Hard Brexit

[Francis Albert]

22 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Utter bollox. So Norway... the EU negotiates all trade deals for them? Really.

 

Does the EU have the same power over WM that WM casts over Scotland. But hey the UK trade block is just jolly spiffin. 

 

The UK and other members of the EU are not permitted to negotiate trade agreements independently of the EU.  Britain cannot even  begin such negotiations until it has left the EU. Which is the point I was making.

 

WM "casts power" over Scotland because Scotland voted for that power to be cast over Scotland.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Francis Albert

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The UK and other members of the EU are not permitted to negotiate trade agreements independently of the EU.  Britain cannot even  begin such negotiations until it has left the EU. Which is the point I was making.

 

WM "casts power" over Scotland because Scotland voted for that power to be cast.

 

 

 

 

Did you cast that power? Because going by your view of the EU you'd have to see the Scotland has to go alone. Double Fecked going by your opinion.

Otherwise your no vote is cast by unsavory grounds. If you want WM to take back powers, you've got to be in favour of Scotland doing likewise.

Edited January 31, 2018 by ri Alban

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Did you cast that power? Because going by your view of the EU you'd have to see the Scotland has to go alone. Double Fecked going by your opinion.

I didn't have a vote on Indy  because I don't live in Scotland.

I didn't vote Leave in the EU referendum but respect the decision of those who did.

If and when Scotland votes for independence I'd hope that vote would be respected too. As I suspect you would.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Francis Albert

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The UK and other members of the EU are not permitted to negotiate trade agreements independently of the EU.  Britain cannot even  begin such negotiations until it has left the EU. Which is the point I was making.

 

WM "casts power" over Scotland because Scotland voted for that power to be cast.

 

 

 

 

Let's revisit this vote again. With no EU membership or make believe powers to offer. Actually everything you throw at it has no foothold this time round and Theresa May knows it. Yes will destroy the no vote next time.

[ri Alban]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

I didn't have a vote in the Indy  because I don't live in Scotland.

I didn't vote Leave in the EU referendum but respect the decision of those who did.

If and when Scotland votes for independence I'd hope that vote would be respected too. As I suspect you would.

Here, you've got me wrong, I'm not against the vote, the UK must leave the EU. But Scotland now needs to revisit the vote because what we were told to secure a safe no vote is now nil and void. We too need to be able to negotiate or own trade with the EU and the world. 

 

[Francis Albert]

11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Let's revisit this vote again. With no EU membership or make believe powers to offer. Actually everything you throw at it has no foothold this time round and Theresa May knows it. Yes will destroy the no vote next time.

In which case you have nothing to worry about. Scotland will be independent and no doubt quickly be accepted into the bosom of the EU. In fact given your apparent contempt for the English (or Brit Nats) I'd have thought you'd be delighted at the prospect of being further distanced from them by their departure from the EU.

Sorry I hadn't read your post just above. Let me divert that comment to Space Mac

 

As for your position which I now understand I am not sure I can square your ridicule of the UK for trying to do what it is doing with the desire for an independent Scotland to do exactly the same.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Francis Albert

[ri Alban]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

In which case you have nothing to worry about. Scotland will be independent and no doubt quickly be accepted into the bosom of the EU. In fact given your apparent contempt for the English (or Brit Nats) I'd have thought you'd be delighted at the prospect of being further distanced from them by their departure from the EU.

Oh dear, so you are in fact a hypocrite. 

I have no for or against the EU, trade deals and what's best for Scotland, which isn't ruled by WM. But you keep flinging dung to disguise your own contempt for Scotland and he EU. Don't tell me you live in southern Britain were all these poles and Muslims stay. Nooooooooo!!!!!!! Get them ootz.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

Oh dear, so you are in fact a hypocrite. 

I have no for or against the EU, trade deals and what's best for Scotland, which isn't ruled by WM. But you keep flinging dung to disguise your own contempt for Scotland and he EU. Don't tell me you live in southern Britain were all these poles and Muslims stay. Nooooooooo!!!!!!! Get them ootz.

You are making less and less sense. Where have I demonstrated contempt for either Scotland or the EU? Why would I be flinging dung to disguise contempt I don't have?

