Even More SNP Nonsense

[Pans Jambo]

5 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

Do you actually believe those answers?

 

Are you sitting in Tory HQ as one of those on-line agitators?

 

Tories and Britnats are like religious fanatics. You just cant argue. They only listen to thier own dogma. 

 

A blind man could see the UK is broken. 

[Sraman]

32 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

As Attlee said the referendum is the tool of the dictator and despot. Vox pop gone mad.

 

 

And don't they know it! Bloody "Russians".

[Harry Potter]

8 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Sorry but that makes no sense. The whole point of a referendum is to see what the result is, you can't then retrospectively turn around and say it was a waste because you know the result based on that said referendum. 

 

By all means argue a second one is a waste of money. 

A second vote should NOT be allowed as we have a result from the first one, thought that was obvious from what i typed.

[Sraman]

13 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

A second vote should NOT be allowed as we have a result from the first one, thought that was obvious from what i typed.

 

It's just not Cricket is it old boy? Isn't it? A googlie you say, oh. Bloody democracy.

[Space Mackerel]

15 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

A second vote should NOT be allowed as we have a result from the first one, thought that was obvious from what i typed.

 

That doesn’t sound very democratic. 

Do you not like democracy? 

[Geoff the Mince]

Anyway when  are we getting Indy Ref  2 ??

 

will there be a push for it prior to brexit ?  Probably not  for multiple reasons 

 

or do they  wait for the fallout of brexit ? 

 

I voted for Indy previously but I've found the SNP and Greens to be as annoying as the Tories and Labour .

[Pans Jambo]

24 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

A second vote should NOT be allowed as we have a result from the first one, thought that was obvious from what i typed.

We were told that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No. now we are out of the EU against our will. 

 

We were told vote NO & get as close to federalism as possible unyet the want to keep powers coming back from Brussels. 

 

We were told remain part of the UK and lead it unyet the very next day Cameron announce EVEL. 

 

We were lied to. Things have changed. & not for the better. 

 

Time to go. A 2nd referendum is required. 

 

 

[Sraman]

Just now, Geoff the Mince said:

Anyway when  are we getting Indy Ref  2 ??

 

will there be a push for it prior to brexit ?  Probably not  for multiple reasons 

 

or do they  wait for the fallout of brexit ? 

 

I voted for Indy previously but I've found the SNP and Greens to be as annoying as the Tories and Labour .

 

That, is the purpose of politicians. They are to blame but they are also untouchable. This works until the electorate are that incensed  by them that it spills out onto social media then into real life and hey presto, just as the design models predicted, out we pop into a more hateful lot re-affirming the continuation of  good old fashioned, traditional British values "them or us" politics. Did you see that? How did they do that? They're no as daft as they think we think they are, that's how.

[AlphonseCapone]

44 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

A second vote should NOT be allowed as we have a result from the first one, thought that was obvious from what i typed.

 

We'll agree to disagree that your first post was obvious Harry. 

[AlphonseCapone]

26 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

Anyway when  are we getting Indy Ref  2 ??

 

will there be a push for it prior to brexit ?  Probably not  for multiple reasons 

 

or do they  wait for the fallout of brexit ? 

 

I voted for Indy previously but I've found the SNP and Greens to be as annoying as the Tories and Labour .

 

Why does that matter? Independence isn't about parties. 

[Sraman]

2 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Why does that matter? Independence isn't about parties. 

 

Speak for yourself. I might have a wee port or two when that ship finally comes in.

[AlphonseCapone]

8 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

Speak for yourself. I might have a wee port or two when that ship finally comes in.

 

A dram of whisky surely! 

[Sraman]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

 

A dram of whisky surely! 

 

I'll stick with the port, or maybe a claret so you can utilise the barrels, thank you very much.

[Sarah O]

14 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

Speak for yourself. I might have a wee port or two when that ship finally comes in.

[Geoff the Mince]

16 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Why does that matter? Independence isn't about parties. 

I've no faith in any of the Politicans  from any parties .

 

I'm back to not voting as I can't vote for someone I disagree with .

 

I thought with the last few years a few new progressive people would appear 

 

Unfortunately not .

[JamboX2]

58 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

That doesn’t sound very democratic. 

Do you not like democracy? 

