Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Cade]

Rory Stewart resigns the whip and will quit as an MP at the next election.

 

Boris is not doing well

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Maybe but once in a generation, once in a lifetime has not been respected.

 

One person saying this once, and quote mined out of context--whereas it's said nowhere in any official documentation, statute, agreement, or anything else related to the actual process or referendum, means--who cares if that one person's selective quotation hasn't been respected?

[Brighton Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

One person saying this once, and quote mined out of context--whereas it's said nowhere in any official documentation, statute, agreement, or anything else related to the actual process or referendum, means--who cares if that one person's selective quotation hasn't been respected?

It wasnt just some random on TV.  It was the first minister of Scotland!  

 

Also you are wrong:

 

The Scottish Government's official publication on the independence referendum stated that "It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity", a point reiterated a few days before the vote by the SNP's then-leader, Alex Salmond, noting the eighteen-year gap ...

Edited October 4, 2019 by Brighton Jambo

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

It wasnt just some random on TV.  It was the first minister of Scotland!  

 

In which he said it was his view that it was a once in a generation opportunity as a means of exhorting people to vote in favour of it. Political rhetoric. He expressed this personal view in contrast to the only political requirement being a mandate at a later general election.

 

So stop quote mining him. It's intellectually dishonest.

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Justin Z

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Maybe but once in a generation, once in a lifetime has not been respected.

 

and before someone argues that Brexit is a significant enough change to warrant a second indyref I just dont buy it.  If brexit hadn’t happened they would have engineered another reason, be that successive Tory governments that ‘Scotland didn’t vote for’ or some other exaggerated reason to justify it.  

 

As you are entitled to, but it is quite a significant upheaval, allied to Scotland's demonstrable refutation of such folly!

 

If something like that isn't significant change, I'm not really sure what is.

 

In the meantime the Scottish electorate still return an indy majority parliament.  The schizoid nature of Scottish politics!

 

Regards the once in a generation/lifetime chat...a soundbite has been taken as if it were part of the rules of the first referendum.  So, in relation to Brexit, should we be exposing the brexiteers that said we should remain in the single market/CU but are now advocating no deal?  Or Rees-Mogg when he mentioned a second referendum?

 

If all anyone has against a second indy ref is "but they said it was once in a generation", then that's pretty much the barrel being scraped.  It also suggests a lack of faith in being able to win it.   

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

If all anyone has against a second indy ref is "but they said it was once in a generation", then that's pretty much the barrel being scraped.  It also suggests a lack of faith in being able to win it.   

 

And a lack of good faith argumentation, imo.

[Brighton Jambo]

9 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

In which he said it was his view that it was a once in a generation opportunity as a means of exhorting people to vote in favour of it. Political rhetoric. He expressed this personal view in contrast to the only political requirement being a mandate at a later general election.

 

So stop quote mining him. It's intellectually dishonest.

 

You completely ignored the second part of my post?  Why?  In case you missed it....

 

The Scottish Government's official publication on the independence referendum stated that "It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity", a point reiterated a few days before the vote by the SNP's then-leader, Alex Salmond, noting the eighteen-year gap ...

[Brighton Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

As you are entitled to, but it is quite a significant upheaval, allied to Scotland's demonstrable refutation of such folly!

 

If something like that isn't significant change, I'm not really sure what is.

 

In the meantime the Scottish electorate still return an indy majority parliament.  The schizoid nature of Scottish politics!

 

Regards the once in a generation/lifetime chat...a soundbite has been taken as if it were part of the rules of the first referendum.  So, in relation to Brexit, should we be exposing the brexiteers that said we should remain in the single market/CU but are now advocating no deal?  Or Rees-Mogg when he mentioned a second referendum?

 

If all anyone has against a second indy ref is "but they said it was once in a generation", then that's pretty much the barrel being scraped.  It also suggests a lack of faith in being able to win it.   

It was part of the official SNP policy....

