Conservative gains

[The Old Tolbooth]

Very true, it is just how they deal with the situation they are handed. Labour could not have handled this much worse. IMO.

 

**** - stick the greens or BNP in power they cant do any ****ing worse !!

 

You missed the monster raving loony party, oh hang on a mo, that lot are already in power!

[coppercrutch]

You missed the monster raving loony party, oh hang on a mo, that lot are already in power!

 

On a serious note I am no psychologist but in my amateur opinion Brown has mental issues. Just some of the things he says and does go beyond normal 'politics' IMO.

 

He is mental !!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

To you tories, who created the underclass in glasgow in the first place, doing away with all the heavy industry jobs(wait for the tory it was all the unions fault), yip it was the Grantham Gremlin herself, of course that's after she created a diddy war against Argentina,by removing the Endeavor(I think it was called) from the South Atlantic. And most of you commenting on her weren't even at school when "it" was Prime Minister, the country only started to turn round once she was punted out of office by her own side. I now for the first time ever look forward to an independent Scotland to ensure we are never ruled by that lot again.

 

Yep, because heavy industry remains the mainstay of the Western economies and hasn't flitted to Eastern Europe or the BRIC world at all.

 

Maybe the change happened too rapidly for many people's liking but the idea that shipbuilding, for example, was sustainable in Belfast, Glasgow and Newcastle was a joke. Indeed H&W in Belfast relied on MoD work throughout the 80s and 90s for the majority of its output. Then, when the Cold War ended that demand reduced as well.

 

The country started to turn around with financial deregulation in the mid 1980s, creating a multitude of new opportunities in financial services. Unfortunately, a lot of these were concentrated in the City of London leading to an economic imbalance across the country.

 

One final thought: How many people in Govan would actually want to work in a shipyard now? The truth is that most are comfortable in their benefit world.

[Ulysses]

He is embarresing.

 

I hope his record on education will be better than his predecessors.

[coppercrutch]

I hope his record on education will be better than his predecessors.

 

embarrassing

[Toggie88]

.

[coppercrutch]

Yep, because heavy industry remains the mainstay of the Western economies and hasn't flitted to Eastern Europe or the BRIC world at all.

 

Maybe the change happened too rapidly for many people's liking but the idea that shipbuilding, for example, was sustainable in Belfast, Glasgow and Newcastle was a joke. Indeed H&W in Belfast relied on MoD work throughout the 80s and 90s for the majority of its output. Then, when the Cold War ended that demand reduced as well.

 

The country started to turn around with financial deregulation in the mid 1980s, creating a multitude of new opportunities in financial services. Unfortunately, a lot of these were concentrated in the City of London leading to an economic imbalance across the country.

 

One final thought: How many people in Govan would actually want to work in a shipyard now? The truth is that most are comfortable in their benefit world.

 

It also means as a nation we are reliant on finance and property to keep the economy going.

 

What are those 2 things that are tanking right now all across the World...........

 

Oh dear...

 

A nice mix of some sort of manufacturing and finance would have been preferable.

[Cade]

Tory gains doon sooth is a good thing for the SNP.

 

Too many Scots still hate the Tories for what they did to this country in the 80s and will never vote for them.

 

Labour are also out of favour up here.

 

I expect the SNP and Liberals to make huge gains in Scotland at the next general election.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

On a serious note I am no psychologist but in my amateur opinion Brown has mental issues. Just some of the things he says and does go beyond normal 'politics' IMO.

 

He is mental !!

 

What is your amateur opinion of Salmond?

 

Does he come across to you as having small man syndrome?

 

Not in physical stature, but certainly in the political sphere, constantly picking fights with Westminster to prove how Scottish he is.

[upthehill]

Shove it up your A**e

 

The only people who took it up theirs arse at this election were Labour, not Conservatives like me. How does it feel? Personally, I've a very warm glow that our country is back on the right track voting wise, with Labour 3rd a long way behind us.

[upthehill]

The 12% of people who vote tory in Scotland don't half make some noise, also I am not a Labour supporter I just happen to have social concience which is something the tories certainly do not have.

 

Absolute nonsense, but another myth that people run to to try and justify voting for morally bankrupt people intent on ruining our economy/country

[coppercrutch]

What is your amateur opinion of Salmond?

 

Does he come across to you as having small man syndrome?

 

Not in physical stature, but certainly in the political sphere, constantly picking fights with Westminster to prove how Scottish he is.

 

In my amateur opinion he has little dog syndrome. Like a small terrier. Who just HAS to pick a fight with every Alsation that walks past. He is also very arrogant. Extremely self centered and has a serious chip on his shoulder.

 

Apart from that a nice chap...

[blairdin]

Labour and the Tories have both run this country into the ground. You can blame the unions, the lack of heavy industry etc but it was a combined effort by both parties.

 

To be frank, I don't trust any one party to run the country competently.

 

Two very very valid points.

 

The Tories screwed us over poll tax, Ravenscraig, shipbuilding, Rosyth whilst pandering to their south coast stronghaolds.

 

As for Labour - have wee ever paid more tax? They got so cocky with their tax rises that they have tried to steamroller through the 10p low rate issue hoping it would go un-noticed. A spectacular OG! There's only so far they can push even their own supporters apparently.

 

I think a big reason for the success of the Scottish Parliment so far is that no party has an overall majority so it forces them to give and take to agree policies for the common good.

 

Tory gains doon sooth is a good thing for the SNP.

 

Too many Scots still hate the Tories for what they did to this country in the 80s and will never vote for them.

 

Labour are also out of favour up here.

 

I expect the SNP and Liberals to make huge gains in Scotland at the next general election.

 

As do I.

 

I am not for Independence, although I am willing to listen to a debate with an open mind. Salmond was on the Politics Show at lunchtime and I was very impressed with him - his views on independence are obvious, but I still think he will be a good FM for Scotland even if the majority of Scots say no and we stay devolved. He seems willing to wheel-deal with the others.

 

Wendy Alexander meanwhile...a bumbling fool. Just like her gaffer darn sarf.

[coppercrutch]

Tory gains doon sooth is a good thing for the SNP.

 

Too many Scots still hate the Tories for what they did to this country in the 80s and will never vote for them.

