Our First Minister

[JamboX2]

I presume you can substantiate these comments and refute polling evidence to the contrary. Nicola is the most popular person in Scotland by a considerable margin. Ruth not quoted. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/11/01/nicola-sturgeon-scotlands-most-popular-person/ Nicola is also the most popular politician in the U.K. Not bad for somebody who wants to break up the country. Again Ruth not quoted. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13211668.Poll_shows_Sturgeon_is_now_the_most_popular_politician_across_Britain/

 

Ruth told us a No vote would prevent us having to the EU as the Tories would not win the election and that there would not be a referendum. Is this what you mean by intellectually agile?

For shrill see Dugdale and as for personable it's a matter of opinion and opinion says Nicola is No1 in Scotland.

 

Perhaps you should stop the personal attacks in this form and stick to the Wee nippy, Jimmy Krankie insults that we all find so funny.

After three referendums, can I just say, the idea anyone should take the promises made during them as cast iron guarantees on the future and the outcomes of their aims is mad.

 

I'm actually done with referenda. We live in a representative democracy and the politicians we elect should make decisions on the major issues. Popular opinion is important and democracy is vital but there's a slippery slope to knee jerk, reactionary populism via referendums.

[Thaw]

In desperate territory now.

 

If Scotland had been told two years ago that it was voting yes or no to stay in a UK that was definitely withdrawing from the EU, the result would certainly have been different. Not a shadow of doubt. Why anyone would be in denial about this is a mystery.

 

Whenever Better Together raised doubts about an independent Scotland being allowed to join the EU, the response from the Yes camp was usually 'oh yes we will' followed by 'if anyone takes out of the EU, it'll be the Tories'.

 

In other words, the country as a whole voted No in the full knowledge that Brexit was a possibility (the UK wasn't 'definitely withdrawing' two years ago).

[Space Mackerel]

He just wanted to let everyone know he is not a political person.

Before starting out on a very political anti SNP rant.

I would be more concerned with the missing Cameron, Osbourne, Boris, Farage and Gove to name a few.

 

Hey ho though. Pound taking another hammering in Asia around now. Guess it's Sturgeons fault [emoji23]

[leginten]

Whenever Better Together raised doubts about an independent Scotland being allowed to join the EU, the response from the Yes camp was usually 'oh yes we will' followed by 'if anyone takes out of the EU, it'll be the Tories'.

 

In other words, the country as a whole voted No in the full knowledge that Brexit was a possibility (the UK wasn't 'definitely withdrawing' two years ago).

There is cross-party support at Holyrood for remaining in the EU, and similarly there is cross-party revulsion at the europhobic rhetoric espoused by many Brexit politicians and voters. The chances of the No campaign being able to wheel out major europhile figures such as everyone's favourite son of the manse (sadly conspicuous by his silence since Thursday's disaster) to revive a flagging campaign and assure Scottish voters that their only guarantee of staying in the EU was to vote No would have been zero. The whole No campaign would have been fatally damaged.

 

Again, I'm not sure how it's possible to reach a different conclusion on this. Scotland is for the EU by a very substantial majority. Anyone who claims that the proportion of this majority that voted No would have done so if they'd known we would withdraw from the EU (which at the time seemed only the most vague of possibilities) is in incredibly dodgy territory.

[Thunderstruck]

After three referendums, can I just say, the idea anyone should take the promises made during them as cast iron guarantees on the future and the outcomes of their aims is mad.

 

I'm actually done with referenda. We live in a representative democracy and the politicians we elect should make decisions on the major issues. Popular opinion is important and democracy is vital but there's a slippery slope to knee jerk, reactionary populism via referendums.

You might enjoy reading the Robert Harris piece in the Sunday Times. Sorry I can't link as there is a pay-wall.

 

He sees referendums as vicious, divisive and deadly to parliamentary government due to the distillation of complex issues into a simple "yes/no" questions.

[davemclaren]

After three referendums, can I just say, the idea anyone should take the promises made during them as cast iron guarantees on the future and the outcomes of their aims is mad.

I'm actually done with referenda. We live in a representative democracy and the politicians we elect should make decisions on the major issues. Popular opinion is important and democracy is vital but there's a slippery slope to knee jerk, reactionary populism via referendums.

I'm no fan of referenda either for exactly the same reasons but how else could any small 'nation' get its independence as part of a bigger state where it could never command a parliamentary majority.

