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doctor jambo

As Boris will confirm

the problem with socialism is that it does not fully buy into Marxism

socialism fails to address what to do with those who don't graft and try, who wont ( as opposed to cannot) contribute

the world has changed- there is little need now for unskilled labour

and with society ( the tax payer- NOT the government who merely spend the tax money) supporting increasing numbers of economically inactive elderly,

it cannot support the economically inactive young too without increasing burden on those working ( in all pay brackets)

so how do you square the circle?

 tax take is not an issue- it is higher than it has ever been- and rising

working people with kids are being squeezed to hell already

so who do you squeeze now?

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Space Mackerel
9 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

As Boris will confirm

the problem with socialism is that it does not fully buy into Marxism

socialism fails to address what to do with those who don't graft and try, who wont ( as opposed to cannot) contribute

the world has changed- there is little need now for unskilled labour

and with society ( the tax payer- NOT the government who merely spend the tax money) supporting increasing numbers of economically inactive elderly,

it cannot support the economically inactive young too without increasing burden on those working ( in all pay brackets)

so how do you square the circle?

 tax take is not an issue- it is higher than it has ever been- and rising

working people with kids are being squeezed to hell already

so who do you squeeze now?

 

Ever thought about squeezing the tax dodgers and Tory donors who have multiple offshore accounts? 

 

Amber Rudd the Home Secretary is a good start. You should see what her brother is involved with too. 

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shaun.lawson
12 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Amber Rudd the Home Secretary is a good start. You should see what her brother is involved with too. 

 

Here's the double offshore account owning Home Secretary's idea of 'democracy', displayed at a hustings in her constituency during the general election campaign. Number of reports in the mainstream media about this? Zero.

 

 

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They are evil. They are racist. The only reason they are squirming now is because they have been caught.

 

Stop blaming the older generation for "stealing" the whole pot leaving nothing for the younger generation. It wasn't them, it was, and is, the UK Govt that have been, and are continuing, to steal that pot.

 

Somebody mentioned earlier in the thread that 100,000 UK citizens have died as a direct result of their policies. Under current UK Govt. terms of engagement we would be more than justified in "rounding them up, putting them in a field and bombing the B******s" as they are the biggest threat to life in the UK at this present time.

 

Tactical voting? Hmm.

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shaun.lawson
1 hour ago, Sraman said:

Stop blaming the older generation for "stealing" the whole pot leaving nothing for the younger generation. It wasn't them, it was, and is, the UK Govt that have been, and are continuing, to steal that pot.

 

Hmm. See the graphic I posted in my response to Francis here:

 

And see this too.

 

0*2Z8sfC3tX9wUOF5q.

 

Exactly how do you think this happened? Exactly how do you think Thatcherism in its various guises has been constantly voted in for 40 years? And exactly why do you think an enormous majority of over-65s vote Tory; while a similarly enormous majority of under-40s do not?

Edited by shaun.lawson
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28 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Hmm. See the graphic I posted in my response to Francis here:

 

And see this too.

 

0*2Z8sfC3tX9wUOF5q.

 

Exactly how do you think this happened? Exactly how do you think Thatcherism in its various guises has been constantly voted in for 40 years? And exactly why do you think an enormous majority of over-65s vote Tory; while a similarly enormous majority of under-40s do not?

 

I'll tackle those questions in one answer, even though we should both be sleeping by now..........

 


Thatcher, is the short answer. The one thing that she did that created most of this was sell off the council houses to tenants who had previously been happy enough to rent. Of course most tenants jumped at the chance to get on the property ladder for a bargain, too good to be true, price. Now, even though they were cheap, most people still had to take out a 15-25 year mortgage to cover the cost. These council houses were now lost as a revenue stream for councils, which is a travesty in itself but the crux is that the people who bought them were now tied to mortgages. When you have a mortgage it's almost impossible to get by without working and as she had previously decimated most traditional industries, if you were lucky enough to have a job, you felt you had to toe the company line to ensure you stayed in employment. You become scared of losing your job as you lose your house and there are no council houses left to go back into so striking etc, is out of the question. The Unions were Maggie's biggest bug bear and this was all part of her plan to ensure that the working classes couldn't rock the boat due to the fear of losing everything whereas before, if they lost their job, they would get their rent adjusted or help to pay it for them until they found other work then their rent would go back to normal with no arrears to take care of. It took a little while and a lot of head scratching for these folks to realise that when something broke you had to pay to repair it rather than calling the council out to do it for you as well as continue to pay your mortgage with very little assistance if you lost your job, which was a real possibility at the time due to the fore mentioned decimation of traditional industries. 