 

The Scottish Government's official publication on the independence referendum stated that "It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity", a point reiterated a few days before the vote by the SNP's then-leader, Alex Salmond, noting the eighteen-year gap ...

[Justin Z]

Just now, Brighton Jambo said:

You completely ignored the second part of my post?  Why?  In case you missed it....

 

No, you edited your post after I saw and quoted your initial post. Thanks for pointing me to it.

 

Even that publication says "opportunity". This is clearly exhortative language to me, not a statement on the only acceptable amount of time that can pass between referenda on the same subject. They couldn't see the future, they didn't know Brexit would almost immediately happen, and the then-FM said there's a mandate every time an independence party/coalition is voted in at a GE. If you disagree, fine I guess, but I think your disagreement is firmly rooted in confirmation bias.

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

It was part of the official SNP policy....

 

The Scottish Government's official publication on the independence referendum stated that "It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity", a point reiterated a few days before the vote by the SNP's then-leader, Alex Salmond, noting the eighteen-year gap ...

 

Is "view" a policy?  

 

But regardless, it was the view of the then "current Scottish Government".  That government, of course, no longer exists.

 

It would appear that it is the view of this current government that there should be another indy ref.

[Victorian]

Rory Stewart not standing in the next election due to not wishing to stand against former colleagues/supporters and to destroy old friendships,  etc... 

 

=

 

Got a better offer of a different career direction anyway.   Nap.

 

Seems a decent sort sometimes but not 100% convincing.

[kila]

8 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

It was part of the official SNP policy....

 

The Scottish Government's official publication on the independence referendum stated that "It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity", a point reiterated a few days before the vote by the SNP's then-leader, Alex Salmond, noting the eighteen-year gap ...

If I remember right the SNP also said unless exceptional circumstances and gave being dragged out of the EU as an example.

 

SNP is about independence, clue is in the name. People vote for them because that is their ultimate goal. If UK politics were rosy and fair I doubt the SNP would get so many seats. Clearly appetite for indyref2.

 

 

 

[Justin Z]

10 minutes ago, kila said:

If I remember right the SNP also said unless exceptional circumstances and gave being dragged out of the EU as an example.

 

SNP is about independence, clue is in the name. People vote for them because that is their ultimate goal. If UK politics were rosy and fair I doubt the SNP would get so many seats. Clearly appetite for indyref2.

 

But why take all that onboard when you can just microfocus on "once in a generation opportunity", out of context, ignoring all else, and casually change it all over the place to "once in a lifetime referendum", in order to fashion a stick out of strawmen with which to beat anyone you wish? Surely that's not a completely bankrupt thing to do, logically and rhetorically?

[Pans Jambo]

36 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

You completely ignored the second part of my post?  Why?  In case you missed it....

 

The Scottish Government's official publication on the independence referendum stated that "It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity", a point reiterated a few days before the vote by the SNP's then-leader, Alex Salmond, noting the eighteen-year gap ...

"It is the view"

 

VIEW

 

NOT: It's now written down in the statute books as a law that cannot EVER be broken or amended and the Westminster Parliament of England do whatever the feck it likes to Scotland including standing on the steps of number 10 the very morning after the referendum and telling the world that England will have EVEL and Scotland has had its fun and needs to be put back into its wee box and STFU.

 

Brit nats clutching at straws why???

 

They know its almost over for their brown nosing Westminster union.

 

Tick Tock.

 

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, WageThief said:

 

The independence vote has already been "respected".  If there is another indyref then it will still have been "respected".

 

The brexit vote (remain in Scotland) naturally affects the indyref that preceded it.  It certainly provides (at the very least) an argument for having another indyref.

[Mikey1874]

Anyone at the court case in Edinburgh to aim to force the extension to be applied for? Asking if Boris can be jailed. Initial Verdict expected Monday. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Mikey1874

[WageThief]

51 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Maybe but once in a generation, once in a lifetime has not been respected.