[Thaw]

There is cross-party support at Holyrood for remaining in the EU, and similarly there is cross-party revulsion at the europhobic rhetoric espoused by many Brexit politicians and voters. The chances of the No campaign being able to wheel out major europhile figures such as everyone's favourite son of the manse (sadly conspicuous by his silence since Thursday's disaster) to revive a flagging campaign and assure Scottish voters that their only guarantee of staying in the EU was to vote No would have been zero. The whole No campaign would have been fatally damaged.

 

Again, I'm not sure how it's possible to reach a different conclusion on this. Scotland is for the EU by a very substantial majority. Anyone who claims that the proportion of this majority that voted No would have done so if they'd known we would withdraw from the EU (which at the time seemed only the most vague of possibilites) is in incredibly dodgy territory.

 

What if Scotland does get independence and Spain exercises its veto to keep us out? What if the worst economic forecasts for an independent Scotland come true? Do we get to re-apply to the UK?

 

I'd argue that Sturgeon, in failing to use her powers to halt the decline of public services here, has contributed to Brexit by perpetuating a situation which many blame on immigrants. 1million people in Scotland voted leave, not an insignificant number.

[redm]

I'm not what could be described as a political person. I'm generally across the bigger issues through watching the news etc. However I generally don't get into chats about politics.

 

At the moment though I'm getting so wound up with Nicola Sturgeon. We have the government of the UK in disarray with a resigned Prime Minister, the opposition party falling apart at a time when the country as a whole is entering a huge period of change and uncertainty, this is a time for strong leadership not this complete carnage.

 

In Scotland we're fortunate enough to have a devolved parliament and and overwhelmingly elected party running us. Or at least that's what they should be doing. Instead our leader is back on the campaign trail for another independence referendum another 15 million pound spend and a year spent campaigning instead of leading us through this cluster**** created by the latest referendum. So we've had indy ref a general election and an eu ref and this so called leader is attempting to lunch us into another device debate.

 

Lots of people who voted no also voted SNP because they thought they were the strongest party to lead Scotland, not to throw us into another indy ref.

 

So Nicola please get on with your job or step aside and let someone who is prepared to lead us do your job!

I don't get this argument. She is doing her job. This is exactly what she's supposed to do, and it's what she was elected to do.

 

She's the only leader in the UK at the moment, and I like her anyway but feel particularly lucky to have her right now.

 

It's amazing how a referendum campaign causes concern but the time and huge cost associated with extracting the UK from the EU doesn't seem to worry people half as much.

[leginten]

What if Scotland does get independence and Spain exercises its veto to keep us out? What if the worst economic forecasts for an independent Scotland come true? Do we get to re-apply to the UK?

 

I'd argue that Sturgeon, in failing to use her powers to halt the decline of public services here, has contributed to Brexit by perpetuating a situation which many blame on immigrants. 1million people in Scotland voted leave, not an insignificant number.

I haven't seen any anti-immigrant rhetoric here. Have you?

 

One million voters is not an insignificant number. But - by any measurement you care to use - it is a very clear minority of those who voted.

 

I'm not speculating about the future here, and I've already said on another thread that I don't know if I would vote Yes in a second indyref called at this time. As for Spain, it might be best employed dealing with its internal problems. I can just imagine the outcry from Unionists if another EU member was agitating for Scottish independence. My point here is to take issue with the ridiculous claim that being assured that a No vote was the only way to ensure Scotland's continuing position within the EU had no effect on the result in 2014.

[luckyBatistuta]

I don't get this argument. She is doing her job. This is exactly what she's supposed to do, and it's what she was elected to do.

She's the only leader in the UK at the moment, and I like her anyway but feel particularly lucky to have her right now.

It's amazing how a referendum campaign causes concern but the time and huge cost associated with extracting the UK from the EU doesn't seem to worry people half as much.

Not doing her job properly at the moment. Going around telling anyone that will listen, that the people of Scotland voted for Scotland to stay in the EU...no they didn't. She's twisting things, just to push for another Indy/ref, which she will lose.

[Caspian Primrose]

Nah folk who are saying she's doing her job aren't getting it.

 

She has her priorities all wrong. Yes, pushing for Independence is what she's all about but it's the very last, rock bottom of the list thing she should be pursuing right now. Another referendum is the last thing Scotland needs just now. You're an idiot if you can't see that. I voted yes btw.