 

People would take any job just to keep their heads above water without complaint and after a while began to believe that they were a better class of person as they were a property owner. They would keep an eye on the house prices in their area to "see how much they had made" on their investment, a bit like HBoS employees involved in the company share scheme looking at the share prices, bragging how much they were worth and how they would sell up when their shares hit £15 and retire at 35. We all know now that that didn't go too well for them but share save schemes do the exact same thing to people as owning a property does. It makes you feel as though you have a vested interest in the company so you work harder to try to ensure the share price is kept at a premium as you measure your worth against your assets when all you are really doing is paying the company a fee to work for them.

 

Now, as people looked at the value of their property rising they gained that false sense of their worth increasing. They were using new words and phrases. Words and phrases that weren't traditionally used by the working classes but were more associated with the Tories. They began to believe they were better than those around them who hadn't taken up the offer. That's also when the Labour Party started to lurch to the right to try to win votes back from these people, not all of them jumped ship to the tories, but enough did to cause Labour to shit the bed and start dropping their principles in the chase for all important votes to get back into power. Again, we all now know that that didn't work out too well for them either as they continued to drop their principles until we ended up with Blair and Brown. Brown sold off all the gold reserves at rock bottom prices and as a result our economy is largely based on property. We have a lack of housing in this country and a glut of industrial/retail/office space. The lack of housing keeps the prices artificially inflated and, as everybody knows, most Industrial/retail/office space is owned by the large investment companies such as Standard Life, Scottish Widows, etc who endeavour to keep their investment values moving in the upwards direction and the Govt. is only too happy to assist with this. With property so heavily involved in the economies worth it has to keep increasing in value at ridiculous rates or we tank as a country. It's all a house of cards that could come tumbling down at any minute and I suspect that is why the Tories want everything coming back from the EU to go to Westminster so that they can trade it all back again for the right to keep that financial ticket so that they can carry on as before artificially controlling the economy to the detriment of the people.

 

There you go. It ended up being a bit longer than I expected, you could say I've done a bit of a Lawson except I haven't linked to anything, I haven't looked anything up. All of this is my own thoughts based on personal experience, yep I worked for HBoS for a while and it kind of disgusted me to be honest, I have also worked in property for quite a few years which also really disgusted me. The one good thing about the job I did in HBoS was getting to meet retired Bank Managers who were equally as, if not more, disgusted at the way they did business at the time and could see the way things were heading.

 

One last thing before I fall asleep at my keyboard. The only youngsters I know with an iPhone are on the rob. Cheap Huawei's all round, just like myself. The Chinese have all my call logs and text data, the Tories have sold all my browsing data to the Russians so that they can interfere in Scottish elections for them.

 

As I say, don't blame the older generation. It's not their fault. It's the government. You know exactly how it works, divide and rule then lay the blame at anyone's door except their's.

 

 

 

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deesidejambo
6 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

Tactical voting? Hmm.

You can hmm all you want but it is true.  Its blindingly obvious thousands of people voted Tory in Scotland last GE because of the Indy issue, not because of Tory policies per se. 

 

Otherwise how can you explain their vote increase in Scotland as compared to rUK?

 

You have Sturgeon to thank for that and Davidson jumped on it.

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deesidejambo
3 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

I'll tackle those questions in one answer, even though we should both be sleeping by now..........

 


Thatcher, is the short answer. The one thing that she did that created most of this was sell off the council houses to tenants who had previously been happy enough to rent. Of course most tenants jumped at the chance to get on the property ladder for a bargain, too good to be true, price. Now, even though they were cheap, most people still had to take out a 15-25 year mortgage to cover the cost. These council houses were now lost as a revenue stream for councils, which is a travesty in itself but the crux is that the people who bought them were now tied to mortgages. When you have a mortgage it's almost impossible to get by without working and as she had previously decimated most traditional industries, if you were lucky enough to have a job, you felt you had to toe the company line to ensure you stayed in employment. You become scared of losing your job as you lose your house and there are no council houses left to go back into so striking etc, is out of the question. The Unions were Maggie's biggest bug bear and this was all part of her plan to ensure that the working classes couldn't rock the boat due to the fear of losing everything whereas before, if they lost their job, they would get their rent adjusted or help to pay it for them until they found other work then their rent would go back to normal with no arrears to take care of. It took a little while and a lot of head scratching for these folks to realise that when something broke you had to pay to repair it rather than calling the council out to do it for you as well as continue to pay your mortgage with very little assistance if you lost your job, which was a real possibility at the time due to the fore mentioned decimation of traditional industries. 

 

People would take any job just to keep their heads above water without complaint and after a while began to believe that they were a better class of person as they were a property owner. They would keep an eye on the house prices in their area to "see how much they had made" on their investment, a bit like HBoS employees involved in the company share scheme looking at the share prices, bragging how much they were worth and how they would sell up when their shares hit £15 and retire at 35. We all know now that that didn't go too well for them but share save schemes do the exact same thing to people as owning a property does. It makes you feel as though you have a vested interest in the company so you work harder to try to ensure the share price is kept at a premium as you measure your worth against your assets when all you are really doing is paying the company a fee to work for them.