 

Labour are also out of favour up here.

 

I expect the SNP and Liberals to make huge gains in Scotland at the next general election.

 

Which is one perfect reason why we should never be 'Independent'.

 

We have small country syndrome. Most of our population has this chip on their shoulder that they will never let go off. When you see what has happened with people like Martin Mcguinness and Ian Paisley in Ireland...............It does make this particular 'hatred' of the Tories in Scotland seem VERY pathetic and short sighted....

 

[frankblack]

I take it the Conservatives are on the take as well, since they resisted demands to make ticket touting illegal on several occasions in the 1980s.

 

Ticket touting isn't illegal here either. Is it illegal anywhere?

 

Not really relevant comparison since they haven't been in power for a long time.

 

I don't care whether ticket touting is illegal anywhere else it is here that matters. The fact is groups are buying up all the tickets (e.g. for T in the Park) to put on e-bay at several times the cost preventing a large section of the true fans from getting them at face value.

 

Labour haven't given a valid answer as to why they have twice rejected approaches from the music industry to stop it. All they want to offer is some kind of voluntary code, which does nothing to address the problem.

[frankblack]

I hardly think voting tory will help your pension, they'd have you in the mills from cradle to grave given half a chance, who was it that stopped the old age pension being linked to average earnings,thus causing the state pension to now almost be worthless yip THATCHER and her cronies, Tories always have been the party of selfishness and greed, you can guarantee that whatever mistakes have been made by the current lot will be multiplied 10 fold by that bunch of inbred aristocrats. Your manifesto above could easily have been taken straight from Mein Kampf:evilno:

 

What the tories did to the pension is nothing compared to Gordon brown, meaning that the majority of us on contributary pensions would need to put 50% of our wages in to have anything like a final salary pension at the end. Someone on ?25k will be lucky to get a pension of ?7k p.a.

 

The only people that are going to be able to retire are those in public sector jobs, paid for by our taxes.

 

Why keep bringing Thatcher references into things - she brought the country and economy onto a stable footing following the catastrophic Labour government under Callaghan. 3 day week, miner strikes, power cuts, etc. Even Labour realised they were to incompetent to sort things out so resigned and called an election. Labour didn't get near to becoming a credible party until John Smith made the ground for Tony Blair to win in 97. What union zealots like yourself fail to realise is that this Labour government made themselves electable by introducing Thatcherite policies and getting rid of the loony left in the party.

 

Now since Labour got into power and relaxed restrictions on Unions key industries are striking left right and centre and helping to bring the economy to its knees. This is going to finish them in government.

 

As for your comparisons to Mein Kampf, perhaps you just need to wake up and smell the coffee. Anyone that is "middle class" must be a right-wing fascist since they don't agree with you. I'm not a Labour drone - I used to vote labour, but they let me down by abandoning the policies that were important to me at the time. Generally I vote Lib Dem now to keep the loony left out.

 

As for the 10p tax rate abolishment, Labour screwed up by hitting their own core vote instead of adding a bigger tax burden to the middle classes as usual. Anyone classed as middle class must be loaded since they earn more - however our mortgages cost more and our pensions are smaller, so who are the people getting screwed by Labour?

[Ulysses]

Not really relevant comparison since they haven't been in power for a long time.

 

I don't care whether ticket touting is illegal anywhere else it is here that matters. The fact is groups are buying up all the tickets (e.g. for T in the Park) to put on e-bay at several times the cost preventing a large section of the true fans from getting them at face value.

 

Labour haven't given a valid answer as to why they have twice rejected approaches from the music industry to stop it. All they want to offer is some kind of voluntary code, which does nothing to address the problem.

 

I take it that the Conservatives will ban ticket touting if they return to power? I wasn't aware (a) that this was their policy and ( that they'd given it a great deal of thought - or in fact any thought at all. I must admit that ticket touting would be a long (long long long) way down my list of policy priorities in deciding who to vote for.

[Toggie88]

RE ticket touting.

 

A bill just went through the Scottish Parliament on Wednesday, which outlawed ticket touting for the 2014 games.

 

A small step, but still a step.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

The bill was introduced after the organising committee stated it would help, funny how it was never a problem till now. Sir Smith (lib Dumb) chairs the com.

[Ulysses]

RE ticket touting.

 

A bill just went through the Scottish Parliament on Wednesday, which outlawed ticket touting for the 2014 games.

 

A small step, but still a step.

 

 

How will this work? How will it be enforced?

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

How will this work? How will it be enforced?

 

You seem worried!

 

(Any T in the park tickets mr Tout?)

[Toggie88]

How will this work? How will it be enforced?

 

Ask Sir Rob.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Ask Sir Rob.

 

Is he a member of KB?

[billco98]

When he was appointed, I don't think I've ever seen a bigger example of a "job for the boys" (apart from Gordhun Smith of course), and the chancellor apart, I don't think I've ever seen a man so far out of his depth before!

 

The man is a complete waste of skin and breath!

 

You could not be more wrong.

 

Dave 'Flashman' Cameron and his sidekick Osborne are men of straw with no long term vision for the country as a whole and anyone who believes otherwise is deluded in the extreme. The raison d'etre of the Tory Party is to look after their Big Capitalist mentors. Their policies are always short term with no thought given to long term well being of the country as a whole - and it was always thus.

 

If this country falls into the hands of the Tories we are all on the road to Hell in a hand-cart.

 

Yes, Ken Clarke stabilised the economy before the rag tag sleaze ridden Tory government finally departed the scene back in 1997. Gordon Brown acted on the Tory spending policies for the first two years of the Labour Government rather than immediately steering his own course. He took stick from frustrated Labour MPs but his strategy proved right in the end. I am old enough to remember the periods of stop-go, boom and bust, recessions, high interest rates, high inflation and all the rest over most of my lifetime through the 60's, 70's 80's and first half of the nineties.

 

I remember well Black Wednesday and interest rates at 15%. I remember well successive Tory Chancellors buying votes at General Elections by making tax cuts when our basic services were falling to bits around our necks. I remember well Tory Governments' manipulation of interest rates to suit their political ends without a second thought for not just the millions of unemployed, but for the resulting under-class who had no chance of learning a skill or indeed of gaining meaningful employment. We are now reaping the harvest of that neglect in the form major social problems in our society.