[coconut doug]

After three referendums, can I just say, the idea anyone should take the promises made during them as cast iron guarantees on the future and the outcomes of their aims is mad.

 

I'm actually done with referenda. We live in a representative democracy and the politicians we elect should make decisions on the major issues. Popular opinion is important and democracy is vital but there's a slippery slope to knee jerk, reactionary populism via referendums.

Seems you don't like my criticism of Ruth Davidson.  You seem to be saying that although politicians tell lies or get things wrong and the gullible public believe them, we should not have referenda. Maybe it/s politicians we should get rid of and allow people to make decisions. Do you think politicians only tell lies during referenda and can be trusted to make good judgements at other times? Imagine if we had a referendum on whether or not to enter the Iraq war. Reactionary politicians were responsible for a million dead and countless lives ruined.

[jake]

In desperate territory now.

 

If Scotland had been told two years ago that it was voting yes or no to staying in a UK that was definitely withdrawing from the EU, the result would certainly have been different. Not a shadow of doubt. Why anyone would be in denial about this is a mystery.

 

Scotland was told every different scare story in the book.

Theres no denial here .

If we had a crystal ball stuff thats the point.

Ffs

[jake]

I'm no fan of referenda either for exactly the same reasons but how else could any small 'nation' get its independence as part of a bigger state where it could never command a parliamentary majority.

 

Did you vote leave?

[luckyBatistuta]

Nah folk who are saying she's doing her job aren't getting it.

She has her priorities all wrong. Yes, pushing for Independence is what she's all about but it's the very last, rock bottom of the list thing she should be pursuing right now. Another referendum is the last thing Scotland needs just now. You're an idiot if you can't see that. I voted yes btw.

Your right, but she'll go on, banging on about it, but she won't push for it right now. She knows fine well, that she will definitely lose it.

[Riddley Walker]

Let's get the feck out the UK. I've been too gutted to look at the EU threads since the referendum.

 

 

It is time.

[Rudi-Robertson]

How many Syrians has did she eventually take in?

[Bowmans_Boot]

Not doing her job properly at the moment. Going around telling anyone that will listen, that the people of Scotland voted for Scotland to stay in the EU...no they didn't. She's twisting things, just to push for another Indy/ref, which she will lose.

If 62% didn't vote to remain in the EU, what did they vote for?

[luckyBatistuta]

If 62% didn't vote to remain in the EU, what did they vote for?

They voted for the 'UK' to remain in the EU.

[Bowmans_Boot]

They voted for the 'UK' to remain in the EU.

OK, fair enough. I don't fully agree, though.

[luckyBatistuta]

How many Syrians has did she eventually take in?

No room yet, as they're still trying to figure out how to dismantle Peter's train set.

[davemclaren]

Did you vote leave?

No, why?

[luckyBatistuta]

OK, fair enough. I don't fully agree, though.

In what way?

 

The referendum was whether the 'U.K.' should remain in the EU...not Scotland. The reason Nicola doesn't want an Indyref and us to join the EU asap, as an independent Scotland, is because she knows that she won't get that same figure again...No Chance. I was a Yes voter and so were a lot of family and friends and pretty much every one of them will vote No if she goes for it.

[jake]

No, why?

 

Did you vote yes?

[jake]

Let's get the feck out the UK. I've been too gutted to look at the EU threads since the referendum.

 

 

It is time.

 

Is there any part of you Ridley that thought fekin yes that it was working class vote that sh?ok the place up?

[jake]

They voted for the 'UK' to remain in the EU.

 

Bottom line actually

[Thaw]

I haven't seen any anti-immigrant rhetoric here. Have you?

 

One million voters is not an insignificant number. But - by any measurement you care to use - it is a very clear minority of those who voted.

 

I'm not speculating about the future here, and I've already said on another thread that I don't know if I would vote Yes in a second indyref called at this time. As for Spain, it might be best employed dealing with its internal problems. I can just imagine the outcry from Unionists if another EU member was agitating for Scottish independence. My point here is to take issue with the ridiculous claim that being assured that a No vote was the only way to ensure Scotland's continuing position within the EU had no effect on the result in 2014.

 

For real? I work in council housing and it is absolutely routine to hear people blaming foreigners for the fact that they can't get what they want.

 

I'd suggest the reason this referendum went differently from the last one is that this time, old people who thought the world was perfect in the 1950s and want to go back there, and poor people who want someone, anyone to blame (whether that be Westminster or immigration) were both pointing in the same direction.

