136 miles of average speed cameras for A9

[yvonnejambo]

Transport Scotland and the government have decided without any public consultation that to improve safety on the A9 until it gets fully dualled in 12 years that putting over 100 average speed cameras from Dunblane to Inverness (both directions) covering 136 miles each way is the answer to improve safety.

 

Now as a person who drives it for every football match and to visit friends in Edinburgh, I can see this as only a money making plan which will make the road even less safe. The problems on the A9 are too much traffic for what it was designed for which leads to frustration and dangerous driving as people try overtake on the mostly single carriage. A large amount of HGVs which can only go 40 mph and also the fact it goes from single to small stretches of dual and if not used to road it causes confusion and leads to drivers on wrong side of road thinking they are still on dual carriageway. To me average speed cameras wont stop dangerous driving by people over taking at risky areas so the accidents will continue. It could also stop people wanting to come to the Highlands for business or pleasure as they can make people scared by having to constantly having to watch your speed.

 

I know some will disagree or brand me as some speeding driver (which I am not). this road is frustration and confusion rather than speed that cause the majority of the accidents.and we all want to try and make it safer.

 

 

Ok I know this wont have big impact on most of you but can I ask those who do use the A9 to do my survey. Even if you just use the year very occasionally.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/6HDTZCH

 

We also have a twitter page @A9noneedforASC

facebook A9 Average Speed Cameras are not the answer

email t[email protected]

and if you are pro the plan there is a facebook page A9 average speed cameras are the answer

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

If lorries are driving at 40 then you're entitled to overtake them. All the cameras do is stop you going more than 60 on single carriageway and 70 on dual carriageway. Don't see the problem (as much as it would piss me off because I speed all the time).

[Craig_]

If lorries are driving at 40 then you're entitled to overtake them. All the cameras do is stop you going more than 60 on single carriageway and 70 on dual carriageway. Don't see the problem (as much as it would piss me off because I speed all the time).

 

Thing is, it probably won't make any difference, as I don't think I've ever averaged more than 60mph going up the A9 (which I have to do fairly regularly for work up in Speyside). So as Yvonne says people will still hammer along the dual carriageway sections, then go at about 40 on the single roads.

[yvonnejambo]

At the moment HGV have been allowed to drive at 50 but with the speed cams will have to go at 40 which will slow the road up even more. As said above it would be impossible to average more than 60 down between Inverness - Perth with the amount of traffic. The point is the money should/ could be used for more vital safety improvements we have produced a 20 point plan which you can see on the fb page and I can put on here tonight if anyone interested

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

At the moment HGV have been allowed to drive at 50 but with the speed cams will have to go at 40 which will slow the road up even more. As said above it would be impossible to average more than 60 down between Inverness - Perth with the amount of traffic. The point is the money should/ could be used for more vital safety improvements we have produced a 20 point plan which you can see on the fb page and I can put on here tonight if anyone interested

 

Ah, fair point.

[Deevers]

I've driven this road regularly over the years and speed is certainly a problem along with clowns who like to take unacceptable risks overtaking two and three cars at a time. Anything that cuts the death toll can only be a good thing.

[Sarah O]

Drive it a couple of times at least up and down every month in a bus. We can go 50, as you say lorrys can only go 40 and cars... Well what ever speed they like.

 

You see some ammount of half-baked over taking manouvers on that road to save 10 minutes?

 

Bonkers.

[SUTOL]

Part (a lot) of the problem is cars sitting too close to each other, mostly with no inclination to overtake.

They then cause a longer slow moving train with less chance for following cars to overtake and pull in inbetween the cars in the train.

This then leads to frustrated multiple overtakes with not much chance of escape.

 

I don't really buy the bit about confusion between dual and single carriageway bits, as there is only one section where the carriageways are separate and even then on that section there are several places where the other carriageway is clearly visible.

I can't see a situation where a driver thinks, "oh yes 23 miles ago there was a 2 mile stretch of dual carriageway where I couldn't see the other carriageway, this must be another section like that, I'm pulling out to overtake this vehicle without looking ahead."

 

And finally, (for now) if the safety priority is though to be the single carriageway sections then why is the average speed camera section starting at Dunblane where it is dual carriageway all the way to Perth?

[Guest GhostHunter]

Thing is, it probably won't make any difference, as I don't think I've ever averaged more than 60mph going up the A9 (which I have to do fairly regularly for work up in Speyside). So as Yvonne says people will still hammer along the dual carriageway sections, then go at about 40 on the single roads.

