136 miles of average speed cameras for A9

[yvonnejambo]

 

 

Better 1 hour late than 40 years early.

 

Seriously though, does it justify doubling all the way rather than doing something to change the behaviours of drivers? ?3billion buys a lot of trams and Borders railways...

 

 

It needs dualled up to Inverness certainly as its the only main road that joins the central belt to the Highlands. The amount of traffic build up every hour of every day shows it needs at least 2 lanes. You will see hopefully on the news tonight some of the arguments we have.

[Coco]

Better 1 hour late than 40 years early.

 

Seriously though, does it justify doubling all the way rather than doing something to change the behaviours of drivers? ?3billion buys a lot of trams and Borders railways...

 

The behaviour of drivers on the roads is incredible. Bad driving everywhere.

 

Perhaps a more visible police presence pulling over tailgaters and those who employ dangerous overtaking would be an even better cheaper alternative.

 

Then we would not need to spend money on dualling or on wasting it on ridiculous light railway schemes.

[Davie749]

 

 

 

The behaviour of drivers on the roads is incredible. Bad driving everywhere.

 

 

I'm going to disagree with this, maybe in the past there has been but in the last 5 years or so the majority of drivers have calmed down.

 

I hardly see any mad overtakes these days

[Deevers]

I'm going to disagree with this, maybe in the past there has been but in the last 5 years or so the majority of drivers have calmed down.

 

I hardly see any mad overtakes these days

Driving down that road in June from Carrbridge - saw a silly bint in a Kia decide to do a triple overtake on a single carriageway section of the road - she missed an on coming artic by the skin of her teeth. Breath taking stuff and from what I can gather from locals up there this sort of behaviour is quite common. as someone said earlier on this thread enforcement is what's needed, taking these clowns off the road.

[yvonnejambo]

 

Driving down that road in June from Carrbridge - saw a silly bint in a Kia decide to do a triple overtake on a single carriageway section of the road - she missed an on coming artic by the skin of her teeth. Breath taking stuff and from what I can gather from locals up there this sort of behaviour is quite common. as someone said earlier on this thread enforcement is what's needed, taking these clowns off the road.

 

 

Yea this an every day occurance unfortunately and can only be improved with more actual police on the road not by average speed cameras

[Das Root]

That's not how the average speed cameras work.

 

The cameras are laid out in random positions - if there were 3 cameras (A,B and C) the "live" cameras could be at position A & C, or B & C, or A & B - so basically, you've no idea at which stretch you've to slow down.

 

 

 

I believe though they can only monitor speeds per lane, so if you switch you can throw them off. However, that can only really work on short journeys depending on the full length of road monitored to determine the average speed of the car.

[FWJ]

 

The Scottish government have blood on their hand with every single death that the A9 brings. They should hang their heads in shame that they spend over a billion on the JOKE that is the Edinburgh trams and the NOT required new Forth road bridge. These vile people that represent us have now decided to hide the fact that they want to make more money from the motorist by installing ASC along the length of the road disguised as road safety. If they really give a damn and want to make the road safer there should be dual carriageway the whole way. This should have been done years ago and would help open the Highlands up encouraging tourism and would be a great benefit to the economics of the whole area. The new cameras will have the complete opposite effect.

Why just the A9? Fatal accidents happen on every road and if you look at the actual figures (try euroRAP) the A9 - along it's Perth/Inverness section - is one of the safer roads in Scotland. (Incidentally the section in Caithness is much more dangerous - but there's no talk of dualling there).

3 people have died in fatal accidents on the roads around Oban and Fort William in the last couple of weeks, does the Scottish Government have "blood on its hands" for these too?

There is little doubt that dialling the A9 would bring economic benefits for Inverness, but it has already boomed since hundreds of millions of pounds were spent completely rebuilding the A9 only 30 years ago. Perhaps that ?6 billion being spent on 180 miles of dualling the A9 and A96 could be spent transforming the infrastructure of other parts of the country - the WEST Highlands, the Borders, the South-West?

[SUTOL]

I often ask myself this ...

 

Two cars

Leaving Inverness heading to edinburgh at the same time one drives like an idiot weaving in and out + having to stop for the occasional toad works etc & the other car sits at 55mph av

 

Does the idiot actually get to Edinburgh that much quicke ? ??????

 

 

To achieve a 55mph average would require a serious pace for a lot of the trip.