[3fingersreid]

Let's get the feck out the UK. I've been too gutted to look at the EU threads since the referendum.

 

 

It is time.

Currency , what would we use ?

Kind of important to know don't you think ?

[Sarah O]

Sturgeon is an outstanding politician and the dissary in politics just now only highlights this.

 

 

The SNP have been truly blessed with some brilliant members. Big Jambo Eck, Sturge the babe and surely future leader of the country: young Mhari Black.

 

 

What a time to be alive.

[Riddley Walker]

Is there any part of you Ridley that thought fekin yes that it was working class vote that sh?ok the place up?

I'm all for getting one over on the establishment but this wasn't the right thing. As I and many others predicted, the English working classes were lied to and duped into voting for leave.

[Riddley Walker]

In what way?

 

The referendum was whether the 'U.K.' should remain in the EU...not Scotland. The reason Nicola doesn't want an Indyref and us to join the EU asap, as an independent Scotland, is because she knows that she won't get that same figure again...No Chance. I was a Yes voter and so were a lot of family and friends and pretty much every one of them will vote No if she goes for it.

Why would you change to no? Everyone I know who voted yes still will and everyone who voted no would now vote yes.

[Riddley Walker]

Currency , what would we use ?

Kind of important to know don't you think ?

I've still got a shiteload of Pogs in my gran's attic.

[scott herbertson]

I'm all for getting one over on the establishment but this wasn't the right thing. As I and many others predicted, the English working classes were lied to and duped into voting for leave.

 

 

What like being told there would be an emergency austerity budget by Osbourne

 

(he's just responded to a question on this saying he's not going to do anything hasty, in fact not till after section 50 negs completed 'by the new prime minister' - a bare-faced lie it seems)

[Riddley Walker]

What like being told there would be an emergency austerity budget by Osbourne

 

(he's just responded to a question on this saying he's not going to do anything hasty, in fact not till after section 50 negs completed 'by the new prime minister' - a bare-faced lie it seems)

Yes, he's a lying shitebag as well. I would never base my opinion on what any of them say.

 

However, the leavers were promised reduced immigration and re-directed funds. This will never happen. People will realise that the promises of change were just bullshit made up by nationalists to get people on their side.

 

Anyone that listens to what any if these idiots say and bases their opinion on it are off their head.

[JamboX2]

I'm no fan of referenda either for exactly the same reasons but how else could any small 'nation' get its independence as part of a bigger state where it could never command a parliamentary majority.

By winning a clear majority of the seats to Westminster on a ticket if independence. Then begin to negotiate for independence.

[JamboX2]

Seems you don't like my criticism of Ruth Davidson. You seem to be saying that although politicians tell lies or get things wrong and the gullible public believe them, we should not have referenda. Maybe it/s politicians we should get rid of and allow people to make decisions. Do you think politicians only tell lies during referenda and can be trusted to make good judgements at other times? Imagine if we had a referendum on whether or not to enter the Iraq war. Reactionary politicians were responsible for a million dead and countless lives ruined.

To answer the question there, No. To pad it out, if you don't like the decisions made by politicians you vote them out at the next election.

 

There was an article in the independent not all that long ago and it listed all the things which we'd likely have if we had listened to populist ideas based on polling data, hanging, forced repatriation, leaving the EU (happened) and in one instance no repeal in Scotland of s.28. Frankly, sometimes we need politician to not make decisions people want.

[3fingersreid]

I've still got a shiteload of Pogs in my gran's attic.

Well you'll be ****in minted lol

[AlphonseCapone]

See if you voted SNP and are complaining about another potential independence referendum then you are a moron.

 

It was in their manifesto if there was a material change, there has been.

 

It is their whole reason for existence.

[Sidelight]

Let's get the feck out the UK. I've been too gutted to look at the EU threads since the referendum.

 

 

It is time.

 

 

It?s time to discuss reality and not the rhetoric.

Here we have Sturgeon and her party campaigning for an independent Scotland within the EU.

If that?s not a contradiction in terms then I don?t know what is.

There are No Independent Nations within the EU.

That?s why the informed British people have just voted to exit.

Nations much larger than us are held and squeezed by a non translucent dictatorial unelected EU Commission and Council. And you want to join them!

Scotland independent within Europe-

Miss Sturgeon is either blind to the truth or just another weaver of tales.