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

You are making less and less sense. Where have I demonstrated contempt for either Scotland or the EU? Why would I be flinging dung to disguise contempt I don't have?

You're a hypocrite. You want rid of the EU but don't have the same desire for Scotland and the UK. I find that weird. As weird as non Scots Brits living in Scotland moaning about too many EU citizens(foreigners) in Scotland. Oh the irony.

 

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

You're a hypocrite. You want rid of the EU but don't have the same desire for Scotland and the UK. I find that weird. As weird as non Scots Brits living in Scotland moaning about too many EU citizens(foreigners) in Scotland. Oh the irony.

 

As a "non-English Brit" living in England I want Scotland to be independent if and when it chooses to be independent. I have no say in the matter. And I repeat I did not vote to be rid of the EU.

 

But I think that's enough repetition ...

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Francis Albert

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

As a "non-English Brit" living in England I want Scotland to be independent if and when it chooses to be independent. I have no say in the matter. And I repeat I did not vote to be rid of the EU.

 

But I think that's enough repetition ...

 

Ok! But I'll be watching

[jake]

10 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Cognitive bias may lead to psychosis. Or it may be the reverse like your mate in Canada.

? 

 

Psychosis Aussie aye ?

??

[ri Alban]

12 hours ago, jake said:

? 

 

Psychosis Aussie aye ?

??

Just a joint away. 

[Boris]

17 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

The UK and other members of the EU are not permitted to negotiate trade agreements independently of the EU.  Britain cannot even  begin such negotiations until it has left the EU. Which is the point I was making.

 

 

 

Not according to Dr Fox...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/01/liam-fox-admits-being-in-eu-doesnt-stop-more-trade-with-china

 

"Asked if Britain could still increase trade despite remaining inside a customs union with the EU, Fox said: “Self-evidently, we can do it in a customs union because we can do it now while we are still in the EU,” he said."

[Francis Albert]

35 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Not according to Dr Fox...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/01/liam-fox-admits-being-in-eu-doesnt-stop-more-trade-with-china

 

"Asked if Britain could still increase trade despite remaining inside a customs union with the EU, Fox said: “Self-evidently, we can do it in a customs union because we can do it now while we are still in the EU,” he said."

I don't think anyone  has suggested Britain can't increase trade with other countries while in the EU or a customs union.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

I see speakers on both sides in the Lords debate used the terminology "BINA" or Brexit in name only, one side fearing that is where we are heading and the other arguing that because that is where were heading, Brexit is pointless. It seems a much more helpful and honest phrase than "Soft Brexit".

[Boris]

16 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I don't think anyone  has suggested Britain can't increase trade with other countries while in the EU or a customs union.

 

By bilateral negotiation, as seems to be the case with China?  In other words, you can be in the custom union AND make bilateral trade agreements.

[Boris]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I see speakers on both sides in the Lords debate used the terminology "BINA" or Brexit in name only, one side fearing that is where we are heading and the other arguing that because that is where were heading, Brexit is pointless. It seems a much more helpful and honest phrase than "Soft Brexit".

 

Yip, I'll agree with you on that!

[Francis Albert]

21 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

By bilateral negotiation, as seems to be the case with China?  In other words, you can be in the custom union AND make bilateral trade agreements.

As I read it you certainly can't conclude a trade agreement and it sounds like current discussions are more talks about future talks if and when we do leave. Well that's how I read it.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

As I read it you certainly can't conclude a trade agreement and it sounds like current discussions are more talks about future talks if and when we do leave. Well that's how I read it.

 

I'll give you that, but nothing stopping you expanding on one already in place, 1-2-1.  As long as it doesn't contradict the original agreement i suppose.  That's my take on it. 

 

As it is all so complicated, I for one am just so pleased we have the likes of Liam Fox going into bat for us!

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

I'll give you that, but nothing stopping you expanding on one already in place, 1-2-1.  As long as it doesn't contradict the original agreement i suppose.  That's my take on it. 

 

As it is all so complicated, I for one am just so pleased we have the likes of Liam Fox going into bat for us!

The UK negotiators seem to be full of master debators. 

