Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

Tragic. Along the same lines as Republicans who have said to me, with a straight face, that leftists made them vote for Donald Trump. It's all the Democrats' fault.

 

You poor soul, downright exhausted by the indiscriminate use of completely accurate terms to describe fascist ***** like JRM, Trump, Johnson and Farage.

 

Ok you can misuse the word tragic as well as the word fascist

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

What like "at least they have the rest of their lives" diminishes the horrors of forced eviction and all the other fun stuff, and disrespects the many innocent victims of Israeli policies? 

Regardless, the tone of your original post was heartless, flippant, and dismissive.

A fact that you are either completely unaware of, or unwilling to acknowledge.

It makes you come across as a right horrible *****, which I'm beginning to suspect you may be.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have died in the camps but that's ok as Hitler was evil, at least I think that's what fa is saying. Not sure why the Palestinians should have to pay for what the Germans and others did in the 2nd world war

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have died in the camps but that's ok as Hitler was evil, at least I think that's what fa is saying. Not sure why the Palestinians should have to pay for what the Germans and others did in the 2nd world war

It really isn't what I am saying. I am saying the the use of the words concentration camp is a deliberate attempt to make an equivalence between the holocaust and Israeli treatment of Palestinians which I don't accept. The latter is horrible, indeed tragic,  but they are not equivalent.

Anyway . Back to Brexit negotiations?

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Diminishes the horrors of treatment of Palestinians or elevates the unique horrors of Nazi concentration camps?

 

Horror is horror is horror, and I'd argue that none is unique when you find yourself on the receiving end of it.

 

But aye, back to Brexit. 👍

[AlimOzturk]

16 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Pish!

 

Naw it's no. You cant champion an indy ref 2 and say there should not be another vote on EU membership. You are hoping for an utter mess of leaving so as to further the independence cause. Simply put that isnt the way to go about it. 

[Mikey1874]

EU has basically rejected the UK proposals.

 

But UK Government has promised to submit amended proposals for discussion on Monday. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

EU has basically rejected the UK proposals.

 

But UK Government has promised to submit amended proposals for discussion on Monday. 

Round and round we go.

 

[Mikey1874]

17 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Round and round we go.

 

 

I find it strange the Government published its proposals when they knew they would change during negotiations. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I find it strange the Government published its proposals when they knew they would change during negotiations. 

This.

Absolutely weird.

[DETTY29]

Got round to watching Tories at War on All 4 and I'm sure all parties and politicians are the similar, but dear god, every one a @@@@.

[...a bit disco]

Interesting excerpt from the Vote Leave campaign literature.

 

 

 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I find it strange the Government published its proposals when they knew they would change during negotiations. 

 

Not at all. It's all smoke and mirrors to keep the idea going that the Government is still doing something. The idea is to control the message through the media, to lay the background for whatever the cunning plot is going to be for the 31st of October. The actual negotiations don't matter a jot because they're not worth a thrupenny bit.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

Not at all. It's all smoke and mirrors to keep the idea going that the Government is still doing something. The idea is to control the message through the media, to lay the background for whatever the cunning plot is going to be for the 31st of October. The actual negotiations don't matter a jot because they're not worth a thrupenny bit.

This

[dobmisterdobster]

On 04/10/2019 at 13:07, Boris said:

 

Or a declaration of UDi based on the Westminster result.

 

Pretty sure there is precedence internationally.

 

Boris continually saying no will only lead to one outcome, so I'd suggest that's a self defeating tactic on his part.

Sorry for the late reply but if the UK government doesn't recognise the UDI then no other country will.

Look what happened to Catalonia.

The UN won't do anything. They are not sympathetic to separatist movements.

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Sorry for the late reply but if the UK government doesn't recognise the UDI then no other country will.

Look what happened to Catalonia.

The UN won't do anything. They are not sympathetic to separatist movements.

 

South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria and Sealand might recognise us though!

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Sorry for the late reply but if the UK government doesn't recognise the UDI then no other country will.

Look what happened to Catalonia.

The UN won't do anything. They are not sympathetic to separatist movements.