Could maybe be done by giong 90+ on the motorway from Perth and the dual carriageway sections, but even managing a 90mph average on them would require topping 100mph for good while.

 

So I think your 55 ave should really be 45 average at the most.

 

 

 

Probably one of the most frustrating drivers on the A9 are the ones that dawdle along the single carriageway sections then floor it on the dual sections, then dawdle on the single sections.

[Davie749]

 

Driving down that road in June from Carrbridge - saw a silly bint in a Kia decide to do a triple overtake on a single carriageway section of the road - she missed an on coming artic by the skin of her teeth. Breath taking stuff and from what I can gather from locals up there this sort of behaviour is quite common. as someone said earlier on this thread enforcement is what's needed, taking these clowns off the road.

 

I used to based at RAF Kinloss so I've been up and down the A9 more times than I care to remember. I also work away in the Highlands fairly periodically now and still travel the road at least once or twice up and down a month. I have come across twice some horrific head ons, involving multiple cars, people motionless in the seats.

 

I've also been in my younger days been one of the mad drivers who flipped in and out the cars to save myself 10 or 15 mins but not now. Visible police enforcement is practically non existent but obviously the unmarked cars are a bit harder to spot.

 

The problem lies with the dreaded Tesco lorry chugging along at 40mph, the tourists who forget what side of the road it is, the ignorant drivers who speed up a duelled sections therefor not allowing the tailbacks to clear and poor signage and design. Recently the Scottish Office had to close a section of recently duelled road as it finished at a right turn for people coming the opposite direction.

 

HGV's are limited to 40, PLG vehicles under 4.5 tons are limited to 50 and cars are 60 mph.

 

It's not really the speed that's the killer on this road, it's the frustration that people suffer. If anything these speeds should be increased, well certainly for the vans and lorries.

 

Oh and as a footnote, just driven up the A7 from Gala today, tourist chugging along at 40 mph using heavy braking for the slightest of corners, 1 car nearly had a head on and 1 nearly lost it on a sweeping bend on overtakes all due to the ignorance of the said tourist driver. Young guy completely blas? to the events in his rear view mirror. A total arsehole of a driver.

[davemclaren]

Oh and as a footnote, just driven up the A7 from Gala today, tourist chugging along at 40 mph using heavy braking for the slightest of corners, 1 car nearly had a head on and 1 nearly lost it on a sweeping bend on overtakes all due to the ignorance of the said tourist driver. Young guy completely blas? to the events in his rear view mirror. A total arsehole of a driver.

 

I don't think 'I took a ridiculous risk with my own and others lives because I was a bit frustrated' is really a valid excuse.

[Coco]

I don't think 'I took a ridiculous risk with my own and others lives because I was a bit frustrated' is really a valid excuse.

 

40mph is plenty for most of the A7 north of Gala anyway.

 

And there are actually very few places to pull over to let queues go past.

[Davie749]

 

 

 

I don't think 'I took a ridiculous risk with my own and others lives because I was a bit frustrated' is really a valid excuse.

 

It's not one that's going to get you off a death by dangerous driving charge that's for sure, however, more than plenty seem it ok to gamble to get past a slow moving vehicle everyday, hence the high accident rates on The A9.

[Davie749]

 

 

 

40mph is plenty for most of the A7 north of Gala anyway.

 

And there are actually very few places to pull over to let queues go past.

 

Take it that's on a pedal bike? Granted there are a few sharp bends but most of it is fairly straight forward country road driving.

 

It's fair to say there's a small minority on the Uk's roads that shouldn't be near a drivers wheel, and it's not all about speed, it's hazard perception and road craft that these people lack.

[Guess The Crowd]

 

I drive up and down from Inverness to Perth at least once a week and I think the A9 is fine. It takes 2 hours from the Longman Roundabout (the one next to ICT's ground) to the Inveralmond Roundabout. Doesn't matter how busy or quiet it is it takes 2 hours. Sure, you might get stuck behind something doing 50mph for a couple of miles before an overtaking lane or dual carriageway but it never seems to make much difference.

The only thing that I would do is have a couple of overtaking lanes southbound between Slochd and Ralia.

 

The 3 Billion being spent on this road (which was rebuilt only 30 years ago) could transform every other long-distance rural route in Scotland. I often think of that sitting at traffic lights on the single lane section of the A82 on Loch Lomondside...

 

Agree with this completely.