[jake]

9 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

The UK negotiators seem to be full of master debators. 

They maybe but the EU negotiating team take it to a level of self love beyond being wankers.

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, jake said:

They maybe but the EU negotiating team take it to a level of self love beyond being wankers.

How do you know this? I would happen to be through brexit Britain media. Yes , Psychosis.

[Space Mackerel]

8 hours ago, jake said:

They maybe but the EU negotiating team take it to a level of self love beyond being wankers.

 

Theyve managed to unite 26 other governments whilst the Tory party can’t unite 26 cabinet members or ministers. 

[SE16 3LN]

3 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Theyve managed to unite 26 other governments whilst the Tory party can’t unite 26 cabinet members or ministers. 

Ha Ha, Merkel can't even unite her own country and form a Govt. The 26 are united in one thing, screwing more money from the British workers. The disgusting thing is that the sycophants in the Scot Nats have their mouths so tightly round the EU arseholes they can't even see it's their own people getting shafted. Its ****ing humiliating to be associated with it.

 

10 million French people voted fascist, you support them, 13% of Germans voted for an extreme right wing and racist party, you support them. Many Eastern European countries want to leave the EU but won't because of guess what, UK money provided on the backs of the UK worker. Why would you want this? Because of your petty prejudice against the English, nothing else. ****ing pathetic.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

Ha Ha, Merkel can't even unite her own country and form a Govt. The 26 are united in one thing, screwing more money from the British workers. The disgusting thing is that the sycophants in the Scot Nats have their mouths so tightly round the EU arseholes they can't even see it's their own people getting shafted. Its ****ing humiliating to be associated with it.

 

10 million French people voted fascist, you support them, 13% of Germans voted for an extreme right wing and racist party, you support them. Many Eastern European countries want to leave the EU but won't because of guess what, UK money provided on the backs of the UK worker. Why would you want this? Because of your petty prejudice against the English, nothing else. ****ing pathetic.

Aww, we britnat showing his prejudice against Scotland.

Oh and 42% (+ ukip)fascists brits voted in the Tories. The SNP will free Scots workers from the brits. But people like you have their mooths tightly round UK arseholes.

 

Roll on brexit and Jacob Rees Mogg. Then indyref2 will be a walk in the park. You stick to working in Iceland.

[Francis Albert]

21 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Aww, we britnat showing his prejudice against Scotland.

Oh and 42% (+ ukip)fascists brits voted in the Tories. The SNP will free Scots workers from the brits. But people like you have their mooths tightly round UK arseholes.

 

Roll on brexit and Jacob Rees Mogg. Then indyref2 will be a walk in the park. You stick to working in Iceland.

The tories are fascists? Language fast losing its meaning. Compared to france, germany, holland, austria etc etc your hated England has given negligible support to true neo-fascism.

[Space Mackerel]

8 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Ha Ha, Merkel can't even unite her own country and form a Govt. The 26 are united in one thing, screwing more money from the British workers. The disgusting thing is that the sycophants in the Scot Nats have their mouths so tightly round the EU arseholes they can't even see it's their own people getting shafted. Its ****ing humiliating to be associated with it.

 

10 million French people voted fascist, you support them, 13% of Germans voted for an extreme right wing and racist party, you support them. Many Eastern European countries want to leave the EU but won't because of guess what, UK money provided on the backs of the UK worker. Why would you want this? Because of your petty prejudice against the English, nothing else. ****ing pathetic.

 

When the upload pic feature is back working I’ll post a wee pic to help you understand the balance of power between the EU, London and Scotland. 

 

Its very easy easy to understand the different conditions

[jambo lodge]

2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

When the upload pic feature is back working I’ll post a wee pic to help you understand the balance of power between the EU, London and Scotland. 

 

Its very easy easy to understand the different conditions

Please please don't upload anything more from the National. 

[Space Mackerel]

12 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Please please don't upload anything more from the National. 

 

This is from the English Daily Mail

[Ulysses]

On 2/1/2018 at 23:58, jake said:

They maybe but the EU negotiating team take it to a level of self love beyond being wankers.

 

There's no need to insult them just because they want something different to what you want.