It's not a separatist movement. Like it or not, Scotland, England, Wales and NI can leave at anytime.

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria and Sealand might recognise us though!

USA? A bit hypocritical if they didn't.

[dobmisterdobster]

6 hours ago, ri Alban said:

It's not a separatist movement. Like it or not, Scotland, England, Wales and NI can leave at anytime.

It kinda is a separatist movement. I see how it isn't one.

 

Scotland is welcome to leave if it wants but it has to be done in a constitutionally acceptable way.

Edited October 6, 2019 by dobmisterdobster
Auto correct

[redjambo]

7 hours ago, ri Alban said:

USA? A bit hypocritical if they didn't.

 

We would have to symbolically throw something in the harbour first.

[shaun.lawson]

On 04/10/2019 at 15:28, Francis Albert said:

I tire of the indiscriminate use of terms such as Nazi and fascist and,particularly in the context of Israel "concentration camp" which for me diminishes the horrors of the holocaust 

 

 

 

Oh I see. We're not allowed to use the term 'concentration camp' because there were concentration camps in the Holocaust. Unreal. 

 

You know which country invented the systematic use of concentration camps? Britain, during the Boer War. You know which Western countries have concentration camps now? The US, where women fleeing for their lives are made to drink out of toilet bowls; kids are separated from their parents, then lost; and tiny kids are locked up in cages and left to sleep on the hard floor... and Israel. Gaza is an open air prison camp which people are not allowed to leave, not allowed a vote in, are deprived of citizenship or any rights and even kept on a diet all year round. And are murdered by Hamas or by Israel all the time. 

 

In a concentration camp - as opposed to a forced labour camp or a death camp - people are concentrated and imprisoned indefinitely without trial. That is what is going on in the US and in Israel. Was there much more total disregard for people's health, dignity and basic humanity in Nazi concentration camps? Absolutely. Yet that doesn't make what now exists in the US and Israel somehow OK. 

 

Finally, here's something which might surprise you. My grandmother and her family were at Auschwitz, Frankfurt am Main, Ravensbruck (the worst of all, said my gran) and Mauthausen. They cheated death on several occasions. Yet the biggest reason they survived? The concentration camp at Zillertal, Austria. They were sent there over Christmas 1944. The factory owner there had done some sort of deal with the local Nazis whereby there was running water, so they could wash each day, and proper food. They all regained considerable strength as a result: utterly critical given the horrors which still lay ahead.

 

Zillertal was a concentration camp which, very plainly, treated its prisoners a whole lot better than the US or Israel now. Remarkable, but true. Sitting here in front of me is a painting of Zillertal. It's one of my most cherished possessions. That painting hung on my gran's wall. Whenever we'd walk past it, she'd say "that place saved my life". 

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

We would have to symbolically throw something in the harbour first.

I've a few suggestions.

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

I've a few suggestions.

 

I thought you might.

[Francis Albert]

5 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Oh I see. We're not allowed to use the term 'concentration camp' because there were concentration camps in the Holocaust. Unreal. 

 

You know which country invented the systematic use of concentration camps? Britain, during the Boer War. You know which Western countries have concentration camps now? The US, where women fleeing for their lives are made to drink out of toilet bowls; kids are separated from their parents, then lost; and tiny kids are locked up in cages and left to sleep on the hard floor... and Israel. Gaza is an open air prison camp which people are not allowed to leave, not allowed a vote in, are deprived of citizenship or any rights and even kept on a diet all year round. And are murdered by Hamas or by Israel all the time. 

 

In a concentration camp - as opposed to a forced labour camp or a death camp - people are concentrated and imprisoned indefinitely without trial. That is what is going on in the US and in Israel. Was there much more total disregard for people's health, dignity and basic humanity in Nazi concentration camps? Absolutely. Yet that doesn't make what now exists in the US and Israel somehow OK. 