 

The A9 is NOT a bad road. It just seems to attract appalling driving, probably - as others have said - because of the mix of single and dual carriageway. (The A96 - now that's a bad road).

 

I don't honestly know whether average speed cameras are the answer, but anything that might stop people driving like lunatics is worth a try, because that's the issue. It's all so futile as well - as you say, the journey always takes roughly the same time, regardless of how you drive.

 

[FWJ]

 

 

 

 

To achieve a 55mph average would require a serious pace for a lot of the trip.

Could maybe be done by giong 90+ on the motorway from Perth and the dual carriageway sections, but even managing a 90mph average on them would require topping 100mph for good while.

 

So I think your 55 ave should really be 45 average at the most.

 

 

 

Probably one of the most frustrating drivers on the A9 are the ones that dawdle along the single carriageway sections then floor it on the dual sections, then dawdle on the single sections.

 

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding your post - but I make the return Inverness Perth trip at least once a week and it's never taken me less than 57mph average. (I know this because I'm a bit of a sad act and set the trip recorder most times).

 

The only work I would do is a couple of southbound overtaking lanes on the 25 mile stretch between the end of the Slochd dual carriageway and the 3 lane at Ralia (which is only a couple of miles from the extended Crubenmore dual section)

[FWJ]

 

 

 

 

It's not one that's going to get you off a death by dangerous driving charge that's for sure, however, more than plenty seem it ok to gamble to get past a slow moving vehicle everyday, hence the high accident rates on The A9.

The A9 from Perth to Inverness does not have "high accident rates". The European Road Assessment Programme (euroRAP) rates roads from 1 (safest) to 5 (most dangerous). The entire length of the section from Inverness to Perth is rated '2'. Contrast this with the A82 north of Glasgow where much of the road is '3' or '4'.

 

Politicians have painted themselves into a corner with this one and the colossal amounts of money that are to be thrown at this project will put most other road projects on hold for decades.

[superjack]

The one thing that annoys me the most when driving on the A9 is when, after being stuck behind a couple of lorries for 15 miles, you then come to a dualled section or overtaking lane, and one lorry overtakes the other one to gain an extra mile per hour, but stops others from overtaking

[Davie749]

The A9 from Perth to Inverness does not have "high accident rates". The European Road Assessment Programme (euroRAP) rates roads from 1 (safest) to 5 (most dangerous). The entire length of the section from Inverness to Perth is rated '2'. Contrast this with the A82 north of Glasgow where much of the road is '3' or '4'.

 

Politicians have painted themselves into a corner with this one and the colossal amounts of money that are to be thrown at this project will put most other road projects on hold for decades.

 

As a biker, you could probably count a few of "us" in that statistic on the A82, in fact, in the Spring and Summer months, the place is hoatchin with bikes (and tourists) Takes its fair share of casualties. Picked up a guy who had leathered a give way sign at the Green Welliejunction, coming along from the Oban road, sat with him for 30 mins till the ambulance scooped him up and offski for internal injuries a few years back. GSXR 750 was a write off mind, he ended up OK.

[Davie749]

The one thing that annoys me the most when driving on the A9 is when, after being stuck behind a couple of lorries for 15 miles, you then come to a dualled section or overtaking lane, and one lorry overtakes the other one to gain an extra mile per hour, but stops others from overtaking

 

Yep, see this happen on practically every section where HGV's are present, and they are supposed to be professional drivers.

[SUTOL]

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding your post - but I make the return Inverness Perth trip at least once a week and it's never taken me less than 57mph average. (I know this because I'm a bit of a sad act and set the trip recorder most times).

 

Door to door or due you start recording your average speed when you reach 70mph on the dual carriageway?

 

To have an average speed of 57mph in 2 hours of driving, which will involve being stuck behind someone going 40mph or thereabouts probably at least once, would require you to break the speed limit somewhere, unless you just drive at night.

[FWJ]

I'm not going to drive at 60mph through Inverness and Perth, so I start recording at the Longman Roundabout.

 

It's been a long time since I've gone as slowly as 40 mph on the A9. When it does happen it's usually a tractor causing the problem, and it's never been for more than a couple of miles.

[blairdin]

I came down the A9 yesterday. The road itself isn't ideal, but the biggest problem is a minority of idiots driving it.

 

I'm all for average speed cameras on the single carriageway sections.

 

I would ban HGVs from the outside lane of the crawler lane and the shorter stretches of dual carriageway. Enforced by plod or CCTV.

