Iain Cathro ongoing Poll and discussion Thread

[kingantti1874]

Wrong...its a 'right off' because of the eejits who hounded Neilson out the door. Probably the same eejits who are trying to hound out Cathro now!

Get a grip man, there was a very small minority who wanted Neilston out because of his shite record in big games.. There's great deal of hearts fans who don't think cathro is the man because eh.. His record is the poorest of any full time manager in the 143 year history of the club - can't think why people wouldn't be happy at that can you

[Buffalo Bill]

Fair enough - I admire your faith even though I think it is based on optimism rather than evidence. I hope you are right

 

I'd say it's based on fairness and arriving at a conclusion based on what I assume to be true.

 

Before Cathro became "the worst manager in Hearts history" @mitch41, he was a highly rated young coach at Dundee Utd, Rio Ave, Valencia and Newcastle Utd. Not bad for a pasty wee guy from Dundee.

 

There are certain personal factors to consider. He is intelligent. He is considered to be a bright coach. He is ambitious. He is confident.

 

Then there are circumstantial factors; he knows what he has to do in the summer, he will have learned from previous mistakes. He has a window of opportunity to re-structure the squad. He knows what type of player is required. He has the respect of the players.

 

Then there are club factors. He has a decent budget to work with compared with many other SPFLP teams. The structure of the club (CEO, DoF) back him. He is at a great club.

 

Of course, it could all go south. But there are factors there that give me confidence, some of which I've explained here. I'm not sure you can class it as evidence, but I would argue it's more than just optimism, especially the blind kind.

 

And I mentioned 'fairness' at the start. I think we need to be fair to him by giving him this summer window, the next pre-season and a decent go at next season before making the call.

[Expert on the subject]

Neilson was an ex player with two relatively successful seasons under his belt (certainly by our standards) yet had he stayed leading us to the same results we have suffered since December he would have been emptied, so why is the tolerance more for Cathro when he achieved nothing?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Wrong...its a 'right off' because of the eejits who hounded Neilson out the door. Probably the same eejits who are trying to hound out Cathro now!

Wrong for the 9 millionth time. Neilson left of his own volition.

[Zico]

.

[the big show]

I'd say it's based on fairness and arriving at a conclusion based on what I assume to be true.

 

Before Cathro became "the worst manager in Hearts history" @mitch41, he was a highly rated young coach at Dundee Utd, Rio Ave, Valencia and Newcastle Utd. Not bad for a pasty wee guy from Dundee.

 

There are certain personal factors to consider. He is intelligent. He is considered to be a bright coach. He is ambitious. He is confident.

 

Then there are circumstantial factors; he knows what he has to do in the summer, he will have learned from previous mistakes. He has a window of opportunity to re-structure the squad. He knows what type of player is required. He has the respect of the players.

 

Then there are club factors. He has a decent budget to work with compared with many other SPFLP teams. The structure of the club (CEO, DoF) back him. He is at a great club.

 

Of course, it could all go south. But there are factors there that give me confidence, some of which I've explained here. I'm not sure you can class it as evidence, but I would argue it's more than just optimism, especially the blind kind.

 

And I mentioned 'fairness' at the start. I think we need to be fair to him by giving him this summer window, the next pre-season and a decent go at next season before making the call.

Talking a bout factors and fairness Robbie Neilson never seemed to learn from his mistakes in big games etc etc .. What have you seen that makes you think Cathro will ? And don't come away with yesterdays dead rubber as every time end of the season came for Neilson it was the same line trotted out every time in fact at one point it was said the players are on the hols after another dreadful performance . A think a lot of Cathro's backers is in hope rather expectation because lets be honest it has not been good enough . i wish the guy good luck and will back the team but i have serious doubts ..

[JJ1984]

Wrong for the 9 millionth time. Neilson left of his own volition.

Robbie knew his time was up. The club didn't stand in his way and had Cathro in place. Let's not start saying he pulled a Levein on the club.