 

Now, as people looked at the value of their property rising they gained that false sense of their worth increasing. They were using new words and phrases. Words and phrases that weren't traditionally used by the working classes but were more associated with the Tories. They began to believe they were better than those around them who hadn't taken up the offer. That's also when the Labour Party started to lurch to the right to try to win votes back from these people, not all of them jumped ship to the tories, but enough did to cause Labour to shit the bed and start dropping their principles in the chase for all important votes to get back into power. Again, we all now know that that didn't work out too well for them either as they continued to drop their principles until we ended up with Blair and Brown. Brown sold off all the gold reserves at rock bottom prices and as a result our economy is largely based on property. We have a lack of housing in this country and a glut of industrial/retail/office space. The lack of housing keeps the prices artificially inflated and, as everybody knows, most Industrial/retail/office space is owned by the large investment companies such as Standard Life, Scottish Widows, etc who endeavour to keep their investment values moving in the upwards direction and the Govt. is only too happy to assist with this. With property so heavily involved in the economies worth it has to keep increasing in value at ridiculous rates or we tank as a country. It's all a house of cards that could come tumbling down at any minute and I suspect that is why the Tories want everything coming back from the EU to go to Westminster so that they can trade it all back again for the right to keep that financial ticket so that they can carry on as before artificially controlling the economy to the detriment of the people.

 

There you go. It ended up being a bit longer than I expected, you could say I've done a bit of a Lawson except I haven't linked to anything, I haven't looked anything up. All of this is my own thoughts based on personal experience, yep I worked for HBoS for a while and it kind of disgusted me to be honest, I have also worked in property for quite a few years which also really disgusted me. The one good thing about the job I did in HBoS was getting to meet retired Bank Managers who were equally as, if not more, disgusted at the way they did business at the time and could see the way things were heading.

 

One last thing before I fall asleep at my keyboard. The only youngsters I know with an iPhone are on the rob. Cheap Huawei's all round, just like myself. The Chinese have all my call logs and text data, the Tories have sold all my browsing data to the Russians so that they can interfere in Scottish elections for them.

 

As I say, don't blame the older generation. It's not their fault. It's the government. You know exactly how it works, divide and rule then lay the blame at anyone's door except their's.

 

 

 

Ok you , Shaun, and Spacey do a lot of greetin on this thread, but I dont see you proposing solutions.

 

So what would you do?   

 

I,ll start- 

 

Increase the higher tax rate to 45% for anyone over 80k

 

Massively increase Inheritance tax for all estates over £100,000 to stop the wealth of the rich old people just going to their kids.

 

Increase the starting tax threshold to whatever it needs to be to balance the tax revenue with the above, thereby shifting tax burden away from poor towards those who can afford it.

 

reduce the Pension LTA to £500k

 

reduce the annual tax free pension limit to 10k to stop the tax avoidance which is making older people richer.

 

allow all those in Calais with proven families in the U.K. to enter.

 

this to me is fair.

 

So over to you chaps -  what would you do?

Edited by deesidejambo
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deesidejambo
6 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Hmm. See the graphic I posted in my response to Francis here:

 

And see this too.

 

0*2Z8sfC3tX9wUOF5q.

 

Exactly how do you think this happened? Exactly how do you think Thatcherism in its various guises has been constantly voted in for 40 years? And exactly why do you think an enormous majority of over-65s vote Tory; while a similarly enormous majority of under-40s do not?

Old people vote Tory not because they are old, but because they are rich.

 

As you get older you get more money, you move into the higher tax brackets and you end up with big pensions,

 

these people will vote Tory for selfish reasons.

 

its not the age that drives the voting _ it’s the wealth.

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45 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

You can hmm all you want but it is true.  Its blindingly obvious thousands of people voted Tory in Scotland last GE because of the Indy issue, not because of Tory policies per se. 

 

Otherwise how can you explain their vote increase in Scotland as compared to rUK?

 

You have Sturgeon to thank for that and Davidson jumped on it.

The GE wasn't a vote on Indy. 

 

You were conned by the Tories to think it was, and you fell for it. You have helped elect this government by voting for it.

 

If you are so afraid of another Indy ref is it because you feel that yes will win?  

Edited by Boris
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Thunderstruck
58 minutes ago, Boris said:

The GE wasn't a vote on Indy. 

 

You were conned by the Tories to think it was, and you fell for it. You have helped elect this government by voting for it.

 

If you are so afraid of another Indy ref is it because you feel that yes will win?  

 

Not quite right. Sturgeon and the SNP make every vote a vote or a proxy for a vote on independence. 

 

They teed it up and Ruth Davidson gleefully smacked it into the bleachers. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Boris said:

The GE wasn't a vote on Indy. 

 

You were conned by the Tories to think it was, and you fell for it. You have helped elect this government by voting for it.