 

and before someone argues that Brexit is a significant enough change to warrant a second indyref I just dont buy it.  If brexit hadn’t happened they would have engineered another reason, be that successive Tory governments that ‘Scotland didn’t vote for’ or some other exaggerated reason to justify it.  

 

Once in a lifetime, once in a generation is a bit contradictory - isn't it?  As others have pointed out it was not the legal terms of the ref anyway.

 

The fact you "don't buy it" isn't really much of an argument.  The fact that there are people in Scotland who want to have another referendum (or be Independent) no matter what doesn't negate the impact the Brexit referendum had on the issue of Scottish independence.

 

There will be a desire for independence or there will not be.  That desire will come from wherever it will come, be it successive Tory governments, or a victory against the Germans uniting Britain.  The country will then vote, or not.

 

Whether you personally like it, buy it, or pretend to be a shitty lawyer and make up quasi-legal precedents about previous referendums is up to you.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Maybe but once in a generation, once in a lifetime has not been respected.

 

So?

Is sticking religiously to a phrase from half a decade ago more important than dealing democratically with the massively different reality we now face?

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

Why?

 

Then there should definitely be no Indyref 2 then. The people spoke. 

 

Am i right

 

Touché, Alim.

[Brighton Jambo]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

So?

Is sticking religiously to a phrase from half a decade ago more important than dealing democratically with the massively different reality we now face?

Yes!  But then I don’t want independence!!

[King prawn]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

So?

Is sticking religiously to a phrase from half a decade ago more important than dealing democratically with the massively different reality we now face?

I've never understood the attitude of religiously sticking to something without question. 

 

Imagine if that precedence was maintained in the legal system despite any new facts that have come to light. 

[Brighton Jambo]

47 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

Once in a lifetime, once in a generation is a bit contradictory - isn't it?  As others have pointed out it was not the legal terms of the ref anyway.

 

The fact you "don't buy it" isn't really much of an argument.  The fact that there are people in Scotland who want to have another referendum (or be Independent) no matter what doesn't negate the impact the Brexit referendum had on the issue of Scottish independence.

 

There will be a desire for independence or there will not be.  That desire will come from wherever it will come, be it successive Tory governments, or a victory against the Germans uniting Britain.  The country will then vote, or not.

 

Whether you personally like it, buy it, or pretend to be a shitty lawyer and make up quasi-legal precedents about previous referendums is up to you.

That’s fair, I just don’t want independence and the best way to see that happen is don’t allow a second referendum.  I know it’s not fair or democratic but there’s nothing the Scottish government can do so long may that stance continue.  

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yes!  But then I don’t want independence!!

 

Then let's not pretend the stance is about protecting or respecting democracy.

[Brighton Jambo]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

"It is the view"

 

VIEW

 

NOT: It's now written down in the statute books as a law that cannot EVER be broken or amended and the Westminster Parliament of England do whatever the feck it likes to Scotland including standing on the steps of number 10 the very morning after the referendum and telling the world that England will have EVEL and Scotland has had its fun and needs to be put back into its wee box and STFU.

 

Brit nats clutching at straws why???

 

They know its almost over for their brown nosing Westminster union.

 

Tick Tock.

 

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

My point was more that it was more just Alex Salmonds view in an interview which a bunch of posters seem to claim is the only source of that quote.  

 

The Conservatives look like they will win the next election.  They won’t grant a second Scottish independence referendum so you will be waiting at least 5 years.  You should be pleased about that as despite everything that has happened there is still barely a poll around that has yes ahead.  How is that even possible?!

 

 

[Brighton Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Then let's not pretend the stance is about protecting or respecting democracy.

Yeah but it really winds people up so it’s fun.  

 

And to to be fair I was proving to some posters that this notion that ‘only Alex Salmond said it in one interview’ is totally incorrect 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Brighton Jambo

[Pans Jambo]

13 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

My point was more that it was more just Alex Salmonds view in an interview which a bunch of posters seem to claim is the only source of that quote.  