 

Well, that need might exist for you, but that's why they are practitioners in the art of government and you aren't.

 

So far at least they are doing a good job of representing our interests, so I have no complaints.

[jake]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

There's no need to insult them just because they want something different to what you want.

 

Well, that need might exist for you, but that's why they are practitioners in the art of government and you aren't.

 

So far at least they are doing a good job of representing our interests, so I have no complaints.

Fair enough but it was in response to a masturbater comment so was just going with the flow.

 

They may well be practioners of high government and I may be just a guy on a building site.

That doesn't mean I can't have a view that's different to you or them that isn't valid.

 

 

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Fair enough but it was in response to a masturbater comment so was just going with the flow.

 

They may well be practioners of high government and I may be just a guy on a building site.

That doesn't mean I can't have a view that's different to you or them that isn't valid.

 

 

 

Ah.  At the risk of stating the obvious, saying you behaved badly because you were replying to someone who you thought was behaving badly isn't an excuse.  Other people aren't responsible for what you post - you are.

 

I'm not referring to your side's negotiators as wankers.  But I am saying that they are making a bollix of representing you, and they really need to get their act together.

 

I don't recall suggesting that you can't have a view that's different to me or them that's valid.  But government doesn't function well just by being "valid".  It needs to be intelligent, nuanced and effective as well.  My side's approach to the negotiations has been all of those things - and it has been based on upholding principles that have served our people well.  Your side has been all over the place, and therefore it is not serving the British people as well as it should, whether they voted for or against Brexit.

 

In short, and whether you like it or not, your government is carrying on like the Keystone Cops, and that needs to stop.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

7 hours ago, jake said:

Fair enough but it was in response to a masturbater comment so was just going with the flow.

 

Just to be clear, it wasn't directed at you. 

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, jake said:

Fair enough but it was in response to a masturbater comment so was just going with the flow.

 

They may well be practioners of high government and I may be just a guy on a building site.

That doesn't mean I can't have a view that's different to you or them that isn't valid.

 

 

Jake, no offence, but your opinion means nothing, it has no validity other than here and that's only to help continuity of discussion.

Edited February 3, 2018 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Ah.  At the risk of stating the obvious, saying you behaved badly because you were replying to someone who you thought was behaving badly isn't an excuse.  Other people aren't responsible for what you post - you are.

 

I'm not referring to your side's negotiators as wankers.  But I am saying that they are making a bollix of representing you, and they really need to get their act together.

 

I don't recall suggesting that you can't have a view that's different to me or them that's valid.  But government doesn't function well just by being "valid".  It needs to be intelligent, nuanced and effective as well.  My side's approach to the negotiations has been all of those things - and it has been based on upholding principles that have served our people well.  Your side has been all over the place, and therefore it is not serving the British people as well as it should, whether they voted for or against Brexit.

 

In short, and whether you like it or not, your government is carrying on like the Keystone Cops, and that needs to stop.

They're not my government.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

They're not my government.

You may not have chosen them but they govern you. 

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

You may not have chosen them but they govern you. 

No, I do not recognise the British parliament. Otherwise I'd pay tax.

[deesidejambo]

44 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

No, I do not recognise the British parliament. Otherwise I'd pay tax.

 

You refuse to pay tax?   But you benefit from the services that tax is used to fund?

 

If thats the case then you are simply a scrounger.

 

And to quote someone - no taxation without representation.    So if you dont pay tax its your views that are not valid, not Jakes.

[jake]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Ah.  At the risk of stating the obvious, saying you behaved badly because you were replying to someone who you thought was behaving badly isn't an excuse.  Other people aren't responsible for what you post - you are.

 

I'm not referring to your side's negotiators as wankers.  But I am saying that they are making a bollix of representing you, and they really need to get their act together.

 

I don't recall suggesting that you can't have a view that's different to me or them that's valid.  But government doesn't function well just by being "valid".  It needs to be intelligent, nuanced and effective as well.  My side's approach to the negotiations has been all of those things - and it has been based on upholding principles that have served our people well.  Your side has been all over the place, and therefore it is not serving the British people as well as it should, whether they voted for or against Brexit.