 

That's not how the average speed cameras work.

 

The cameras are laid out in random positions - if there were 3 cameras (A,B and C) the "live" cameras could be at position A & C, or B & C, or A & B - so basically, you've no idea at which stretch you've to slow down.

[milky_26]

The main problem with the A9 imo is the stupid overtaking you see on a regular basis

[FWJ]

I drive up and down from Inverness to Perth at least once a week and I think the A9 is fine. It takes 2 hours from the Longman Roundabout (the one next to ICT's ground) to the Inveralmond Roundabout. Doesn't matter how busy or quiet it is it takes 2 hours. Sure, you might get stuck behind something doing 50mph for a couple of miles before an overtaking lane or dual carriageway but it never seems to make much difference.

The only thing that I would do is have a couple of overtaking lanes southbound between Slochd and Ralia.

 

The 3 Billion being spent on this road (which was rebuilt only 30 years ago) could transform every other long-distance rural route in Scotland. I often think of that sitting at traffic lights on the single lane section of the A82 on Loch Lomondside...

[The People's Chimp]

If lorries are driving at 40 then you're entitled to overtake them. All the cameras do is stop you going more than 60 on single carriageway and 70 on dual carriageway. Don't see the problem (as much as it would piss me off because I speed all the time).

 

The Lorries going at 40 are the biggest part of the problem...coupled with people's "right" to overtake them.

 

I drive up and down from Inverness to Perth at least once a week and I think the A9 is fine. It takes 2 hours from the Longman Roundabout (the one next to ICT's ground) to the Inveralmond Roundabout. Doesn't matter how busy or quiet it is it takes 2 hours. Sure, you might get stuck behind something doing 50mph for a couple of miles before an overtaking lane or dual carriageway but it never seems to make much difference.

The only thing that I would do is have a couple of overtaking lanes southbound between Slochd and Ralia.

 

The 3 Billion being spent on this road (which was rebuilt only 30 years ago) could transform every other long-distance rural route in Scotland. I often think of that sitting at traffic lights on the single lane section of the A82 on Loch Lomondside...

 

It's the main artery between the Central belt and the North of the country. It's a vital road, and there have been so many avoidable deaths it's frightening. You drive up and down once a week, is this during the day? I've been going up and down since I was a kid as I have relatives in Inverness and at weekends the road is pretty much tailback after tailback and people try crazy manoeuvres all the time. The A82 at Loch Lomond isn't even remotely comparable in terms of importance or danger to those using it.

[FWJ]

 

 

 

The Lorries going at 40 are the biggest part of the problem...coupled with people's "right" to overtake them.

 

 

It's the main artery between the Central belt and the North of the country. It's a vital road, and there have been so many avoidable deaths it's frightening. You drive up and down once a week, is this during the day? I've been going up and down since I was a kid as I have relatives in Inverness and at weekends the road is pretty much tailback after tailback and people try crazy manoeuvres all the time. The A82 at Loch Lomond isn't even remotely comparable in terms of importance or danger to those using it.

It's in the morning, afternoon and evening, occasionally at night. It takes 2 hours. The thing that worries me most is hitting a deer. Done that a couple of times.

 

The A82 not even remotely comparable? It's the main (only) route to the West (as opposed to North) Highlands. Fort William, Oban and Skye. The EuroRAP (road assessment programme) figures show that the A82 is more dangerous than the A9.

[The People's Chimp]

It's in the morning, afternoon and evening, occasionally at night. It takes 2 hours. The thing that worries me most is hitting a deer. Done that a couple of times.

 

The A82 not even remotely comparable? It's the main (only) route to the West (as opposed to North) Highlands. Fort William, Oban and Skye. The EuroRAP (road assessment programme) figures show that the A82 is more dangerous than the A9.

 

I don't have the stats, but I'm sure the A9 is significantly busier than the A82. I find it bizarre that you're only worried about deer tbh, must have been lucky with your experiences. You didn't mention the dangers on the a82, only the traffic lights. Now you are concerned about danger as well?

[Le Chat]

It's my prediction that sometime soon all motorways and major A roads will be covered in these cameras.

 

And it won't be for safety reasons either.

 

Chi-ching.

[SUTOL]

The main problem with the A9 imo is the stupid overtaking you see on a regular basis

 

I don't remember seeing many or indeed any stupid overtakes the last time I was on it, a couple of weeks ago.

 

But I do remember the long queues of cars behind the lorry at 40mph, with a clear straight ahead that could easily be used to safely overtake, but the lead car was either (or both) not interested in overtaking or too close to the vehicle in front to see that the road was clear.