 

The Conservatives look like they will win the next election.  They won’t grant a second Scottish independence referendum so you will be waiting at least 5 years.  You should be pleased about that as despite everything that has happened there is still barely a poll around that has yes ahead.  How is that even possible?!

 

 

The argument about not “letting” Scotland have its say will soon be over. Next GE will be a landslide SNP victory in Scotland to enforce the already voted for mandate in Holyrood. 

 

The Westminster position is just a sabre rattling exercise to keep their Unionist muppets happy. 

 

Its all over bar the singing. 

[Francis Albert]

10 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Good lord, FA, even by your own standards that's pretty poor form.

 

I'd be ashamed of a post like that.

And I would be ashamed to use the words concentration camp  in relation to Israel to deliberately suggest some sort of equivalence with Nazi Germany. 

 

[Notts1874]

Government documents submitted to the Court of Session say the PM will send a letter to the EU asking for an extension if no deal is in place by October 19th. Now can somebody remind me what the PM said to Parliament earlier this week?

[Footballfirst]

The "Nobile Officium" petition to force the PM to send an extension request in the event of no deal being agreed before 19 Oct is currently being progressed at the CoS.

 

Live tweeted updates from James Doleman and Severin Carrell

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman

https://twitter.com/severincarrell

[Footballfirst]

2 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Government documents submitted to the Court of Session say the PM will send a letter to the EU asking for an extension if no deal is in place by October 19th. Now can somebody remind me what the PM said to Parliament earlier this week?

[Brighton Jambo]

12 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

The argument about not “letting” Scotland have its say will soon be over. Next GE will be a landslide SNP victory in Scotland to enforce the already voted for mandate in Holyrood. 

 

The Westminster position is just a sabre rattling exercise to keep their Unionist muppets happy. 

 

Its all over bar the singing. 

Do you think BJ will give a flying @@@@ what mandate the SNP claim.  He will keep saying no and there’s nothing they can do about it.  

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

Fairly sure that's not what he said in Parliament this week.

[annushorribilis III]

18 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Only nearly impossible? 

Ask GvH. If you're really interested- which you're not. 

[Governor Tarkin]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

And I would be ashamed to use the words concentration camp  in relation to Israel to deliberately suggest some sort of equivalence with Nazi Germany. 

 

 

That doesn't make what you said alright though. 

 

"I mean they had after all  the "rest of their life".

 

FFS. Forced from your home at gunpoint and into a camp.

"At least we're no deid though so that's a bonus, eh"

 

At what point does being forcibly herded into a refugee/concentration camp become less of a ballache?

When you've been stripped of your previous home, life, dignity, and liberty?

Or does only being gassed to death register on your 'this is a bit ****ing shite' scale?

[Footballfirst]

A couple of tweets from Jo Maugham

 

Jo Maugham QC@JolyonMaugham

The difficulty that arises if you give an affidavit is that you can be exposed under cross-examination as not having told the truth. The difficulty if you don't give an affidavit is that the court wonders why you didn't and draws the inference you might not be telling the truth.

 

Jo Maugham QC @JolyonMaugham

The Government is saying that it will send the Benn Act letter and it will not frustrate the Act (i.e. by seeking to persuade a r27 Member State to veto our request for an extension). So what is left of the Prime Minister's promise that we will leave on 31.10?

[annushorribilis III]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

A couple of tweets from Jo Maugham

 

Jo Maugham QC@JolyonMaugham

The difficulty that arises if you give an affidavit is that you can be exposed under cross-examination as not having told the truth. The difficulty if you don't give an affidavit is that the court wonders why you didn't and draws the inference you might not be telling the truth.

 

Jo Maugham QC @JolyonMaugham

The Government is saying that it will send the Benn Act letter and it will not frustrate the Act (i.e. by seeking to persuade a r27 Member State to veto our request for an extension). So what is left of the Prime Minister's promise that we will leave on 31.10?