 

If Yes won. Should we have a second vote once the terms are agreed?

[Sraman]

8 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

I've no faith in any of the Politicans  from any parties .

 

I'm back to not voting as I can't vote for someone I disagree with .

 

I thought with the last few years a few new progressive people would appear 

 

Unfortunately not .

 

 

There are still constraints as to how "progressive" a party can be. There always will be and as such, "small steps" is the only way to go to reach any kind of goal in the world of UK politics. You only have to look at the length of time it took Labour to be allowed, let alone take hold and become a fixture in UK politics, not to mention the length of time the SNP has taken to become so prominent either. Independence is the most progressive policy on offer within these constraints. Why? Because we get to carry out a re-set of constraints once gained, where we can let the thinkers think, the doers do and the informers inform the people of what works best and why. Or we can just carry on as before lurching from boom to bust to boom to bust to war to boom to bust to war.............

[Sraman]

14 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

If Yes won. Should we have a second vote once the terms are agreed?

 

I don't see why not.

 

"It has clearly been decided by the Scottish electorate that your sums are wrong and you must return to the table with a more realistic offer. And while we're at it, no you're not keeping our fishing rights to gamble away as you please, so get them back in ya sleekit nonces ye."

[Pans Jambo]

32 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

A dram of whisky surely! 

Not ‘British’ Whisky though eh???

[JamboX2]

54 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

I don't see why not.

 

"It has clearly been decided by the Scottish electorate that your sums are wrong and you must return to the table with a more realistic offer. And while we're at it, no you're not keeping our fishing rights to gamble away as you please, so get them back in ya sleekit nonces ye."

 

And if like the EU the UK say take it or leave it, then is it a question of yes or no to independence on those terms or staying in the fold?

[Sraman]

27 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

And if like the EU the UK say take it or leave it, then is it a question of yes or no to independence on those terms or staying in the fold?

 

 

The UK want to have their cake and eat it as well, the EU are, quite correctly, not having any of that nonsense guv. 

 

As I've said before, having some schoolkid mentality "Look at the size of my bollocks" does nothing to help either party. It is in both parties interests to tie up the deals in the quickest possible fashion to create the least amount of ripples for all. Stability, is the cry of the Economists amongst us so let's cut out the crap and get straight to the chase in front of the whole world to ensure that the stability is able to return to both parties as soon as possible. It would not be a time for cutting off ones nose to spite ones face and it would only hurt both parties if one were to even try it. I guess I'm saying it would be nice to remind everyone that we are Civilised Nations and are capable of carrying out a Civilised split in a Civilised way.

[Doogz]

11 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Do you think we aren't noticing the mistakes during Brexit? There's that many, I've even spotted a few in Lunxit (nah that doesnae work does it).There are challenges in everything we do, we overcome, history  tells us this (there it is folks the Kickback catchphrase  ), and to be serious, why keep putting up obstacles when there are none. They are just a lot of what ifs. What if your wife gets pregnant with an unexpected child, will Westminster be your best bet, or an Independent Scotland? Is just as viable a political concern as all you guys and your money money money talk. As long as the money's sorted, phew! Thank goodness for that. I thought I would have to postpone my early retirement for a minute there.

 

I haven't ignored the details. You have made up a set of circumstances in an imaginary future of your own choosing. You have yet to provide enough data relating to this imaginary future for me to delve into the details of said imaginary future and propose any meaningful solutions to the imaginary obstacles your head has imagined.

 

This next bit is a guess, but I think it's a pretty good one. After 25 years experience, I'm gonna guess that you're good at your job. On the ball and up with the latest craic and I'm gonna guess that a lot of your colleagues, in all the different departments, are in a similar position to you. Experience counts for a lot. An experienced workforce, at the cutting edge of Banking practices with infrastructure already in place, located in one of the top ten in the World locations. It would be silly not to utilise these resources. Don't get me wrong, krakow is a nice place as well but would you be welcome after Brexit? See, again, it is Brexit that is your nemesis not Independence.

Difficult to know where to begin with this but I'll try to pick out some highlights - but it still seems your overall pov is "Brexit is bad, Indy will be grand".

 

"Why keep putting up obstacles when there are none" - not going to repeat what I've said earlier but I've given you plenty of examples of problems that exist now and more that are to come.

