jack D and coke Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 5 minutes ago, That thing you do said: Its been reported in recent years as a plan to deal with increasing drought conditions in England. Whether it actually happens is debateable but it shows how easily the solution to Englands issues in the thought process is Scottish resources. As far back as the 90s West of Scotland water as it was then admitted to being in talks to build it. Its been on the agenda for a long time. They’ve built the pipelines taking the energy straight from Peterhead to Yorkshire too. You can see how many millions of homes and businesses are powered from Scotland daily on a website, forget what it’s called now but it’s millions. We’re a burden though😐 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 14 minutes ago, That thing you do said: Its been reported in recent years as a plan to deal with increasing drought conditions in England. Whether it actually happens is debateable but it shows how easily the solution to Englands issues in the thought process is Scottish resources. It won't happen, finances and logistics are prohibitive. East Anglia is the driest part of the UK, it has a growing population but Anglia Water is bringing water via pipes from Lincolnshire where it's much wetter, why do you think they're bringing it from 150 miles away and not from say, Loch Ness 550 miles away? Honestly, it's a pipe dream (pardon the pun) to think financially driven companies will spend the extra millions/billions bringing water from hundreds of miles away rather than create storage closer at hand, having lived in the North West of England for 20 years, I can honestly assure you that's there's absolutely no shortage of water in England. https://www.anglianwater.co.uk/about-us/our-strategies-and-plans/new-water-pipelines/#:~:text=We're creating a new,from North Lincolnshire to Essex. https://www.unitedutilities.com/corporate/responsibility/stakeholders/the-haweswater-aqueduct-resilience-programme/ Edited January 17 by Dawnrazor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 10 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: They’ve built the pipelines taking the energy straight from Peterhead to Yorkshire too. You can see how many millions of homes and businesses are powered from Scotland daily on a website, forget what it’s called now but it’s millions. We’re a burden though😐 Those pipes were put in the ground in the 1970s. I remember going through some on my Motocross when I was a wee Jambo🤔 . Saying that, there has been pipelines layed from Grangemouth in a southern direction since then, don't know where to though 🧐 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 minutes ago, henrysmithsgloves said: Those pipes were put in the ground in the 1970s. I remember going through some on my Motocross when I was a wee Jambo🤔 . Saying that, there has been pipelines layed from Grangemouth in a southern direction since then, don't know where to though 🧐 They weren’t they were only piped over recent years and turned on last year. I can’t find the news article but they absolutely were not laid in the 70’s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 50 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Decades of austerity Ate we not already in Austere times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 23 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: They’ve built the pipelines taking the energy straight from Peterhead to Yorkshire too. You can see how many millions of homes and businesses are powered from Scotland daily on a website, forget what it’s called now but it’s millions. We’re a burden though😐 We pay for it back the way. At a dearer price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: They weren’t they were only piped over recent years and turned on last year. I can’t find the news article but they absolutely were not laid in the 70’s Anything to do with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 39 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: Where is this information coming from? There's pipes being built right now to take water from different parts of England to drier parts but I'm not aware of water coming from Scotland. You've only to have watched the news recently to have seen the flooding parts of the South of England have had, there's areas flooded in England every year, I've said often before, England doesn't have a water shortage, it's has a water storage shortage and that's far cheaper to sort by bringing water from England to England, as has and is happening, than bringing it from Scotland. I looked couldn't find anything. But what I did find is Loch Ness holds more water than England and Wales combined. There's 31,000 lochs in Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: Anything to do with this? You what bud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanks Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 58 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: So true . What’s wrong with being proud to being British ? And Scottish ? Being ‘proud’ of where you happen to be born is serious cringe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Just now, jack D and coke said: You what bud? ****, sorry, never put the link in🤦♂️ https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/12/subsea-eastern-green-link-1-project-renewable-power-scotland-england-clean-electricity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glamorgan