Conservative gains

[Ulysses]

Let's see them admit to it. The Lib dems are irrelevant anyway.

 

If they are irrelevant, that's more to do with the "first past the post" electoral system than the party itself. At the last general election, the Liberal Democrats polled 22% across the UK. That's a lot of people who considered them relevant, including about half a million voters in Scotland.

[Das Root]

If they are irrelevant, that's more to do with the "first past the post" electoral system than the party itself. At the last general election, the Liberal Democrats polled 22% across the UK. That's a lot of people who considered them relevant, including about half a million voters in Scotland.

 

 

 

It was all the bevvy merchants voting for their ginger booze god tis all.

 

Though saying that, the way Team Brown is driving Labour into the ground they could take 2nd place next time round..........though really they'd be totally lost having to actually do something instead of sitting on the sidelines and think up zany ideas that never see the light of day while swapping leaders like their own version of X Factor.

[Ulysses]

It was all the bevvy merchants voting for their ginger booze god tis all.

 

[John Findlay]

Billco98 - spot on.

 

 

 

In a nutshell.

 

Boris

 

Every Uk Government has done this. Labour introduced the NHS and nationalised this and that industries and then did not invest in them.

 

The truth is and no government will ever admit this. We cannot afford the NHS. Taxes come nowhere near covering it's costs as it's costs are ad infitum.

 

Also our welfare state is abused to the hilt as there are to many people nowadays with the attitude of why work when the state will provide.

 

Then when you have so called experts saying there are so many in poverty because they dont have a TV and a DVD in every room then there is no chance.

 

New Labour: Pandered to Middle England. Middle England is now feeling some pain. New Labour out on their backsides.

 

Scotland should go it alone. For the simple reason we cant blame anyone but ourselves when we make mistakes.

 

 

 

John

[billco98]

 

New Labour: Pandered to Middle England. Middle England is now feeling some pain. New Labour out on their backsides.

 

Scotland should go it alone. For the simple reason we cant blame anyone but ourselves when we make mistakes.

 

John

 

I agree very much with you on that, John.

[coppercrutch]

"In 1997 Ken Clarke (to a large extent the man who deserves the credit for our long sustained period of growth) when faced with electoral meltdown he delivered a broadly neutral budget. He resisted the temptation to save Tory seats by a giveaway budget. He wasn't the man to abolish tax relief on pension funds and penalise hard working people of Britain with escalating taxes. He wasn't the man that encouraged people to borrow more and more to sustain a spending spree that inflated property prices. Brown has mortgaged the future of this country to pay for today and make himself look good and for that he deserves our utter contempt. He's now been found out - he really is the worst chancellor we've ever had.

 

Brown was bequeathed a fabulous economy - funny how he always bleats on about ten years of growth when it was 15."

 

Brilliant TC Jambo. I salute your knowledge !!

 

Billco98. I do agree with a good bit of what you say about the tories. I do not however think Labour have done anything but a poor job. Everything they have put in place makes it look like the last few years have been great. I think this will get shattered shortly as people wake up to the debt we are in as a nation and personally.

 

They will lose the election and then the Tories will inherit the mess. People will just then associate these bad times with the tories as they will be the ones in power.

 

As for independence I don't reckon we can do any better on our own. Far too many **** bags in this country IMO.

 

With a kick up our arse maybe Scotland could go it alone. At the moment however I think we are in poor shape to even think about it.

 

In conclusion Britain is in a mess. Scotland is in a mess. Most people just don't see it yet.

[Toggie88]

If they are irrelevant, that's more to do with the "first past the post" electoral system than the party itself. At the last general election, the Liberal Democrats polled 22% across the UK. That's a lot of people who considered them relevant, including about half a million voters in Scotland.

 

I agree - fptp is a terrible system.

 

What do the Lib Dems stand for though?

 

Are they left of Labour? Are they right? They won't tell you, I don't even think they know themselves.

 

The 3 main parties down South, are so similiar these days it doesn't make much difference whose in power - Labour ****ed the country up. The Tories ****ed it up even more, and then Labour ****ed it up again. The Lib Dems have sat back - they could of took advantage, and should be a much better position. The only reason they have not is because they have no good policies, no ideas and in pretty much useless.