 

In short, and whether you like it or not, your government is carrying on like the Keystone Cops, and that needs to stop.

Can't disagree with most of that.

Other than the EU being balanced etc.

 

 

[jake]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Jake, no offence, but your opinion means nothing, it has no validity other than here and that's only to help continuity of discussion.

None taken.

It's valid .

I have a vote.

I can express myself in other ways apart from here and do so.

It's not much but it's something.

[jake]

2 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Just to be clear, it wasn't directed at you. 

I know that buddy.

 

Even if it was I can be .

?

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

No, I do not recognise the British parliament. Otherwise I'd pay tax.

Doesn't matter, they're your government. You don't need to recognise it for that to be fact I'm afraid, you don't get a choice. 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, jake said:

Can't disagree with most of that.

Other than the EU being balanced etc.

 

 

 

 

Balanced?  My post didn't say that.  I want the EU negotiators to be intelligent, nuanced and effective, and to uphold principles and ideas that serve me and our people well.  You want to leave, and to be frank I don't want our negotiators wasting their time on your interests.  You've got a negotiation team to do that.  I expect them to get stuck in on your behalf, and it's up to the two sides to come up with a workable deal.  I hope they can, and in fact I think they can, but as I said before the British side needs to get its act together.

 

I think that illustrates a difficulty with the way in which Leave voters see the EU and Brexit.  Many of you really seem to think that the EU should approach Brexit negotiations to secure the best deal for Britain, and seem genuinely puzzled when they don't, and instead try to secure the best deal for the rest of the EU.  Whose side do you think the EU negotiators are on?  Another way of looking at it is that many people seem to think that what is best for the UK is also automatically best for the EU.  But that's simply not the case - if it was, there'd be a deal in place already.

 

It's an example of the "fog in channel, continent cut off" mentality that still exists in some quarters in the UK today.

[jake]

On 03/02/2018 at 13:48, Ulysses said:

 

 

Balanced?  My post didn't say that.  I want the EU negotiators to be intelligent, nuanced and effective, and to uphold principles and ideas that serve me and our people well.  You want to leave, and to be frank I don't want our negotiators wasting their time on your interests.  You've got a negotiation team to do that.  I expect them to get stuck in on your behalf, and it's up to the two sides to come up with a workable deal.  I hope they can, and in fact I think they can, but as I said before the British side needs to get its act together.

 

I think that illustrates a difficulty with the way in which Leave voters see the EU and Brexit.  Many of you really seem to think that the EU should approach Brexit negotiations to secure the best deal for Britain, and seem genuinely puzzled when they don't, and instead try to secure the best deal for the rest of the EU.  Whose side do you think the EU negotiators are on?  Another way of looking at it is that many people seem to think that what is best for the UK is also automatically best for the EU.  But that's simply not the case - if it was, there'd be a deal in place already.

 

It's an example of the "fog in channel, continent cut off" mentality that still exists in some quarters in the UK today.

Yes sorry i read nuanced as balanced.

No I don't expect the EU to find a deal that benefits the UK to the detriment of the EU.

Principles .

That's interesting .

The principle of respecting democracy might be something the EU could look at.

And yes I think that the UK as one of the biggest investors in the EU does deserve that the UK interests are respected.

 

Internal politics in the conservative party I agree are hindering a clear policy for brexit.

There's also the unelected house of lords throwing in spanners and sections of the press which print outrageous claims.

 

The EU are not imo looking after business for their people's.

But intent on punitive and obstructive tactics.

Their interests lie in brexit being a failure .

[Ulysses]

21 minutes ago, jake said:

 

The principle of respecting democracy might be something the EU could look at.

 

[...]

 

The EU are not imo looking after business for their people's.

But intent on punitive and obstructive tactics.

Their interests lie in brexit being a failure .

 

But you would say that, wouldn't you?  After all, you regard the UK as right and the EU as wrong no matter what. 