[Coco]

Take it that's on a pedal bike? Granted there are a few sharp bends but most of it is fairly straight forward country road driving.

 

It's fair to say there's a small minority on the Uk's roads that shouldn't be near a drivers wheel, and it's not all about speed, it's hazard perception and road craft that these people lack.

 

How much time is trying to jump the queues (in order to avoid driving at 40mph) going to save anybody then? Gala to Gorebridge when the 40mph limits start ... about 10 minutes at absolute max. Worth the risk to others on the road?

[Davie749]

 

 

 

How much time is trying to jump the queues (in order to avoid driving at 40mph) going to save anybody then? Gala to Gorebridge when the 40mph limits start ... about 10 minutes at absolute max. Worth the risk to others on the road?

 

Granted there are only 2 or 3 overtaking zones down to Gala but 40mph all the way? Depending on the road conditions then a steady 55 is adequate.

 

Anyway, back to the A9, this has gone off topic, my fault in all honesty.

 

I'm fairly sure these static Gatso's are now linked into the ANPR system, anyone know?

[Le Chat]

Yep, see this happen on practically every section where HGV's are present, and they are supposed to be professional drivers.

 

We need to get a lot more freight on trains in this country as the amount of HGV's are just clogging up the road network.

[Thunderstruck]

Jackie Stewart's reported reply to someone boasting that he had beaten his quickest journey from Edinburgh to Glagow by 4 mins was...

 

"What did you do with the 4 minutes?"

 

The irony for the clown taking the risk and overtaking is he is usually only 4 or 5 cars ahead at the end of the A9 or by the time you get to Inveraray on A82/83.

 

[Don Dan]

Useless project and a waste of ?2m

[Gizmo]

It's a major arterial route into the North of Scotland and it should be dualled as a matter of urgency lest we end up behaving, here in the central belt, like Westminster and it's HS1 upgrade for England paid for by everyone.

 

Sure most "iffy" roads are made worse by idiots but unless you've got a way to get rid of idiot drivers en mass then you improve the road.

[Davie749]

 

 

 

We need to get a lot more freight on trains in this country as the amount of HGV's are just clogging up the road network.

 

Try driving around Germany, Switzerland and the north of Italy and tell me if the road is clogged with HGV's? There is millions of them. So much that they are banished to the inside lanes of the motorways from 7am to 7pm. Something that definitely should be brought in here with our limited road network.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Try driving around Germany, Switzerland and the north of Italy and tell me if the road is clogged with HGV's? There is millions of them. So much that they are banished to the inside lanes of the motorways from 7am to 7pm. Something that definitely should be brought in here with our limited road network.

 

They have that on the 2 laned motorways in Holland as well but the Polish and Hungarian lorries don't pay a blind bit of attention to it.

[Ulysses]

Referring back to my earlier post on the thread, can anyone please explain just how it will cost THREE BILLION QUID for 80 miles of dual carriageway?

 

 

 

[Davie749]

 

Referring back to my earlier post on the thread, can anyone please explain just how it will cost THREE BILLION QUID for 80 miles of dual carriageway?

 

 

Ever thought how much engineering it takes to carve the drainage, hardcore, Tarmac through a remote mountain range where deer outnumber the people 50 to 1? Probably would be cheaper if the original road wasn't there in the first place and they could work with a blank canvas.

[Davie749]

 

 

 

They have that on the 2 laned motorways in Holland as well but the Polish and Hungarian lorries don't pay a blind bit of attention to it.

 

The Dutchies need more cameras then!

[Ulysses]

 

 

Ever thought how much engineering it takes to carve the drainage, hardcore, Tarmac through a remote mountain range where deer outnumber the people 50 to 1? Probably would be cheaper if the original road wasn't there in the first place and they could work with a blank canvas.

 

Yes. Read through a few hundred of my posts and you'll find that thinking is something I tend to do reasonably well.

 

?37.5 million a mile is a remarkable figure. The Irish motorway programme in the last decade cost ?11 million or so a mile, but that included land acquisition payments to farmers of around ?60,000 per acre at the height of a property bubble.

 

How many people use the road?

[Davie749]

 

 

 

Yes. Read through a few hundred of my posts and you'll find that thinking is something I tend to do reasonably well.

 

?37.5 million a mile is a remarkable figure. The Irish motorway programme in the last decade cost ?11 million or so a mile, but that included land acquisition payments to farmers of around ?60,000 per acre at the height of a property bubble.

