Hard Brexit

[jake]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You should listen sometime, get a good well rounded opinion on all view points. 

???? 

 

London

????

British conversation

??

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, jake said:

???? 

 

London

????

British conversation

??

 

Nick Ferrari 6-10 am is your very thing. Ian Dale 4-6pm is worth a listen too. 

[jake]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Nick Ferrari 6-10 am is your very thing. Ian Dale 4-6pm is worth a listen too. 

I will try to remember mate.

Unlikely though.

Just tickling yer ribs space.

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, jake said:

I will try to remember mate.

Unlikely though.

Just tickling yer ribs space.

 

?

[John Findlay]

47 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

People talking down a "hard Brexit" should Stop Talking Britain Down. Britain did very well for itself before 1973 (very well indeed at points) and Britain has never relied chiefly on "Europe" for trade. The EU barely enjoys any economic growth, while the rest of the world does. EU fans tend not to admit this or care about it. They're more concerned with presumed moral superiority. What did the EU do in Yugoslavia? Nothing. What did NATO do? Led by the UK and the USA? Establish the peace.

Britain crippled by strikes. Power cuts and the telly finishing at 10.30 pm. Not to mention the three day week. Aye we were doing just fine.

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

People talking down a "hard Brexit" should Stop Talking Britain Down. Britain did very well for itself before 1973 (very well indeed at points) and Britain has never relied chiefly on "Europe" for trade. The EU barely enjoys any economic growth, while the rest of the world does. EU fans tend not to admit this or care about it. They're more concerned with presumed moral superiority. What did the EU do in Yugoslavia? Nothing. What did NATO do? Led by the UK and the USA? Establish the peace.

 

You can't compare what a non-militarised EU done in Yugoslavia compared to an organisation that purely exists for combat. Well you can, but it's silly. Especially when most EU countries are in NATO.

 

The EU just reported its strongest growth in 10 years, 2.5% compared to 1.8% in the UK, its lowest growth since 2012.

 

Your nationalism clouds your views.

[Gorgiewave]

8 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Britain crippled by strikes. Power cuts and the telly finishing at 10.30 pm. Not to mention the three day week. Aye we were doing just fine.

 

And who or what solved that?

 

A:

 

B:

[John Findlay]

You do know it was a Conservative government that took us into the then EEC?

[Space Mackerel]

40 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

You do know it was a Conservative government that took us into the then EEC?

 

Another riddy for the troll from Madrid

 

 

[Ulysses]

I wonder is it true that you are what you eat.....

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/17/revealed-us-uk-rightwing-thinktanks-talks-to-ditch-eu-safety-checks

[jake]

So a quick look across the wonderfullpolitical landscape of the EU.

 

At number 1 rising poverty in Italy threatens the social fabric of the country as ministers threaten to deport half a million immigrants.

 

Quick trip to Germany where a coalition was met with relief but the anti Islamic AFD is now firmly placed as Germany's second party.

 

And over to France where they are threatening to jail any immigrant with fake id and now talk of state intervention in Islamic faith tearing up a century of secular tradition.

 

So wonderfully rosy compared to big bad Britain who want their population to eat bad food and be exploited by bad bosses.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

27 minutes ago, jake said:

So a quick look across the wonderfullpolitical landscape of the EU.

 

At number 1 rising poverty in Italy threatens the social fabric of the country as ministers threaten to deport half a million immigrants.

 

Quick trip to Germany where a coalition was met with relief but the anti Islamic AFD is now firmly placed as Germany's second party.

 

And over to France where they are threatening to jail any immigrant with fake id and now talk of state intervention in Islamic faith tearing up a century of secular tradition.

 

So wonderfully rosy compared to big bad Britain who want their population to eat bad food and be exploited by bad bosses.

 

 

You missed Poland where the Government is making it illegal to mention the not insignificant role Poles made in the genocide of its Jewish population. As recently as 1986 Martin Gilbert in his then thought to be definitive history of the Holocaust wrote of a Polish village in which hundreds of Jews were rounded up and locked in a barn which was then set alight, burning them alive. Gilbert wrote of it as a purely German atrocity. In fact it is now known that  it was perpetrated by local Poles with little or no German involvement. The Polish government is making it illegal to mention this.