 

 

Glad to say I didn't have any cars closing the gap between the car they were following when I overtook them though, this time.

[FWJ]

 

 

 

I don't have the stats, but I'm sure the A9 is significantly busier than the A82. I find it bizarre that you're only worried about deer tbh, must have been lucky with your experiences. You didn't mention the dangers on the a82, only the traffic lights. Now you are concerned about danger as well?

You mentioned "importance or danger". Travelling from Tarbet to Crianlarich on the A82 is rarely dangerous as you rarely travel at more than 30mph. Past Crianlarich the road is straighter but mostly still so narrow it's hairy overtaking lorries and busses. And yup, apart from that hitting deer is my main worry.

 

As far as traffic figures go the A9 is busier than the A82 but it varies by section on each road.

[moshy]

personally don't think its a busy enough road to justify spending all that money on it. as others have said its arseholes that wont overtake a wagon doing 40 that start the chain reaction ending up with a queue. fair play to most of the wagon drivers though they pull into laybys when they can.but its just a free for all when you hit a short piece of dual or overtaking lane. a lot of accidents include foreign plated vehicles also

[FWJ]

I think the other problem is so many people forget that, just as it is on every other single-carriageway road in the country, 60mph is the maximum speed limit - it's not the very minimum at which you should be travelling.

[Craig_]

That's not how the average speed cameras work.

 

The cameras are laid out in random positions - if there were 3 cameras (A,B and C) the "live" cameras could be at position A & C, or B & C, or A & B - so basically, you've no idea at which stretch you've to slow down.

 

Sneaky buggers. However, if you've been doing forty for the last half hour, you could be pretty sure a quick burst of eighty wouldn't get you caught...

[Guest GhostHunter]

Sneaky buggers. However, if you've been doing forty for the last half hour, you could be pretty sure a quick burst of eighty wouldn't get you caught...

 

No - it all depends on where the live cameras are....you could've been blasting through dud cameras points at 40mph, then hit the 2 when you're doing 80

 

I think though, by law - the Police or the Council HAVE to release the location of the live cameras - I may be wrong, but I'm sure I've seen it on a site in the past...

[FWJ]

If they're anything like the ones that were at the bottom of the M90 they're pretty easy to spot.

[SUTOL]

If they're anything like the ones that were at the bottom of the M90 they're pretty easy to spot.

 

They're not average speed cameras, they're variable speed cameras.

 

There are average speed cameras on the A77 Ayr to Stranraer.

[Deevers]

 

 

 

They're not average speed cameras, they're variable speed cameras.

 

There are average speed cameras on the A77 Ayr to Stranraer.

There were average speed cameras on the M90 for a time while the road works were going on between Rosyth and the other side of Dunfermline just short of Kelty. I believe that they did cracking business and raked in a load of money.

[FWJ]

 

 

There were average speed cameras on the M90 for a time while the road works were going on between Rosyth and the other side of Dunfermline just short of Kelty. I believe that they did cracking business and raked in a load of money.

Aye, that's the ones I meant. They look like lamp-posts but with (what look like) CCTV cameras.

[SUTOL]

There were average speed cameras on the M90 for a time while the road works were going on between Rosyth and the other side of Dunfermline just short of Kelty. I believe that they did cracking business and raked in a load of money.

 

Sorry, corrrect, I missed the "were" from FWJ's post.

 

 

But it's probably worth noting that at the South end of the M90 from Halbeith there are variable speed limit cameras, that are only active (possibly) when there is a reduced limit as shown on the gantry signs.

Same cameras on the (new) M9 slip to Newbridge as well.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Some of the worst driving I have ever seen was on the A9 5/6 years ago. Travelling by van to do a job in Nairn we were continually cut up by some sort of top of the range car with 3 guys in it. It started about Dunkeld and happened about 4 times between there and Newtonmore (car kept vanishing the appearing behind us again), it also spent ages driving on the wrong side of single carriageways. Finally pulled up behind it at temp traffic lights and a small sign on the bumper read "Police pursuit training car". If that was training there were some chances getting took there.

 

Anyone wishing to escape average speed cameras should purchase a motorbike, to the best of my knowledge the cameras are all forward facing.