You accuse me of making up scenarios of my choosing - moments after you make up an imaginary wife for me with an imaginary pregnancy and shortly before moving me to an imaginary job in Krakow.

You try to dismiss the economic concerns - but this Utopian Scotland you dream of still has to pay the bills: it's all well and goid saying independence will allow us to choose how we prioritise spending on NHS, education, pensions etc. but that prioritisation is meaningless if we can't afford to pay for it.

You say I haven't given you enough data about this imaginary future - I'm not going to make detailed estimates about it - I'm merely speculating based on my 25 years in the industry and what I see day to day. If you want a breakdown on the actual numbers to see how much money historically comes into the Scottish Financial Services industry from Scotland, the rest of the UK, the rest of the EU I can dig that out for you - but the high level summary is the majority is from the rest of the UK - which is why Brexit isn't the only problem here.

[Harry Potter]

9 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

We'll agree to disagree that your first post was obvious Harry. 

Anyway on reading the scottish daily mail yesterday, there is 150000 people who have not worked a day 

in their lives in Scotland, up 16% in the last 10 years, SNP not doing a very good job of that ?.

[Harry Potter]

10 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

That doesn’t sound very democratic. 

Do you not like democracy? 

So we keep voting till you get your way, aye thats the way forward, get a grip,

[JamboX2]

7 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

 

The UK want to have their cake and eat it as well, the EU are, quite correctly, not having any of that nonsense guv. 

 

Which was exactly the same with the 2014 - and by the sounds of it the new - independence prospectus. We were to retain full access to all BBC Services (unlike anywhere else), full access to the UK Energy market (so that consumers in Stoke and Swansea would still subsidise Scottish green energy development - unlike anywhere else), share a currency with a full say on how it was set (not even every EU nation has full control of their shared currency), full access to the UK consular service, shared use of the welfare state's infrastructure... the situation was identical to saying we want to have the full benefits of EU membership from outside the EU. These things can't happen. Cake cannot be had and eaten.

 

Quote

 

As I've said before, having some schoolkid mentality "Look at the size of my bollocks" does nothing to help either party.

 

Agreed. 

 

Quote

 

It is in both parties interests to tie up the deals in the quickest possible fashion to create the least amount of ripples for all. Stability, is the cry of the Economists amongst us so let's cut out the crap and get straight to the chase in front of the whole world to ensure that the stability is able to return to both parties as soon as possible. It would not be a time for cutting off ones nose to spite ones face and it would only hurt both parties if one were to even try it. I guess I'm saying it would be nice to remind everyone that we are Civilised Nations and are capable of carrying out a Civilised split in a Civilised way.

 

Indeed. But as Brexit shows that is not the way of things. Do you honestly think that after years of the SNP telling us they "do not trust Westminster" that they will suddenly be able to trust them to agree a settlement? I do not in the slightest think they do. 

 

The one thing we miss in these issues is that the interests and needs of two newly separate entities are different from the mutual ones that existed before. Brexit again offers a parallel - the EU no longer needs to wory about the British economy as a priority. So any deal struck - in their view - is solely to the EU economy's benefit first. Scotland's interests evaporate to any UK government minutes after a yes vote. 

 

Whilst your sentiment is well placed it ignores reality. To paraphrase what Osbourne said in the 2014 debate on currency union, it may well benefit Scotland but I need to explain to voters in the rest of the UK why I should force them to incur the liabilities of an independent Scotland that has chosen to leave the UK.

Edited May 25, 2018 by JamboX2

[Stuart Lyon]

Well said JamboX2

[Space Mackerel]

Who was saying that oil and gas was finished in the North Sea about 6 months ago? 

 

Cmon out wherever you are deeside me old mucker.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-44224377

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Which was exactly the same with the 2014 - and by the sounds of it the new - independence prospectus. We were to retain full access to all BBC Services (unlike anywhere else), full access to the UK Energy market (so that consumers in Stoke and Swansea would still subsidise Scottish green energy development - unlike anywhere else), share a currency with a full say on how it was set (not even every EU nation has full control of their shared currency), full access to the UK consular service, shared use of the welfare state's infrastructure... the situation was identical to saying we want to have the full benefits of EU membership from outside the EU. These things can't happen. Cake cannot be had and eaten.