 

[michael_bolton]

What is getting tiresome is people expressing faux-outrage at politicians doing what they said they would do.

 

Sturgeon is simply responding to a change in circumstances. Scotland voted to stay in Europe (and in the process showed itself to be more committed to the EU than to the UK) and Sturgeon is now doing what she can to have that wish adhered to.

 

Only someone utterly blinded by political prejudice could have a problem with that.

 

Worth pointing out that one of the No campaigns big arguments in 2014 was that an independent Scotland wouldn't have been able to join the EU. Therefore, it's safe to say that some people voted No due to a desire to stay in the EU. Otherwise all the focus groups etc wouldn't have led No to focus on that. In this referendum, people have voted Remain by a much bigger margin, even though the world and its dug knew that this would result in a renewed push for another referendum.

 

It's quite clear that Scotland is more attached to the EU than the UK. Our elected leader pursuing this is what you'd expect her to do.

[Riddley Walker]

If you think that being part of the UK and the EU are in any way comparable there is genuinely no point in further discussion.

[Sidelight]

If you think that being part of the UK and the EU are in any way comparable there is genuinely no point in further discussion.

 

Nations much larger than us are held and squeezed by a non translucent dictatorial unelected EU Commission and Council.

 

And you want to join them!

[Riddley Walker]

Nations much larger than us are held and squeezed by a non translucent dictatorial unelected EU Commission and Council.

 

And you want to join them!

No they are not.

 

They are elected.

[Riddley Walker]

Do people that think the EU is undemocratic just not check things for themselves or something? It's symptomatic of the level of debate in that farce.

 

Look it up yourself, stop reading and believing The Daily Mail and UKIP leaflets.

[Sidelight]

No they are not.

 

They are elected.

 

 

 

Did we vote for then? No.

They are in reality selected not elected.

MEP?s can?t legislate and repeal.

There is only an illusion to the democratic within the EU.

But carry on cast your vote..

I believe that Indy2 if it happens will see Scotland say Yes to the UK.

[elvoys]

To answer the question there, No. To pad it out, if you don't like the decisions made by politicians you vote them out at the next election.

 

There was an article in the independent not all that long ago and it listed all the things which we'd likely have if we had listened to populist ideas based on polling data, hanging, forced repatriation, leaving the EU (happened) and in one instance no repeal in Scotland of s.28. Frankly, sometimes we need politician to not make decisions people want.

But folks are rightly arguing that the SNP are just following what was clearly spelled out in their election manifesto.

 

Surely the exact same principle applies here with the Tories?

[michael_bolton]

But folks are rightly arguing that the SNP are just following what was clearly spelled out in their election manifesto.

 

Surely the exact same principle applies here with the Tories?

 

And?

 

I've got no problem with the referendum happening. I do have a problem with the tragically uninformed level of public debate on the issue.

[Riddley Walker]

 

Did we vote for then? No.

They are in reality selected not elected.

MEP?s can?t legislate and repeal.

There is only an illusion to the democratic within the EU.

But carry on cast your vote..

I believe that Indy2 if it happens will see Scotland say Yes to the UK.

Did you vote for the cabinet? No, they were chosen by the people we voted for. I'm fine with that.

 

The irony of the people complaining about the EU being undemocratic, while probably not even voting for their MEP, is not lost on me.

[michael_bolton]

 

Did we vote for then? No.

They are in reality selected not elected.

MEP?s can?t legislate and repeal.

There is only an illusion to the democratic within the EU.

But carry on cast your vote..

I believe that Indy2 if it happens will see Scotland say Yes to the UK.

 

 

That's a bit of an over-simplistic way of putting it.

 

Do you know how successful MEPs are in amending legislation? Do you know how successful members of national parliaments are in getting legislation even debated, never mind passed?

 

I doubt you do. Look it up.

[Sidelight]

Do people that think the EU is undemocratic just not check things for themselves or something? It's symptomatic of the level of debate in that farce.

 

Look it up yourself, stop reading and believing The Daily Mail and UKIP leaflets.

 

Facts are chiels that winna ding, to quote Robbie.

I know that we have an agenda driven spin central mainstream media that most people lap up as reality.

Highlighting our pseudo intellectual nonsense and discrimination based on the fictional perception of ones reading materials stalls the way forward.

We surely don?t need any more jumping up and down shouting I am right, just am.