Jambo Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 25 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: It won't happen, finances and logistics are prohibitive. East Anglia is the driest part of the UK, it has a growing population but Anglia Water is bringing water via pipes from Lincolnshire where it's much wetter, why do you think they're bringing it from 150 miles away and not from say, Loch Ness 550 miles away? Honestly, it's a pipe dream (pardon the pun) to think financially driven companies will spend the extra millions/billions bringing water from hundreds of miles away rather than create storage closer at hand, having lived in the North West of England for 20 years, I can honestly assure you that's there's absolutely no shortage of water in England. https://www.anglianwater.co.uk/about-us/our-strategies-and-plans/new-water-pipelines/#:~:text=We're creating a new,from North Lincolnshire to Essex. https://www.unitedutilities.com/corporate/responsibility/stakeholders/the-haweswater-aqueduct-resilience-programme/ I don't know about Scotland but England (especially the North West and West Midlands) gets a lot of its water from Wales. And almost 60 years since an inhabited valley in Eryri/Snowdonia was flooded to build a reservoir for Liverpool it is still very emotive and hugely controversial. The distances covered aren't several hundred miles but they're certainly over 100 (probably around 150). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 minutes ago, Ked said: I looked couldn't find anything. But what I did find is Loch Ness holds more water than England and Wales combined. There's 31,000 lochs in Scotland. That's common knowledge to be fair, I used Loch Ness as it's a huge body of water, but the point was why is Anglia Water paying to pipe water from a quarter of the distance to the driest area of England and not from Loch Ness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, Glamorgan Jambo said: I don't know about Scotland but England (especially the North West and West Midlands) gets a lot of its water from Wales. And almost 60 years since an inhabited valley in Eryri/Snowdonia was flooded to build a reservoir for Liverpool it is still very emotive and hugely controversial. The distances covered aren't several hundred miles but they're certainly over 100 (probably around 150). Yes, but it made financial sense then, as it does now, to bring water to Birmingham from Wales and not Scotland, to Manchester from Cumbria and not Scotland and to East Anglia from Lincolnshire and nt Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 13 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: ****, sorry, never put the link in🤦♂️ https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/12/subsea-eastern-green-link-1-project-renewable-power-scotland-england-clean-electricity Not totally sure but don’t think so bud. This one has been built and turned on already. It’s also from renewables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 The debate's always about the future under independence, but what future have we got in this union? Things aren't getting better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Main points. UK general government gross debt was £2,636.9 billion at the end of Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2023, equivalent to 101.2% of gross domestic product (GDP). UK general government deficit (or net borrowing) was £63.5 billion in Quarter 2 2023, equivalent to 9.5% of GDP.27 Oct 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glamorgan Jambo Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 49 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: Yes, but it made financial sense then, as it does now, to bring water to Birmingham from Wales and not Scotland, to Manchester from Cumbria and not Scotland and to East Anglia from Lincolnshire and nt Scotland. You missed out Merseyside from Snowdonia for some reason. Extraction and removal of natural resources from Wales (especially North Wales) is still very much a live topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 On 16/01/2024 at 15:01, JudyJudyJudy said: They really are ripping the pish https://x.com/scotexpress/status/1747235444461363555?s=46&t=Uyg6zS_aUfEwlXY6vOoxzQ Maybe he needs to help out with family legal bills? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Just now, Glamorgan Jambo said: You missed out Merseyside from Snowdonia for some reason. Extraction and removal of natural resources from Wales (especially North Wales) is still very much a live topic. I can understand why water was brought from Wales to the West of England, rain fall a hight being the obvious ones, lots of water high up in Wales could keep areas in England during the Industrial revolution and after with the population growth. I think the thinking was "British" much more then too? But you can see the trend regards Scotland, water comes from relatively close and not from the extra hundreds of miles bringing it from Scotland. Reservoirs, improving current infrastructure or desalination are all much more viable options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Ked said: Ate we not already in Austere times? Its always been austere times in some way or another. Nothing new. 1 hour ago, Shanks said: Being ‘proud’ of where you happen to be born is serious cringe. Who said i was " proud"? Nothing wrong with being proud of your percieved nationality. After all the Scots Nats never stop talking about being " proud" of being a Scot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 7 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said: Maybe he needs to help out with family legal bills? Come on its " free " munney scotland. he will be getting legal aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said: That's common knowledge to be fair, I used Loch Ness as it's a huge body of water, but the point was why is Anglia Water paying to pipe water from a quarter of the distance to the driest area of England and not from Loch Ness? Was just mentioning it. Cost I'd say . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 minutes ago, Ked said: Was just mentioning it. Cost I'd say . I wasn't trying to be arsey👍 Cost top to bottom, I do work for a couple of water companies, the Hawswater project runs directly below my house, speaking to the high hied yins involved about the cost and it's unbelievable the money going into it, the politics, the logistics and the time going into getting the new pipe the 72 miles is staggering, now imagine adding another 450 miles when there's no shortage of water in England!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 26 minutes ago, Ked said: Was just mentioning it. Cost I'd say . https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2022/06/22/contract-race-starts-as-cost-of-giant-aqueduct-job-hits-1-75bn/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 22 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: I wasn't trying to be arsey👍 Cost top to bottom, I do work for a couple of water companies, the Hawswater project runs directly below my house, speaking to the high hied yins involved about the cost and it's unbelievable the money going into it, the politics, the logistics and the time going into getting the new pipe the 72 miles is staggering, now imagine adding another 450 miles when there's no shortage of water in England!!! I know you were not buddy. I agree with you about no plans and cost. England's water supply in certain areas is already at a strain. The forecasts are for East England to be short 800 million litres not sure whether that was annually or less . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Per day @Dawnrazor. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-67694328.amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 3 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 18 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2022/06/22/contract-race-starts-as-cost-of-giant-aqueduct-job-hits-1-75bn/ 1.7 for 72 miles. So 10 billion for 450 miles. Probably more . You never know. 1p per litre . 800 million litres a day. 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, jack D and coke said: They weren’t they were only piped over recent years and turned on last year. I can’t find the news article but they absolutely were not laid in the 70’s 1977-1978. It went through our land. There is definitely later pipes from grangemouth though 😝 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRiver Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, That thing you do said: The pipeline has to be built, but they are planning it due to the increased droughts caused by Global warming. My life is that pish right now I want everyone to suffer in the mid to long term chasing a potential that might never be realised" response? Nope "OUR lives are pish right now caused by the greed, corruption and waste at Westminster and I have the belief that Scotland and its people can make Scotland better than Westminster on our behalf". Pick it part all you like but its what it comes down to. Which other countires around the world are joining a union and allowing their partner to spend 60% of their cash for them? None. If it worked, the UK would be replicated in the economic interest of other nations. It isnt, because it doesnt. Who is this "Our" of whom you speak? You don't live here and I'm not struggling. Plenty of Scots do quite well out the union. A majority that live here wanted to retain if last time we were asked. All you have is a belief. You need to have a lot more than that and a snidey attitude towards those that have no real issues with the union to convince more of us. Instead of talk of "Rangers arguments" and "I'm all right jack" positions. But aye, I'm going to throw my life away on a hope and a prayer that it might improve. We hold all the cards in negotiations blah blah blah. I mind another bunch of clowns that got their arses felt thinking the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, jack D and coke said: Not totally sure but don’t think so bud. This one has been built and turned on already. It’s also from renewables. 