 

If you are so afraid of another Indy ref is it because you feel that yes will win?  

 

This is the truth.    Scottish people voted in 13 Tory MPs,  largely in an irrelevant opposition to the idea of a second referendum,   most of who insisted would be won by the pro-union side in any case.

 

I'm not sure how these people can live with that.     

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41 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Not quite right. Sturgeon and the SNP make every vote a vote or a proxy for a vote on independence. 

 

They teed it up and Ruth Davidson gleefully smacked it into the bleachers. 

 

 

You see, I don't think they do. In as much as deep down the Tories know they are still a busted flush up here. 

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deesidejambo
20 minutes ago, Boris said:

You see, I don't think they do. In as much as deep down the Tories know they are still a busted flush up here. 

So how come the Tories did well in Scotland but not in England?

 

I think you know i voted Labour in the previous GE.   Didn’t work out for me!  Anne Begg got booted hence my move to whatever party was best against the SNP.  Worked that time, although I i said before the current incumbent is weak.

 

So I voted Tory as a proxy vote against Indy.  As did many others.

 

Next time?  I will vote Labour as my single issue is now taxation balancing.  But if Indy2 is on the cards then i will vote for whatever party has the best chance of booting it.

 

Mai Boris - what would you do? Give me your manifesto.  I may vote for you.

 

Same question to the others.

 

Its easy to squeal about bout how evil the Tories are but not so easy to propose solutions.   Everybody is getting richer and as such they will move to voting Tory once they get their first Range Rover.

 

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31 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

Give me your manifesto.  I may vote for you.

 

Same question to the others.

 

 

I wouldn’t call it a manefesto. However, here are a few things I would look to do. 

 

Unlike others i dont think the system is broke and think there is a lot of hyperbole around many’s posting on this thread.

 

I think one one of the major issues is our welfare system was set up for a very different time. The population was significantly less and life expectancy was a lot less. Welfare system in its current state probably needs to change. 

 

I would means test, state pension and I would break the triple lock. I think it’s an outdated concept to expect the government to look after you in your old age. 

 

I would legalise marijuna and tax it, with the tax take going into NHS. I would probably also decriminalise drugs. 

 

i would encourage a housebuilding programme through a combination of tact’s. New town constructions and opening up existing green and brown sites. 

 

I would scrap council tax and replace with a local income tax. 

 

I would change the voting system to a PR based one.

 

With regards to personal taxation levels. I would really need to see analysis on which benefits the tax take best. However, I wouldn’t envisage any significant changes.

 

I would work closely with other countries to develop tax rules, which stop large organisations being able to avoid taxation as a result of globalisation. 

 

I’d probably like to lower some tax such as VAT. I think this could probably achieved with a bit of rebalancing some things. 

 

 

 

 

 

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deesidejambo
31 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I wouldn’t call it a manefesto. However, here are a few things I would look to do. 

 

Unlike others i dont think the system is broke and think there is a lot of hyperbole around many’s posting on this thread.

 

I think one one of the major issues is our welfare system was set up for a very different time. The population was significantly less and life expectancy was a lot less. Welfare system in its current state probably needs to change. 

 

I would means test, state pension and I would break the triple lock. I think it’s an outdated concept to expect the government to look after you in your old age. 

 

I would legalise marijuna and tax it, with the tax take going into NHS. I would probably also decriminalise drugs. 

 

i would encourage a housebuilding programme through a combination of tact’s. New town constructions and opening up existing green and brown sites. 

 

I would scrap council tax and replace with a local income tax. 

 

I would change the voting system to a PR based one.

 

With regards to personal taxation levels. I would really need to see analysis on which benefits the tax take best. However, I wouldn’t envisage any significant changes.

 

I would work closely with other countries to develop tax rules, which stop large organisations being able to avoid taxation as a result of globalisation. 

 

I’d probably like to lower some tax such as VAT. I think this could probably achieved with a bit of rebalancing some things. 

 

 

 

 

 

Nae bad.    Would get my vote depending on what others come up with.  If they propose anything.

 

Not keen on leaving personal tax unchanged though.    I think there is plenty spare cash sloshing about the rich folk that they wouldn’t mind paying a bit more.   But nobody on this ste agrees! If 

 

What would you do about Calais?

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Space Mackerel
13 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Here's the double offshore account owning Home Secretary's idea of 'democracy', displayed at a hustings in her constituency during the general election campaign. Number of reports in the mainstream media about this? Zero.

 

 

 

Yep, he goes by the name of Mr Ethical on Twitter, he’s been exposing HSBC fraud and drug cartel money laundering for ages. 

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Space Mackerel
4 hours ago, deesidejambo said:

Ok you , Shaun, and Spacey do a lot of greetin on this thread, but I dont see you proposing solutions.

 

So what would you do?   