[JJ1984]

I'd say it's based on fairness and arriving at a conclusion based on what I assume to be true.

 

Before Cathro became "the worst manager in Hearts history" @mitch41, he was a highly rated young coach at Dundee Utd, Rio Ave, Valencia and Newcastle Utd. Not bad for a pasty wee guy from Dundee.

 

There are certain personal factors to consider. He is intelligent. He is considered to be a bright coach. He is ambitious. He is confident.

 

Then there are circumstantial factors; he knows what he has to do in the summer, he will have learned from previous mistakes. He has a window of opportunity to re-structure the squad. He knows what type of player is required. He has the respect of the players.

 

Then there are club factors. He has a decent budget to work with compared with many other SPFLP teams. The structure of the club (CEO, DoF) back him. He is at a great club.

 

Of course, it could all go south. But there are factors there that give me confidence, some of which I've explained here. I'm not sure you can class it as evidence, but I would argue it's more than just optimism, especially the blind kind.

 

And I mentioned 'fairness' at the start. I think we need to be fair to him by giving him this summer window, the next pre-season and a decent go at next season before making the call.

Good coach, shite manager. The end.

[Buffalo Bill]

Talking a bout factors and fairness Robbie Neilson never seemed to learn from his mistakes in big games etc etc .. What have you seen that makes you think Cathro will ? And don't come away with yesterdays dead rubber as every time end of the season came for Neilson it was the same line trotted out every time in fact at one point it was said the players are on the hols after another dreadful performance . A think a lot of Cathro's backers is in hope rather expectation because lets be honest it has not been good enough . i wish the guy good luck and will back the team but i have serious doubts ..

 

I covered this already in my previous post.

[siegementality]

Good coach, shite manager. The end.

The good news he's employed as Head Coach and not manager so we have a good Head Coach.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

I'd say it's based on fairness and arriving at a conclusion based on what I assume to be true.

 

Before Cathro became "the worst manager in Hearts history" @mitch41, he was a highly rated young coach at Dundee Utd, Rio Ave, Valencia and Newcastle Utd. Not bad for a pasty wee guy from Dundee.

 

There are certain personal factors to consider. He is intelligent. He is considered to be a bright coach. He is ambitious. He is confident.

 

Then there are circumstantial factors; he knows what he has to do in the summer, he will have learned from previous mistakes. He has a window of opportunity to re-structure the squad. He knows what type of player is required. He has the respect of the players.

 

Then there are club factors. He has a decent budget to work with compared with many other SPFLP teams. The structure of the club (CEO, DoF) back him. He is at a great club.

 

Of course, it could all go south. But there are factors there that give me confidence, some of which I've explained here. I'm not sure you can class it as evidence, but I would argue it's more than just optimism, especially the blind kind.

 

And I mentioned 'fairness' at the start. I think we need to be fair to him by giving him this summer window, the next pre-season and a decent go at next season before making the call.

These clubs didn't do particularly well when Cathro was employed. Newcastle might even have been relegated?. If he is that highly rated why have no other teams made him head coach? But aye if fairness means give him enough rope to hang himself then that's what he will get.

 

IMO we might do OK next season because as you say we will have a better budget than most clubs in the league but I think it will be to some extent in spite of Cathro rather than because of him.

 

We could have reduced the risk considerably by employing a head coach with a record of building a team and achieving some success but for some daft reason that is too simple for Budge/Levein

[the big show]

I covered this already in my previous post.

oh AYE .. the bit were it says    " of course it could all go south " and you could not class it as evidence .. Come on there is not a hint of evidence there in anything we have seen up to date that could possibly make anybody confident he can turn it around .. i hope he does but like plenty others have serious doubts .

[JJ1984]

The good news he's employed as Head Coach and not manager so we have a good Head Coach.

The bad news is he's employed to bring in players, pick, motivate and manage the team, so we have a shite head coach managing us.

[siegementality]

The bad news is he's employed to bring in players, pick, motivate and manage the team, so we have a shite head coach managing us.