From Lorna Gordon - 

"So to repeat government documents submitted to court of session say PM will send a letter asking the EU for an extension if no deal is in place by October 19th. But O'Neill says this is in direct contraction to what pm said earlier this week to Parliament."

 

Seems to me this is quite clever - using BJs own words to demonstrate he is lying to the court in an affidavit. So, force him to do it. 

[Mikey1874]

Boris said previously No Deal was about negotiating with the EU. To show them they were serious. 

 

So if negotiations now enter a meaningful period with trust on both sides and a firm commitment to get a deal, then asking for an extension isn't such a big deal. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yes!  But then I don’t want independence!!

Better together.

.

[Boof]

53 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yeah but it really winds people up so it’s fun.  

 

And to to be fair I was proving to some posters that this notion that ‘only Alex Salmond said it in one interview’ is totally incorrect 

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

https://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/guidelines/

 

16. No trolling. Trolling is the act of posting with the explicit and sole intent of annoying other members

[Brighton Jambo]

1 minute ago, Boof said:

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

https://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/guidelines/

 

16. No trolling. Trolling is the act of posting with the explicit and sole intent of annoying other members

Which is why I added the second part as I was trying to make a serious point about the misconception that only Alex Salmond said about once in a generation.  He didn’t and I think the people who claim that’s where that came from are either ignorant or trolling.  

[Brighton Jambo]

4 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Better together.

.

Ah the laughing emoji.  The tragic response of the inarticulate.

[Boris]

26 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Do you think BJ will give a flying @@@@ what mandate the SNP claim.  He will keep saying no and there’s nothing they can do about it.  

 

What if said landslide was won on an independence platform a la the tactic pre Holyrood?

[Notts1874]

It took a long time to dig this but it seems it will all be worthwhile.

[Brighton Jambo]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

What if said landslide was won on an independence platform a la the tactic pre Holyrood?

I still think Boris would keep saying no.  I don’t actually think that’s right and it’s certainly not democratic but it’s what I think he would do.

 

I don’t know if he’s thinking that far ahead but I wonder if he’s trying to push the SNP into holding an unauthorised referendum as that would seriously damage their cause both here and in the eyes of Europe.   

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Ah the laughing emoji.  The tragic response of the inarticulate.

Strange that you replied to this post and not another post which you ignored.

Says a lot about you.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I still think Boris would keep saying no.  I don’t actually think that’s right and it’s certainly not democratic but it’s what I think he would do.

 

I don’t know if he’s thinking that far ahead but I wonder if he’s trying to push the SNP into holding an unauthorised referendum as that would seriously damage their cause both here and in the eyes of Europe.   

 

Or a declaration of UDi based on the Westminster result.

 

Pretty sure there is precedence internationally.

 

Boris continually saying no will only lead to one outcome, so I'd suggest that's a self defeating tactic on his part.

[Brighton Jambo]

1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Strange that you replied to this post and not another post which you ignored.

Says a lot about you.

Keep your snidey childish views to yourself.  I response to pretty much every post I am quoted in, what one are you referring to that I missed? 

[Notts1874]

Brighton is such a polite and chilled place usually.

[Brighton Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Or a declaration of UDi based on the Westminster result.

 

Pretty sure there is precedence internationally.

 

Boris continually saying no will only lead to one outcome, so I'd suggest that's a self defeating tactic on his part.

But a declaration of UDI would be open to legal challenge and would get so messy.  For example The no voters would claim that until the SNP get more votes in an election than voted no last time and this would get dragged through the courts.  Plus the UK government could refuse to honour it.  I’m sure that’s not how anyone wants Scottish independence to be achieved.

 

i do agree though, long term the plan will backfire.

 

 

[Brighton Jambo]

1 minute ago, Notts1874 said:

Brighton is such a polite and chilled place usually.

Must be because I live in Glasgow! It’s rubbing off!!