Cade Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 3 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1990/09/art1full.pdf There were still jobs and opportunities in the 80s , but in different industries , albeit probs of less paid . There was always the opportunities to go to college / uni and receive full funding for it too . The people I'm talking about were only born in 1980. Once you cut one generation of people in a place off from normal expectations of social integration and mobility, you shouldn't be surprised if many of their children (and in turn grandchildren) are also cut off from those expectations. Once that happens, it doesn't matter what opportunities you offer those people when they reach 18 - most of them will have never had anyone in their lives to pass on a sense of the value of education or a work ethic. Many of them won't even have the basic rudiments of learning and couldn't take on further or higher education even if it were free. This stuff is almost invisible to a child, but it moulds their lives. You might believe you improved your lot as a person from a poor background, but you needed a lot of help from others, you needed role models to look up to, and you needed a measure of luck. So did I, by the way. The rest you still have to do for yourself, but without the supports I've mentioned 99% or more of young people will never even make it to the starting blocks. In the 50s, 60s, and 70s young people from impoverished backgrounds had a lot of opportunity and a lot of family and community support. That was torn up in Britain and Ireland in the 1980s, and two generations later today's young people from those backgrounds have less of both, and it is no surprise that so many of them don't manage to improve their lot or escape their impoverished backgrounds. If you've lost kids from what we might call "normal" at an early age, it's almost impossible to get them back on track later. Edited March 27 by Ulysses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Good posts, Uly. I don't know so much about Ireland but the damage to the social fabric of large swathes of the country was enormous. The communities affected may not have exactly have been prosperous but men were proud to be miners, steelworkers, shipbuilders etc as were the generations before them and taking that away from them often took away their identity and that was happening at such a scale that it would leave deep and long lasting scars. It wasn't always realistic to expect a 4th generation miner to retrain to become an electrician, flip burgers or sell insurance. What makes it worse is that many of those damaged communities were vulnerable to the populist rhetoric of Farage and Co with their take back control, blame the immigrants spiel and gave those ****s a mandate to shaft them further with brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 10 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1990/09/art1full.pdf There were still jobs and opportunities in the 80s , but in different industries , albeit probs of less paid . There was always the opportunities to go to college / uni and receive full funding for it too . Good post James coal like oil and gas was never going to be forever and retraining is always going to be required Scargill and the unions brought about their own early demise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 38 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said: Good post James coal like oil and gas was never going to be forever and retraining is always going to be required Scargill and the unions brought about their own early demise 👍 it was only delaying the inevitable . Notice not a pip out of some regarding the ending of oil extraction in Scotland championed by the creepy greens and SNP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundermann Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Stool Britannia... Turd Reich etc.... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/26/4m-hours-of-raw-sewage-discharges-in-england-last-year-figures-expected-to-show Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, Gundermann said: Stool Britannia... Turd Reich etc.... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/26/4m-hours-of-raw-sewage-discharges-in-england-last-year-figures-expected-to-show What an absolute disgrace. As the Toalies are scum it’s not a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 A mere drop in the ocean when compared to the daily shite by the obsessed comrades on this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 19 hours ago, Footballfirst said: I wonder how this will play out. Orban to pull out on the grounds that he doesn't want to tarnish his moderate credentials? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehcaley Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said: Good posts, Uly. I don't know so much about Ireland but the damage to the social fabric of large swathes of the country was enormous. The communities affected may not have exactly have been prosperous but men were proud to be miners, steelworkers, shipbuilders etc as were the generations before them and taking that away from them often took away their identity and that was happening at such a scale that it would leave deep and long lasting scars. It wasn't always realistic to expect a 4th generation miner to retrain to become an electrician, flip burgers or sell insurance. What makes it worse is that many of those damaged communities were vulnerable to the populist rhetoric of Farage and Co with their take back control, blame the immigrants