 

[yvonnejambo]

I don't have a problem with use of any type of speed cameras if there is an area known to excessive speeds and accidents but really to have to drive for over 100 miles of them??? They are going to cost 2.5 million and an estimated total cost of 7.5 million to get them put in and to work. Surely that money would be better spent on chevrons on road to get people to stay at safe distance apart ( and allow over taking rather than tailgating) better signs with speed limits and reminders that on single carriageway? The most accidents are due to frustration - people over taking at dangerous areas, drivers falling asleep at wheel ( lack of places to stop for a break after Ballinluig and Bruar), tourists from foreign countries driving on wrong side of road - confusion over dual/ non dual.

 

I am so frustrated about this plan and will hate every journey down for the footy from next summer if this goes ahead. It will make the road more dangerous and stop people coming up north. The price for goods coming up is already expensive and this could lead to even further price hikes when companies know its going to take even longer to get up. We should be progressing to make the Higjlands more accessible not putting it backwards.

[yvonnejambo]

Some of the worst driving I have ever seen was on the A9 5/6 years ago. Travelling by van to do a job in Nairn we were continually cut up by some sort of top of the range car with 3 guys in it. It started about Dunkeld and happened about 4 times between there and Newtonmore (car kept vanishing the appearing behind us again), it also spent ages driving on the wrong side of single carriageways. Finally pulled up behind it at temp traffic lights and a small sign on the bumper read "Police pursuit training car". If that was training there were some chances getting took there.

 

Anyone wishing to escape average speed cameras should purchase a motorbike, to the best of my knowledge the cameras are all forward facing.

 

 

 

Seemingly these ones will be able to get motor bikes too. The problem of the bad drivers won't change cos of the speed cams they only pick up speed not stupid over taking

[stirlo]

_{I don't know if average speed cameras will have much of an effect on safety. What worries me is that the cameras are used as a justification for putting the dualling project back. It is a disgrace that the A9 was not dualled long ago and the fact is that it carries way more traffic than a single lane carriage way is designed for. Dualling the whole road from Perth to Inverness should be a top priority - its unacceptable that this won't have happened before 2025 at the earliest.}

[Paulie Walnut]

Sit back relax enjoy the scenery and stick on some Kenny G.

 

This would sort out all the problems on the A9.

[graygo]

No - it all depends on where the live cameras are....you could've been blasting through dud cameras points at 40mph, then hit the 2 when you're doing 80

 

I think though, by law - the Police or the Council HAVE to release the location of the live cameras - I may be wrong, but I'm sure I've seen it on a site in the past...

 

I'm not getting what you're saying

 

These cameras are not interested in what speed you go past them at, they know how far it is since the "entry" camera recorded you passing it and know how long it took you to get to the "exit" camera so can work out your average speed. In theory you could pass one of these cameras at 100mph but still not be classed as speeding.

 

Also, it's the local safety camera partnership that has to publicise where all cameras are, they don't have to say which ones are live.

 

Here's a link to the one that covers Edinburgh http://www.lbsafetycameras.co.uk/

 

Edit: Just re-read your post and get what you're saying now, not sure about the "live" camera part though.

[Coco]

_{I don't know if average speed cameras will have much of an effect on safety. What worries me is that the cameras are used as a justification for putting the dualling project back. It is a disgrace that the A9 was not dualled long ago and the fact is that it carries way more traffic than a single lane carriage way is designed for. Dualling the whole road from Perth to Inverness should be a top priority - its unacceptable that this won't have happened before 2025 at the earliest.}

 

The SNP agency, Transport Scotland in the last few years have decided to spend c. ?1bn in the last few years on the half tram line in Edinburgh and the (burn half the money 0.5 cost benefit ratio) Borders Railway rather than dualling the A9.

 

Personally I think that the biggest problem is that many drivers are truly stupid. Tailgaters and boy/girl racers who can't bear to be in a queue of traffic for a few minutes. Add to that the tourist drivers on that road (I know how easy it is to momentarily forget what side of the road to drive on when abroad).

[fabienleclerq]

I drive the A9 a few times a year, I'm pretty certain that the average speed cameras will reduce accidents.

 

They aren't the real answer though, if that road was dualed I reckon the amount of accidents would drop masssivley. The main problems are the bits that are duelled getting used like silver stone then people having to slam on the brakes/ merge into one lane. And long ques of nose to tail at 40/50 mph.

 

Duel the fecker is the answer.

[Big Chae]

Why not just build big ****-off passing places every 5 miles or so? Maybe a mile long.

 

Simples.