 

Gordon Brown's first act as Chancellor was to hand over decision making on interest rates to The Bank of England thus removing control from the hands of manipulative politicians.

 

We may well be paying more tax than ever before, although I am not sure that that is the case. It is hardly surprising that our taxation is high given the investment required in railways, the NHS, schools, etc after 20 years of utter neglect and under investment by the Tories.

 

We have achieved the longest sustained period of economic growth in living memory under the stewardship of Gordon Brown. Make no mistake, had the Tories been in power they would have squandered the benefits in tax cuts which would have compound the already derelict state of the strategic infrastructure of the country.

 

We are moving into difficult and possibly uncharted waters as far as the international economic scene goes. The oil price could easily reach $150 a barrel before the end of the year. World grain and cereal prices are rocketing due to a combination of low supply caused by the effects of global warming and rising demand due to the booming economies of India and China. Global warming itself is going to have a steadily increasing affect on all of our lives. We are going to have to drastically improve our education and training of our workforce in order to raise our game in terms of ‘added value’ in our product out-put in order to compete with not only the emerging economies of the Far East but those of Eastern Europe who are catching up fast. We are seeing more and more low tech jobs moving East. We need to drastically increase our investment in R & D at our Universities in order to develop products that keep us ahead of the competition. If we fail to do this our economy will not be able to sustain the standard of living we have come to expect.

 

Gordon Brown is aware of this and has frequently banged on about it but nobody listens. 'It's all too boring - not flash enough'. Don’t hold your breath to hear any of this from Mr Cameron. The types in his 'real' constituency would not understand or care a fig for any of that.

 

I know who I would rather have at the tiller in a storm and it’s not the ‘Boy David’.

 

Gordon Brown has taken and will carry on taking the tough decisions required to lay the foundations for the future. Unfortunately this country has still a long way to go on that road and he may not have time to see it through.

[frankblack]

I take it that the Conservatives will ban ticket touting if they return to power? I wasn't aware (a) that this was their policy and ( that they'd given it a great deal of thought - or in fact any thought at all. I must admit that ticket touting would be a long (long long long) way down my list of policy priorities in deciding who to vote for.

 

Firstly, I have already stated that I don't vote Tory, but would do so if it kept Labour out.

 

Secondly I was raising issues of importance to me, not the country as a whole. I think ticket touts are **** and the Government should have eliminated them.

 

When the Tories get into power at the next election I hope the first act they introduce is to reverse Brown's destruction of our pensions. If that means they have to lay off some civil servants to do so, then so be it.

 

Scotland has too much of a dependency on the public sector for jobs. When the Lib/Lab Holyrood administration introduced the policy of relocating jobs around the country, all that happened was that they created extra posts and the people that didn't want to move got another position in Edinburgh. As an aside, that policy was politically motivated to create more jobs in Glasgow, where about 50% of them went - hardly a place that is short of jobs.

[troonjambo]

You could not be more wrong.

 

Dave 'Flashman' Cameron and his sidekick Osborne are men of straw with no long term vision for the country as a whole and anyone who believes otherwise is deluded in the extreme. The raison d'etre of the Tory Party is to look after their Big Capitalist mentors. Their policies are always short term with no thought given to long term well being of the country as a whole - and it was always thus.

 

If this country falls into the hands of the Tories we are all on the road to Hell in a hand-cart.

 

Yes, Ken Clarke stabilised the economy before the rag tag sleaze ridden Tory government finally departed the scene back in 1997. Gordon Brown acted on the Tory spending policies for the first two years of the Labour Government rather than immediately steering his own course. He took stick from frustrated Labour MPs but his strategy proved right in the end. I am old enough to remember the periods of stop-go, boom and bust, recessions, high interest rates, high inflation and all the rest over most of my lifetime through the 60's, 70's 80's and first half of the nineties.

 

I remember well Black Wednesday and interest rates at 15%. I remember well successive Tory Chancellors buying votes at General Elections by making tax cuts when our basic services were falling to bits around our necks. I remember well Tory Governments' manipulation of interest rates to suit their political ends without a second thought for not just the millions of unemployed, but for the resulting under-class who had no chance of learning a skill or indeed of gaining meaningful employment. We are now reaping the harvest of that neglect in the form major social problems in our society.

 

Gordon Brown's first act as Chancellor was to hand over decision making on interest rates to The Bank of England thus removing control from the hands of manipulative politicians.

 

We may well be paying more tax than ever before, although I am not sure that that is the case. It is hardly surprising that our taxation is high given the investment required in railways, the NHS, schools, etc after 20 years of utter neglect and under investment by the Tories.

 

We have achieved the longest sustained period of economic growth in living memory under the stewardship of Gordon Brown. Make no mistake, had the Tories been in power they would have squandered the benefits in tax cuts which would have compound the already derelict state of the strategic infrastructure of the country.

 

We are moving into difficult and possibly uncharted waters as far as the international economic scene goes. The oil price could easily reach $150 a barrel before the end of the year. World grain and cereal prices are rocketing due to a combination of low supply caused by the effects of global warming and rising demand due to the booming economies of India and China. Global warming itself is going to have a steadily increasing affect on all of our lives. We are going to have to drastically improve our education and training of our workforce in order to raise our game in terms of ?added value? in our product out-put in order to compete with not only the emerging economies of the Far East but those of Eastern Europe who are catching up fast. We are seeing more and more low tech jobs moving East. We need to drastically increase our investment in R & D at our Universities in order to develop products that keep us ahead of the competition. If we fail to do this our economy will not be able to sustain the standard of living we have come to expect.

 

Gordon Brown is aware of this and has frequently banged on about it but nobody listens. 'It's all too boring - not flash enough'. Don?t hold your breath to hear any of this from Mr Cameron. The types in his 'real' constituency would not understand or care a fig for any of that.

 

I know who I would rather have at the tiller in a storm and it?s not the ?Boy David?.

 

Gordon Brown has taken and will carry on taking the tough decisions required to lay the foundations for the future. Unfortunately this country has still a long way to go on that road and he may not have time to see it through.