 

I,ll start- 

 

Increase the higher tax rate to 45% for anyone over 80k

 

Massively increase Inheritance tax for all estates over £100,000 to stop the wealth of the rich old people just going to their kids.

 

Increase the starting tax threshold to whatever it needs to be to balance the tax revenue with the above, thereby shifting tax burden away from poor towards those who can afford it.

 

reduce the Pension LTA to £500k

 

reduce the annual tax free pension limit to 10k to stop the tax avoidance which is making older people richer.

 

allow all those in Calais with proven families in the U.K. to enter.

 

this to me is fair.

 

So over to you chaps -  what would you do?

 

Independent Scotland then I’ll worry about that stuff after. 

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deesidejambo
23 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Independent Scotland then I’ll worry about that stuff after. 

Thought so.    No vote from me.

 

Anyone else?    Plenty more cut and pastes but no counter proposals.

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31 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

Nae bad.    Would get my vote depending on what others come up with.  If they propose anything.

 

Not keen on leaving personal tax unchanged though.    I think there is plenty spare cash sloshing about the rich folk that they wouldn’t mind paying a bit more.   But nobody on this ste agrees! If 

 

What would you do about Calais?

 

To be honest I think it’s a bit of a false narrative around the ‘rich’ in relation to personal taxation. From memory something like the top 1% are responsible circa 25% of the income tax take. With the top 10% being responsible for another chunk. 

 

I think the constant insinuation that rich people don’t pay tax is not founded in reality. Personal income tax is very hard to avoid for obvious reasons. Most tax avoidance (which is within the rules) happens around things other direct income tax. Generally capital gains area. 

 

You continue to increase the the rate of personal taxation to unreasonable levels, people would look at ways to avoid as it will be financially beneficial to do so. 

 

i think fundamentally its wrong govt could take over 50% of what you earn. I think that’s very repressive. 

 

That’s why I’d look at what research suggest will maximise it. It’s not about a policy to make other feel better it’s about maximising the tax take. 

 

My focus would be on working with other countries to close loop holes etc. That to me would that would result in benefit, I suspect significantly changing personal tax bandings is more likely to have a negative effect. 

 

I genuinely don’t know what I would do around Calais. 

 

 

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deesidejambo
6 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

To be honest I think it’s a bit of a false narrative around the ‘rich’ in relation to personal taxation. From memory something like the top 1% are responsible circa 25% of the income tax take. With the top 10% being responsible for another chunk. 

 

I think the constant insinuation that rich people don’t pay tax is not founded in reality. Personal income tax is very hard to avoid for obvious reasons. Most tax avoidance (which is within the rules) happens around things other direct income tax. Generally capital gains area. 

 

You continue to increase the the rate of personal taxation to unreasonable levels, people would look at ways to avoid as it will be financially beneficial to do so. 

 

i think fundamentally its wrong govt could take over 50% of what you earn. I think that’s very repressive. 

 

That’s why I’d look at what research suggest will maximise it. It’s not about a policy to make other feel better it’s about maximising the tax take. 

 

My focus would be on working with other countries to close loop holes etc. That to me would that would result in benefit, I suspect significantly changing personal tax bandings is more likely to have a negative effect. 

 

I genuinely don’t know what I would do around Calais. 

 

 

I agree that if you overdo tax then it’s maybe counterproductive.

 

But over the years I think the headroom before this happens has increased so imo there is space to do this.

 

In other words the band in which we can work is wide enough and currently we are at the low end of the band.

 

Especially as I think it’s the case that 40% of the working population is now in the higher salary band.

 

The rich are simply getting richer.   The poor are also getting “richer” but at a far lower rate so the gap is becoming too wide.

 

 

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5 hours ago, deesidejambo said:

 

 

Massively increase Inheritance tax for all estates over £100,000 to stop the wealth of the rich old people just going to their kids.

 

 

 

I think this another policy to make people feel better than deriving any benefit.

 

Inheritence tax is by far and away the easiest tax to avoid. A bit of careful planning will minimise anyone’s liability. 

 

£100,000 estate is nothing. Any homeowner would more than likely fall into this bracket. Your proposed change doesn’t hinder people passing 10’s of millions across it hinders the average person who has worked all days and managed to buy a house.

 

i also think people should be allowed to pass wealth on. You take things like that away, your really stifle drive for improvement/entrepreneurship. Whilst, it’s a natural reaction to want to benefit your children and do the best for them. Again I find the suggestion that the government should be able to come in at your death and take all you have as pretty regressive policy.

 

I’d actually scrap inheritance tax it’s a ineffective tax imo. 

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deesidejambo
2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I think this another policy to make people feel better than deriving any benefit.

 

Inheritence tax is by far and away the easiest tax to avoid. A bit of careful planning will minimise anyone’s liability. 

 

£100,000 estate is nothing. Any homeowner would more than likely fall into this bracket. Your proposed change doesn’t hinder people passing 10’s of millions across it hinders the average person who has worked all days and managed to buy a house.