 

The EU is a flawed creation, which is has to be because it is a conglomeration of a couple of dozen countries with different systems, methods of public administration, cultures, languages and even beliefs.  People often refer to the EU as undemocratic, but is it the EU that is being undemocratic or is it the individual member states?  The main reason the EU operates as it does is that there is almost no direct way that the people of Europe can elect the Union's institutions and officials.  Who prevents that happening?  Not the EU's central institutions, but the individual countries that make up the EU.  It's the individual countries who decide what will go into the Treaties, what is allowable and what is not - not the EU's institutions. 

 

The EU is not being punitive or obstructive.  It is defending the principles on which the union is constructed.  Britain voted to leave - the EU didn't vote to throw Britain out.  There is a clear exit route, with clear rules and procedures for what happens after Britain leaves.  So there is no need for any negotiations at all.  But of course there are advantages in having negotiations, advantages for both sides.  However, to gain those advantages the sides also have to make sacrifices and compromises.  What the EU is saying in the negotiations is that there are some sacrifices and some compromises it is not prepared to make, because they will cause the Union to lose far too much to make the advantages of a post-Brexit deal worthwhile.  You have to assume that the British government is giving its own similar messages to the EU.  But that does not mean that the EU is being punitive or obstructive, or that the British are being obstructive.  Negotiations have to be honest, and it is irrational to expect either side to make compromises that they simply cannot make.  We might fantasise that those compromises would somehow work out OK, but they wouldn't. 

 

The art of negotiation is finding the common ground - and part of that is recognising the ground that can't be common.  If there are principles that the UK can't compromise about, and likewise there are principles to which the EU has to hold firm, then that will be that, and either there will be no deal, or else there may be a limited trade agreement.

 

Whether you're on the side of the departing UK or the rest of the EU, it's easy to sit there and blame the other side if a good deal can't be agreed, but the reality is a lot more complicated.  My criticism of the British government is not about how it is approaching us - it's about how it is representing you.  And in fairness I think you agree that they need to up their game.

 

By the way you referenced the internal struggles of the Conservatives, and I think you're right, but I think Labour would also struggle quite badly in the negotiations if they were in charge.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

But you would say that, wouldn't you?  After all, you regard the UK as right and the EU as wrong no matter what. 

 

The EU is a flawed creation, which is has to be because it is a conglomeration of a couple of dozen countries with different systems, methods of public administration, cultures, languages and even beliefs.  People often refer to the EU as undemocratic, but is it the EU that is being undemocratic or is it the individual member states?  The main reason the EU operates as it does is that there is almost no direct way that the people of Europe can elect the Union's institutions and officials.  Who prevents that happening?  Not the EU's central institutions, but the individual countries that make up the EU.  It's the individual countries who decide what will go into the Treaties, what is allowable and what is not - not the EU's institutions. 

 

The EU is not being punitive or obstructive.  It is defending the principles on which the union is constructed.  Britain voted to leave - the EU didn't vote to throw Britain out.  There is a clear exit route, with clear rules and procedures for what happens after Britain leaves.  So there is no need for any negotiations at all.  But of course there are advantages in having negotiations, advantages for both sides.  However, to gain those advantages the sides also have to make sacrifices and compromises.  What the EU is saying in the negotiations is that there are some sacrifices and some compromises it is not prepared to make, because they will cause the Union to lose far too much to make the advantages of a post-Brexit deal worthwhile.  You have to assume that the British government is giving its own similar messages to the EU.  But that does not mean that the EU is being punitive or obstructive, or that the British are being obstructive.  Negotiations have to be honest, and it is irrational to expect either side to make compromises that they simply cannot make.  We might fantasise that those compromises would somehow work out OK, but they wouldn't. 

 

The art of negotiation is finding the common ground - and part of that is recognising the ground that can't be common.  If there are principles that the UK can't compromise about, and likewise there are principles to which the EU has to hold firm, then that will be that, and either there will be no deal, or else there may be a limited trade agreement.

 

Whether you're on the side of the departing UK or the rest of the EU, it's easy to sit there and blame the other side if a good deal can't be agreed, but the reality is a lot more complicated.  My criticism of the British government is not about how it is approaching us - it's about how it is representing you.  And in fairness I think you agree that they need to up their game.

 

By the way you referenced the internal struggles of the Conservatives, and I think you're right, but I think Labour would also struggle quite badly in the negotiations if they were in charge.