 

OMG someone who knows what there talking about on kickback are you sure your not lost mate ;);)

[davemclaren]

In my amateur opinion he has little dog syndrome. Like a small terrier. Who just HAS to pick a fight with every Alsation that walks past. He is also very arrogant. Extremely self centered and has a serious chip on his shoulder.

 

Apart from that a nice chap...

 

He's just gallus....

[Ulysses]

Firstly, I have already stated that I don't vote Tory, but would do so if it kept Labour out.

 

Secondly I was raising issues of importance to me, not the country as a whole. I think ticket touts are **** and the Government should have eliminated them.

 

When the Tories get into power at the next election I hope the first act they introduce is to reverse Brown's destruction of our pensions. If that means they have to lay off some civil servants to do so, then so be it.

 

Scotland has too much of a dependency on the public sector for jobs. When the Lib/Lab Holyrood administration introduced the policy of relocating jobs around the country, all that happened was that they created extra posts and the people that didn't want to move got another position in Edinburgh. As an aside, that policy was politically motivated to create more jobs in Glasgow, where about 50% of them went - hardly a place that is short of jobs.

 

 

OK, understood. I didn't really think the ticket touting added any weight to your list, especially considering that it doesn't look as if the Conservatives would do anything about it either.

 

The Conservatives won't do anything for your pension either. We're watching that argument being lost from one end of the developed world to the other.

 

I was reading tonight about the excessive dependence on public sector jobs in the Welsh economy, and the situation is even more stark in NI. It seems to be a feature of the "peripheral" regions in the UK. Wales is having awful trouble trying to generate business investment outside of Cardiff and Swansea. Several politicians in NI are seeking to have its Corporation Tax regime brought into line with Ireland's to attract more foreign direct investment, but that is unlikely to happen. I don't know what the answer is in Scotland - especially if you want to generate private sector investment away from the Central Belt. But if the politicians cut public sector jobs in those regions without a compensating rise in private sector employment, all that will happen is that the economies of the regions will be hollowed out, leading to high unemployment or outward migration.

 

I agree with your point about relocating public sector jobs for political reasons. The government here is relocating 10,000 jobs out of Dublin to towns around the country for no reason other than local politics and croneyism. The plan will end up costing taxpayers about ?2 billion while giving them worse services. It's a crap idea here, and I doubt it's a good one in Scotland.

[RobM]

Absolute nonsense, but another myth that people run to to try and justify voting for morally bankrupt people intent on ruining our economy/country

 

Morally solvent people maintain the economy then?

 

Tell that to the great charitable institution that was Northern Rock.

[RobM]

You could not be more wrong.

 

Dave 'Flashman' Cameron and his sidekick Osborne are men of straw with no long term vision for the country as a whole and anyone who believes otherwise is deluded in the extreme. The raison d'etre of the Tory Party is to look after their Big Capitalist mentors. Their policies are always short term with no thought given to long term well being of the country as a whole - and it was always thus.

 

If this country falls into the hands of the Tories we are all on the road to Hell in a hand-cart.

 

Yes, Ken Clarke stabilised the economy before the rag tag sleaze ridden Tory government finally departed the scene back in 1997. Gordon Brown acted on the Tory spending policies for the first two years of the Labour Government rather than immediately steering his own course. He took stick from frustrated Labour MPs but his strategy proved right in the end. I am old enough to remember the periods of stop-go, boom and bust, recessions, high interest rates, high inflation and all the rest over most of my lifetime through the 60's, 70's 80's and first half of the nineties.

 

I remember well Black Wednesday and interest rates at 15%. I remember well successive Tory Chancellors buying votes at General Elections by making tax cuts when our basic services were falling to bits around our necks. I remember well Tory Governments' manipulation of interest rates to suit their political ends without a second thought for not just the millions of unemployed, but for the resulting under-class who had no chance of learning a skill or indeed of gaining meaningful employment. We are now reaping the harvest of that neglect in the form major social problems in our society.

 

Gordon Brown's first act as Chancellor was to hand over decision making on interest rates to The Bank of England thus removing control from the hands of manipulative politicians.

 

We may well be paying more tax than ever before, although I am not sure that that is the case. It is hardly surprising that our taxation is high given the investment required in railways, the NHS, schools, etc after 20 years of utter neglect and under investment by the Tories.

 

We have achieved the longest sustained period of economic growth in living memory under the stewardship of Gordon Brown. Make no mistake, had the Tories been in power they would have squandered the benefits in tax cuts which would have compound the already derelict state of the strategic infrastructure of the country.

 

We are moving into difficult and possibly uncharted waters as far as the international economic scene goes. The oil price could easily reach $150 a barrel before the end of the year. World grain and cereal prices are rocketing due to a combination of low supply caused by the effects of global warming and rising demand due to the booming economies of India and China. Global warming itself is going to have a steadily increasing affect on all of our lives. We are going to have to drastically improve our education and training of our workforce in order to raise our game in terms of ?added value? in our product out-put in order to compete with not only the emerging economies of the Far East but those of Eastern Europe who are catching up fast. We are seeing more and more low tech jobs moving East. We need to drastically increase our investment in R & D at our Universities in order to develop products that keep us ahead of the competition. If we fail to do this our economy will not be able to sustain the standard of living we have come to expect.

 

Gordon Brown is aware of this and has frequently banged on about it but nobody listens. 'It's all too boring - not flash enough'. Don?t hold your breath to hear any of this from Mr Cameron. The types in his 'real' constituency would not understand or care a fig for any of that.

 

I know who I would rather have at the tiller in a storm and it?s not the ?Boy David?.

 

Gordon Brown has taken and will carry on taking the tough decisions required to lay the foundations for the future. Unfortunately this country has still a long way to go on that road and he may not have time to see it through.

 

 

Good argument, lot to agree with in there. Upthehill, do we have a riposte on behalf of the Conservamatorys? I'd hate to think that you're all bluster.......

[tcjambo]

 

You could not be more wrong.

 

Dave 'Flashman' Cameron and his sidekick Osborne are men of straw with no long term vision for the country as a whole and anyone who believes otherwise is deluded in the extreme.

