year, using Cathro and/or Neilsons stats. The relegation form did not exist.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Exactly..and that is why we finished 5th. His 8 victories in half a season usurped both Hamilton and ICT, over an entire season, with easier games. We were well clear of relegation last year, using Cathro and/or Neilsons stats. The relegation form did not exist.

What an achievement!

 

And carrying that relegation FORM into this season deservedly got him emptied.

[Enzo Chiefo]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

What an achievement!

 

And carrying that relegation FORM into this season deservedly got him emptied.

Do you get relegated for losing in the League Cup? Levein's man Daly certainly had us on a run of relegation form but Cathro ? No. A case of mistaken identity Geoff.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Do you get relegated for losing in the League Cup? Levein's man Daly certainly had us on a run of relegation form but Cathro ? No. A case of mistaken identity Geoff.

Good try. Losing to Peterhead and being outplayed by Dunfermline = relegation form.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

FAO Enzo: that we're crap under Levein does not somehow absolve what a never-ending disgrace we were under Cathro. Who most certainly did oversee relegation form, and in normal circumstances, was the undisputed worst manager in our entire history (in abnormal circumstances, it's Malofeev).

 

Be very careful not to overegg the Levein Out pudding by making up nonsense. We have Robbie Neilson to thank for finishing 5th last season; Craig Levein to thank for finishing 6th this season. One man's excellent work was ruined by Cathro; the other inherited an absolute shambles created by Cathro.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

19 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

FAO Enzo: that we're crap under Levein does not somehow absolve what a never-ending disgrace we were under Cathro. Who most certainly did oversee relegation form, and in normal circumstances, was the undisputed worst manager in our entire history (in abnormal circumstances, it's Malofeev).

 

Be very careful not to overegg the Levein Out pudding by making up nonsense. We have Robbie Neilson to thank for finishing 5th last season; Craig Levein to thank for finishing 6th this season. One man's excellent work was ruined by Cathro; the other inherited an absolute shambles created by Cathro.

Indeed. Cathro made Podgy Hands look like a world beater!

[Kiwidoug]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Urban myth? Is that why we had the 11th fewest points when Neilson's games were stripped out?

 

The PE teacher was an utter disaster.

Are you still backing Gary Locke to take over in the summer?  I'm right behind you if you are.

 

This Levein bloke couldny manage a haggis supper.  We used to thrash Hibs under Lockie.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

Are you still backing Gary Locke to take over in the summer?  I'm right behind you if you are.

 

This Levein bloke couldny manage a haggis supper.  We used to thrash Hibs under Lockie.

Just go away. You are turning into a more literate version of Morgan.

[Kiwidoug]

6 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Just go away. You are turning into a more literate version of Morgan.

Thats below the belt that is.

[NANOJAMBO]

1 hour ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

 

See heres the difference. I can admit Levein quite rightly deserves credit for the championship season. The whole team deserves it and rightly so. We played a more attacking and entertaining football. 

 

We we have gone backwards since then. We are now at the point we are now finishing another season all at each other’s throats having gone backwards for a second successive season in terms of league position and teams finishing above us, and looking at a much reduced season ticket uptake as well. 

 

How is many more turgid, gutless eye bleeding games and terrible results do the fans have to do through ? How much more money does Levein get to waste before people say enough is enough.?  £100,000+  is the difference between 5th and 6th (won’t even begin to start with players wages and fees etc) if i cost my company that much I’d be out the door. 

Nothing personal but, No he doesn't. He made it clear Robbie had the final say (in the shit show of recruitment). He wasn't involved in the first team in any way (unless Robbie wanted otherwise) . He can't be credited with any of Robbie's success and then be absolved on here so regularly of the failings since. We are always told on here CL did the academy and he has done a great job (not arguing with that because without the school kids we wouldn't have any subs to play or any creativity in the first team) - he has been at pains to distance himself from the Cathro fiasco and that's fair enough. He appointed the guy to do  job and he stood back and watched it all happen.

 

Which now leads on to the whole football "governance" at the club - we are told Cathro sacrificed fitness and worked the guys  on tactical work . According to one poster on here the players basically refused to work under Cathro and the team lacked fitness (as we are told endlessly on here and to which CL himself alluded). 

 

We had a lack of match fitness (presumably no fitness coaches reporting this to anyone , or if we did have fitness coaches they kept quiet about it) - but amazingly this fact is swallowed up on here without question. It's all down to Cathro's failings and his methods which were applied without question or any kind of scrutiny .  Just think about that. 