 

But the UK is backward and racist.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Francis Albert

[jake]

15 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

You missed Poland where the Government is making it illegal to mention the not insignificant role Poles made in the genocide of its Jewish population. As recently as 1986 Martin Gilbert in his then thought to be definitive history of the Holocaust wrote of a Polish village in which hundreds of Jews were rounded up and locked in a barn which was then set alight, burning them alive. Gilbert wrote of it as a purely German atrocity. In fact it is now known that  it was perpetrated by local Poles with little or no German involvement. The Polish government is making it illegal to mention this.

 

But the UK is backward and racist.

Could go round quite a few EU countries where the far right are established in the political make up.

 

Hungary Austria even the liberal Dutch.

The UK is no doubt centre right but there is just no comparison with most of Europe.

And you have to wonder if this were to start to reflect in EU politics what kind of power that would give .

 

 

[Boris]

Don't you think it would be better, noble even, to be involved in such a union and set these right wingers, um, right?

 

The EU has its faults, but to use domestic political unrest in some member states as proof that Brexit is the right thing is flawed thinking, IMO.

 

That isn't why people voted for Brexit. The grubby nationalism shown by sections of the leave campaign is every bit as insidious as those far right movements across Europe. If anything it shows a collapse of "liberal", enlightened thinking that has defined Europe, certainly Western Europe, post war.

 

But what it also shows is, IMO, the failure of neoliberalism and globalisation and also the narcissism of the West.

 

If ever there was a time for us all to stand together it is now, rather than splinter and allow these narrow minded, self interested groups "speak" for the "people". Because, quite frankly, they don't.

 

Regardless of whether we are in the EU or not, Britain can never be isolated from the continent. History shows us this.

[jake]

9 minutes ago, Boris said:

Don't you think it would be better, noble even, to be involved in such a union and set these right wingers, um, right?

 

The EU has its faults, but to use domestic political unrest in some member states as proof that Brexit is the right thing is flawed thinking, IMO.

 

That isn't why people voted for Brexit. The grubby nationalism shown by sections of the leave campaign is every bit as insidious as those far right movements across Europe. If anything it shows a collapse of "liberal", enlightened thinking that has defined Europe, certainly Western Europe, post war.

 

But what it also shows is, IMO, the failure of neoliberalism and globalisation and also the narcissism of the West.

 

If ever there was a time for us all to stand together it is now, rather than splinter and allow these narrow minded, self interested groups "speak" for the "people". Because, quite frankly, they don't.

 

Regardless of whether we are in the EU or not, Britain can never be isolated from the continent. History shows us this.

I'm afraid you are not quite grasping what's happened and what's happening .

 

These narrow minded self interested groups as you call them are in fact addressing what people are concerned about.

Oh and by the way it's not just right wing parties who are questioning the EU.

Italian politics are talking of universal benefits which flout EU rules.

Left wing politicians now talk of migrant control.

There are 200 000 immigrants in and around Rome.

With over half living in inhumane conditions according to charitys.

You are right about the failure of neoliberalism Boris.

The EU is the epitome of this.

An organisation ran by bankers.

 

The trouble for me is the left in this country should be brexit .

That the left in this country now seems to have its narrative from the Guardian is a sickener.

And to question  any of it you are labelled as some type of racist with a attitude of a Torie.

 

We imo have been lucky .

Europe is in trouble .

Fiscally socially and the UK have won a watch with our early exit.

 

 

[jake]

Italian elections are 4th of March.

 

[Francis Albert]

56 minutes ago, jake said:

Could go round quite a few EU countries where the far right are established in the political make up.

 

Hungary Austria even the liberal Dutch.

The UK is no doubt centre right but there is just no comparison with most of Europe.

And you have to wonder if this were to start to reflect in EU politics what kind of power that would give .

 

 

No far right party in the UK has ever made the electoral impact that the far right has and is making in much of the rest of the EU.

So those desperate to portray the UK as racist and proto-fascist have been reduced to categorising the Conservative Party as  neo-fascist, which it is not, and Leave voters as racists..

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

The grubby nationalism shown by sections of the leave campaign is every bit as insidious as those far right movements across Europe.

 

As Kate Hoey demonstrated when she recklessly put her narrow-minded nationalism ahead of the NI political process, and she's not even a Tory.