Seems strange that you said he was a good coach then.

[Buffalo Bill]

These clubs didn't do particularly well when Cathro was employed.

 

He was credited with the development of Souttar and Gauld at Dundee Utd. Both himself and Nuno Espirito Santo did well enough at Rio Ave to get a move to Valencia from which they qualified for a Champions League place. Newcastle did get relegated but he was the only coach that was kept on when Rafa Binitez took over. I'd say he'd done alright for a guy who has "never played the game". 

[JJ1984]

Seems strange that you said he was a good coach then.

No it doesn't. There is a massive difference from being just a coach and being a head coach in charge of the 1st team. But you know that

[kingantti1874]

He was credited with the development of Souttar and Gauld at Dundee Utd. Both himself and Nuno Espirito Santo did well enough at Rio Ave to get a move to Valencia from which they qualified for a Champions League place. Newcastle did get relegated but he was the only coach that was kept on when Rafa Binitez took over. I'd say he'd done alright for a guy who has "never played the game".

He's not done alright for us though has he.

[JJ1984]

He was credited with the development of Souttar and Gauld at Dundee Utd. Both himself and Nuno Espirito Santo did well enough at Rio Ave to get a move to Valencia from which they qualified for a Champions League place. Newcastle did get relegated but he was the only coach that was kept on when Rafa Binitez took over. I'd say he'd done alright for a guy who has "never played the game".

His position was downgraded when Rafa went in. Donald Park brought through numerous players in Edinburgh and other clubs, there's a reason he's not a head coach or manager. Cathro has a decent cv as a background coach. As a number one his stats are utterly shocking at every level from recruitment to win/loss ratio with the third biggest club in the country and there's no evidence it will get better at all apart from hope.

[Buffalo Bill]

oh AYE .. the bit were it says    " of course it could all go south " and you could not class it as evidence .. Come on there is not a hint of evidence there in anything we have seen up to date that could possibly make anybody confident he can turn it around .. i hope he does but like plenty others have serious doubts .

 

I'm not claiming to have any "evidence". I'm not even sure it's possible to provide evidence on events that haven't taken place yet, unless your name's Doc Brown from Back to the Future.

 

 

I was just stating in post #902 some of the reasons why I'm confident we'll be a better side next year. I don't anything I said was unreasonable or far-fetched.

[Buffalo Bill]

He's not done alright for us though has he.

 

 

Not so far but he needs a summer transfer window to properly build his own team and a pre-season to implement it.

 

 

Do you ever get the feeling we're going 'round in circles here?

[siegementality]

No it doesn't. There is a massive difference from being just a coach and being a head coach in charge of the 1st team. But you know that

Well I posted quotes from Don Cowie, Calumn Paterson and Isma Goncalves. All of whom were glowing in their praise of Cathro. Given that they work with Cathro on a daily basis would suggest they are better placed t judge him. Given that two of them are missing out financially on win bonuses, their view is even more valid. I think I'll take the opinion of three professional footballers over the the JKB massive, but you know that.

[deejtee]

He was credited with the development of Souttar and Gauld at Dundee Utd. Both himself and Nuno Espirito Santo did well enough at Rio Ave to get a move to Valencia from which they qualified for a Champions League place. Newcastle did get relegated but he was the only coach that was kept on when Rafa Binitez took over. I'd say he'd done alright for a guy who has "never played the game". 

Gauld who has gone off the radar and Soutar who we got for peanuts because he had too many brainfarts and was still prone to them prior to his injury. Hopefully he will get fit and improve. Whoever was coaching the dread Hibs youths a few years back did better and we have done ok too off and on. No matter how long this debate goes on the proof of it will be Cathro succeeding or failing as a manager which we all know is what he is really being employed as just now. One further thought is we are seeing some posting on here saying that opinions from those who aren't players etc should be ignored in a debate about someone whose major scource of controversy is his non playing background. I have not 100% given up on Cathro because I, like everyone else on here, don't have a crystal ball so it is all opinion without huge factual base apart from the record so far. Polite discussion should be possible and I usually find your contribution more thought provoking partly because of that. As others have said I hope you are right in your assessment and over 50 years there have been players we thought were crap who came good (although quite often they remained crap  )

[siegementality]

Not so far but he needs a summer transfer window to properly build his own team and a pre-season to implement it.