 

 

Agreed. 

 

 

Indeed. But as Brexit shows that is not the way of things. Do you honestly think that after years of the SNP telling us they "do not trust Westminster" that they will suddenly be able to trust them to agree a settlement? I do not in the slightest think they do. 

 

The one thing we miss in these issues is that the interests and needs of two newly separate entities are different from the mutual ones that existed before. Brexit again offers a parallel - the EU no longer needs to wory about the British economy as a priority. So any deal struck - in their view - is solely to the EU economy's benefit first. Scotland's interests evaporate to any UK government minutes after a yes vote. 

 

Whilst your sentiment is well placed it ignores reality. To paraphrase what Osbourne said in the 2014 debate on currency union, it may well benefit Scotland but I need to explain to voters in the rest of the UK why I should force them to incur the liabilities of an independent Scotland that has chosen to leave the UK.

 

Ive given a link to Robert Macalpine’s very excellent researched book not so long ago for download, “How to Start a New Country”

Might be an idea to read it to get a better understanding of what would happen post Indy Yes vote.

 

 

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Harry Potter said:

Anyway on reading the scottish daily mail yesterday, there is 150000 people who have not worked a day 

in their lives in Scotland, up 16% in the last 10 years, SNP not doing a very good job of that ?.

 

Well on the surface it doesn't sound good but are these stats counting people who aren't in a position to work, such as people with extreme learning difficulties or severe physical disabilities?

 

Also, Scotland won't be unique in having work shy people so to understand if that figure is as dramatic as it seems, (it is actually only roughly 3% of the entire population), we need comparison to other parts of the UK and elsewhere, using a rate per head, not raw numbers. 

 

Having looked there at the population growth compared to this growth in the same period there is indeed a slight increase though I haven't checked if it's statistical significant. And it's still important to make comparisons elsewhere. 

 

However, one thing that always happens on any subject matter in Scotland is the very childish logic: 

 

Figure look good therefore it's because we are in the UK. 

 

Figures look bad therefore imagine how even worse it would be if are independent. 

 

SNP are performing badly therefore independence would go badly as though independence is a vote for a one party state and they wouldn't be kicked out of office like happens across the globe when things go bad. In fact, they are more likely to be punted post independence because they still maintain a strong vote here due to independence. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by AlphonseCapone

[Space Mackerel]

2 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Anyway on reading the scottish daily mail yesterday, there is 150000 people who have not worked a day 

in their lives in Scotland, up 16% in the last 10 years, SNP not doing a very good job of that ?.

 

Everytime you give a stat on the current Scottish economy you do realise that you’re actually giving more credence to independence and highlighting the dysfunction of Westminster rule? 

 

You do realise this? 

[John Findlay]

18 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Well on the surface it doesn't sound good but are these stats counting people who aren't in a position to work, such as people with extreme learning difficulties or severe physical disabilities?

 

Also, Scotland won't be unique in having work shy people so to understand if that figure is as dramatic as it seems, (it is actually only roughly 3% of the entire population), we need comparison to other parts of the UK and elsewhere, using a rate per head, not raw numbers. 

 

Having looked there at the population growth compared to this growth in the same period there is indeed a slight increase though I haven't checked if it's statistical significant. And it's still important to make comparisons elsewhere. 

 

However, one thing that always happens on any subject matter in Scotland is the very childish logic: 

 

Figure look good therefore it's because we are in the UK. 

 

Figures look bad therefore imagine how even worse it would be if are independent. 

 

SNP are performing badly therefore independence would go badly as though independence is a vote for a one party state and they wouldn't be kicked out of office like happens across the globe when things go bad. In fact, they are more likely to be punted post independence because they still maintain a strong vote here due to independence. 

Why do I get the feeling this post went over Harry Potter'said head.

[151]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Everytime you give a stat on the current Scottish economy you do realise that you’re actually giving more credence to independence and highlighting the dysfunction of Westminster rule? 

 

You do realise this? 

 

 

Aye, anything Scotland does good is a plus to the SNP and anything they are ****ing up is Westminsters fault.

 

The irony of Scotland wanting another referendum is crazy. More uncertainty, division, arguments. The democracy voted No. Democracy.