 

Well there's a good way of shutting down an argument. I believe Cameron has got a vision. He has however had to change perception about his party first and foremost. Something he's done rather well by the evidence of Thursday.

 

The raison d'etre of the Tory Party is to look after their Big Capitalist mentors. Their policies are always short term with no thought given to long term well being of the country as a whole - and it was always thus.

 

Same old tired Socialist tripe. The Tory party is the party of the individual. It should be more pro-business than Labour because small businesses are the lifeblood of the country - something Gordon Clown has never understood. Short-termism is the one accusation you can't accuse Tory governments of committing.

 

If this country falls into the hands of the Tories we are all on the road to Hell in a hand-cart.

 

the rag tag sleaze ridden Tory government finally departed the scene back in 1997.

 

Selective amnesia methinks- McLeish, Eccleston, Peter Foster, Tessa Jowell's husband, Wendy Alexander, Peter Hain, Mandelson (twice), Hinduja's, cash for honours, Blunkett, Ron Davies.

 

 

Yes, Ken Clarke stabilised the economy a Brown acted on the Tory spending policies for the first two years of the Labour Government rather than immediately steering his own course. He took stick from frustrated Labour MPs but his strategy proved right in the end. I am old enough to remember the periods of stop-go, boom and bust, recessions, high interest rates, high inflation and all the rest over most of my lifetime through the 60's, 70's 80's and first half of the nineties.

 

In 1997 Ken Clarke (to a large extent the man who deserves the credit for our long sustained period of growth) when faced with electoral meltdown he delivered a broadly neutral budget. He resisted the temptation to save Tory seats by a giveaway budget. He wasn't the man to abolish tax relief on pension funds and penalise hard working people of Britain with escalating taxes. He wasn't the man that encouraged people to borrow more and more to sustain a spending spree that inflated property prices. Brown has mortgaged the future of this country to pay for today and make himself look good and for that he deserves our utter contempt. He's now been found out - he really is the worst chancellor we've ever had.

 

I remember well Black Wednesday and interest rates at 15%.

This was caused by entering the ERM. What was Labour's policy at the time? - to take us quicker and deeper into Europe! Only Maggie Thatcher and a group or right and left wing 'barstewards' were sceptical about Europe and it cost her her job. Real interest rates are what count. Remember much of the time the Conservative governments were dealing with inflation well above the current OFFICIAL RATE Pay settlements were also much higher.

 

Successive Tory Chancellors buying votes at General Elections by making tax cuts when our basic services were falling to bits around our necks. I remember well Tory Governments' manipulation of interest rates to suit their political ends without a second thought for not just the millions of unemployed, but for the resulting under-class who had no chance of learning a skill or indeed of gaining meaningful employment. We are now reaping the harvest of that neglect in the form major social problems in our society.

 

Gordon Brown's first act as Chancellor was to hand over decision making on interest rates to The Bank of England thus removing control from the hands of manipulative politicians.

 

Only because he wanted to pass the buck to someone else if something goes wrong! And guess what he's been picking up the phone to Mervyn King and begging him to lower interest rates etc.

 

We may well be paying more tax than ever before, although I am not sure that that is the case.

 

Do you live in a cave?

 

It is hardly surprising that our taxation is high given the investment required in railways, the NHS, schools, etc after 20 years of utter neglect and under investment by the Tories.

 

The only government to cut the NHS was Labour in 1978 - I wrote to David Owen about it.

 

We have achieved the longest sustained period of economic growth in living memory under the stewardship of Gordon Brown. Make no mistake, had the Tories been in power they would have squandered the benefits in tax cuts which would have compound the already derelict state of the strategic infrastructure of the country.

 

Instead we squandered in employing 700000 extra public servants - they're not all doctors, nurses teachers etc.

 

We are moving into difficult and possibly uncharted waters as far as the international economic scene goes. The oil price could easily reach $150 a barrel before the end of the year. World grain and cereal prices are rocketing due to a combination of low supply caused by the effects of global warming and rising demand due to the booming economies of India and China. Global warming itself is going to have a steadily increasing affect on all of our lives. We are going to have to drastically improve our education and training of our workforce in order to raise our game in terms of ?added value? in our product out-put in order to compete with not only the emerging economies of the Far East but those of Eastern Europe who are catching up fast. We are seeing more and more low tech jobs moving East. We need to drastically increase our investment in R & D at our Universities in order to develop products that keep us ahead of the competition. If we fail to do this our economy will not be able to sustain the standard of living we have come to expect.

 

Remember it was Brown who took 27 billion in mobile phone licences off the phone companies. What happened next - Motorola closed Bathgate down. Were these low tech jobs?

 

Gordon Brown is aware of this and has frequently banged on about it but nobody listens. 'It's all too boring - not flash enough'. Don?t hold your breath to hear any of this from Mr Cameron. The types in his 'real' constituency would not understand or care a fig for any of that.

 

I know who I would rather have at the tiller in a storm and it?s not the ?Boy David?.

 

Gordon Brown has taken and will carry on taking the tough decisions required to lay the foundations for the future. Unfortunately this country has still a long way to go on that road and he may not have time to see it through.

 

What a load of utter bollocks!

[tcjambo]

Brown says he wants to listen - well listen to this. Call a general election and show some backbone!

[The Old Tolbooth]

What a load of utter bollocks!

 

Which is one of the reasons I tend not to get involved in political arguments, because everyone think they are right, and everyone has their own ideas on how to run the country.

 

Normally threads like this descend into mass slagging matches and point scoring bouts, which is why I keep my statements simple and can't be bothered going into large debates over it as the larger your response on this subject, the more people want to pick holes in it, and it goes on and on and on and on and on....................................... until we either all fall asleep, or another war breaks out!

[maltese jambo]

You could not be more wrong.

 

Dave 'Flashman' Cameron and his sidekick Osborne are men of straw with no long term vision for the country as a whole and anyone who believes otherwise is deluded in the extreme. The raison d'etre of the Tory Party is to look after their Big Capitalist mentors. Their policies are always short term with no thought given to long term well being of the country as a whole - and it was always thus.

 

If this country falls into the hands of the Tories we are all on the road to Hell in a hand-cart.