2 hours ago, jack D and coke said: They weren’t they were only piped over recent years and turned on last year. I can’t find the news article but they absolutely were not laid in the 70’s Is this it? https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1989-10-31/debates/c599c573-e00c-4765-a586-00ddca5a177c/Pipeline(Grangemouth). Was all I could find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 10 minutes ago, BlueRiver said: Who is this "Our" of whom you speak? You don't live here and I'm not struggling. Plenty of Scots do quite well out the union. A majority that live here wanted to retain if last time we were asked. All you have is a belief. You need to have a lot more than that and a snidey attitude towards those that have no real issues with the union to convince more of us. Instead of talk of "Rangers arguments" and "I'm all right jack" positions. But aye, I'm going to throw my life away on a hope and a prayer that it might improve. We hold all the cards in negotiations blah blah blah. I mind another bunch of clowns that got their arses felt thinking the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 5 minutes ago, Ked said: Is this it? https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1989-10-31/debates/c599c573-e00c-4765-a586-00ddca5a177c/Pipeline(Grangemouth). Was all I could find. It was from a Yorkshire newspaper. Was just last year. I can’t find it either now though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 26 minutes ago, Ked said: Per day @Dawnrazor. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-67694328.amp Yep, that's why Anglian Water are acting and bringing water to the dry East Anglia frim the wetter Lincolnshire, not from Scotland, and why are they doing that and not bringing it from Scotland?!! The South of England does have to sort storage out there's no argument about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 25 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said: 😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 15 minutes ago, BlueRiver said: Who is this "Our" of whom you speak? You don't live here and I'm not struggling. Plenty of Scots do quite well out the union. A majority that live here wanted to retain if last time we were asked. All you have is a belief. You need to have a lot more than that and a snidey attitude towards those that have no real issues with the union to convince more of us. Instead of talk of "Rangers arguments" and "I'm all right jack" positions. But aye, I'm going to throw my life away on a hope and a prayer that it might improve. We hold all the cards in negotiations blah blah blah. I mind another bunch of clowns that got their arses felt thinking the same way. Good posting . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 34 minutes ago, Ked said: I know you were not buddy. I agree with you about no plans and cost. England's water supply in certain areas is already at a strain. The forecasts are for East England to be short 800 million litres not sure whether that was annually or less . Grafham Water was built in 1965, Rutland Water in 1975, England hasn't built a reservoir since 1992, again, water was stored in England for use in England and not piped from Scotland. England will have to build more reservoirs and sort infrastructure but that still doesn't take away from the fact that there's no shortage of water in England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That thing you do Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 27 minutes ago, BlueRiver said: Who is this "Our" of whom you speak? You don't live here and I'm not struggling. Plenty of Scots do quite well out the union. A majority that live here wanted to retain if last time we were asked. All you have is a belief. You need to have a lot more than that and a snidey attitude towards those that have no real issues with the union to convince more of us. Instead of talk of "Rangers arguments" and "I'm all right jack" positions. But aye, I'm going to throw my life away on a hope and a prayer that it might improve. We hold all the cards in negotiations blah blah blah. I mind another bunch of clowns that got their arses felt thinking the same way. Its not belief Theres two places, lets call them Scotland and Norway. Scotland is part of a unon that many people think makes it economically stronger. Scotland pools and shares and gives 60% of all it generates to its partner England. Norway is an independent country that has close ties to Europe. They both discover oil Norway, in charge of its affairs uses the money it gains to create a soverign wealth fund to support the country the day it runs out Scotland defers responsibility to its partner, England. England uses the money to bail out the supposed stronger union (which was a basket case before oil saved it) and leaves none of it for a rainy day (either on a UK scale or for Scotland). Scotland gets poorer, or no richer at best Norway gets very rich Whether you consider oil discovery British or Scottish doesnt alter the fact the windfall is spent. Your job as a unionist, is to argue that Scotlands position aided by England is better than Norways. Norway also only pays for infrastructure in Norway. Scotland has funded 8% of crossrail, the elizabeth line, HS2, the channel tunnel, Iraq war (and many others) all of which have no or negligible benefit to Scotland. You as a unionist have to argue this makes more sense than prioritising your own infrastructure. Some scots do "quite well" - Norwiegans, Qataris, Emiratis have all done collectively bloody well with less oil reserves than Scotland. You also have to argue that aspiring to some people doing quite well is a better argument than trying to change things for all. I dont live in Scotland - true, for that to matter, you have to argue that the job prospects in Scotland in my field were such that it was unreasonable for me to seek employment overseas - otherwise thats a moot point. You also have to answer why no other country has suggested joining another to form a UK like Union - Im simply arguing that the Union is an outlier not the norm. None of my position is based on belief its based on studying economics, looking at the data and seeing other