 

 

Do you ever get the feeling we're going 'round in circles here?

More roundabouts than Neilson getting to his work!

[Buffalo Bill]

More roundabouts than Neilson getting to his work!

 

 

Indeed! 

 

 

He must love a roundabout though, having moved to Milton Keynes from Cumbernauld.

[Buffalo Bill]

As others have said I hope you are right in your assessment and over 50 years there have been players we thought were crap who came good (although quite often they remained crap  )

 

 

This is a interesting point. I remember Stephen Pressley having a poor start to his Hearts career. Paul Hartley too to a lesser extent.

 

I also mentioned folk grumbling about Paulo Sergio during 2011/12 when we were hovering around in 5th place. My thoughts then were 'how can we judge this guy when he hasn't even signed one player of his own?' But that didn't seem to matter to some folk who were saying he was a poor manager because we lost to Motherwell or something. We'll never know how good he could've been.

 

He did, in the end, get to sign one player, and only then on a short term deal. But it seemed to do the trick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[redm]

Wrong for the 9 millionth time. Neilson left of his own volition.

Hmm. Some fans went out of their way to try and put pressure on him and humiliate him to the extent they hired a plane to fly over the stadium basically telling him to GTF. An actual plane. Just for him. Not to mention the ridiculous grubby bed sheet 'installations' that popped up at various places over time.

 

I don't care what anyone says, that's going to make you feel very very unwelcome. Doesn't matter how tough you are. These fans undoubtedly played their part in adding to the list of reasons why he'd prefer to be elsewhere. I don't think there's any reasonable way to assume otherwise.

[Hearts007]

redm, on 14 May 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Hmm. Some fans went out of their way to try and put pressure on him and humiliate him to the extent they hired a plane to fly over the stadium basically telling him to GTF. An actual plane. Just for him. Not to mention the ridiculous grubby bed sheet 'installations' that popped up at various places over time.

 

I don't care what anyone says, that's going to make you feel very very unwelcome. Doesn't matter how tough you are. These fans undoubtedly played their part in adding to the list of reasons why he'd prefer to be elsewhere. I don't think there's any reasonable way to assume otherwise.

Agreed

[Hearts007]

Hmm. Some fans went out of their way to try and put pressure on him and humiliate him to the extent they hired a plane to fly over the stadium basically telling him to GTF. An actual plane. Just for him. Not to mention the ridiculous grubby bed sheet 'installations' that popped up at various places over time.

 

I don't care what anyone says, that's going to make you feel very very unwelcome. Doesn't matter how tough you are. These fans undoubtedly played their part in adding to the list of reasons why he'd prefer to be elsewhere. I don't think there's any reasonable way to assume otherwise.

But certain people have been and remain adamant for the 9 millionth time that it didn't.I take it these people Know Neilson personally

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

Someone who knows Neilson basically confirmed of twitter Neilson was pissed off.

 

Still, we have Ian Cathro players like him so that's good.

[Hearts007]

Someone who knows Neilson basically confirmed of twitter Neilson was pissed off.

 

Still, we have Ian Cathro players like him so that's good.

pissed off with the off field antics against him or Hearts in general?

[siegementality]

Hmm. Some fans went out of their way to try and put pressure on him and humiliate him to the extent they hired a plane to fly over the stadium basically telling him to GTF. An actual plane. Just for him. Not to mention the ridiculous grubby bed sheet 'installations' that popped up at various places over time.

