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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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AlphonseCapone

Customs union without single market access is a waste of time to Scotland, as well as freedom of movement. 

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1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

No it bloody isnt!

Never forget why we are up to our waist wading through this shite! The tax dodging tories put us in this position with their infighting. Cameron gave them the Brexit vote to stop a tory civil war & guess what, theres now a tory civil war!

Scotland voted to remain in the EU & but the bare minimum, we should at least have the customs union & the free market. 

Why shoukd the Scottish MP’s vote to bump along a deal that nobody in Scotland wants or voted for?

Now Brexit failure is the SNP’s fault aye?

Geez peace! The right wing, tax dodging, facist party that is splintered into at least 3 groups should be the focus here, not 35 SMP MP’s!

Scotland is still part of the UK and now is a time for compromise on all sides. The SNP acting as if Scotland is a separate entity from the rUK at this stage is purely to frustrate the process. A Process that over 1 in 3 Scots actually wants. When this is all over and if we do end up leaving should it then become the SNP's Westminster policy to waste time trying to bring about Scottish specific trade deals and the like because 'Scotland never voted to leave'? That would be ridiculous. 

 

You can't moan at May being stubborn for enacting what the UK as a whole voted for whilst supporting the SNP to argue what Scotland voted for. It's incompatible and May would win everytime, and at this stage rightly so.

 

And that's coming from an SNP/Independence voter. 

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21 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

UK / EU Customs union would be a big help to an independent Scotland being admitted to the EU. 

Wouldn't No deal be the biggest help? That's what I'm holding out for.

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jack D and coke

I find this sort of thing incredible. We might end up with a PM that hasn’t ever really given any thought to Scotland. 

****ing hilarious :lol: 

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Francis Albert

I find the thing becoming daily more surreal, with the Commons now negotiating with itself on eight more or less ill-defined alternatives to May's deal, which of course is not just May's deal but the EU's deal, painfully negotiated over two years and agreed by all 27 of the other members. And even when it is just the UK Commons, without the inconvenience of actually thrashing out the terms with the other parties who have to agree them, STILL unable secure a majority for any of the alternatives. 

The May/EU deal delivers much of what the Leave vote was about, certainly more than any of the alternatives, and the EU has to its credit delivered it unanimously. Yet these who pledged to "respect the vote" carry on scratching away, many if not most quite cynically  in the hope that in the end the "respected vote" vote will be reversed.

Edited by Francis Albert
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25 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Scotland is still part of the UK and now is a time for compromise on all sides. The SNP acting as if Scotland is a separate entity from the rUK at this stage is purely to frustrate the process. A Process that over 1 in 3 Scots actually wants. When this is all over and if we do end up leaving should it then become the SNP's Westminster policy to waste time trying to bring about Scottish specific trade deals and the like because 'Scotland never voted to leave'? That would be ridiculous. 

 

You can't moan at May being stubborn for enacting what the UK as a whole voted for whilst supporting the SNP to argue what Scotland voted for. It's incompatible and May would win everytime, and at this stage rightly so.

 

And that's coming from an SNP/Independence voter. 

 

 

Scotland's electorate are also still part of the UK and it is the SNPs duty to represent their views in parliament. That means not voting for pro-brexit policy.

 

The SNP are now in a strong position where they can conceivably tip an indicative vote to Aye and you're suggesting the should have just caved in and done it at the first time of asking? Personally I'm glad they hold Scotland's interests a little more dearly than that.

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Francis Albert
2 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

No it bloody isnt!

Never forget why we are up to our waist wading through this shite! The tax dodging tories put us in this position with their infighting. Cameron gave them the Brexit vote to stop a tory civil war & guess what, theres now a tory civil war!

Scotland voted to remain in the EU & but the bare minimum, we should at least have the customs union & the free market. Why shoukd the Scottish MP’s vote to bump along

a deal that nobody in Scotland wants or voted for?

Now Brexit failure is the SNP’s fault aye?

Geez peace! The right wing, tax dodging, facist party that is splintered into at least 3 groups should be the focus here, not 35 SMP MP’s!

Except the million that voted Leave?

And the referendum delivered a majority in the UK for leave. The people were given a choice, on something which many feel strongly about, however ill advised and whatever the motives for holding the vote were.

I think you need to look a bit beyond the "right wing, tax dodging, fascist party" to explain why we are where we are.

Edited by Francis Albert
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England:

53.38% leave 

46.62% remain

 

Northern Ireland:

42.22% leave

55.78% remain

 

Scotland:

38% leave

62% remain

 

Wales: 

52.53% leave

47.47% remain

 

SNP, acting in the interests of Scottish voters,  have a larger mandate from their voters than anybody else.