 

Yes, Ken Clarke stabilised the economy before the rag tag sleaze ridden Tory government finally departed the scene back in 1997. Gordon Brown acted on the Tory spending policies for the first two years of the Labour Government rather than immediately steering his own course. He took stick from frustrated Labour MPs but his strategy proved right in the end. I am old enough to remember the periods of stop-go, boom and bust, recessions, high interest rates, high inflation and all the rest over most of my lifetime through the 60's, 70's 80's and first half of the nineties.

 

I remember well Black Wednesday and interest rates at 15%. I remember well successive Tory Chancellors buying votes at General Elections by making tax cuts when our basic services were falling to bits around our necks. I remember well Tory Governments' manipulation of interest rates to suit their political ends without a second thought for not just the millions of unemployed, but for the resulting under-class who had no chance of learning a skill or indeed of gaining meaningful employment. We are now reaping the harvest of that neglect in the form major social problems in our society.

 

Gordon Brown's first act as Chancellor was to hand over decision making on interest rates to The Bank of England thus removing control from the hands of manipulative politicians.

 

We may well be paying more tax than ever before, although I am not sure that that is the case. It is hardly surprising that our taxation is high given the investment required in railways, the NHS, schools, etc after 20 years of utter neglect and under investment by the Tories.

 

We have achieved the longest sustained period of economic growth in living memory under the stewardship of Gordon Brown. Make no mistake, had the Tories been in power they would have squandered the benefits in tax cuts which would have compound the already derelict state of the strategic infrastructure of the country.

 

We are moving into difficult and possibly uncharted waters as far as the international economic scene goes. The oil price could easily reach $150 a barrel before the end of the year. World grain and cereal prices are rocketing due to a combination of low supply caused by the effects of global warming and rising demand due to the booming economies of India and China. Global warming itself is going to have a steadily increasing affect on all of our lives. We are going to have to drastically improve our education and training of our workforce in order to raise our game in terms of ?added value? in our product out-put in order to compete with not only the emerging economies of the Far East but those of Eastern Europe who are catching up fast. We are seeing more and more low tech jobs moving East. We need to drastically increase our investment in R & D at our Universities in order to develop products that keep us ahead of the competition. If we fail to do this our economy will not be able to sustain the standard of living we have come to expect.

 

Gordon Brown is aware of this and has frequently banged on about it but nobody listens. 'It's all too boring - not flash enough'. Don?t hold your breath to hear any of this from Mr Cameron. The types in his 'real' constituency would not understand or care a fig for any of that.

 

I know who I would rather have at the tiller in a storm and it?s not the ?Boy David?.

 

Gordon Brown has taken and will carry on taking the tough decisions required to lay the foundations for the future. Unfortunately this country has still a long way to go on that road and he may not have time to see it through.

 

Correction...his first act as chancellor was to raid pension schemes and remove their tax reilefs.

 

This was the first act of many in his quest to encourage a spend now, pay later culture which is now fast catching up with us.....whos going to pay later??

 

You can try the character assasination attempt on Cameron and Osbourne as much as you like but the truth is that they're saints compared to the records of your mob.

 

Call a general election now and we can finally finish this tube off.

[Boris]

"We"?

 

This was the first act of many in his quest to encourage a spend now, pay later culture which is now fast catching up with us.....whos going to pay later??

 

Sounds like Tory policy throughout the 80's tbh....

[Coco]

"We"?

 

 

 

Sounds like Tory policy throughout the 80's tbh....

 

Yes, to some extent the sale of Government assets (as well as North Sea Oil tax revenues) should have gone into investments for the future rather than squandering on continual increases in the size of Government.

[coppercrutch]

You could not be more wrong.

 

Dave 'Flashman' Cameron and his sidekick Osborne are men of straw with no long term vision for the country as a whole and anyone who believes otherwise is deluded in the extreme. The raison d'etre of the Tory Party is to look after their Big Capitalist mentors. Their policies are always short term with no thought given to long term well being of the country as a whole - and it was always thus.

 

If this country falls into the hands of the Tories we are all on the road to Hell in a hand-cart.

 

Yes, Ken Clarke stabilised the economy before the rag tag sleaze ridden Tory government finally departed the scene back in 1997. Gordon Brown acted on the Tory spending policies for the first two years of the Labour Government rather than immediately steering his own course. He took stick from frustrated Labour MPs but his strategy proved right in the end. I am old enough to remember the periods of stop-go, boom and bust, recessions, high interest rates, high inflation and all the rest over most of my lifetime through the 60's, 70's 80's and first half of the nineties.

 

I remember well Black Wednesday and interest rates at 15%. I remember well successive Tory Chancellors buying votes at General Elections by making tax cuts when our basic services were falling to bits around our necks. I remember well Tory Governments' manipulation of interest rates to suit their political ends without a second thought for not just the millions of unemployed, but for the resulting under-class who had no chance of learning a skill or indeed of gaining meaningful employment. We are now reaping the harvest of that neglect in the form major social problems in our society.

 

Gordon Brown's first act as Chancellor was to hand over decision making on interest rates to The Bank of England thus removing control from the hands of manipulative politicians.

 

We may well be paying more tax than ever before, although I am not sure that that is the case. It is hardly surprising that our taxation is high given the investment required in railways, the NHS, schools, etc after 20 years of utter neglect and under investment by the Tories.

 

We have achieved the longest sustained period of economic growth in living memory under the stewardship of Gordon Brown. Make no mistake, had the Tories been in power they would have squandered the benefits in tax cuts which would have compound the already derelict state of the strategic infrastructure of the country.

 

We are moving into difficult and possibly uncharted waters as far as the international economic scene goes. The oil price could easily reach $150 a barrel before the end of the year. World grain and cereal prices are rocketing due to a combination of low supply caused by the effects of global warming and rising demand due to the booming economies of India and China. Global warming itself is going to have a steadily increasing affect on all of our lives. We are going to have to drastically improve our education and training of our workforce in order to raise our game in terms of ?added value? in our product out-put in order to compete with not only the emerging economies of the Far East but those of Eastern Europe who are catching up fast. We are seeing more and more low tech jobs moving East. We need to drastically increase our investment in R & D at our Universities in order to develop products that keep us ahead of the competition. If we fail to do this our economy will not be able to sustain the standard of living we have come to expect.