[billco98]

"In 1997 Ken Clarke (to a large extent the man who deserves the credit for our long sustained period of growth) when faced with electoral meltdown he delivered a broadly neutral budget. He resisted the temptation to save Tory seats by a giveaway budget. He wasn't the man to abolish tax relief on pension funds and penalise hard working people of Britain with escalating taxes. He wasn't the man that encouraged people to borrow more and more to sustain a spending spree that inflated property prices. Brown has mortgaged the future of this country to pay for today and make himself look good and for that he deserves our utter contempt. He's now been found out - he really is the worst chancellor we've ever had.

 

Brown was bequeathed a fabulous economy - funny how he always bleats on about ten years of growth when it was 15."

 

Brilliant TC Jambo. I salute your knowledge !!

 

Billco98. I do agree with a good bit of what you say about the tories. I do not however think Labour have done anything but a poor job. Everything they have put in place makes it look like the last few years have been great. I think this will get shattered shortly as people wake up to the debt we are in as a nation and personally.

 

They will lose the election and then the Tories will inherit the mess. People will just then associate these bad times with the tories as they will be the ones in power.

 

As for independence I don't reckon we can do any better on our own. Far too many **** bags in this country IMO.

 

With a kick up our arse maybe Scotland could go it alone. At the moment however I think we are in poor shape to even think about it.

 

In conclusion Britain is in a mess. Scotland is in a mess. Most people just don't see it yet.

 

 

You will understand from what I have previously stated that I disagree with your premise that things are as bad as you say. I do agree that personal debt is too high. I don't think, however, that Gordon Brown can be blamed for the problem. You only need to look at the proliferation of credit cards, store cards, etc with zero interest offers and the rest which beguiled people into a false sense of personal security. Yes, I agree that is a massive problem, but it could just as easily have got out of control had the Tories been in power.

 

The question of how good or bad the government books are is obviously relevant. Brown has had the advantage of 15 years of growth in the economy with the highest level of employment since WWII. The tax intake has been based on that growth and has allowed the investment in public services to be largely funded from taxes. Yes, he has borrowed as all governments do, mostly, to maintain sustained levels of investment (or if you are a Tory, 'spending') on vital public infrastructure projects. You only need to look at France, Germany and Italy to see how well he has handled our economy.

 

As far as Ken Clarke's legacy in the form of handing over a steady ship, I have heard Gordon Brown give credit where it was due to Clarke.

 

Yes, there has been wastage in the use of public funds in the health service and other departments but the vast majority of the money invested has made and continues to make a difference. Labour governments have always got to run the gauntlet of a largely hostile and pro-Tory press who are quick to pile on the criticism of a Labour government attempting to sort the mess left by successive Tory administrations which have not invested sufficiently in public services and who indeed cut back and neglected what was left verging on the criminal. As I have said before, it is vital for this country to bring it?s strategic infrastructure up to a standard to meet the huge challenges ahead in this century. Business benefits from high quality well maintained infrastructure and suffers when things fall apart. It is imperative that the investment continues otherwise we will fail as a nation. It is as simple as that.

 

Take Germany as an example. Although their economy has been suffering over the last 10 years that has not stopped them upgrading their railways, autobahns, etc. They realise the value of sustained investment in infrastructure. The same goes for France, the Netherlands, Spain and the Scandinavian countries.

 

Of course taking part in the illegal war in Iraq was a major foreign policy disaster perpetrated by Tony Blair who was backed to the hilt by the Tories. Yes, Gordon Brown signed the cheques but he was in an impossible position.

 

Had he been Prime minister I am absolutely certain he would not have gone down that road.

 

Much of what Gordon Brown is doing is for the long term benefit of this country. It is dry and to the average punter these days, boring stuff. They say he has no charisma; so what?. I read somewhere someone suggesting that to improve his image he needs to get involved in a personal scandal. Unfortunately most of the people in the UK are hooked on the personality, celebrity and soap opera culture that is prevalent today. The irresponsible media are have main-lining on this stuff since Brown took over as PM. I even heard Frederick Forsyth (died in the wool Tory bum licker) say that Brown and porridge go well together ?they are both thick and come from Scotland? to much loud hilarity from the home counties ?Any Questions? audience. Oh, dear.