This is why they support blocking Brexit totally.

Edited by Cade
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8 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

Scotland's electorate are also still part of the UK and it is the SNPs duty to represent their views in parliament. That means not voting for pro-brexit policy.

 

The SNP are now in a strong position where they can conceivably tip an indicative vote to Aye and you're suggesting the should have just caved in and done it at the first time of asking? Personally I'm glad they hold Scotland's interests a little more dearly than that.

 

Correct.   The SNP are working on the basis of a staged position.    Preferred option,  then fall back position(s).     Similar to Labour's roadmap but not as convoluted.    

 

One thing is certain.     The majority of Tory MPs will not move behind a compromise,  softer Brexit.     For them it's back May's deal (not overly concerned by no deal outcome),    hold out for no deal or basically not bothered one way or another.      Soft Brexit is very damaging for the Tory party and most of them know that.      A soft Brexit does not close the book on the Tory party internal struggle over Europe.     It would fester on and could split them.      There is too much mutual interest at stake and they'll be desperate to protect the party over anything else.

 

Labour will be damaged at the ballot box in any scenario but there is not the same risk of an ongoing internal war and party split.    They'll just have to deal with the aftermath as best as possible.

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
1 minute ago, Cade said:

England:

53.38% leave 

46.62% remain

 

Northern Ireland:

42.22% leave

55.78% remain

 

Scotland:

38% leave

62% remain

 

Wales: 

52.53% leave

47.47% remain

 

SNP, acting in the interests of Scottish voter,  have a larger mandate from their voters than anybody else.

This is why they support blocking Brexit totally.

Correct. They're just looking to protect Scotland's right to stop brexit.

In the same way everyone only goes on about what the English want and **** everyone else. 

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50 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Scotland is still part of the UK and now is a time for compromise on all sides. The SNP acting as if Scotland is a separate entity from the rUK at this stage is purely to frustrate the process. A Process that over 1 in 3 Scots actually wants. When this is all over and if we do end up leaving should it then become the SNP's Westminster policy to waste time trying to bring about Scottish specific trade deals and the like because 'Scotland never voted to leave'? That would be ridiculous. 

 

You can't moan at May being stubborn for enacting what the UK as a whole voted for whilst supporting the SNP to argue what Scotland voted for. It's incompatible and May would win everytime, and at this stage rightly so.

 

And that's coming from an SNP/Independence voter. 

The fact is the SNP have not changed their position. Dont forget for the last 1000 days it was the SNP who held out the olive branch and offered an alternative pathway but were ignored by Westminster. 

I dont understand why anyone would vote to make their lot worse after knowing what we now know. 

The position of the people has obviously changed and if it hasnt, them theres nothing to lose by having a peoples vote is there?

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Dominic Raab STILL going on about getting the EU to open up negotiations on the backstop.     Apparently their resolve hasn't been tested.      

 

Tory fool stuck in the land of makebelieve.     Or leadership positioning.

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Francis Albert
1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Can't believe I'm having to do the Spain thing, assumed it was common knowledge their position on Scotland but just in case;

 

 

 

 

Statements I think more for domestic consumption than anything else. Certainly there is more chance of the UK breaking up than Spain because the UK is prepared to comtemplate  separation and even facilitate it as in the Indyrefs and the Good Friday Agreement (where we agree the terms for ceding Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland) show. Spain on the other hand imprisons separatists.

There is no doubt an independent Scotland will be able to join the EU. The process and timetable are however uncertain.

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JC banging on about "how the snp got Thatcher into power" on twitter this morning.

Nicola slapped him down within minutes.

 

Anybody would think an election was in the air

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12 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Except the million that voted Leave?

And the referendum delivered a majority in the UK for leave. The people were given a choice, on something which many feel strongly about, however ill advised and whatever the motives for holding the vote were.

I think you need to look a bit beyond the "right wing, tax dodging, fascist party" to explain why we are where we are.

Why we are where we are???

1 word...

 

Tories!

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1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

The fact is the SNP have not changed their position. Dont forget for the last 1000 days it was the SNP who held out the olive branch and offered an alternative pathway but were ignored by Westminster. 

I dont understand why anyone would vote to make their lot worse after knowing what we now know. 

The position of the people has obviously changed and if it hasnt, them theres nothing to lose by having a peoples vote is there?

They are acting in the same way as many tory MP's and many Labour MP's. They are trying to stop the UK leaving the EU because they don't give a shite about democracy. Unfortunately for them, they have in fact increased the likelihood of no deal. I wonder how their constituents will feel about that 

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Francis Albert
1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Why we are where we are???