 

Gordon Brown is aware of this and has frequently banged on about it but nobody listens. 'It's all too boring - not flash enough'. Don?t hold your breath to hear any of this from Mr Cameron. The types in his 'real' constituency would not understand or care a fig for any of that.

 

I know who I would rather have at the tiller in a storm and it?s not the ?Boy David?.

 

Gordon Brown has taken and will carry on taking the tough decisions required to lay the foundations for the future. Unfortunately this country has still a long way to go on that road and he may not have time to see it through.

 

The above is a perfect example of someone who appears to know what they are talking about, but clearly does not. ( No offence Billco98 ).

 

What I have highlighted in bold above describes today, perfectly. And all this following 10 years of Labour rule....

 

What I would guess is that you are a pretty intelligent person. BUT you have been blinded by the usual Scottish hatred of the Tories. You therefore swallow a little too much of the Labour spin and lies that permeate through this country today.

[Boris]

The above is a perfect example of someone who appears to know what they are talking about, but clearly does not. ( No offence Billco98 ).

 

What I have highlighted in bold above describes today, perfectly. And all this following 10 years of Labour rule....

 

What I would guess is that you are a pretty intelligent person. BUT you have been blinded by the usual Scottish hatred of the Tories. You therefore swallow a little too much of the Labour spin and lies that permeate through this country today.

 

But interest rates and inflation have remained reltively stable over the last 10 years, haven't they?

[coppercrutch]

But interest rates and inflation have remained reltively stable over the last 10 years, haven't they?

 

Interest rates have. Inflation has not. That is a problem.

[Coco]

But interest rates and inflation have remained reltively stable over the last 10 years, haven't they?

 

Yes that is right, but that is just one means of measuring the damage to the currency.

 

Since Brown really started squandering money in 2000, the Pound has lost 27% in value against the Euro. It is just the usual Labour Chancellor record - tax up, squandering up, balance of payments crisis, sterling fall, union disquiet, strikes etc.

 

I think people might be surprised at how few drinks they might be able to afford on holiday this summer.

[davemclaren]

Interest rates have. Inflation has not. That is a problem.

 

COmpared to the 70s it's been inflation rate nirvana.

[Boris]

Yes that is right, but that is just one means of measuring the damage to the currency.

 

Since Brown really started squandering money in 2000, the Pound has lost 27% in value against the Euro. It is just the usual Labour Chancellor record - tax up, squandering up, balance of payments crisis, sterling fall, union disquiet, strikes etc.

 

I think people might be surprised at how few drinks they might be able to afford on holiday this summer.

 

I was in Amsterdam a fortnight ago and you could really notice it.

 

4-5 euros for a pint which at the time equalled ?3.50-?4 a pint. Ouch. It also increased the cost of our hotel as when we booked it was c.?300 but by the time we went it was ?400 due to exchange rates.

 

Should've gone to New York City!!

 

But I also remember being in Frankfurt AM Main when Black Wednesday hit. Fortunately I had my travellers cheques in Deutschemarks rather than Sterling...

 

Labour/Tory - they'll both muck it up.

[billco98]

The above is a perfect example of someone who appears to know what they are talking about, but clearly does not. ( No offence Billco98 ).

 

What I have highlighted in bold above describes today, perfectly. And all this following 10 years of Labour rule....

 

What I would guess is that you are a pretty intelligent person. BUT you have been blinded by the usual Scottish hatred of the Tories. You therefore swallow a little too much of the Labour spin and lies that permeate through this country today.

 

 

Wrong. It?s got absolutely nothing to do with being Scottish and hatred is not a road I go down either. No, I have not swallowed any Labour spin. I am a social democrat who believes in a mixed economy, ie private ownership for most things but public ownership where profit motives and dividends for share holders run counter to the public good.

 

I am perfectly capable of making my own judgments and just as able to form my own opinions. I marched against the War in Iraq in February 2003 when the Tories backed Blair in his decision to go to war. I believe Tony Blair to have been a bad appointment

 

I have read your comments re my post and respect your opinion. You either are not old enough to have lived through the Tory years of '79 -'93 or if you did then you must have been living in a cave somewhere oblivious to the fallout (3 million unemployed, rampant inflations, high interest rates, poll tax riots, BSE, oil revenues squandered on unemployment benefit, not to mention additional borrowing to requirement to meet short falls in social security payments. Oh, I just remembered the selling off of the family silver as so aptly described by none other than ex Tory Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan.

 

Or perhaps you were around and were one of the few totally blinkered people who accepted the otherwise discredited excuses peddled by Tory Central Office and their associated think tanks.

 

Labour have made some mistakes I will admit e.g. on the 10 p tax rate but their 11 years in power have given us one of the longest periods of sustained growth in our history whilst dealing with the underlying disinvestment caused by the Tory years of neglect.

[billco98]

Yes, to some extent the sale of Government assets (as well as North Sea Oil tax revenues) should have gone into investments for the future rather than squandering on continual increases in the size of Government.

 

I think you will find that the area of Government which grew most in the Tory years from '79 - '96 was the department dealing with social security which had to pay out billions in unemployment benefits. The budget for unemployment benefit was funded by North Sea Oil Revenues and vast amount of borrowing. Your are right - they had the chance to invest in public services including bringing our railways up to European standard, but the Tories squandered that opportunity. I would say that was one of the biggest indictments to be laid at their door; that, and the terrible sacrifice of those thrown onto the dole with no regard given to their future.

 

 

I for one will never forgive them.

[Craig R]

The main problem down South is the choice is straight up Labour or Conservative. They don't have a party who offer something different, something to the left like we have in Scotland.

 

Liberal Democrats are to the left of both Labour and Conservatives.

[Denny Crane]

What a load of utter bollocks!

 

Well could you give a full, detailed response explaining why you believe his argument to be a load of old proverbial?

[tcjambo]

Did you read my reply? I'd be more than happy to detail it again if you did see me going through it bit by bit!

 

Well could you give a full, detailed response explaining why you believe his argument to be a load of old proverbial?