spiel and gave those ****s a mandate to shaft them further with brexit. I was a 4th generation miner,a highly skilled and qualified coalface electrical engineer who,like most of my colleagues,transferred skills without a problem.Thought I had died and gone to heaven after a few weeks working in Telecoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 8 hours ago, Ulysses said: The people I'm talking about were only born in 1980. Once you cut one generation of people in a place off from normal expectations of social integration and mobility, you shouldn't be surprised if many of their children (and in turn grandchildren) are also cut off from those expectations. Once that happens, it doesn't matter what opportunities you offer those people when they reach 18 - most of them will have never had anyone in their lives to pass on a sense of the value of education or a work ethic. Many of them won't even have the basic rudiments of learning and couldn't take on further or higher education even if it were free. This stuff is almost invisible to a child, but it moulds their lives. You might believe you improved your lot as a person from a poor background, but you needed a lot of help from others, you needed role models to look up to, and you needed a measure of luck. So did I, by the way. The rest you still have to do for yourself, but without the supports I've mentioned 99% or more of young people will never even make it to the starting blocks. In the 50s, 60s, and 70s young people from impoverished backgrounds had a lot of opportunity and a lot of family and community support. That was torn up in Britain and Ireland in the 1980s, and two generations later today's young people from those backgrounds have less of both, and it is no surprise that so many of them don't manage to improve their lot or escape their impoverished backgrounds. If you've lost kids from what we might call "normal" at an early age, it's almost impossible to get them back on track later. Truth torpedoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 12 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1990/09/art1full.pdf There were still jobs and opportunities in the 80s , but in different industries , albeit probs of less paid . There was always the opportunities to go to college / uni and receive full funding for it too . Missing the point that local industries were devastated. Opportunities in things like the service sector didn't help you if you were located in a small town which was based around one sector. Did people expect swathes of people from the coal or steel based small town to move to their nearest big city where those jobs were located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Tazio said: Missing the point that local industries were devastated. Opportunities in things like the service sector didn't help you if you were located in a small town which was based around one sector. Did people expect swathes of people from the coal or steel based small town to move to their nearest big city where those jobs were located? Your comment struck a nerve so I went googling for Norman Tebbit - mobility was certainly a thing back in the day and it was the route I followed. The trade off is a detachment from childhood friends and family. https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2023/08/the-absurdity-of-the-tories-on-your-bike-plea Edited March 27 by Japan Jambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said: It wasn't always realistic to expect a 4th generation miner to retrain to become an electrician, flip burgers or sell insurance. I think the important word in that is "always". Many people did, and fair play to them. Most didn't, and that's where the damage got done. It's a simple truth that many people can only see life through the lens of their own experiences, and assume that if it worked out for them it must have been easy for everyone else. They often have no idea how lucky they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tazio said: Missing the point that local industries were devastated. Opportunities in things like the service sector didn't help you if you were located in a small town which was based around one sector. Did people expect swathes of people from the coal or steel based small town to move to their nearest big city where those jobs were located? Things change, industries come and go, and you shouldn't expect things to stay the same forever. The trouble with what happened in the 1980s is that the government of the time set out to accelerate the process, with no strategy to manage the changes and transitions while they were happening. It literally was a case of "the devil take the hindmost". Many people somehow worked their way through that, but many didn't. And that was no accident. The overall strategy was to shutter sunset industries while making a labour pool available for the service industries that would replace them. The real trouble comes later. Young people do not teach themselves or magically learn to be a productive part of society. The have to learn that from the people around them. The cliché is true - if you can't see it, you can't be it. If you create whole streets and estates made up of people who "can't see it" - and we have - then you have a ready-made recipe for intergenerational failure, with all the familar symptoms of alienation, disengagement, poor health, housing and education, addiction, anti-social behaviour and criminality. In the UK the Tories created that, and New Labour (and in Scotland the SNP) sustained it. And if anyone thinks for a second that the