[Sraman]

3 hours ago, Doogz said:

Difficult to know where to begin with this but I'll try to pick out some highlights - but it still seems your overall pov is "Brexit is bad, Indy will be grand".

 

"Why keep putting up obstacles when there are none" - not going to repeat what I've said earlier but I've given you plenty of examples of problems that exist now and more that are to come.

You accuse me of making up scenarios of my choosing - moments after you make up an imaginary wife for me with an imaginary pregnancy and shortly before moving me to an imaginary job in Krakow.

You try to dismiss the economic concerns - but this Utopian Scotland you dream of still has to pay the bills: it's all well and goid saying independence will allow us to choose how we prioritise spending on NHS, education, pensions etc. but that prioritisation is meaningless if we can't afford to pay for it.

You say I haven't given you enough data about this imaginary future - I'm not going to make detailed estimates about it - I'm merely speculating based on my 25 years in the industry and what I see day to day. If you want a breakdown on the actual numbers to see how much money historically comes into the Scottish Financial Services industry from Scotland, the rest of the UK, the rest of the EU I can dig that out for you - but the high level summary is the majority is from the rest of the UK - which is why Brexit isn't the only problem here.

 

Problems surrounding Independence that hasn't happened yet that exist now? if it hasn't happened yet how can there possibly be problems? 

 

I didn't accuse you of anything. I stated a fact. If it hasn't happened yet how can there possibly be problems?

 

I haven't dismissed any economic concerns surrounding Independence as, at this point in time, there are none. If it hasn't happened yet how can there possibly be problems and how come we're all of a sudden bankrupt in your imaginary scenario?

 

You're not going to make detailed estimates about it, even though you claim, as a lowly IT monkey, to have all the historic data that points to the UK being the most important thing in the history of the financial sector in Scotland? 

 

You're not going to make detailed estimates about it even though you are claiming to be in a position to do so?

 

You do, however, expect me, or the people on the Independence side to give detailed "facts and figures" that prove conclusively that you will definitely, 100%,  be better off and your good fortune of having job security won't change so that you are still able to retire at 55 with no affect to your pension. You don't even spare a thought for your imaginary wife or your unborn child! Focus that crystal ball on me! Why are you looking at fishermen? What the hell use are farmers? Focus on me I tell you. It's nothing to do with Brexit, everyone knows that the source of all money is the rUK, what's that? Where do they get their money from? Em, let me check.....I'll get back to you.

 

It's nice to know that you haven't wasted any of those 25 years in the industry.

[jambo lodge]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Ive given a link to Robert Macalpine’s very excellent researched book not so long ago for download, “How to Start a New Country”

Might be an idea to read it to get a better understanding of what would happen post Indy Yes vote.

 

 

We're not starting a new country though. We would be evolving from a devolved administration to an independent country. Biggest problem in that is this 10 year plus administration has been super reluctant to use existing powers to make a difference. What could happen post an Indy Yes vote does not stack up with what has happened over the last 10 years when the SNP has at best held the status quo. 

[Doogz]

40 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

You're not going to make detailed estimates about it, even though you claim, as a lowly IT monkey, to have all the historic data that points to the UK being the most important thing in the history of the financial sector in Scotland? 

 

You're not going to make detailed estimates about it even though you are claiming to be in a position to do so?

Very good effort at ignoring what Ive said once again:

I'm going to estimate that Financial Services in Scotland will drop by 15.7% one year, then 16.4% the next- 

I am saying that every indication is that there will be a significant drop based on information that us readily available to all including "lowly IT monkeys"

[Sraman]

3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Which was exactly the same with the 2014 - and by the sounds of it the new - independence prospectus. We were to retain full access to all BBC Services (unlike anywhere else), full access to the UK Energy market (so that consumers in Stoke and Swansea would still subsidise Scottish green energy development - unlike anywhere else), share a currency with a full say on how it was set (not even every EU nation has full control of their shared currency), full access to the UK consular service, shared use of the welfare state's infrastructure... the situation was identical to saying we want to have the full benefits of EU membership from outside the EU. These things can't happen. Cake cannot be had and eaten.

 

 

Agreed. 