[coppercrutch]

You will understand from what I have previously stated that I disagree with your premise that things are as bad as you say. I do agree that personal debt is too high. (1)I don't think, however, that Gordon Brown can be blamed for the problem. You only need to look at the proliferation of credit cards, store cards, etc with zero interest offers and the rest which beguiled people into a false sense of personal security. Yes, I agree that is a massive problem, but it could just as easily have got out of control had the Tories been in power.

 

The question of how good or bad the government books are is obviously relevant. Brown has had the advantage of 15 years of growth in the economy with the highest level of employment since WWII. The tax intake has been based on that growth and has allowed the investment in public services to be (2) largely funded from taxes. Yes, he has borrowed as all governments do, mostly, to maintain sustained levels of investment (or if you are a Tory, 'spending') on vital public infrastructure projects. You only need to look at France, Germany and Italy to see how well he has handled our economy.

 

As far as Ken Clarke's legacy in the form of handing over a steady ship, I have heard Gordon Brown give credit where it was due to Clarke.

 

Yes, there has been wastage in the use of public funds in the health service and other departments but the vast majority of the money invested has made and continues to make a difference. Labour governments have always got to run the gauntlet of a largely hostile and pro-Tory press who are quick to pile on the criticism of a Labour government attempting to sort the mess left by successive Tory administrations which have not invested sufficiently in public services and who indeed cut back and neglected what was left verging on the criminal. As I have said before, it is vital for this country (3)to bring it?s strategic infrastructure up to a standard to meet the huge challenges ahead in this century. Business benefits from high quality well maintained infrastructure and suffers when things fall apart. It is imperative that the investment continues otherwise we will fail as a nation. It is as simple as that.

 

Take Germany as an example. Although their economy has been suffering over the last 10 years that has not stopped them upgrading their railways, autobahns, etc. They realise the value of sustained investment in infrastructure. The same goes for France, the Netherlands, Spain and the Scandinavian countries.

 

Of course taking part in the illegal war in Iraq was a major foreign policy disaster perpetrated by Tony Blair who was backed to the hilt by the Tories. Yes, Gordon Brown signed the cheques but he was in an impossible position.

 

Had he been Prime minister I am absolutely certain he would not have gone down that road.

 

(4)Much of what Gordon Brown is doing is for the long term benefit of this country. It is dry and to the average punter these days, boring stuff. They say he has no charisma; so what?. I read somewhere someone suggesting that to improve his image he needs to get involved in a personal scandal. Unfortunately most of the people in the UK are hooked on the personality, celebrity and soap opera culture that is prevalent today. The irresponsible media are have main-lining on this stuff since Brown took over as PM. I even heard Frederick Forsyth (died in the wool Tory bum licker) say that Brown and porridge go well together ?they are both thick and come from Scotland? to much loud hilarity from the home counties ?Any Questions? audience. Oh, dear.

 

(1) DEBT - Gordon Brown budget speech 1997 - "I will not let house prices get out of control".

 

Hosue prices are the main reason for the huge personal debt in the UK. He was the chancellor for 10 years. he could have put in sensible policies/laws re. lending practices, taxes on second homes, proper rights for long term tenants etc... That would have had a huge impact on the situation we now find ourselves in. He did nothing. He let the bubble get bigger and bigger as it made everyone think they were well off.

 

I do agree that the same thing could have happened under the Tories. However we will never know. The last 10 years have been labour and the debt mess we are in now is down to them. No question about that.

 

(2) 'INVESTMENT' I think you will find a massive amount of that 'investment' has been in the form of 'off balance' PFI's. I do not have the details perhaps another poster would be better place to comment on exact figures.

 

(3) INFRASTRUCTURE - I totally agree. We do need to continue investment in the roads railways etc... Yes the Tories did leave it in a bit of a mess. However Labour have had 10 YEARS to try and start sorting it out. Very little has got any better. Just how long can Labour go on blaming the Tories.....

 

 

(4) FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY - I agree that he probably thinks what he has been doing is for th countries benefit. However he is completely wrong. Saddling people with huge debt just so they feel good for a few years is not genius plan IMO.