 

Finally, here's something which might surprise you. My grandmother and her family were at Auschwitz, Frankfurt am Main, Ravensbruck (the worst of all, said my gran) and Mauthausen. They cheated death on several occasions. Yet the biggest reason they survived? The concentration camp at Zillertal, Austria. They were sent there over Christmas 1944. The factory owner there had done some sort of deal with the local Nazis whereby there was running water, so they could wash each day, and proper food. They all regained considerable strength as a result: utterly critical given the horrors which still lay ahead.

 

Zillertal was a concentration camp which, very plainly, treated its prisoners a whole lot better than the US or Israel now. Remarkable, but true. Sitting here in front of me is a painting of Zillertal. It's one of my most cherished possessions. That painting hung on my gran's wall. Whenever we'd walk past it, she'd say "that place saved my life". 

You are allowed to use the term "concentration camp" any way you want. I am aware of the history you refer to and of your personal family history from previous posts. But for me the words "concentration camp" evoke the unique horror of the holocaust, which is distinctly horrific compared to the camps in the Boer War (and Kenya), even the Gulag, even Mao's and the current Chinese regime's "re-education" centres, and certainly  the EU's refugee camps and Trump's (and Obama's) border detention centres. The conflation of the term with these other horrors of widely varying scale and  inhumanity is a deliberate attempt by opponents of Israel (who are no slouches themselves when it comes to abuses of humanitarianism) to normalise the holocaust or deflect from it. For that reason I object to it.

[XB52]

15 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

You are allowed to use the term "concentration camp" any way you want. I am aware of the history you refer to and of your personal family history from previous posts. But for me the words "concentration camp" evoke the unique horror of the holocaust, which is distinctly horrific compared to the camps in the Boer War (and Kenya), even the Gulag, even Mao's and the current Chinese regime's "re-education" centres, and certainly  the EU's refugee camps and Trump's (and Obama's) border detention centres. The conflation of the term with these other horrors of widely varying scale and  inhumanity is a deliberate attempt by opponents of Israel (who are no slouches themselves when it comes to abuses of humanitarianism) to normalise the holocaust or deflect from it. For that reason I object to it.

So despite sl totally destroying your concentration camp complaint you just ignore it and repeat your point that Jewish lives are worth more than any others. Camps are camps, torture and killing are the exact same to the ones being tortured and killed.

[Francis Albert]

15 minutes ago, XB52 said:

So despite sl totally destroying your concentration camp complaint you just ignore it and repeat your point that Jewish lives are worth more than any others. Camps are camps, torture and killing are the exact same to the ones being tortured and killed.

And despite (presumably) reading my post you just make up shit like that.

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

The conflation of the term with these other horrors of widely varying scale and  inhumanity is a deliberate attempt by opponents of Israel (who are no slouches themselves when it comes to abuses of humanitarianism) to normalise the holocaust or deflect from it. For that reason I object to it.

 

Total and utter bollocks. Offensive bollocks at that. 

 

Below, a video of American Jews protesting against ICE precisely because of what their faith has taught them. You may care to note ICE's response in "the land of the free" too. I assume these American Jews are also trying to normalise the Holocaust, deflect from it and are 'opponents of Israel'?

 

Your comments are vile. Shame on you. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Cade]

Fleets of Customs cars arriving on the back of car transporters in several Irish border towns.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

35 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Total and utter bollocks. Offensive bollocks at that. 

 

Below, a video of American Jews protesting against ICE precisely because of what their faith has taught them. You may care to note ICE's response in "the land of the free" too. I assume these American Jews are also trying to normalise the Holocaust, deflect from it and are 'opponents of Israel'?

 

Your comments are vile. Shame on you. 

 

 

The fact that some American Jews embrace the idea that Trump's (and Obama's) border controls and detention centres are equivalent to or comparable with the Holocaust doesn't change my feeling. I am not trying to change yours.

[shaun.lawson]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

The fact that some American Jews embrace the idea that Trump's (and Obama's) border controls and detention centres are equivalent to or comparable with the Holocaust doesn't change my feeling. I am not trying to change yours.

 

You know - there's a never-ending pattern to your posts.

 

JKB: Hearts are shite, Levein out!

 

FA: Not as shite as in the 70s - you lot have it lucky.