I don't care what anyone says, that's going to make you feel very very unwelcome. Doesn't matter how tough you are. These fans undoubtedly played their part in adding to the list of reasons why he'd prefer to be elsewhere. I don't think there's any reasonable way to assume otherwise.

What utter nonsense. Neilson as a player was limited at best. Throughout his career he would have heard and read exactly what fans though of him. He will have heard and read the same in his time as Head Coach at Hearts. He will also hear and read the same things in his time at MK Dons. That's football. If he decides to run away every time people give him a hard time I'd suggest he gets a new gig as Mo Farra's training partner.

 

Arsene Wenger has had to put up with worse at Arsenal. Neilson left because he chose to. Get over it.

[siegementality]

Someone who knows Neilson basically confirmed of twitter Neilson was pissed off.

Still, we have Ian Cathro players like him so that's good.

You are all over the place. Maybe time you turned it in.

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

pissed off with the off field antics against him or Hearts in general?

Happy with most things strangely enough! Just hate seeing everyone accept failure with Cathro.

 

And fans that choose entertainment over results.

[Hearts007]

OFhater, on 15 May 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Happy with most things strangely enough! Just hate seeing everyone accept failure with Cathro.

 

And fans that choose entertainment over results.

Think you misunderstood me mate , I meant the person on Twitter that knew Robbie did they mean Robbie was pissed of with Hearts or was he pissed off with the plane hirers?

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

Think you misunderstood me mate , I meant the person on Twitter that knew Robbie did they mean Robbie was pissed of with Hearts or was he pissed off with the plane hirers?

Ah sorry. Fans.

 

It was Mark Burchall. He replied to a comment with "No wonder Neilson left with the treatment he received. It would be hard to ignore."

[siegementality]

Ah sorry. Fans.

It was Mark Burchall. He replied to a comment with "No wonder Neilson left with the treatment he received. It would be hard to ignore."

So Burchill gave an opinion, nothing more. Unluckiy for you and Burchill that Neilson didn't validate either of your opinions cos "you don't get to the premier league from Hearts".

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/robbie-neilson-sir-alex-told-me-to-leave-but-i-won-t-raid-hearts-1-4308802

[Hearts007]

OFhater, on 15 May 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

Ah sorry. Fans.

 

It was Mark Burchall. He replied to a comment with "No wonder Neilson left with the treatment he received. It would be hard to ignore."

ok cheers

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Hmm. Some fans went out of their way to try and put pressure on him and humiliate him to the extent they hired a plane to fly over the stadium basically telling him to GTF. An actual plane. Just for him. Not to mention the ridiculous grubby bed sheet 'installations' that popped up at various places over time.

 

I don't care what anyone says, that's going to make you feel very very unwelcome. Doesn't matter how tough you are. These fans undoubtedly played their part in adding to the list of reasons why he'd prefer to be elsewhere. I don't think there's any reasonable way to assume otherwise.

As I said at the time, if a few headbangers acting like that influences his future, he won't last long in management.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

But certain people have been and remain adamant for the 9 millionth time that it didn't.I take it these people Know Neilson personally

Stop being obtuse! Mr H1B5 (his comfort blanket response) was aiming that at the critics on here, not the arseholes who hired the plane.

[Jambo Scott]

This imposter should not have been allowed in in the 1st place.
Joke of an appointment.  Relegation battle looms next year if he remains.

 

[aussieh]

Wrong for the 9 millionth time. Neilson left of his own volition.

There's a difference between finding a new job because you have to and finding a new job because you want to.

[redjambo]

Hmm. Some fans went out of their way to try and put pressure on him and humiliate him to the extent they hired a plane to fly over the stadium basically telling him to GTF. An actual plane. Just for him. Not to mention the ridiculous grubby bed sheet 'installations' that popped up at various places over time.

 

I don't care what anyone says, that's going to make you feel very very unwelcome. Doesn't matter how tough you are. These fans undoubtedly played their part in adding to the list of reasons why he'd prefer to be elsewhere. I don't think there's any reasonable way to assume otherwise.