 

i also think people should be allowed to pass wealth on. You take things like that away, your really stifle drive for improvement/entrepreneurship. Whilst, it’s a natural reaction to want to benefit your children and do the best for them. Again I find the suggestion that the government should be able to come in at your death and take all you have as pretty regressive policy.

 

I’d actually scrap inheritance tax it’s a ineffective tax imo. 

That’s you lost my vote!   Inheritance tax is what I’d call a necessary evil.

 

itsneeded because of large personal wealth being generated then just being passed to kids.   Then they also become rich without even needing to work for it.

 

that is my definition of elite classes- rich without working for it.   And it needs to be reigned-in.

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

I agree that if you overdo tax then it’s maybe counterproductive.

 

But over the years I think the headroom before this happens has increased so imo there is space to do this.

 

In other words the band in which we can work is wide enough and currently we are at the low end of the band.

 

Especially as I think it’s the case that 40% of the working population is now in the higher salary band.

 

The rich are simply getting richer.   The poor are also getting “richer” but at a far lower rate so the gap is becoming too wide.

 

 

I’m not sure the headroom argument works for me. As that doesn’t change people’s reaction to tax changes. It’s the level of change making it financially rewarding.

 

I think the snp May have even confirmed this during research. I think at one time flag ship policy was we’ll raise tax on rich. Then when given the power and crunched the numbers found it was actually counterproductive to raise.

 

i would maybe consider more bandings. However, I don’t think personal tax is the silver bullet most think it is.

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5 hours ago, deesidejambo said:

Ok you , Shaun, and Spacey do a lot of greetin on this thread, but I dont see you proposing solutions.

 

So what would you do?   

 

I,ll start- 

 

Increase the higher tax rate to 45% for anyone over 80k

 

Massively increase Inheritance tax for all estates over £100,000 to stop the wealth of the rich old people just going to their kids.

 

Increase the starting tax threshold to whatever it needs to be to balance the tax revenue with the above, thereby shifting tax burden away from poor towards those who can afford it.

 

reduce the Pension LTA to £500k

 

reduce the annual tax free pension limit to 10k to stop the tax avoidance which is making older people richer.

 

allow all those in Calais with proven families in the U.K. to enter.

 

this to me is fair.

 

So over to you chaps -  what would you do?

 

 

Give it up chump.

 

What would I do? "round them up, put them in a field and bomb the B******s"

 

We'd have plenty room for decent folks to come in and take their place.

 

Believe me, the world would be a much a better place.

 

Cash seems to be your king, %age this %age that. My dad was the same but he stuck with the Liberals as he still had some principles. You, on the other hand, have none.

 

The Tories in Scotland make everything about Independence not Nicola Sturgeon. The Labour Party in Scotland make everything about Independence, not Nicola Sturgeon.

 

"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

That’s you lost my vote!   Inheritance tax is what I’d call a necessary evil.

 

itsneeded because of large personal wealth being generated then just being passed to kids.   Then they also become rich without even needing to work for it.

 

that is my definition of elite classes- rich without working for it.   And it needs to be reigned-in.

 

 

 

 

Large personal wealth is not be passed this way though. If you want to stop that it’s not via inheritence tax. A wealth tax or something would be much more successful.

 

Your definition of elite class is very different to mine if you think £100k in assets at your death make you elite. 

 

 

 

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deesidejambo
6 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Give it up chump.

 

What would I do? "round them up, put them in a field and bomb the B******s"

 

We'd have plenty room for decent folks to come in and take their place.

 

Believe me, the world would be a much a better place.

 

Cash seems to be your king, %age this %age that. My dad was the same but he stuck with the Liberals as he still had some principles. You, on the other hand, have none.

 

The Tories in Scotland make everything about Independence not Nicola Sturgeon. The Labour Party in Scotland make everything about Independence, not Nicola Sturgeon.

 

"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"

 

 

 

So you have no idea what you would do.

 

That is interesting as you are good at greetin on about the evil Tories but have no personal ideas what you would do to make society better.

 

Classic sit on the sidelines and moan about the man.  And your statement that I have no principles is moronic.  I do have plenty but just not the same as yours.     Classic idiot statement that people who disagree with you somehow have no principles.

 

Lets try a single issue to see if you have any insights.    The evil Tories are stopping migrants at Calais.  Would you let them in?

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Just now, deesidejambo said:

So you have no idea what you would do.

 

That is interesting as you are good at greetin on about the evil Tories but have no personal ideas what you would do to make society better.

 

Classic sit on the sidelines and moan about the man.

 

Lets try a single issue to see if you have any insights.    The evil Tories are stopping migrants at Calais.  Would you let them in?

 

 

I told you what I would do. I wasn't joking. Society would improve tenfold overnight.

 

It's the Tory way after all.