 

What gets missed on here is , this is a multi million pound business in which the key business deliverable wasn't under any proper scrutiny. AB put her faith in Levein  whose protege failed on so many levels. Since then , his team of coaches have demonstrated they cannot do anything in adversity  and get this team playing.  

This fiasco and the turgid displays isn't just about Levein , it's about the whole way the football was (or not) run properly from the outset. 

 

Levein will get next season because there is no other option and the board have no clue how to run football at a football club. By all means keep Levein but the back room staff needs to be addressed.  

 

How many turgid displays do we have to go through ? There is no limit under Levein. 

 

We will get the same crap next season. 

 

Nine signing did he say ? Does anyone seriously believe this chat ?

[sadj]

2 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Feared so. 

Indeed

[siegementality]

Has anyone told Levein that it’s 2018 yet?

[Kiwidoug]

Nano is correct.  There is a limit to how many below par performances can occur before Hearts really begin to suffer.  Imo we are close to that limit now.  Another loss to Hibs will tip us over the edge.  Words like turgid and dreadful to describe our performances have become the norm.

 

I expect i am contradicting myself in saying that Levein has to go.  I say that because I think a breath of fresh air and vigour is needed from the head coach to motivate everyone.

 

We've had false dawns under Levein as we did under Cathro.  That's all they were.

 

Is the Motherwell guy the answer and would he be interested? Seems good to me.

[mitch41]

3 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

It's progression from the previous manager's tenure.

 

Cathro record:   8 wins, 7 draws, 15 losses

 

Anyone in their right mind can see that Levein has improved on this.

Is that how you judge Levein HE'S BETTER THAN CATHRO.

Your having a laugh.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

Is that how you judge Levein HE'S BETTER THAN CATHRO.

Your having a laugh.

The point, Mitch, was that he had to start with the pile of shite Cathro left behind.

 

But you knew that.

[Kiwidoug]

Hibs haven't finished 2nd I'n the league for 42 years.

 

42 years.

 

Maybe Craig's swansong will be to ensure that extends to 43 years before bowing out.

 

Got bored counting how often we've finished 2nd in that period.

[Hendricks]

1 minute ago, Kiwidoug said:

Hibs haven't finished 2nd I'n the league for 42 years.

 

42 years.

 

Maybe Craig's swansong will be to ensure that extends to 43 years before bowing out.

 

Got bored counting how often we've finished 2nd in that period.

 

 

They hadn't won the Scottish Cup for 100+ years either until this Hearts regime decided it was time to assist them in ending that historic run too. Quite the list of accomplishments they are starting to put together with our help.

[Kiwidoug]

10 minutes ago, Hendricks said:

 

 

They hadn't won the Scottish Cup for 100+ years either until this Hearts regime decided it was time to assist them in ending that historic run too. Quite the list of accomplishments they are starting to put together with our help.

Yes, they did win that championship blockbuster final with our assistance and celebrated with a riot.

 

I honestly think it's important we lose to Aberdeen given my intense dislike of them and my utter disdain for lennon.

 

43 years and counting.

[BobbyJenkins]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

The point, Mitch, was that he had to start with the pile of shite Cathro left behind.

 

But you knew that.

Some folk just can’t do the simple context.

[Thomaso]

16 hours ago, Bez said:

 

Its a pretty accurate description tbh. I know we’ve had our differences mate, but can you do me a wee favour? Can you agree Periscope the meeting between yourself and Phil at the Foundation Plaza? Think it would make a good viral video. ??

 

It's no gonna happen Bez - I'm a black belt in embroidery! 

[jack D and coke]

Have to be honest it’s getting harder to disagree with Leveins detractors. The more I think about that tragic performance on Sunday the more you realise you’re in for more of the same next season away from home. Trying to frustrate teams, bore everybody to death and try nick something. Who the **** wants to watch that? Who wants to pay for that? 

 

 

[Thomaso]

15 hours ago, WageThief said:

 

Weird stuff.  We were top of the league at the time!   Were such results common at the time?  I mean, a top of the table team losing 7-1 AT HOME to anyone is pretty unheard of now.

 

Although it wasn't the worst result at Tynecastle that season I suppose anyway.

 

The story at the time was that seemingly before the Dundee match the Board told the players there would be no bonus for winning the League.