[FWJ]

_{I don't know if average speed cameras will have much of an effect on safety. What worries me is that the cameras are used as a justification for putting the dualling project back. It is a disgrace that the A9 was not dualled long ago and the fact is that it carries way more traffic than a single lane carriage way is designed for. Dualling the whole road from Perth to Inverness should be a top priority - its unacceptable that this won't have happened before 2025 at the earliest.}

 

I'm not so sure about the traffic levels - the last figures I saw the A9 south of Inverness carried barely 10k vehicles a day in the peak summer months, far fewer in the winter.

 

And why stop at Inverness? If traffic levels are being used to justify lavishing further billions on the road then it should be dualled north of Inverness - not south.

 

And let's not forget the A96 is being dualled too, also at a cost of ?3billion. That's ?6 billion on roads to Inverness. Not too shabby.

[Craig_]

The SNP agency, Transport Scotland in the last few years have decided to spend c. ?1bn in the last few years on the half tram line in Edinburgh and the (burn half the money 0.5 cost benefit ratio) Borders Railway rather than dualling the A9.

 

Personally I think that the biggest problem is that many drivers are truly stupid. Tailgaters and boy/girl racers who can't bear to be in a queue of traffic for a few minutes. Add to that the tourist drivers on that road (I know how easy it is to momentarily forget what side of the road to drive on when abroad).

 

Funny that, could've sworn the SNP were the only party against the trams, and were railroaded (sorry) by the other three parties into continuing.

[skinnybob72]

Replace the road with a very long travelator moving at 60 mph. Job done.

[Better call Saul]

I often ask myself this ...

 

Two cars

Leaving Inverness heading to edinburgh at the same time one drives like an idiot weaving in and out + having to stop for the occasional toad works etc & the other car sits at 55mph av

 

Does the idiot actually get to Edinburgh that much quicke ? ??????

 

[Coco]

Funny that, could've sworn the SNP were the only party against the trams, and were railroaded (sorry) by the other three parties into continuing.

 

It is a bit off topic - but of course the SNP could have forced a vote of confidence. But they did not. Nor did their Government agency - Transport Scotland adhere to the rules it set when dishing out the ?500m it wasted on the tram line (the line had to be on budget/cost benefit ratio above 1 etc). That will come out in the public inquiry which the SNP seem to be unwilling to have. And finally they have been in coalition in Edinburgh for most of the time when the half line has been being built. Without leaving the adminstration and actually voting for the tram line at various points.

[Blackie the Cat]

The Scottish government have blood on their hand with every single death that the A9 brings. They should hang their heads in shame that they spend over a billion on the JOKE that is the Edinburgh trams and the NOT required new Forth road bridge. These vile people that represent us have now decided to hide the fact that they want to make more money from the motorist by installing ASC along the length of the road disguised as road safety. If they really give a damn and want to make the road safer there should be dual carriageway the whole way. This should have been done years ago and would help open the Highlands up encouraging tourism and would be a great benefit to the economics of the whole area. The new cameras will have the complete opposite effect.

[davemclaren]

The cheapest way to make it safe is to put in lots of cameras and make it no overtaking in single stretches with double white lines.in the middle of the road. No need to dual it all the way then.

[Dunks]

Reduce the speed limit so everyone is at 40mph - job done

[bertracoon]

The cheapest way to make it safe is to put in lots of cameras and make it no overtaking in single stretches with double white lines.in the middle of the road. No need to dual it all the way then.

 

Which means you have to travel at 40mph the entire way to Inverness. Are we living in the 50s again?

[Dunks]

If we all drive at the same speed, there is a significant reduction in accidents.

[Davie749]

 

If we all drive at the same speed, there is a significant reduction in accidents.

 

Volvo drivers exempt.

[Ulysses]

Three billion?!?!?

 

For 80 miles of dual carriageway?!?!?

 

They CANNOT be serious.

[Sarah O]

Putting in average speed cameras is nuts.

 

We should be putting in the best speed cameras!

[davemclaren]

Which means you have to travel at 40mph the entire way to Inverness. Are we living in the 50s again?

 

Better 1 hour late than 40 years early.

 

Seriously though, does it justify doubling all the way rather than doing something to change the behaviours of drivers? ?3billion buys a lot of trams and Borders railways...

[yvonnejambo]

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/road/safety/Speed-limit-review/A9-NW-Perth-Thurso

 

Now tell me average speed cams are not only going up as a money making exercise? Seriously if it was a matter over road safety just paint more lines and put up signs. If it is to make the Highlands a more viable place to visit / work get it dualled quicker. Spending approx 7.5 million on a scheme that will have zero safety impact (more likely to cause more accidents imo) is such a waste of money. I really think I should be running the Country