 

 

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deesidejambo
3 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

I told you what I would do. I wasn't joking. Society would improve tenfold overnight.

 

It's the Tory way after all.

 

 

So you would just murder Tories to improve society?    Murder folk that you don’t agree with - that’s your view of society.   Russians will agree with you though.

 

and I see you dodged the Calais question.  Bomb them also?

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10 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

So you would just murder Tories to improve society?    Murder folk that you don’t agree with - that’s your view of society.   Russians will agree with you though.

 

 

Murder? No, no, no. Eliminate the biggest threat to British Citizens lives, oh yes. As I said it's the Tory way. "If you can't beat them join them."

 

Except this time it wouldn't be based on lies and half truths.

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On th point of old people having everything and younger generations having nothing. I think that’s a bit skewed picture.

 

It’s only natural older people have more, due to their life span. They have been around long enough that mortgages paid off, pension pots and earning at maximum levels and probably a bit of equity in property. 

 

To except someone younger in there 20-40’s to be at this levels when been about half the time so to speak. It’s pretty logical they will have more.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

On th point of old people having everything and younger generations having nothing. I think that’s a bit skewed picture.

 

It’s only natural older people have more, due to their life span. They have been around long enough that mortgages paid off, pension pots and earning at maximum levels and probably a bit of equity in property. 

 

To except someone younger in there 20-40’s to be at this levels when been about half the time so to speak. It’s pretty logical they will have more.

 

 

 

It's not old people. It's the Government.

 

Classic divide and rule.

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deesidejambo
1 minute ago, Sraman said:

 

It's not old people. It's the Government.

 

Classic divide and rule.

It’s both.   As the population ages there are more old people.  The more old people there are, the more Tory voters there are, but it’s not because they are old they switch, it’s because they have money.

 

and it’s money that trumps principles.

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1 minute ago, deesidejambo said:

It’s both.   As the population ages there are more old people.  The more old people there are, the more Tory voters there are, but it’s not because they are old they switch, it’s because they have money.

 

and it’s money that trumps principles.

 

No it's not.

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22 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

So tell me why people as they get older swap from Labour to Tory?

 

 

You become more conservative as you get older. There are a variety of reasons that but essentially you relate to a different period and the values of this period. Traditional values are usually represent  by conservative with a small c that are more about tradition. Plus less time on planet make you more risk adverse.

 

Ill be honest I’m amazed by lack of nuanced thinking around people’s voting choices. Voting is a pretty complex thing and requires to make a variety of assessment on wide ranging issue. It’s rarely down to a single issue.

 

However, people find it to easy to demonise others with a different opinion as opposed to engage in actual discussion and deal with facts. That’s pretty disappointing and maybe why we have so many poor politicians. It’s not about making things better for many but winning some faux battle imo.

 

 

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deesidejambo
3 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

You become more conservative as you get older. There are a variety of reasons that but essentially because you relate to a different period and the values of this period are usually repeated enter by conservative with a small c that are more about tradition. Plus less time on planet make you more risk adverse.

 

Ill be honest I’m amazed by lack of nuanced thinking around people’s voting choices. Voting is a pretty complex thing and requires to make a variety of assessment on wide ranging issue. It’s rarely down to a single issue.

 

However, people find it to easy to demonise others with a different opinion as opposed to engage in actual discussion and deal with facts. That’s pretty disappointing and maybe why we have so many poor politicians. It’s not about making things better for mining but winning some faux battle imo.

 

 

I was asking Sraman.

 

But i agrée that just shouting from the sidelines about evil this and no principles that does annoy me

 

But I differ from you in that I generally vote on single issues hence my boring everyone on tax balance.  But it usually makes my voting choice easier.

 

Accepted that others vote on a more broad base so it’s more difficult.

 

But I suspect more shy Tories on here than they are letting on.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

I was asking Sraman.

 

But i agrée that just shouting from the sidelines about evil this and no principles that does annoy me

 

But I differ from you in that I generally vote on single issues hence my boring everyone on tax balance.  But it usually makes my voting choice easier.

 

Accepted that others vote on a more broad base so it’s more difficult.

 

But I suspect more shy Tories on here than they are letting on.

 

 

 

I would imagine so considering they had a 40% overall share at the last general election. However, I can’t imagine many want to engage when other continue to label them ‘evil’ ‘disgusting’ ‘vile’ that hyperbole imo and the reality is it’s just someone who has a different view from you. 

 

Irinically the people who claim to be more ‘caring’ are major contributors to the tribalisation of politics in this country.

 

All parties, despite what some say, want the best for the country. Thet just believe there is different ways going about it.

 

If people are getting to the stage that they want to harm others due to their political beliefs. I would be concerned for their mental well being!

 

 

 

 

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Thunderstruck
58 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

So tell me why people as they get older swap from Labour to Tory?