 

I think he has left this country in a huge mess. Every time I see him on TV he just says teh same thing, over and over again. he is not listening to what people are telling him. He is simply not up to the job. Saying that not many others are either.

 

I think Brown has lost the plot. He was on the Andrew Marr show last week and stated "Britain as a nation has LOW debt".

 

That is a lie. Pure and simple - and yet he was happy to state that as a fact to the population, when most of us know it is completely untrue.

 

He is either stupid, or delusional, or a bit of both. I actually thought, like the rest of the population, that he had been a great chancellor. That was until I started to look into the details. I now think he has been a disaster for this country that we will still be having nightmares about in 10 years time.

[billco98]

(1) DEBT - Gordon Brown budget speech 1997 - "I will not let house prices get out of control".

 

Hosue prices are the main reason for the huge personal debt in the UK. He was the chancellor for 10 years. he could have put in sensible policies/laws re. lending practices, taxes on second homes, proper rights for long term tenants etc... That would have had a huge impact on the situation we now find ourselves in. He did nothing. He let the bubble get bigger and bigger as it made everyone think they were well off.

 

I do agree that the same thing could have happened under the Tories. However we will never know. The last 10 years have been labour and the debt mess we are in now is down to them. No question about that.

 

(2) 'INVESTMENT' I think you will find a massive amount of that 'investment' has been in the form of 'off balance' PFI's. I do not have the details perhaps another poster would be better place to comment on exact figures.

 

(3) INFRASTRUCTURE - I totally agree. We do need to continue investment in the roads railways etc... Yes the Tories did leave it in a bit of a mess. However Labour have had 10 YEARS to try and start sorting it out. Very little has got any better. Just how long can Labour go on blaming the Tories.....

 

 

(4) FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY - I agree that he probably thinks what he has been doing is for th countries benefit. However he is completely wrong. Saddling people with huge debt just so they feel good for a few years is not genius plan IMO.

 

I think he has left this country in a huge mess. Every time I see him on TV he just says teh same thing, over and over again. he is not listening to what people are telling him. He is simply not up to the job. Saying that not many others are either.

 

I think Brown has lost the plot. He was on the Andrew Marr show last week and stated "Britain as a nation has LOW debt".

 

That is a lie. Pure and simple - and yet he was happy to state that as a fact to the population, when most of us know it is completely untrue.

 

He is either stupid, or delusional, or a bit of both. I actually thought, like the rest of the population, that he had been a great chancellor. That was until I started to look into the details. I now think he has been a disaster for this country that we will still be having nightmares about in 10 years time.

 

 

(1) House price (value) increases are determined by a combination of supply and demand and the interest rates. Their is a shortage of housing and for 10 years we have had low interst rates resultinmg in cheap borrowing.

 

Therre has also been a rise in 'buy for let' which has exacerbated the plight of thiose seeking to get on the housing ladder.

 

If Brown had intervened he would have been accused of meddling in the market.

 

much of the troublre has been as a result of Thatcher's deregulation of the banking system. Controls on lending safeguards were ditched resulting in a plethora of crazy mortgage deals where buyers were iemcoouraged to borrow more than they could realisitically afford to pay back. This in turn had an effect of house prices driving them up it is the banks and independent financial advisiors who have driven the scene. they were coining it in on the back of imprudent lending they are the one's to balme for the mortgage crisis. Individuals also borrowed against their house values in order to satisfy their need to keep up with the Joneses. Hardly Gordon Brown's fault.

 

(2) Investment - yes PFI's do form a substantial part of the ipublic investment package and whilst not ideal they are an important and necessay means of eating quickly into the back-log of neglect. I am a surveyor and I understand completely peoples concerns about PFI's but given the state of the hospitals and schools in this country after nearly 20 years of criminal neglect, fast track methods were required in order to bite into the problem. yes there will be a pay back in the future but Idont't see it as a dister by any means.

 

(3) Infrastructure ?Yes the Tories did leave it in a bit of a mess. However Labour have had 10 YEARS to try and start sorting it out. Very little has got any better.? You have got to be joking. I?m not going to elaborate further ? I think I would be wasting my time.