 

 

Indeed. But as Brexit shows that is not the way of things. Do you honestly think that after years of the SNP telling us they "do not trust Westminster" that they will suddenly be able to trust them to agree a settlement? I do not in the slightest think they do. 

 

The one thing we miss in these issues is that the interests and needs of two newly separate entities are different from the mutual ones that existed before. Brexit again offers a parallel - the EU no longer needs to wory about the British economy as a priority. So any deal struck - in their view - is solely to the EU economy's benefit first. Scotland's interests evaporate to any UK government minutes after a yes vote. 

 

Whilst your sentiment is well placed it ignores reality. To paraphrase what Osbourne said in the 2014 debate on currency union, it may well benefit Scotland but I need to explain to voters in the rest of the UK why I should force them to incur the liabilities of an independent Scotland that has chosen to leave the UK.

 

 

So all the things we created together as a Union are off limits when split time comes, because?

 

The rUK would still be able to use Scotland's green credentials to offset their fines for them not meeting their specified targets seems like a fair trade to me, or we could just let Stoke and Swansea pay for it because London won't. Share a currency, like we already do? Quite happy to take our share to the B of E and get them to make good on their promise if "Billy nae Bollocks" starts any crap. It wouldn't really hurt us would it? Everything that has UK in front of it we are part owners/part establishers/partners.

 

Not identical to Brexit. Similar, yes. Identical, far from it. There are no Johnny Foreigners involved for one (that should keep the hordes happy, not.), there is only a single currency, most of both populations  inhabit the same island, we (Scotland) don't have all the necessary systems in place, yet. We didn't want to eat our cake, we were just looking for access to OUR share of the cake.

 

As Brexit shows, the Unionists have no bollocks so it would be silly of them to try and start with that stance once again. 

 

Brexit and the similarities or otherwise:

 

Brexit finances: You've got yours, we've got ours and we all put into a separate pot on the side.

 

UK finances: We've got yours, we've got ours and there is no separate pot.

 

The main political concern on here seems to be that of Money. There's your similarity shot right out the water with a simple explanation. That simple explanation also highlights why it would be silly of billy to whip his non existent bollocks out at every opportunity. There is only one pot to go round all of us. If Billy slaps Jock on the Puss Billy feels it as well.

 

It doesn't ignore reality. It ignores childish nonsense. If you're saying childish nonsense is the reality then, wouldn't you agree, it's high time we were out of it.

 

 

[Sraman]

Just now, Doogz said:

Very good effort at ignoring what Ive said once again:

I'm going to estimate that Financial Services in Scotland will drop by 15.7% one year, then 16.4% the next- 

I am saying that every indication is that there will be a significant drop based on information that us readily available to all including "lowly IT monkeys"

 

 

Very good. All before Independence has happened. Yay Brexit.

 

I haven't ignored what you said. I have given perfectly logical replies to all the points you have highlighted. They have been so perfect you have had to resort to the use of "facts and figures", well, they can't really be called facts can they? Let's just stick with "figures" then. You're just as bad as the politicians.

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, jambo lodge said:

We're not starting a new country though. We would be evolving from a devolved administration to an independent country. Biggest problem in that is this 10 year plus administration has been super reluctant to use existing powers to make a difference. What could happen post an Indy Yes vote does not stack up with what has happened over the last 10 years when the SNP has at best held the status quo. 

 

You're just wrong about that for two fundamental reasons;

 

1) Devolved powers are no way comparable to full autonomy, especially when many powers that are now devolved have come through a trickle approach over many years. 

 

2) The classic but basic error of assuming an independent Scotland will look like a SNP Scotland. For all you know, Ruth Davidson could be the first Scottish Prime Minister or whatever. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by AlphonseCapone

[JamboX2]

25 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

So all the things we created together as a Union are off limits when split time comes, because?

 

The rUK would still be able to use Scotland's green credentials to offset their fines for them not meeting their specified targets seems like a fair trade to me, or we could just let Stoke and Swansea pay for it because London won't. Share a currency, like we already do? Quite happy to take our share to the B of E and get them to make good on their promise if "Billy nae Bollocks" starts any crap. It wouldn't really hurt us would it? Everything that has UK in front of it we are part owners/part establishers/partners.