 

 

 

I agree with “small c conservatism” rationale although the migration to Tory with age is probably greatly emphasised.

 

There are many variables and voters are now better informed and work to varying agenda. As you demonstrate, voting Conservative in NE Scotland is more about countering the SNP than a display of support for the Tory policies. 

 

Corbyn is not the great threat that some suggest.  To win over the crucial voters, his manifesto would need to temper the more extreme rhetoric that makes them attractive to some key electors. Key electors such as the 533 voters in 9 marginal constituencies who, if they had voted differently, would have have given May her full majority. 

 

At the other end of the age spectrum, we we also hear about the “Youthquake” and how that has been mobilised in support of Corbyn. Unfortunately, the “Youthquake” has now been exposed as a myth. 

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/news/

 

As ever, elections will be won by the Party that best appeals to the middle-ground. Corbyn, however, is not doing much to improve his standing in that constituency.  The simple fact that the monumentally stupid Diane Abbott remains on his Front Bench has to ring alarm bells. 

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jack D and coke
8 hours ago, deesidejambo said:

Ok you , Shaun, and Spacey do a lot of greetin on this thread, but I dont see you proposing solutions.

 

So what would you do?   

 

I,ll start- 

 

Increase the higher tax rate to 45% for anyone over 80k

 

Massively increase Inheritance tax for all estates over £100,000 to stop the wealth of the rich old people just going to their kids.

 

Increase the starting tax threshold to whatever it needs to be to balance the tax revenue with the above, thereby shifting tax burden away from poor towards those who can afford it.

 

reduce the Pension LTA to £500k

 

reduce the annual tax free pension limit to 10k to stop the tax avoidance which is making older people richer.

 

allow all those in Calais with proven families in the U.K. to enter.

 

this to me is fair.

 

So over to you chaps -  what would you do?

Scrap income tax altogether. I’m not sure exactly what should be brought in its place but it causes so many problems, creates so many loopholes etc etc etc. Do away with it and get tax money in other ways, if it’s all on goods then fair enough, we all buy loads of goods and we need to. Luxury items obviously get taxed higher so rich people can’t escape, mortgage tax etc. 

I know it’s short on detail but along those lines something needs to happen for me. 

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deesidejambo
6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Scrap income tax altogether. I’m not sure exactly what should be brought in its place but it causes so many problems, creates so many loopholes etc etc etc. Do away with it and get tax money in other ways, if it’s all on goods then fair enough, we all buy loads of goods and we need to. Luxury items obviously get taxed higher so rich people can’t escape, mortgage tax etc. 

I know it’s short on detail but along those lines something needs to happen for me. 

Interesting!     Would vote for that a sa principle but I think too many people have massive savings that would be untouched.   It would also discourage spending which many businesses and jobs depend on.

 

i like the idea of a wealth tax though if it could be worked.

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8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Scrap income tax altogether. I’m not sure exactly what should be brought in its place but it causes so many problems, creates so many loopholes etc etc etc. Do away with it and get tax money in other ways, if it’s all on goods then fair enough, we all buy loads of goods and we need to. Luxury items obviously get taxed higher so rich people can’t escape, mortgage tax etc. 

I know it’s short on detail but along those lines something needs to happen for me. 

 

That’s different. 

 

I wouldnt nevessaily be against it if the sums the suns added up. Though I wonder if disadvantage those that aren’t working for whatever reason. Whilst, are you potentially discouraging spending and the impact this has the economy. There might be a few issues with it. 

 

Though I had never thought about that approach before.

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3 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

 

i like the idea of a wealth tax though if it could be worked.

 

It’s a nice theory but it has consequences. The reality is they haven’t been all that successful..

 

It results in massive capital flight and associated drain plays havoc with the economy. Whilst investment in the economy drops massively.

 

People invest to make a return, so go where conditions are best.

 

Whilst wealth isn’t the easiest thing to ascertain. So practicalities and logistics associated are difficult.

 

Pretty sure that a lot of countries introduced that ended up binning. I also believe they attributed wealth taxes to playing a part in global financial crisis.

 

i personally think it’s unfair and not comfortable with a government having a say on something I own. That’s a slippery slope for me.

 

 

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Space Mackerel
49 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Scrap income tax altogether. I’m not sure exactly what should be brought in its place but it causes so many problems, creates so many loopholes etc etc etc. Do away with it and get tax money in other ways, if it’s all on goods then fair enough, we all buy loads of goods and we need to. Luxury items obviously get taxed higher so rich people can’t escape, mortgage tax etc. 

I know it’s short on detail but along those lines something needs to happen for me. 

 

Small flaw there pal, all these companies that will be collecting this new tax system are currently right now avoiding paying tax via offshore shell companies etc. 

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Space Mackerel
23 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

Lots of good ideas but all tricky.    Maybe murdering the Tories is the easiest!

 

And you criticise me for my comment about OAP’s eventually passing on lol

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