[Ulysses]

Jeremy Corbyn says the UK will have to have a customs union after Brexit.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/20/uk-will-have-to-have-a-customs-union-post-brexit-says-corbyn

[John Findlay]

5 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Jeremy Corbyn says the UK will have to have a customs union after Brexit.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/20/uk-will-have-to-have-a-customs-union-post-brexit-says-corbyn

He can say what he wants. He is not the government.

[Boris]

7 hours ago, jake said:

I'm afraid you are not quite grasping what's happened and what's happening .

 

These narrow minded self interested groups as you call them are in fact addressing what people are concerned about.

Oh and by the way it's not just right wing parties who are questioning the EU.

Italian politics are talking of universal benefits which flout EU rules.

Left wing politicians now talk of migrant control.

There are 200 000 immigrants in and around Rome.

With over half living in inhumane conditions according to charitys.

You are right about the failure of neoliberalism Boris.

The EU is the epitome of this.

An organisation ran by bankers.

 

The trouble for me is the left in this country should be brexit .

That the left in this country now seems to have its narrative from the Guardian is a sickener.

And to question  any of it you are labelled as some type of racist with a attitude of a Torie.

 

We imo have been lucky .

Europe is in trouble .

Fiscally socially and the UK have won a watch with our early exit.

 

 

 

Never thought of you as a fascist apologist Jake, but that's what your second sentence above suggests.

 

Universal benefits that flout eu rules? More detail please. Is it different from Finlands universal income ? Or different from this https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/articles/industrial-relations-law-and-regulation/italy-reforms-to-system-of-unemployment-benefits

 

Europe is in trouble, but turning our back to our continental colleagues isn't going to fix anything. If anything it may make matters worse. IMO.

[Boris]

34 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

He can say what he wants. He is not the government.

 

Yet?

[John Findlay]

44 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yet?

Despite how bad the Tories appear. Middle England won't be voting for Corbyn. Whether we like it or not. That is where UK elections are won and lost.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

Despite how bad the Tories appear. Middle England won't be voting for Corbyn. Whether we like it or not. That is where UK elections are won and lost.

 

Leader of a coalition perhaps?

[Francis Albert]

11 hours ago, Boris said:

Don't you think it would be better, noble even, to be involved in such a union and set these right wingers, um, right?

 

The EU has its faults, but to use domestic political unrest in some member states as proof that Brexit is the right thing is flawed thinking, IMO.

 

That isn't why people voted for Brexit. The grubby nationalism shown by sections of the leave campaign is every bit as insidious as those far right movements across Europe. If anything it shows a collapse of "liberal", enlightened thinking that has defined Europe, certainly Western Europe, post war.

 

But what it also shows is, IMO, the failure of neoliberalism and globalisation and also the narcissism of the West.

 

If ever there was a time for us all to stand together it is now, rather than splinter and allow these narrow minded, self interested groups "speak" for the "people". Because, quite frankly, they don't.

 

Regardless of whether we are in the EU or not, Britain can never be isolated from the continent. History shows us this.

The "grubby nationalists" of Scotland reacted to Brexit with glee and the promise of an early Indy ref 2. No question of standing together with fellow citizens of the Union against Brexit and the damage it could do. Cut and run instead.

 

Simon Jenkins (one of the few Guardian writers who makes sense) pointed out last week that in fact the UK has historically always stood somewhat apart from Europe, and apart from generally supporting free trade, has sought to avoid except where necessary involvement in European affairs. Major involvements tended to in response to disastrous political/military attempts (Napoleon, Hitler) to unite Europe politically under central power. His conclusion - for the UK and the other nations of Europe - customs union and free trade yes. Ever greater political union no. In the long term that will I think be the  the inevitable failure of the undemocratic bureaucratic monster of the EU.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Never thought of you as a fascist apologist Jake, but that's what your second sentence above suggests.

 

Universal benefits that flout eu rules? More detail please. Is it different from Finlands universal income ? Or different from this https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/articles/industrial-relations-law-and-regulation/italy-reforms-to-system-of-unemployment-benefits

 

Europe is in trouble, but turning our back to our continental colleagues isn't going to fix anything. If anything it may make matters worse. IMO.