[Toggie88]

Liberal Democrats are to the left of both Labour and Conservatives.

 

 

Let's see them admit to it. The Lib dems are irrelevant anyway.

[Ulysses]

Did you read my reply? I'd be more than happy to detail it again if you did see me going through it bit by bit!

 

I read your reply and because it was all tied up in the quote from billco98 it was difficult to tell which were his comments and which were yours.

 

Then your one-liner appeared just after the quote. Perhaps that explains why matt74 thought you had quoted billco98 and replied to him with your one-liner.

 

Just a thought, not intending to be critical.

[tcjambo]

FYI Matt/Ulysses - sorry my previous reply was a bit mangled! My bits should come through in BOLD.

 

 

Dave 'Flashman' Cameron and his sidekick Osborne are men of straw with no long term vision for the country as a whole and anyone who believes otherwise is deluded in the extreme.

 

Well there's a good way of shutting down an argument. I believe Cameron has got a vision. He has however had to change perception about his party first and foremost. Something he's done rather well by the evidence of Thursday.

 

The raison d'etre of the Tory Party is to look after their Big Capitalist mentors. Their policies are always short term with no thought given to long term well being of the country as a whole - and it was always thus.

 

Same old tired Socialist tripe. The Tory party is the party of the individual. It should be more pro-business than Labour because small businesses are the lifeblood of the country - something Gordon Clown has never understood. Short-termism is the one accusation you can't accuse Tory governments of committing.

 

If this country falls into the hands of the Tories we are all on the road to Hell in a hand-cart.

 

the rag tag sleaze ridden Tory government finally departed the scene back in 1997.

Selective amnesia methinks- McLeish, Eccleston, Peter Foster, Tessa Jowell's husband, Wendy Alexander, Peter Hain, Mandelson (twice), Hinduja's, cash for honours, Blunkett, Ron Davies.

 

Yes, Ken Clarke stabilised the economy a Brown acted on the Tory spending policies for the first two years of the Labour Government rather than immediately steering his own course. He took stick from frustrated Labour MPs but his strategy proved right in the end. I am old enough to remember the periods of stop-go, boom and bust, recessions, high interest rates, high inflation and all the rest over most of my lifetime through the 60's, 70's 80's and first half of the nineties.

 

In 1997 Ken Clarke (to a large extent the man who deserves the credit for our long sustained period of growth) when faced with electoral meltdown he delivered a broadly neutral budget. He resisted the temptation to save Tory seats by a giveaway budget. He wasn't the man to abolish tax relief on pension funds and penalise hard working people of Britain with escalating taxes. He wasn't the man that encouraged people to borrow more and more to sustain a spending spree that inflated property prices. Brown has mortgaged the future of this country to pay for today and make himself look good and for that he deserves our utter contempt. He's now been found out - he really is the worst chancellor we've ever had.

 

I remember well Black Wednesday and interest rates at 15%.

 

This was caused by entering the ERM. What was Labour's policy at the time? - to take us quicker and deeper into Europe! Only Maggie Thatcher and a group or right and left wing 'barstewards' were sceptical about Europe and it cost her her job. Real interest rates are what count. Remember much of the time the Conservative governments were dealing with inflation well above the current OFFICIAL RATE Pay settlements were also much higher.

 

 

Successive Tory Chancellors buying votes at General Elections by making tax cuts when our basic services were falling to bits around our necks. I remember well Tory Governments' manipulation of interest rates to suit their political ends without a second thought for not just the millions of unemployed, but for the resulting under-class who had no chance of learning a skill or indeed of gaining meaningful employment. We are now reaping the harvest of that neglect in the form major social problems in our society.

 

Gordon Brown's first act as Chancellor was to hand over decision making on interest rates to The Bank of England thus removing control from the hands of manipulative politicians.

 

Only because he wanted to pass the buck to someone else if something goes wrong! And guess what he's been picking up the phone to Mervyn King and begging him to lower interest rates etc.

 

We may well be paying more tax than ever before, although I am not sure that that is the case.

 

Do you live in a cave?

 

It is hardly surprising that our taxation is high given the investment required in railways, the NHS, schools, etc after 20 years of utter neglect and under investment by the Tories.

 

The only government to cut the NHS was Labour in 1978 - I wrote to David Owen about it.

 

We have achieved the longest sustained period of economic growth in living memory under the stewardship of Gordon Brown. Make no mistake, had the Tories been in power they would have squandered the benefits in tax cuts which would have compound the already derelict state of the strategic infrastructure of the country.

 

Instead we squandered in employing 700000 extra public servants - they're not all doctors, nurses teachers etc.

 

We are moving into difficult and possibly uncharted waters as far as the international economic scene goes. The oil price could easily reach $150 a barrel before the end of the year. World grain and cereal prices are rocketing due to a combination of low supply caused by the effects of global warming and rising demand due to the booming economies of India and China. Global warming itself is going to have a steadily increasing affect on all of our lives. We are going to have to drastically improve our education and training of our workforce in order to raise our game in terms of ?added value? in our product out-put in order to compete with not only the emerging economies of the Far East but those of Eastern Europe who are catching up fast. We are seeing more and more low tech jobs moving East. We need to drastically increase our investment in R & D at our Universities in order to develop products that keep us ahead of the competition. If we fail to do this our economy will not be able to sustain the standard of living we have come to expect.

 

Remember it was Brown who took 27 billion in mobile phone licences off the phone companies. What happened next - Motorola closed Bathgate down. Were these low tech jobs?

 

Gordon Brown is aware of this and has frequently banged on about it but nobody listens. 'It's all too boring - not flash enough'. Don?t hold your breath to hear any of this from Mr Cameron. The types in his 'real' constituency would not understand or care a fig for any of that.

 

I know who I would rather have at the tiller in a storm and it?s not the ?Boy David?.

 

Gordon Brown has taken and will carry on taking the tough decisions required to lay the foundations for the future. Unfortunately this country has still a long way to go on that road and he may not have time to see it through.

 

Added - The tough decisions were taken by the only really radical government post 1948 - Margaret Thatcher's first two administrations 79-87. Brown was bequeathed a fabulous economy - funny how he always bleats on about ten years of growth when it was 15.