 

Exactly. When we make decisions, there are usually a whole load of factors that influence those decisions. Contrary to those on here who take a black and white view, Robbie did not leave solely because of negativity directed towards him from a section of the support, but neither was that not a factor at all. That negativity will however have played a role in his final decision to up sticks for pastures new, no doubt about it. Which is a shame, because he was still very much in the learning phase here at Hearts.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

There's a difference between finding a new job because you have to and finding a new job because you want to.

Which is exactly what I said. He wanted to go.

[Buffalo Bill]

Just hate seeing everyone accept failure with Cathro.

 

And fans that choose entertainment over results.

 

 

I support Cathro but I don't accept failure at all. I want Hearts to win every game and become very successful.

 

I've written before on here about how I think there's a 'next level' at Hearts; near 20,000 crowds, regular European campaigns, more trophy success and to have an outside, but attainable chance of winning the title (maybe once Brendan ****s off to Arsenal).

 

I think that's pretty ambitious but not completely unrealistic. Tell me which part of that sounds like accepting failure?

 

The difference between us is that you demand instant success now with this season's crappy squad. I see the long game. It's not going to happen right now. It's might not happen next season.

 

But there will be improvements, of that I'm absolutely sure. That's what I want next season: improvement, plus a new, winning, fighting attitude...and a bit more entertainment. But winning, yes.  

[Hearts007]

Geoff Kilpatrick, on 15 May 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

Stop being obtuse! Mr H1B5 (his comfort blanket response) was aiming that at the critics on here, not the arseholes who hired the plane.

You calling me a  Hobo? away you go boy

[Buffalo Bill]

My only sadness with Robbie is that he couldn't sustain the 'get ripped in about them' attitude of the early part of his tenure. I appreciate the opposition changed through time, but so did our mind-set. He became more cautious, and the team stopped playing well, even though we usually had enough to get a result against the lesser teams.

 

I don't get why he did that. His early 2014/15 Hearts side were fantastic to watch. He should've kept us on that path.

 

My gut feeling when he left was one of ambivalence.

[Debut 4]

If he can't get the best / maximum from this team what makes you think he will be able to achieve that with new players..

 

A Head coach job is to get the most from the assets he has no?

agree....next season is a big test for him.

 

Some people are being really naive thinking we just need to improve the playing staff and everything else will fall into place.

 

If anything , and going by reports we're after stronger characters, it could be tougher for IC if seasoned pros come in and think he's too weak to lead.

 

You'll only get by for so long with strong characters leading by example. Even they expect to be lead.

[Bazzas right boot]

I support Cathro but I don't accept failure at all. I want Hearts to win every game and become very successful.

 

I've written before on here about how I think there's a 'next level' at Hearts; near 20,000 crowds, regular European campaigns, more trophy success and to have an outside, but attainable chance of winning the title (maybe once Brendan ****s off to Arsenal).

 

I think that's pretty ambitious but not completely unrealistic. Tell me which part of that sounds like accepting failure?

 

The difference between us is that you demand instant success now with this season's crappy squad. I see the long game. It's not going to happen right now. It's might not happen next season.

 

But there will be improvements, of that I'm absolutely sure. That's what I want next season: improvement, plus a new, winning, fighting attitude...and a bit more entertainment. But winning, yes.

I think this way, feynoord, athletico, even Arsenal are examples.

 

Germany and France have had Thier share of teams as well that have broken the mould.

 

 

It is harder now and in Scotland particularly as UCL money makes a massive difference.

 

Ranger's will struggle to catch Celtic and as Aberdeen have proven breaking past second is difficult.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

You calling me a  Hobo? away you go boy

I'm talking about your friend from North Berwick who you quoted.

[Boab]

I'm beginning to come round to the way of thinking that, regardless of someone's talents...or lack of.....sometimes a job just doesn't fit.

 

The guy got the gig for a reason, maybe it just doesn't fit ?

 

We'll see next season.