Faragists are gonna fix it they are seriously deluded. Maybe there is no fix for it, and we should just accept that it'll always be with us. So let's keep it as it is, keep a lid on these places, and ASBO, fine and jail the miscreants and the troublemakers. That's all fine, and I don't disagree with any of it - I don't want the neds and the yobs running amok either. But blaming them for growing up where they did and learning the lessons they did is a bit cheeky, when 99% of us would have done no differently. Edited March 27 by Ulysses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Wee Rashid was in front of the select committee yesterday mansplaining his Rwanda/Small Boats policy to two female MPs. How's that going ya wee shitehawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 18 minutes ago, Ulysses said: Maybe there is no fix for it, and we should just accept that it'll always be with us. So let's keep it as it is, keep a lid on these places, and ASBO, fine and jail the miscreants and the troublemakers. That's all fine, and I don't disagree with any of it - I don't want the neds and the yobs running amok either. But blaming them for growing up where they did and learning the lessons they did is a bit cheeky, when 99% of us would have done no differently. 'Managed decline' I think was the phrase some Tory or other coined for what you describe above. In the good old days of Empire we could generally rely on giving those troublesome, uneducated, commoner types some rudimentary training and a rifle before sending them off to shoot at brown people and maintain order in the colonies. They could do their running amok there while remaining somehow productive for the motherland and at the same time utterly expendable. What we need is a return to an expansionist foreign policy, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ulysses said: have no idea how lucky they Not “‘luck “ for me and many others . it came from an aspirational attitude , studying and work. Edited March 27 by JudyJudyJudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Not “‘luck “ for me and many others . it came from an aspirational attitude , studying and work. And good fortune. Same as me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 43 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: Wee Rashid was in front of the select committee yesterday mansplaining his Rwanda/Small Boats policy to two female MPs. How's that going ya wee shitehawk The actual numbers for the first quarter in the last few years are revealing. Q1 Boats People 2020 32 465 2021 74 1363 2022 147 4548 2023 91 3793 2024 98 4644 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 37 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: The actual numbers for the first quarter in the last few years are revealing. Q1 Boats People 2020 32 465 2021 74 1363 2022 147 4548 2023 91 3793 2024 98 4644 The load efficiency of the boats is improving year on year. Micko Ryanair could learn a lesson or two from them - or maybe they're learning from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 55 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Not “‘luck “ for me and many others . it came from an aspirational attitude , studying and work. That's utter shite, james. Unless you were born in a sewer and raised by wolves in a country with no access to education or welfare then, to coin a phrase, you wee born 3 - nil up and think that you've scored a hat-trick. 54 minutes ago, Ulysses said: And good fortune. Same as me. Correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 47 minutes ago, Ulysses said: The load efficiency of the boats is improving year on year. Micko Ryanair could learn a lesson or two from them - or maybe they're learning from him. CalMac are already trying to do a deal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 24 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said: CalMac are already trying to do a deal... Start the boats... ...no, wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 29 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said: CalMac are already trying to do a deal... One way ferry trip and campervan package. 600K no questions answered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundermann Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) More from the turd world country. Are the English pumping shit into their waters to try and deter refugees? Nose, spite, face. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68674088 Edited March 27 by Gundermann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I P Knightley Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 27 minutes ago, Gundermann said: More from the turd world country. Are the English pumping shit into their waters to try and deter refugees? Nose, spite, face. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68674088 Oxford and Cambridge university students being told not to dip their cox in the river? Despite being among the cleverest students in the land, they'll probably do it anyway. Mucky buggers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Dimwit Gullis being promoted means he gets a larger pension and a much larger golden handshake when he steps down/loses his seat. This may or may not be why the Tory shitehawks reshuffle every few weeks. They ken fine they're all getting turfed out so they're bumping up their payoffs and pensions by "getting promoted" then resigning the post/"being fired" a few weeks or months later. It's a grift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 The 1% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I P Knightley Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 13 minutes ago, Cade said: Dimwit Gullis being promoted means he gets a larger pension and a much larger golden handshake when he steps down/loses his seat. This may or may not be why the Tory shitehawks reshuffle every few weeks. They ken fine they're all getting turfed out so they're bumping up their payoffs and pensions by "getting promoted" then resigning the post/"being fired" a few weeks or months later. It's a grift. I understood that the Deputy Chairmanship was a party appointment, rather a governmental one. That would mean that any extra money he was entitled to from the appointment would be funded from Tory coffers, not the public purse. The high turnover of ministers, on the other hand, does lead to extra ministerial salary and pension "entitlements". So, when Heappey and Halfron were replaced, despite only having a few weeks to see out their time in post, that added two more snouts to the trough. For all Sunak's ineptitude and feebleness, he still saw fit not to give Gullis a ministerial post. Poor chimp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 9 hours ago, ehcaley said: I was a 4th generation miner,a highly skilled and qualified coalface electrical engineer who,like most of my colleagues,transferred skills without a problem.Thought I had died and gone to heaven after a few weeks working in Telecoms. That's heartening to hear. My own auld man had to retrain several times and give up his trade and eventually earned more than his own profession would ever pay but I don't think he ever felt he had gone to heaven. He worked ridiculous hours in two jobs and often found himself in short term employment. I've no idea how that must have felt for him but I'm pretty sure the lifestyle he had to lead was a factor in his ill health in later life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 NHS satisfaction polling data looks like an interesting foresight into possible voting intentions. NHS satisfaction is now at a record low. It's zenith was at the end of the last Labour government. Interesting is that there's not much between the satisfaction declared by Labour and Tory voters. Despite small boats being front and centre of Tory MPs' rhetoric, people are more concerned about things like the NHS and the cost of living. Is there actually anything left for the clownshow to campaign on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 8 hours ago, Ulysses said: I think the important word in that is "always". Many people did, and fair play to them. Most didn't, and that's where the damage got done. It's a simple truth that many people can only see life through the lens of their own experiences, and assume that if it worked out for them it must have been easy for everyone else. They often have no idea how lucky they were. I fall into the category of being very lucky. II think most people who know me well would probably describe me as a workaholic but more importantly for me is I probably made the right choices at the right time and took advantage of the opportunities as they arose. Work ethic wouldn't have made much difference if those opportunities hadn't presented themselves and for a lot of people they never do. Hubris and sneering at folk who didn't get those breaks stems from the very ideology and policies that created the damage in the first place which I think kinda proves my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 12 hours ago, manaliveits105 said: Good post James coal like oil and gas was never going to be forever and retraining is always going to be required Scargill and the unions brought about their own early demise Thatcher and her Tory government brought about the demise of the coal industry,the steel industry,car making industry etc. Just showing how little you know ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 21 minutes ago, henrysmithsgloves said: Thatcher and her Tory government brought about the demise of the coal industry,the steel industry,car making industry etc. Just showing how little you know ! Didn't Labour close more pits that Thatcher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Victorian said: NHS satisfaction polling data looks like an interesting foresight into possible voting intentions. NHS satisfaction is now at a record low. It's zenith was at the end of the last Labour government. Interesting is that there's not much between the satisfaction declared by Labour and Tory voters. Despite small boats being front and centre of Tory MPs' rhetoric, people are more concerned about things like the NHS and the cost of living. Is there actually anything left for the clownshow to campaign on? Yes. Culture wars. Convince the dafties that the shit state of the country is not down to 14 years of malfeasance but down to being woke or knowing what a woman is. It'll work too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 38 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: Didn't Labour close more pits that Thatcher? About the same, difference was Thatcher decimated it...a wee unbiased read... https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/who-killed-the-mines-2401926 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Just now, henrysmithsgloves said: About the same, difference was Thatcher decimated it...a wee unbiased read... https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/who-killed-the-mines-2401926 I'm not standing up for Thatcher or the Tories, but I thought Labour closed more pits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: I'm not standing up for Thatcher or the Tories, but I thought Labour closed more pits. It's cool bro.. about the same in closing pits ...there was plenty pits that were still viable that the Tories closed,some did require closing,I don't dispute that. One example,the Tories wanted ravenscraig shut,so they made sure the main pit supplier of coking coal was flooded, despite installation of a multi million pound pump😳 The miners stood up for the working class, crush the miners and you can ride roughshod over the rest,and boy did the Tories know this,and have done since😞 They started stockpiling coal years before the strike. Buying heavily subsidised coal from abroad. The bonus scheme introduced late 70s by labour was a contributing factor that split the NUM. Edited March 27 by henrysmithsgloves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, henrysmithsgloves said: It's cool bro.. there was plenty pits that were still viable,some did require closing,I don't dispute that. One example,the Tories wanted ravenscraig shut,so they made sure the main pit supplier of coking coal was flooded, despite installation of a multi million pound pump😳 The miners stood up for the working class, crush the miners and you can ride roughshod over the rest,and boy did the Tories know this,and have done since😞 They started stockpiling coal years before the strike. Buying heavily subsidised coal from abroad. The bonus scheme introduced late 70s by labour was a contributing factor that split the NUM. I was from a mining community and was in second year at high school, Lasswade, when the strike was on, truly horrible times, there was a big percentage of kids at Lasswade at time who's Dad's were miners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 15 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: I was from a mining community and was in second year at high school, Lasswade, when the strike was on, truly horrible times, there was a big percentage of kids at Lasswade at time who's Dad's were miners. The bright side of my auld man getting made redundant was he got precious time to spend with my mam before cancer got her. Most of the miners that got made redundant were incorrectly taxed on their payments , luckily one of my dad's mates from the pits,got out early and became a financial advisor noticed it. Got my dad a fair whack returned from HMRC . The returns made from the NUM pension scheme make a fortune now for the government,a lot more than was paid in redundancy,not a lot of people know that😳 so in a way still making money from the pits, city of London and the Tory profiteering 🤬 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 https://news.sky.com/story/thames-water-shareholders-blame-ofwat-as-they-pull-funding-13103112 And there it is. The major shareholders of Thames Water refuse to reinvest in it because there's not enough of a grift to be had. They've had all of the asset stripping share dividends over years. The business is insolvent. No money for infrastructure. Shareholders not interested. Pension funds and Chinese wealth funds have had theirs. Taxpayers and bill payers will deal with the aftermath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 It's started the mere hint of a labour government and investors start to bolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 15 minutes ago, Victorian said: https://news.sky.com/story/thames-water-shareholders-blame-ofwat-as-they-pull-funding-13103112 And there it is. The major shareholders of Thames Water refuse to reinvest in it because there's not enough of a grift to be had. They've had all of the asset stripping share dividends over years. The business is insolvent. No money for infrastructure. Shareholders not interested. Pension funds and Chinese wealth funds have had theirs. Taxpayers and bill payers will deal with the aftermath. It's actually worse than that. The company has borrowed £14bn in order to finance their spending, interest payments and dividends. They also want to increase bills by 8% each year for the next 5 years. A licence to print money while taking no responsibility for the state of the company, or indeed the infrastructure. That's what privatisation buys you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 5 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said: It's started the mere hint of a labour government and investors start to bolt Yes. They know that the gravy train is about to be derailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: It's actually worse than that. The company has borrowed £14bn in order to finance their spending, interest payments and dividends. They also want to increase bills by 8% each year for the next 5 years. A licence to print money while taking no responsibility for the state of the company, or indeed the infrastructure. That's what privatisation buys you. It's an oligarchy, nothing less. These are absolute monopolies with a captive market. The shareholders want these bill increases, as well as the removal of regulations (lol) and sanctioning powers (lol). Borrowing money for the purpose of dividend payments is about the most corrupt and criminal commercial behaviour you can get. Thames now seems to be content to have a stand-off with Ofwat and the government. Allow the new grift or the business collapses. The only thing that can be met with is immediate nationalisation. One way or another, taxpayers and bill payers are going to be hit. Might as well make sure the current shareholders don't get any more benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 The ultimate ownership / shareholding of these companies should eventually fall to an arms length national wealth fund. With meaningful regulation on corporate decision making. Unregulated private corporate predation in a monopolised marketplace is just another wealth stripping drain on society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Striker Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) 45 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said: It's started the mere hint of a labour government and investors start to bolt "investors", aye ? Perhaps you can explain what these Thames Water investors did to prevent the River Thames becoming a toilet - while gladly pocketing absurd dividends and supporting a reduction in infrastructure projects prior to the Tideway Tunnel being started. This is from 9 months ago - In charts: how privatisation drained Thames Water’s coffers Decades of underinvestment and bumper dividends have left the firm debt-laden and under investigation Sandra Laville, Anna Leach and Carmen Aguilar García Fri 30 Jun 2023 06.00 BST Share In a little over three decades, Thames Water, the biggest water and sewerage company in England, serving 15 million people, has transformed from a debt-free public utility into what critics argue is a privately owned investment vehicle carrying the highest debt in the industry. Over those years – as admitted by Sarah Bentley, the firm’s departing CEO – its executives and the shareholders and private equity companies who own it have presided over decades of underinvestment, aggressive cost-cutting and huge dividend payments. The symptom of these decades can be seen in the scale of sewage discharges, the record leaks from its pipes and the state of its treatment plants – which are now at the centre of a criminal investigation by the Environment Agency into illegal sewage dumping and a regulatory inquiry by Ofwat. Analysis of the accounts of Thames Water between 1990 and 2022 reveal a story that is echoed to some degree across the industry. The figures show how privatisation – which was intended to lead to a new era of investment, improved water quality and low bills – turned water into a cash cow for investment firms and private equity companies, none more so than the Australian infrastructure asset management firm Macquarie which, with its co-investors, bought Thames Water in 2006 from a German utility firm for£4.8bn. By the time Macquarie sold its stake in Thames Water in 2017, debts had more than tripled from £3.2bn to £10.5bn, unadjusted for inflation. Its pattern was to borrow against its assets to increase dividend payments to shareholders. By 2017, when Macquarie sold its last stake, the pattern of debt remained, and the rate of accruing debt continued on the same trajectory. Macquarie and its co-investors made their position clear from the start, hiking dividends in the first year of their operations, 2007, to £656m when profits were a fraction of that at £241m. Over their 11 years of control, Macquarie and its co-investors paid out £2.8bn to shareholders, which is two-fifths of the total £7bn in dividends that Thames Water has paid between 1990 and 2022. The average yearly dividends paid during the Macquarie period were five times higher than those paid after it sold its final stake in 2017. The consortium that took over ownership of Thames Water in 2017 has not taken a dividend since, but the company has paid internal dividends – including £37m in the year to 31 March 2022. Ofwat recommends that companies maintain a ratio of debt to capital value of 60%. But Thames Water’s debt now amounts to £14.3bn – almost a quarter of the total £60bn debt run up by the privatised water companies in just over three decades. This weight of debt is at one of the highest levels in the industry, with Thames Water’s gearing at 80%. More than half of this debt is inflation-linked, leaving Thames facing hikes on its debt repayment, even as it is being told to invest billions more fixing the infrastructure which has been left to crumble. Edited March 28 by Lone Striker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Striker Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 For some reason the photos in the articles didn't copy over. As today's news articles demonstrate (e.g. the Sky one posted by @Victorian, private equity investment companies should never have been allowed anywhere near a privatised utility company which enjoys a monopoly position with its region's customers. Ofwat is in a catch 22 situation as a result - impose a big fine on Thames Water for continual pollution of rivers & beaches, but end up seeing it reduce its spending in order to pay for the extra borrowing required to meet its shareholders expectations as if no fine had been imposed. Utterly outrageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 19 minutes ago, Lone Striker said: For some reason the photos in the articles didn't copy over. As today's news articles demonstrate (e.g. the Sky one posted by @Victorian, private equity investment companies should never have been allowed anywhere near a privatised utility company which enjoys a monopoly position with its region's customers. Ofwat is in a catch 22 situation as a result - impose a big fine on Thames Water for continual pollution of rivers & beaches, but end up seeing it reduce its spending in order to pay for the extra borrowing required to meet its shareholders expectations as if no fine had been imposed. Utterly outrageous. What a farce it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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