In the US it used to be reds under the bed. Here it is now fascists under the bed.

 

Immigration is not the only issue but to take that. There is nothing fascist about citizens of Italy or the UK wanting immigration to their countries to be controlled, as it is in Australia, Canada, the USA, China, Japan etc etc. If mainstream political parties not only ignore that wish, but portray anyone who shares that wish as racist and fascist then voters unfortunately but  inevitably are likely turn to the only political parties who are prepared to address the issue

Edited February 21, 2018 by Francis Albert

[The Comedian]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

Europe is in trouble, but turning our back to our continental colleagues isn't going to fix anything. If anything it may make matters worse. IMO.

 

Genuine question. So what?

[jake]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Never thought of you as a fascist apologist Jake, but that's what your second sentence above suggests.

 

Universal benefits that flout eu rules? More detail please. Is it different from Finlands universal income ? Or different from this https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/articles/industrial-relations-law-and-regulation/italy-reforms-to-system-of-unemployment-benefits

 

Europe is in trouble, but turning our back to our continental colleagues isn't going to fix anything. If anything it may make matters worse. IMO.

Not apologising for them.

They have gained because any legitimate concerns are not being engagedby others.

Labour heartlands in the north of England are now snobbishly dismissed by the Labour movement in this country.

That's undeniable.

[jake]

45 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

In the US it used to be reds under the bed. Here it is now fascists under the bed.

 

Immigration is not the only issue but to take that. There is nothing fascist about citizens of Italy or the UK wanting immigration to their countries to be controlled, as it is in Australia, Canada, the USA, China, Japan etc etc. If mainstream political parties not only ignore that wish, but portray anyone who shares that wish as racist and fascist then voters unfortunately but  inevitably are likely turn to the only political parties who are prepared to address the issue

That's what's happening.

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Leader of a coalition perhaps?

No. Labour don't want a coalition. They want outright power. This is so they can implement policies they won't tell the voters about during an election campaign.

[Francis Albert]

I think if jezza goes for a soft brexit (more accurately brexit in name only) he is lilely to lose more labour votes than he gains tory ones

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

The "grubby nationalists" of Scotland reacted to Brexit with glee and the promise of an early Indy ref 2. No question of standing together with fellow citizens of the Union against Brexit and the damage it could do. Cut and run instead.

 

Simon Jenkins (one of the few Guardian writers who makes sense) pointed out last week that in fact the UK has historically always stood somewhat apart from Europe, and apart from generally supporting free trade, has sought to avoid except where necessary involvement in European affairs. Major involvements tended to in response to disastrous political/military attempts (Napoleon, Hitler) to unite Europe politically under central power. His conclusion - for the UK and the other nations of Europe - customs union and free trade yes. Ever greater political union no. In the long term that will I think be the  the inevitable failure of the undemocratic bureaucratic monster of the EU.

 

I'd agree with Jenkins regards his opinion about increased political union.  The UK has never wanted that, rightly imo.  I'd also agree regards customs union, facilitating free trade.  Hard Brexit will not provide this though.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

In the US it used to be reds under the bed. Here it is now fascists under the bed.

 

Immigration is not the only issue but to take that. There is nothing fascist about citizens of Italy or the UK wanting immigration to their countries to be controlled, as it is in Australia, Canada, the USA, China, Japan etc etc. If mainstream political parties not only ignore that wish, but portray anyone who shares that wish as racist and fascist then voters unfortunately but  inevitably are likely turn to the only political parties who are prepared to address the issue

 

I never said that it was.

 

My comment was regards legitimising fascist or extreme right wing groups for capitalising on this.  

[Boris]

1 hour ago, The Comedian said:

 

Genuine question. So what?

 

Because eventually we would become embroiled.

[Boris]

52 minutes ago, jake said:

Not apologising for them.

They have gained because any legitimate concerns are not being engagedby others.

Labour heartlands in the north of England are now snobbishly dismissed by the Labour movement in this country.

That's undeniable.

 

Don't disagree with you regards how they have capitalised on the issue, but I stand by what you describe them as - narrow-minded self interest groups.

 

[Boris]

15 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

No. Labour don't want a coalition. They want outright power. This is so they can implement policies they won't tell the voters about during an election campaign.