 

Not identical to Brexit. Similar, yes. Identical, far from it. There are no Johnny Foreigners involved for one (that should keep the hordes happy, not.), there is only a single currency, most of both populations  inhabit the same island, we (Scotland) don't have all the necessary systems in place, yet. We didn't want to eat our cake, we were just looking for access to OUR share of the cake.

 

As Brexit shows, the Unionists have no bollocks so it would be silly of them to try and start with that stance once again. 

 

Brexit and the similarities or otherwise:

 

Brexit finances: You've got yours, we've got ours and we all put into a separate pot on the side.

 

UK finances: We've got yours, we've got ours and there is no separate pot.

 

The main political concern on here seems to be that of Money. There's your similarity shot right out the water with a simple explanation. That simple explanation also highlights why it would be silly of billy to whip his non existent bollocks out at every opportunity. There is only one pot to go round all of us. If Billy slaps Jock on the Puss Billy feels it as well.

 

It doesn't ignore reality. It ignores childish nonsense. If you're saying childish nonsense is the reality then, wouldn't you agree, it's high time we were out of it.

 

 

 

All of this is a mirror to Brexit. Your point on what hurts jock hurts billy is exactly like Mogg saying a bad deal hurts Europe. It does but the shock is felt more by the smaller economy.

 

You also lose rights to things you've built as part of club. See Britain and the EU bodies leaving or the Galileo satellite network we helped build. You must be in a club to receive benefits from it.

 

The growth commission seems to be pretty level headed fwiw and has shed much of the New Jerusalem rhetoric of the White Paper. It's even acknowledged quite a few downsides...

Edited May 25, 2018 by JamboX2

[jambo lodge]

5 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

You're just wrong about that for two fundamental reasons;

 

1) Devolved powers are no way comparable to full autonomy, especially when many powers that are now devolved have come through a trickle approach over many years. 

 

2) The classic but basic error of assuming an independent Scotland will look like a SNP Scotland. For all you know, Ruth Davidson could be the first Scottish Prime Minister or whatever. 

Disagree. The likelihood of any vote yes would result in an SNP government....again. If they haven't used existing tax powers then why would we expect them to use them in a new situation.

[Sraman]

Just now, JamboX2 said:

 

All of this is a mirror to Brexit. You're point on what hurts jock hurts billy is exactly like Mogg saying a bad deal hurts Europe. It does but the shock is felt more by the smaller economy.

 

You also lose rights to things you've built as part of club. See Britain and the EU bodies leaving or the Galileo satellite network we helped build. You must be in a club to receive benefits from it.

 

The growth commission seems to be pretty level headed fwiw and has shed much of the New Jerusalem rhetoric of the White Paper. It's even acknowledged quite a few downsides...

 

 

The White Paper? That thing that was full of the kind of "Facts and Figures" I've been busy dismissing as folly?

 

You lose rights to things you have built as a club if you are not prepared to maintain your share of the payments to enable the continuation of the program. If we take on your part of the burden we take your part of the benefits.

 

I haven't promised a New Jerusalem, I have only been trying to dispel the notion of this living hell painted by our resident economists. I mean, how could our financial service sector possibly fail if we have our own fishing rights to bargain with? They were good enough to secure stability for the whole of the UK financial sector. You never know an Independent Scotland might be in line for some change back as well.

 

There is only one Economy with four separate entities sharing it. I don't have anything against Northern Ireland (or Wales?) but if the "facts and figures" suggest that they are going to suffer most let me be the first to apologise for that on behalf of the rUK.

[Roxy Hearts]

32 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Disagree. The likelihood of any vote yes would result in an SNP government....again. If they haven't used existing tax powers then why would we expect them to use them in a new situation.

There would be a Scottish general election and probably no SNP or at least a watered down version. 

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

There would be a Scottish general election and probably no SNP or at least a watered down version. 

Correct, they are a vehicle to gain indy. After that I think the party will splinter and probably end up similar to UKIP has in that they folded after they got what they wanted.

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

Who was saying that oil and gas was finished in the North Sea about 6 months ago? 

 

Cmon out wherever you are deeside me old mucker.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-44224377

 

 

There has always been more oil but doesn't suit the narrative. Can't have a successful Scotland unless it's of Westminster's making. There's billions of pounds of oil. 