 

How many people use the road?

 

This is Scotland, even though we invented half the modern worlds engineering solutions back in the Victorian times, sadly we haven't progressed much further. Jeez, we are still trying to put 2 bits of long steel, 6 miles long, sunk into the ground, parallel to each other, through our city centre.

 

 

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Yes. Read through a few hundred of my posts and you'll find that thinking is something I tend to do reasonably well.

 

?37.5 million a mile is a remarkable figure. The Irish motorway programme in the last decade cost ?11 million or so a mile, but that included land acquisition payments to farmers of around ?60,000 per acre at the height of a property bubble.

 

How many people use the road?

 

Did the Irish tax payer fund it Uly? Or was it Europe?

[FWJ]

 

 

 

Yes. Read through a few hundred of my posts and you'll find that thinking is something I tend to do reasonably well.

 

?37.5 million a mile is a remarkable figure. The Irish motorway programme in the last decade cost ?11 million or so a mile, but that included land acquisition payments to farmers of around ?60,000 per acre at the height of a property bubble.

 

How many people use the road?

 

And the ?6 billion that is to be spent dualling the A9 and A96 works out at ?100,000 for every person that lives in Inverness.

[FWJ]

 

 

 

Yes. Read through a few hundred of my posts and you'll find that thinking is something I tend to do reasonably well.

 

?37.5 million a mile is a remarkable figure. The Irish motorway programme in the last decade cost ?11 million or so a mile, but that included land acquisition payments to farmers of around ?60,000 per acre at the height of a property bubble.

 

How many people use the road?

It's quite difficult to get traffic numbers - the last I saw there were approximately 10k a day in the section south of Inverness in the peak summer months - and around half that number in the winter.

[Thunderstruck]

The M80 from Stepps to Kilsyth cost ?320m for around 13 miles and was completed in 2011. This is around ?25m/mile and was partly an upgrade and partly brand new. It also included a new junction with M73.

 

?11/?12m extra per mile for A9 - more difficult terrain?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

How about dualling the A9 and putting average speed cameras on its entire length? It would end up paying for itself with the speeding fines.

[Taffin]

To achieve a 55mph average would require a serious pace for a lot of the trip.

Could maybe be done by giong 90+ on the motorway from Perth and the dual carriageway sections, but even managing a 90mph average on them would require topping 100mph for good while.

 

So I think your 55 ave should really be 45 average at the most.

 

 

 

Probably one of the most frustrating drivers on the A9 are the ones that dawdle along the single carriageway sections then floor it on the dual sections, then dawdle on the single sections.

 

The bit in bold is by far the biggest problem imo.

 

The amount of times I have sat behind someone doing 50 or so, waiting for a safe opportunity to pass only for them to get up to 70 at the dual carriageway is infuriating. It just leads to still being behind them, but very frustrated and more likely to end up making a risky pass to get by them. Arseholes.

[yvonnejambo]

The petition is now finally live. needs 10,000 signatures by 20th December to force a debate in Parliament. Nearly 2000 signatures since yesterday morning, so hopefully will get the target. If you are against the average speed cameras on the A9 please sign the petition and share by email, facebook, twitter, pigeon and smoke signals cheers

 

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/gettinginvolved/petitions/thereala9problem

 

 

 

[Carl Spackler]

The petition is now finally live. needs 10,000 signatures by 20th December to force a debate in Parliament. Nearly 2000 signatures since yesterday morning, so hopefully will get the target. If you are against the average speed cameras on the A9 please sign the petition and share by email, facebook, twitter, pigeon and smoke signals cheers

 

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/gettinginvolved/petitions/thereala9problem

 

Agree with that. Spend the money on Police Cars and hammer those that pull crazy overtaking manoeuvres.

[yvonnejambo]

 

 

 

Agree with that. Spend the money on Police Cars and hammer those that pull crazy overtaking manoeuvres.

 

Yes its those drivers that cause the majority of the accidents and average speed cameras wont stop them.

[Ray Gin]

Three billion?!?!?

 

For 80 miles of dual carriageway?!?!?

 

They CANNOT be serious.

 

Better than ?750 million for 8 miles of tramline.

[LeylandJambo]

All the roadworks doing that amount will take an eternity you just have to look at the mess their making of the M6 to know that.

[Tazio]

The A9 was a whole lot worse before the upgrades a few years ago. The section around Blair Atholl was always a particular joy.