 

JKB: Brexit is a disaster! No Deal's going to destroy the UK!

 

FA: It doesn't even compare to climate change, so stop whining,

 

JKB: Climate change will be the end of humanity!

 

FA: At least one person will survive somehow, so this is ridiculous hyperbole. 

 

JKB: What the US and Israel are doing is disgusting. Concentration camps FFS.

 

FA: It's not as bad as the Holocaust, which you are trying to minimise.

 

JKB: Life today is appalling for young people. Debt up to their eyeballs, ridiculous rents, no hope of getting on the housing ladder...

 

FA: 

 

 

Some psychologists would admire your approach. It's almost Buddhist in a sense. Others would view it as nihilistic beyond belief - but each to their own and all that.

[A Boy Named Crow]

49 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

You know - there's a never-ending pattern to your posts.

*** text removed, as it’s all just there^^^. ***

 

FA: 

 

 

 

 

I think there’s another Python sketch that fits.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by A Boy Named Crow

[shaun.lawson]

   

[Hugh Phamism]

On 04/10/2019 at 15:36, DETTY29 said:

This shambles meant I had to get a new passport to go to Spain on 9th November.

 

Looks like I didn't need one after all.

 

I had to get a new one as well. Interestingly, the new passports do not say European Union on them.

[Mikey1874]

Court of Session states its satisfied and confident that Boris is going to seek an extension so they don't need to order him to do so.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by Mikey1874

[dobmisterdobster]

20 minutes ago, Hugh Phamism said:

 

I had to get a new one as well. Interestingly, the new passports do not say European Union on them.

You only have to get a new one if your old one expired.

Doesn't matter what it says on the cover.

[Mikey1874]

Some media reporting this as a victory for Boris but...

 

 

[Hugh Phamism]

8 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

You only have to get a new one if your old one expired.

Doesn't matter what it says on the cover.

 

The point that DETTY was making was that travel to EU was/is allowed up until the expiry date, but Brexit means that you will need at least 6-Months left for travel. Therefore, if your passport runs out in March-2020, like mines did, you don't know if you'll need a new passport now, or later.

[DETTY29]

1 hour ago, Hugh Phamism said:

 

The point that DETTY was making was that travel to EU was/is allowed up until the expiry date, but Brexit means that you will need at least 6-Months left for travel. Therefore, if your passport runs out in March-2020, like mines did, you don't know if you'll need a new passport now, or later.

Yep. 

 

Mine expires in October 2020, but started in May 2010.  Think I may have needed 6 months on it for a non EU country back then. 

 

So until Brexit happens, I (think) I could have travelled anywhere in EU until 04 October 2020, but needed to get a new one if out of EU and travelling into EU zone past 04 November this year as I need 6 months from passport start date.

 

Hardly the greatest hardship of Brexit.  

 

At least passport is still maroon, although not EU one or a blue one produced by the French. 

[The Mighty Thor]

I read this morning that the IFS suggest that no deal would push UK debt to a 50 year high.

 

The dividends keep rolling in 👍

[ri Alban]

Ireland should just put a border up. 

[Victorian]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I read this morning that the IFS suggest that no deal would push UK debt to a 50 year high.

 

The dividends keep rolling in 👍

 

That will be the national debt that they said they were reducing through austerity,   yet wasn't being reduced at all,   yet was virtually left unchallenged by the MSM at any point the claim was repeated.    

 

Tax receipts are forecast to take an absolute clobbering into the bargain.

 

Meanwhile,   the gangster government are actively goading a breakdown in talks with the EU.      It's ok though 'cos the media allies will blame the EU and John Bercow,   Brexit will "get done" and Boris crawl back under a rock.

[Mikey1874]

The latest Government thinking

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negotiations/

[Victorian]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

The latest Government thinking

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negotiations/

 

If that's genuine (it's debatable) then it's a level of lunacy off the scale.    Perhaps only rivalled by the deluded ramblings of a psychotic dictator in the final death throes of power.      