1 word...

 

Tories!

OK I didn't really expect you to look beyond that!

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AlphonseCapone
Just now, SE16 3LN said:

They are acting in the same way as many tory MP's and many Labour MP's. They are trying to stop the UK leaving the EU because they don't give a shite about democracy. Unfortunately for them, they have in fact increased the likelihood of no deal. I wonder how their constituents will feel about that 

 

How simplistic. 

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Just now, Francis Albert said:

OK I didn't really expect you to look beyond that!

OK explain what youre fishing for then?

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1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

While campaigning to revoke article 50 and bin Brexit does?

That's a really fair point Boris.

I was probably overly cynical when thinking that as  Norway option to me would settle a lot of internal UK political wrangling and people would be tired of another constitutional exercise  whereas as a revoke (my preference after another vote as it happens) would still ensure chaos for years and help a push for independence.

Like I say, on reflection,  probably too much cynicism on my part.

Not as cynical as some on the Labour side who claim the SNP want a no deal mind you.

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1 minute ago, SE16 3LN said:

They are acting in the same way as many tory MP's and many Labour MP's. They are trying to stop the UK leaving the EU because they don't give a shite about democracy. Unfortunately for them, they have in fact increased the likelihood of no deal. I wonder how their constituents will feel about that 

 

They are trying to stop Scotland leaving the EU, because they care about democracy. The people they represent are having their views ignored due to being part of the UK.

 

They also haven't made No deal more likely. If anything they've probably made it less likely as others now know the SNP are potential kingmakers for the other options.

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Francis Albert
11 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

OK explain what youre fishing for then?

?

In the post you replied to I was just expressing an opinion not fishing for anything.

And I acknowledged in reply to your reply that you were not going to change your opinion.

Fair enough.

Edited by Francis Albert
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19 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

They are trying to stop Scotland leaving the EU, because they care about democracy. The people they represent are having their views ignored due to being part of the UK.

 

They also haven't made No deal more likely. If anything they've probably made it less likely as others now know the SNP are potential kingmakers for the other options.

They are trying to block the implementation of the referendum result. Dress it up as you want but democratic it is not.

 

In terms of the last point I think time will show you to be wrong, but we don't know yet.

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SNP represent the people of Scotland.

Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain.

SNP are carrying out their wishes as best they can.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

They are trying to block the implementation of the referendum result. Dress it up as you want but democratic it is not.

 

In terms of the last point I think time will show you to be wrong, but we don't know yet.

They are trying to IMPLEMENT the referendum result because as much as you may like to dress it up, the SNP represent the country of Scotland and their constituents NOT Englandshire and Scotland voted to remain however; despite this, THEY were the party that tried to build consensus over the last two and a half years but were ignored.

May and her lot are STILL trying to get her dodgy deal through via the MV3.

 

Its a crock of shit!

Edited by Pans Jambo
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I find myself hoplessly perplexed that someone who is evidently not an SNP supporter is being critical of the SNP's Brexit strategy,    without actually understanding what it is.      What an astounding revelation.

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AlphonseCapone
1 minute ago, Victorian said:

I find myself hoplessly perplexed that someone who is evidently not an SNP supporter is being critical of the SNP's Brexit strategy,    without actually understanding what it is.      What an astounding revelation.

 

It's simple ignorance mixed in with arrogance. English establishment is rife with the attitude. 

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That’s what the issue is here. Yes, the SNP abstaining on an indicative vote.

 

A government led by an absolute psychopath, taking the country to the brink is neither here nor there in the eyes of some. As long as the opportunity exists to throw mud at the big bad ‘separatists’. Irony much, lol.

 

At least we seem to have moved on from the ‘Labour haven’t offered an alternative’ rhetoric, however.

 

 

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I think people tend to find comfort in occupying some kind of contrary or alternate belief position to the fairly obvious reality.     Maybe it serves to compensate the individual from the reality that,    as a collective,    we are all in a position of complete political impotency,    thanks mainly to a dictatorial government exploiting a profoundly weak political system.

 

Blaming characters around the margins is easier than coming to terms with how ****ed we all are.

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24 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

They are trying to IMPLEMENT the referendum result because as much as you may like to dress it up, the SNP represent the country of Scotland and their constituents NOT Englandshire and Scotland voted to remain however; despite this, THEY were the party that tried to build consensus over the last two and a half years but were ignored.

May and her lot are STILL trying to get her dodgy deal through via the MV3.

 

Its a crock of shit!

It was a UK vote

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2 minutes ago, Cade said:

SO the entire Brexit mess is the SNP's fault?