Good post. But i would challenge your view that the EU's approach is more "nuanced". The EU quite reasonably says the UK has to accept the terms of the free trade area and customs union in its future relationship with the EU

 The UK on the back of the referendum vote wants something different. I am not sure one is more nuanced than the other.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Ulysses]

32 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Good post. But i would challenge your view that the EU's approach is more "nuanced". The EU quite reasonably says the UK has to accept the terms of the free trade area and customs union in its future relationship with the EU

 The UK on the back of the referendum vote wants something different. I am not sure one is more nuanced than the other.

 

 

 

 

My point about "nuanced" was partly about the EU's approach to negotiations, which may not look nuanced from where you sit but certainly does from this side of the dance floor.  We are very good at splitting hairs and finding solutions to apparently insoluble problems.  So are the British, though regrettably the right of the Conservative party, the left of Labour and the absolutists of UKIP are a bit less talented in that respect - but hey, that's the way it goes with extremes and extremists.  My point was also about the contention that it isn't sufficient for governments to be "democratic"; they also have to be effective, and one of the ways they do that is by being nuanced and leaving room for policy positions to cope with contingencies and events.  That's something that seems to be going out of fashion in a post-smartphone world, but it is still vital to good politics and good public administration.

 

The UK does not have to accept the terms of the customs union or the free trade area if it doesn't want to.  The USA doesn't.  Nor does China, Japan, Brazil, India, Australia, Canada, nor in fact most of the world.

 

If the UK wants a closer trading relationship with the EU than other countries have, it will have to make sacrifices and compromise.  The closer a trading relationship it wants, the more compromises are involved.  The same applies in reverse.  The EU may be prepared to make some sacrifices for the benefit of a closer trading relationship with the UK, but there are some compromises it cannot make.  Aside from anything else, one major advantage that the UK has over other countries is barrier-free access to markets - but such access is simply impossible without a common customs administration and regulatory system, with identical rules and procedures right across the system.  If the rules and procedures are different anywhere in the zone covered by the system, then barriers have to be put in place to manage the differences.  The EU has all sorts of unified regulatory regimes, but underpinning all of those is the fact that it is a customs union. 

 

Similarly, the UK's main issue with the EU relates to freedom of movement of people.  If the UK can't restrict the flow of people to and from the EU 27, then allowing that continued flow may be too high a price to pay for continued access to the EU's markets.  In that situation, what the UK may be looking for is "Switzerland minus" rather than "Canada plus".  Switzerland doesn't have a single Treaty or agreement governing its relations with the EU.  Rather, it has 120 (or so) specific agreements, which in effect give Switzerland access to EU markets that is marginally less than the EU and EEA arrangements - and the same applies in reverse.  Although this setup is very similar to what happens with EU and the EEA, it doesn't quite cover everything.  As far as I can see not all rules are followed, and not all economic sectors are covered.  I don't know how much that really benefits the Swiss, but by and large it seems to work. One option for the UK and the EU is to develop a set of specific arrangements like that, only with a few less areas covered and therefore a few new restrictions.  It would be messy to write, but it would be achievable, and it would be a very "May-esque" solution.  However, she's not really in charge and it's hard to imagine her being in the job for too much longer.

[SE16 3LN]

On 02/02/2018 at 12:48, ri Alban said:

Aww, we britnat showing his prejudice against Scotland.

Oh and 42% (+ ukip)fascists brits voted in the Tories. The SNP will free Scots workers from the brits. But people like you have their mooths tightly round UK arseholes.

 

Roll on brexit and Jacob Rees Mogg. Then indyref2 will be a walk in the park. You stick to working in Iceland.

I'm an Internationalist ya walloper, all nationalist look like the same bunch of bigots to me, Scots, French, German and Brit. Not bright enough to get that round yer hate filled brain are ye

[SE16 3LN]

On 02/02/2018 at 19:41, Space Mackerel said:

 

When the upload pic feature is back working I’ll post a wee pic to help you understand the balance of power between the EU, London and Scotland. 

 

Its very easy easy to understand the different conditions

In other words you've got nothing