 

We shall see.

[Boris]

12 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I think if jezza goes for a soft brexit (more accurately brexit in name only) he is lilely to lose more labour votes than he gains tory ones

 

Again, we shall see.

[The Brow]

Know what I love the most about Brexit? 

 

The fact that absolutely nobody has a clue what will happen but nobody will admit it. 

 

this thread is absolute proof of that. Folk with no idea listening to a load of biased opinion pieces then deciding its fact. 

 

the only things that have come out are;

 

It will cost an incredible amount of money

It wont be a hard brexit by any means

Theresa May will get binned

 

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I never said that it was.

 

My comment was regards legitimising fascist or extreme right wing groups for capitalising on this.  

My comment was about the failure of mainstream parties (and indeed the EU) to address legitimate concerns

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

My comment was about the failure of mainstream parties (and indeed the EU) to address legitimate concerns

 

So why quote me then?  

 

FWIW, I don't disagree with the failure of mainstream parties to react and amend policy as required.  Or to educate and defend why these things exist.

 

Britain had the opportunity to rally support within the EU to do something about it, instead it has basically ran away from the problem.

[Francis Albert]

20 minutes ago, The Brow said:

Know what I love the most about Brexit? 

 

The fact that absolutely nobody has a clue what will happen but nobody will admit it. 

 

this thread is absolute proof of that. Folk with no idea listening to a load of biased opinion pieces then deciding its fact. 

 

the only things that have come out are;

 

It will cost an incredible amount of money

It wont be a hard brexit by any means

Theresa May will get binned

 

Absolutely no-one has a clue ... except you apparently

[The Brow]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Absolutely no-one has a clue ... except you apparently

 

its not opinion if; 

 

1 - Its already not a hard brexit

2 - Its already cost a fortune

 

The only part that's slightly opinion is that Remainer May, will get binned. Her own party have it in for her, but she'll clearly be left to stagger through this shitshow before the knives come out. Folk arent stupid, nobody in their right mind would replace her just now.

 

But you know all this already, you're just deliberately obtuse. 

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, The Brow said:

 

its not opinion if; 

 

1 - Its already not a hard brexit

2 - Its already cost a fortune

 

The only part that's slightly opinion is that Remainer May, will get binned. Her own party have it in for her, but she'll clearly be left to stagger through this shitshow before the knives come out. Folk arent stupid, nobody in their right mind would replace her just now.

 

But you know all this already, you're just deliberately obtuse. 

Your two supposed facts are not true.

[The Brow]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Your two supposed facts are not true.

 

Cloud cuckoo land. 

 

Good day to you. 

[Francis Albert]

31 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So why quote me then?  

 

FWIW, I don't disagree with the failure of mainstream parties to react and amend policy as required.  Or to educate and defend why these things exist.

 

Britain had the opportunity to rally support within the EU to do something about it, instead it has basically ran away from the problem.

David Cameron wasted a lot of time rroaming eu capitals and ended up only with meaningless emergency brake nonsense.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

David Cameron wasted a lot of time rroaming eu capitals and ended up only with meaningless emergency brake nonsense.

 

Aye, for the UK only.  He should have, imo, been promoting an agenda within the EU that member states could buy into.

[Cade]

Cameron spent time trying to get more UK exceptionalism instead of actual EU reforms that would affect all 28 member states.

The UK already had (and still has) more rebates, opt-outs, exclusions, exceptions and other special deals than any other state, so he was told tae bolt.

 

He should never have called the referendum. 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

 

 

He should never have called the referendum. 

The majority of voters would disagree .

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Cameron spent time trying to get more UK exceptionalism instead of actual EU reforms that would affect all 28 member states.

The UK already had (and still has) more rebates, opt-outs, exclusions, exceptions and other special deals than any other state, so he was told tae bolt.

 

He should never have called the referendum. 

And the MPs who voted 6 to 1 in favour but now don't like the result ..

As for persuading the E U to change one of the "four fundamental freedoms" in less than a decade or more ... fat chsnce

[jambo lodge]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Aye, for the UK only.  He should have, imo, been promoting an agenda within the EU that member states could buy into.

You cannot promote an agenda within the EU unless Germany and their puppet France agree with it.