 

:cornette:

I like when you do that. Make something up and then state it as fact. At the very start of this thread you were blaming the elderly for Brexit. Do you still stand by that?

 

Nobody has said "the entire Brexit mess is the SNP's fault". You just made it up.

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The Real Maroonblood
1 hour ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Correct. They're just looking to protect Scotland's right to stop brexit.

In the same way everyone only goes on about what the English want and **** everyone else. 

Fair point.

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10 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

It was a UK vote

 

 

Yes but the SNP only represent their constituents. The parts of the UK who voted leave have theirs to represent them. That's how it works.

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The Real Maroonblood
9 minutes ago, Cade said:

SO the entire Brexit mess is the SNP's fault?

 

:cornette:

That’s the way it’s going.

No surprise.

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The Real Maroonblood
13 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

It was a UK vote

It was but it’s all about what England want.

**** the rest.

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The entire enterprise was about resolving an aged Tory Party conflict.    The country was burdened by the aftermath of the result.      Now we seem to be being informed that everyone else should automatically facilitate the Tory Party's failed attempts to minimise the damage.

 

Nut.   **** right off with yourself.

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1 minute ago, Victorian said:

The entire enterprise was about resolving an aged Tory Party conflict.    The country was burdened by the aftermath of the result.      Now we seem to be being informed that everyone else should automatically facilitate the Tory Party's failed attempts to minimise the damage.

 

Nut.   **** right off with yourself.

 

Image result for bullseye

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38 minutes ago, Victorian said:

I find myself hoplessly perplexed that someone who is evidently not an SNP supporter is being critical of the SNP's Brexit strategy,    without actually understanding what it is.      What an astounding revelation.

What a pile of Sanctimonious crap, sadly much in keeping with your normal output. The SNP's Brexit strategy isn't really that complicated Andrew, although it has been fluid for public consumption, and is available from most good news outlets and even some shite ones. Yesterday it became what it always has been really.

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4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The entire enterprise was about resolving an aged Tory Party conflict.    The country was burdened by the aftermath of the result.      Now we seem to be being informed that everyone else should automatically facilitate the Tory Party's failed attempts to minimise the damage.

 

Nut.   **** right off with yourself.

 

Indeed. Despite it sounding simplistic, this all arose and is still continuing in the manner it is due to the Tories being concerned about a potentially fatal schism within their own party. They'd rather feck up the country than risk breaking up their party. No surprise there.

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14 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

Yes but the SNP only represent their constituents. The parts of the UK who voted leave have theirs to represent them. That's how it works.

No it isn't, otherwise there would be no point in a peoples vote, which is what the Scottish parliament wanted until yesterday :laugh2:

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23 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

It was a UK vote

Its the SCOTTISH National Party. They represent their constituents in the soverign country of Scotland. 

Do you expect them to vote in Parliment against their own people’s wishes as represented in the 62% two thirds majority who voted to remain a part of the EU just because England did?

Whats the DUP doing?

Scottish independence is in the post. 

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1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Its the SCOTTISH National Party. They represent their constituents in the soverign country of Scotland. 

Do you expect them to vote in Parliment against their own people’s wishes as represented in the 62% two thirds majority who voted to remain a part of the EU just because England did?

Whats the DUP doing?

Scottish independence is in the post. 

If you're not going to stand by the outcome of the vote, you shouldn't take part in it. THE DUP are anti gay marriage, anti abortion, and agreeing with the SNP.  

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The Real Maroonblood
5 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Its the SCOTTISH National Party. They represent their constituents in the soverign country of Scotland. 

Do you expect them to vote in Parliment against their own people’s wishes as represented in the 62% two thirds majority who voted to remain a part of the EU just because England did?

Whats the DUP doing?

Scottish independence is in the post. 

:greatpost:

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AlphonseCapone
7 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Its the SCOTTISH National Party. They represent their constituents in the soverign country of Scotland. 

Do you expect them to vote in Parliment against their own people’s wishes as represented in the 62% two thirds majority who voted to remain a part of the EU just because England did?

Whats the DUP doing?

Scottish independence is in the post. 

 

Amazing it needs explained to anyone. 

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Just now, SE16 3LN said:

If you're not going to stand by the outcome of the vote, you shouldn't take part in it. THE DUP are anti gay marriage, anti abortion, and agreeing with the SNP.  

I did vote & I stand by it. 

One way or another, Scotland will be an EU member. 

DUP agreeing with the SNP how? If they voted similarly it’ll be for completely different reasons so your view is a tad simplistic. 

 

There needs to be a peoples vote because nobody is going to agree to anything in Westminster. Thats obvious. 

 

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

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