similar sized countries to Scotland performing better than Scotland in the Union. Staying in the Union is about belief. Belief that while we do ok now the fear of doing worse means keep what you have. Thats irrational in the face of all the data that says Scotland will do very well. Like Brexit and football, independence has become tribal. People wont listen to evidence that disproves their position, its why you get 3 generations of families voting labour despite them doing nothing whatsoever for Scotland. Im open to any unionist proving to me, Scotland would be uniquely capable of running its affairs. But I havent heard it. All Ive heard is "I do ok" and "its too risky" and "the UK is fine" (ie the Rangers and Im ok jack positions) Edited January 17 by That thing you do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 5 hours ago, il Duce McTarkin said: They were amusing memes though, you have to admit, no? I'm generally quite amused at the prospect of arsehole politicians being ripped for being winkers. I tend to find it more amusing when it's generated in that spirit though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundermann Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 8 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said: 40% of our whisky is owned by Diagio of London, and 20% is owned by Pernod Ricard of France, Bacardi own 6%, Suntory of Japan 3%, 1% American, Moet/Louis Vuitton .5% Pretty much in total 75% are NOT Scottish owned, we wont see the profits from this under Indy So, it doesn't count as UK exports then and doesn't benefit the UK economy? If it does, imagine how it would benefit wee Scotland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 17 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said: I'm generally quite amused at the prospect of arsehole politicians being ripped for being winkers. I tend to find it more amusing when it's generated in that spirit though. Well I can assure you that it's posted in good spirit. The stuff his brother in law was caught punting wasn't even white, ffs. 😉 Edited January 17 by il Duce McTarkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 7 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said: Well I can assure you that it's posted in good spirit. The stuff his brother in law was caught punting wasn't even white, ffs. 😉 Never have any doubts about your intentions, Il Duce 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boof Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, That thing you do said: Its not belief Theres two places, lets call them Scotland and Norway. Scotland is part of a unon that many people think makes it economically stronger. Scotland pools and shares and gives 60% of all it generates to its partner England. Norway is an independent country that has close ties to Europe. They both discover oil Norway, in charge of its affairs uses the money it gains to create a soverign wealth fund to support the country the day it runs out Scotland defers responsibility to its partner, England. England uses the money to bail out the supposed stronger union (which was a basket case before oil saved it) and leaves none of it for a rainy day (either on a UK scale or for Scotland). Scotland gets poorer, or no richer at best Norway gets very rich Whether you consider oil discovery British or Scottish doesnt alter the fact the windfall is spent. Your job as a unionist, is to argue that Scotlands position aided by England is better than Norways. Norway also only pays for infrastructure in Norway. Scotland has funded 8% of crossrail, the elizabeth line, HS2, the channel tunnel, Iraq war (and many others) all of which have no or negligible benefit to Scotland. You as a unionist have to argue this makes more sense than prioritising your own infrastructure. Some scots do "quite well" - Norwiegans, Qataris, Emiratis have all done collectively bloody well with less oil reserves than Scotland. You also have to argue that aspiring to some people doing quite well is a better argument than trying to change things for all. I dont live in Scotland - true, for that to matter, you have to argue that the job prospects in Scotland in my field were such that it was unreasonable for me to seek employment overseas - otherwise thats a moot point. You also have to answer why no other country has suggested joining another to form a UK like Union - Im simply arguing that the Union is an outlier not the norm. None of my position is based on belief its based on studying economics, looking at the data and seeing other similar sized countries to Scotland performing better than Scotland in the Union. Staying in the Union is about belief. Belief that while we do ok now the fear of doing worse means keep what you have. Thats irrational in the face of all the data that says Scotland will do very well. Like Brexit and football, independence has become tribal. People wont listen to evidence that disproves their position, its why you get 3 generations of families voting labour despite them doing nothing whatsoever for Scotland. Im open to any unionist proving to me, Scotland would be uniquely capable of running its affairs. But I havent heard it. All Ive heard is "I do ok" and "its too risky" and "the UK is fine" (ie the Rangers and Im ok jack positions) again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRiver Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 3 hours ago, That thing you do said: Its not belief Theres two