[Justin Z]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

If that's genuine (it's debatable) then it's a level of lunacy off the scale.    Perhaps only rivalled by the deluded ramblings of a psychotic dictator in the final death throes of power.      

 

True, although I think we're being naive if we don't think Varadkar et al aren't hoping that they'll have a new government to get to negotiate with now that the Benn Act passed. Would that lead to a more comprehensive deal for all involved? Maybe--and a large part of that will be because negotiations from Number 10 might actually be undertaken in good faith rather than the arch-Brexit lunacy approach to date.

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

If that's genuine (it's debatable) then it's a level of lunacy off the scale.    Perhaps only rivalled by the deluded ramblings of a psychotic dictator in the final death throes of power.      

 

Pretty reliable.

 

Latest from EU is N.Ireland needs to be in Customs Union.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49970267

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

True, although I think we're being naive if we don't think Varadkar et al aren't hoping that they'll have a new government to get to negotiate with now that the Benn Act passed. Would that lead to a more comprehensive deal for all involved? Maybe--and a large part of that will be because negotiations from Number 10 might actually be undertaken in good faith rather than the arch-Brexit lunacy approach to date.

 

If they think that Varadkar is taking a reckless gamble on a soft Brexit against no deal then they're deluded.    There is no way whatsoever that Varadkar was prepared to accept a deal that has since been sabotaged by the existence of the Benn act.     If there was any form of agreement possible in line with what the UK side were proposing then Varadkar would proceed with it.     The existence of the Benn act and the speculative possibilities arising from it will have no bearing on Varadkar's strategy.     The avoidance of no deal will always be paramount to Ireland.     

 

The attempt to suggest that the Benn act presents itself as something to thwart negotiations with Ireland is utterly false.    It's just crude rhetoric to attach blame to others.

[Justin Z]

I think that piece in particular, from a clearly batty individual, and a purely batty publication, is most certainly taking it too far.

I do also think Leo and the others are relieved and hopeful they may have a chance to have real negotiations (and that is a good thing).

[RobboM]

On 31/08/2017 at 12:18, jumpship said:

After the third round of talks.

 

No decisive dicisions have been made.

 

UK demands are simply unattainable.

 

EU, No clarity on border issue.

 

UK, EU needs to be flexible.

 

Its all going well then.

Opening post in this thread, more than 2 years ago.
How things have moved on? Absolutely **** all
 

[jumpship]

4 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

If that's genuine (it's debatable) then it's a level of lunacy off the scale.    Perhaps only rivalled by the deluded ramblings of a psychotic dictator in the final death throes of power.      

 

So, if talks go nowhere this week, the next phase will require us to set out our view on the Surrender Act.

The Britnats will love that...

 

 

We will make clear privately and publicly that countries which oppose delay will go the front of the queue for future cooperation — cooperation on things both within and outside EU competences. Those who support  delay will go to the bottom of the queue. [This source also made clear that defence and security cooperation will inevitably be affected.

 

That is how pathetic Westminster is, "If we don't get what we want, lives will be put at risk" That's evil. 

 

 

[Victorian]

8 minutes ago, jumpship said:

 

So, if talks go nowhere this week, the next phase will require us to set out our view on the Surrender Act.

The Britnats will love that...

 

 

We will make clear privately and publicly that countries which oppose delay will go the front of the queue for future cooperation — cooperation on things both within and outside EU competences. Those who support  delay will go to the bottom of the queue. [This source also made clear that defence and security cooperation will inevitably be affected.

 

That is how pathetic Westminster is, "If we don't get what we want, lives will be put at risk" That's evil. 

 

 

 

Malfeasance.     It seems to me to be entirely credible that a case could be demonstrated in a scenario where someone / some people die as a result of no deal implications.

 

If there's enough of a will then there will be a way.

[DETTY29]

 

Unbelivable, well not really.

 

And if we had an referendum tomorrow, I don't think the result would be that different.

 

The 85+year olds who properly remember the horrors of WW2 voted in the majority to remain will be dying off.

 

Unless a parody, this does appear to be the official Leave EU stance.

 

Hitler has last laugh on the UK after all.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by DETTY29