[Pans Jambo]

5 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Which was exactly the same with the 2014 - and by the sounds of it the new - independence prospectus. We were to retain full access to all BBC Services (unlike anywhere else), full access to the UK Energy market (so that consumers in Stoke and Swansea would still subsidise Scottish green energy development - unlike anywhere else), share a currency with a full say on how it was set (not even every EU nation has full control of their shared currency), full access to the UK consular service, shared use of the welfare state's infrastructure... the situation was identical to saying we want to have the full benefits of EU membership from outside the EU. These things can't happen. Cake cannot be had and eaten.

 

 

Agreed. 

 

 

Indeed. But as Brexit shows that is not the way of things. Do you honestly think that after years of the SNP telling us they "do not trust Westminster" that they will suddenly be able to trust them to agree a settlement? I do not in the slightest think they do. 

 

The one thing we miss in these issues is that the interests and needs of two newly separate entities are different from the mutual ones that existed before. Brexit again offers a parallel - the EU no longer needs to wory about the British economy as a priority. So any deal struck - in their view - is solely to the EU economy's benefit first. Scotland's interests evaporate to any UK government minutes after a yes vote. 

 

Whilst your sentiment is well placed it ignores reality. To paraphrase what Osbourne said in the 2014 debate on currency union, it may well benefit Scotland but I need to explain to voters in the rest of the UK why I should force them to incur the liabilities of an independent Scotland that has chosen to leave the UK.

 

That was with a 'currency union'. I dont think the SNP will look for that. More like an 'informal' arrangement.

 

So Osbourne can sook on it!

[AlphonseCapone]

41 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Disagree. The likelihood of any vote yes would result in an SNP government....again. If they haven't used existing tax powers then why would we expect them to use them in a new situation.

 

I don't know, we can speculate till the cows come home about the result of the first election. 

 

The SNP have used the tax powers though, not remember the headlines going on about how Scotland is the most taxed part of the UK now. They didn't go far enough imo but given the fall out from a modest change, I can understand why politically they wouldn't touch it. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by AlphonseCapone

[JackLadd]

Part of me says bring on their ref2. Another couple of years of division, rancour and them digging in their heels on Brexit while sending out moonbeams that bear little scrutiny and then a vote they won't accept anyway. What's not to like? I want to see all the Yes expats come back and renounce their British passports if they ever get their way. Put their assets into Sturgeon's new currency and collect whatever pension she can muster when they hit 67. 

[Hasselhoff]

Growth Commission uses and acknowledges GERS throughout. As No voters have always argued, it is a starting point for an independent Scotland and up to the SNP to say how they make it work. 

 

Their document is more realistic than the previous White Paper and so that should be commended. At least they recognise the problems independence would cause rather than just the opportunities we could use it for. 

 

 

[Doogz]

1 hour ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Very good. All before Independence has happened. Yay Brexit.

 

I haven't ignored what you said. I have given perfectly logical replies to all the points you have highlighted. They have been so perfect you have had to resort to the use of "facts and figures", well, they can't really be called facts can they? Let's just stick with "figures" then. You're just as bad as the politicians.

Your "logic" appears to be we can't plan for anything as it hasn't happened yet - what I am saying is lets use the best facts and figures currently available to try a figure out what the most likely scenarios will be so we can firstly make an informed decision and should we go ahead with Indy we will be prepared to mitigate for this - I don't think it's that challenging a concept but you seem to be struggling with it so let me give you an everday example-

Your car is in for it's MOT, it passes but the mechanic advises that there all 4 tyres will likely need to be replaced at the next MOT - do you just ignore this advices as it hasn't happened yet or do accept his advice and budget for this expense as it is likely to happen?

[Doogz]

12 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

Growth Commission uses and acknowledges GERS throughout. As No voters have always argued, it is a starting point for an independent Scotland and up to the SNP to say how they make it work. 

 

Their document is more realistic than the previous White Paper and so that should be commended. At least they recognise the problems independence would cause rather than just the opportunities we could use it for. 

I'll need to take a look at this when I have time - but if it's as you say and at least acknowledges the challenges as well as the possible advantages then it sounds like an excellent starting point for the detailed discussion and debate that needs to happen for the electorate to be able to make an informed choice.