places, lets call them Scotland and Norway. Scotland is part of a unon that many people think makes it economically stronger. Scotland pools and shares and gives 60% of all it generates to its partner England. Norway is an independent country that has close ties to Europe. They both discover oil Norway, in charge of its affairs uses the money it gains to create a soverign wealth fund to support the country the day it runs out Scotland defers responsibility to its partner, England. England uses the money to bail out the supposed stronger union (which was a basket case before oil saved it) and leaves none of it for a rainy day (either on a UK scale or for Scotland). Scotland gets poorer, or no richer at best Norway gets very rich Whether you consider oil discovery British or Scottish doesnt alter the fact the windfall is spent. Your job as a unionist, is to argue that Scotlands position aided by England is better than Norways. Norway also only pays for infrastructure in Norway. Scotland has funded 8% of crossrail, the elizabeth line, HS2, the channel tunnel, Iraq war (and many others) all of which have no or negligible benefit to Scotland. You as a unionist have to argue this makes more sense than prioritising your own infrastructure. Some scots do "quite well" - Norwiegans, Qataris, Emiratis have all done collectively bloody well with less oil reserves than Scotland. You also have to argue that aspiring to some people doing quite well is a better argument than trying to change things for all. I dont live in Scotland - true, for that to matter, you have to argue that the job prospects in Scotland in my field were such that it was unreasonable for me to seek employment overseas - otherwise thats a moot point. You also have to answer why no other country has suggested joining another to form a UK like Union - Im simply arguing that the Union is an outlier not the norm. None of my position is based on belief its based on studying economics, looking at the data and seeing other similar sized countries to Scotland performing better than Scotland in the Union. Staying in the Union is about belief. Belief that while we do ok now the fear of doing worse means keep what you have. Thats irrational in the face of all the data that says Scotland will do very well. Like Brexit and football, independence has become tribal. People wont listen to evidence that disproves their position, its why you get 3 generations of families voting labour despite them doing nothing whatsoever for Scotland. Im open to any unionist proving to me, Scotland would be uniquely capable of running its affairs. But I havent heard it. All Ive heard is "I do ok" and "its too risky" and "the UK is fine" (ie the Rangers and Im ok jack positions) Very few argue that Scotland would be incapable. Many of us argue that WE (I.e people living and working in Scotland) are unwilling to sacrifice our relatively decent positions for a hope and a prayer that in 50 years we might see results. Can I deem your position the Connery position? Disappeared at the first opportunity to make your own wedge and now pontificate from the sidelines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) Although I do contribute on these threads I’m not sure how it’s even a live topic tbh. There’s no likelihood of a vote anytime in the next probably 5 years and that’s being favourable to the Indy side. It’s all just trolling. Trying to get a rise out each other. Kinda bores me now🤷🏽♂️ Humza is an absolute gift to the union side of things too. The greens also…ffs Lunacy from the snp. They deserve routed. Edited January 18 by jack D and coke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, BlueRiver said: Very few argue that Scotland would be incapable. Many of us argue that WE (I.e people living and working in Scotland) are unwilling to sacrifice our relatively decent positions for a hope and a prayer that in 50 years we might see results. Can I deem your position the Connery position? Disappeared at the first opportunity to make your own wedge and now pontificate from the sidelines? 10 years since the referendum, and Britain's been on the slide, it's undeniable, and it's got years to go. Are we meant to compare how things are now or how they were 10 years ago when the question was asked? Or how about 10 years into the future? I'm sure things will get better with governments that couldn't GAF about Scotland to start with as they get skinter and skinter, more and more right wing and short termist. Where are we going to be in 10 years if we don't escape this union? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That thing you do Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, BlueRiver said: Very few argue that Scotland would be incapable. Many of us argue that WE (I.e people living and working in Scotland) are unwilling to sacrifice our relatively decent positions for a hope and a prayer that in 50 years we might see results. Can I deem your position the Connery position? Disappeared at the first opportunity to make your own wedge and now pontificate from the sidelines? Didnt disappear at first opportunity combination of factors Funny how working overseas upsets so many people. Some of whom likely work offshore either in North Sea, the Gulf or Gulf of Mexico themselves. Unfortunately in IT you dont get 3 weeks on 3 weeks off so away more. But thats the only difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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