Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[JamboX2]

A couple of interesting articles here on what should occur if Scotland does not go independent. Personally I think if Scotland votes 60% against and 40% for there'll have to be further devolution, perhaps along side stronger devolution in Wales and Northern Ireland. But a few articles on how we exercise power, why Labour need embrace the case for further devolution and make it a commitment for the 2016 election to deliver this, by Malcolm Chisolm, one who is really more of the McLeish/Dewar devolutionists rather than the Lamont variety;

 

http://redpaper.net/2012/09/01/who-owns-scotland-the-realities-of-economic-power/

 

http://www.labourhame.com/archives/2218#more-2218

 

I think the thrust of the first is really its not what powers you have but how you use them that counts. The latter being that its daft for Scotland's parliament not to be in control of most of her revenues. Both I agree with.

[jambos are go!]

Completely agree. I think it makes a number of perfectly reasonable points - unlike the laughably close-minded comments (such a closing of ranks, it's almost a cliche) beneath its reproduction in the Scotsman.

 

I was particularly struck by this bit:

 

"If the pound were split between two nations, it could become subject to the same troubles that have afflicted the European currency."

 

What do the economists on here think of that? Any truth in it?

 

That editorial is also the second time in recent days that I've seen the UK referred to as the US' closest ally. I honestly thought that was Israel nowadays; I'd also assumed that American political discourse had largely relegated us to the past, but maybe not.

 

Completely agree. I think it makes a number of perfectly reasonable points - unlike the laughably close-minded comments (such a closing of ranks, it's almost a cliche) beneath its reproduction in the Scotsman.

 

I was particularly struck by this bit:

 

"If the pound were split between two nations, it could become subject to the same troubles that have afflicted the European currency."

 

What do the economists on here think of that? Any truth in it?

 

That editorial is also the second time in recent days that I've seen the UK referred to as the US' closest ally. I honestly thought that was Israel nowadays; I'd also assumed that American political discourse had largely relegated us to the past, but maybe not.

 

You are aware that the Scotsman is pretty pro SNP in the main despite the Cybernats attacks on anything less than totally supportive ?

[jambos are go!]

What an extraordinary interpretation of the editorial. I can see nothing whatsoever in it that refers to "SNP small-mindedness" or "lack of clarity". In fact it's a fairly objective piece, as you might expect. Perhaps you can point out the parts where the editorial is "withering" about the SNP?

 

You are entitled to your own interpretation ns I mine However, the following para to my mind demonstrates both my points

 

Mr Salmond?s cheerful assurances that Scotland could quickly join the European Union while retaining the British pound as its currency remain to be tested

 

 

As withering a put down as I ever seen against Ecks credibility and lack of clarity. Can it get any worse than having your assurances described as cheerful. One step up from worthless.

 

I would also point out that his opponents seem and the Media are using the Editorial to embarass him.

[Don Draper]

You are aware that the Scotsman is pretty pro SNP in the main despite the Cybernats attacks on anything less than totally supportive ?

 

Wow. That might be the most astounding statement I've ever read on Kickback. If the Scotsman is "pretty pro SNP in the main", the Scottish national team must surely be odds-on to win Brazil 2014. Open your eyes, man.

[davemclaren]

Wow. That might be the most astounding statement I've ever read on Kickback. If the Scotsman is "pretty pro SNP in the main", the Scottish national team must surely be odds-on to win Brazil 2014. Open your eyes, man.

 

I have to agree.

[jambos are go!]

Wow. That might be the most astounding statement I've ever read on Kickback. If the Scotsman is "pretty pro SNP in the main", the Scottish national team must surely be odds-on to win Brazil 2014. Open your eyes, man.

 

There is none so blind as they say. Whoever is my my enemies enemy is my friend as they also say. And the Scotsman and the SNP are both enemies of the Labour Party. BTW the other Cybernat target Newsnight Scotland is mockingly called NewsNat Scotland by Unionist Parties.

[leginten]

 

 

You are entitled to your own interpretation ns I mine However, the following para to my mind demonstrates both my points

 

Mr Salmond?s cheerful assurances that Scotland could quickly join the European Union while retaining the British pound as its currency remain to be tested

 

 

As withering a put down as I ever seen against Ecks credibility and lack of clarity. Can it get any worse than having your assurances described as cheerful. One step up from worthless.

 

I would also point out that his opponents seem and the Media are using the Editorial to embarass him.

 

Is that really the best you can come up with to back up your assertion that the editorial was "withering" about "SNP small-mindedness"? Astounding.

 

But not quite as astounding as your claim that the Scotsman - a newspaper which to all intents and purposes appears in the last few years to have based its political "reporting" on briefings from Labour Party apparatchiks - is pro-SNP in the main.

Edited November 2, 2012 by leginten

[Ulysses]

Can we get back to the topic, thanks?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The one 'get-out' of sharing the same currency is the fact there is a shared language, which naturally increases the ability of labour to move where the economic growth is greatest in the shared currency. Ireland 'exported' its unemployment to England in this way in the 1950's and 1960's.

[davemclaren]

The one 'get-out' of sharing the same currency is the fact there is a shared language, which naturally increases the ability of labour to move where the economic growth is greatest in the shared currency. Ireland 'exported' its unemployment to England in this way in the 1950's and 1960's.

 

Good point. Perhaps the North East can export its labour to Scotland on that basis.

[southside1874]

Here is a link to the withering Editorial in the Washington Post about SNP smallmindedness and lack of clarity. Plus the threat it poses beyond in and beyond these Isles.

 

http://www.scotsman....dence-1-2608978

 

This an independent view from one of the worlds greatest newspapers.

 

Without reading this article by the Washington Post I'll pass comment.

 

Scotland becoming Independent will have a huge impact on the UK economy and the value of our currency. The current UK currency is closely linked to the US dollar. The whole strength of the US dollar and the pound is based on foreign investment and the demand for that currency. The US have the world using the dollar as the international exchange currency for trading goods and therefore create a demand for that currency. The UK are friends with this economic powerhouse and tie their currency into a similar principle. The fragile monitoring of this economy sees the impact of an independent Scotland having a huge effect on the control and value of the pound. It doesn't really endear itself to the US and the UK. The impact of Scotland gaining independence may see the change in the international currency and the fall of the great dollar. We probably won't have many friends in the US while we chase our dream because the impact on this event will see folk losing millions.

Why would the yanks endorse Scottish Independence?

[Coco]

The one 'get-out' of sharing the same currency is the fact there is a shared language, which naturally increases the ability of labour to move where the economic growth is greatest in the shared currency. Ireland 'exported' its unemployment to England in this way in the 1950's and 1960's.

 

The current sterling zone is of course far closer to an optimum currency area than either of the Eurozone or the proposed Sterling-dependency zone!

[Coco]

Without reading this article by the Washington Post I'll pass comment.

 

Scotland becoming Independent will have a huge impact on the UK economy and the value of our currency. The current UK currency is closely linked to the US dollar. The whole strength of the US dollar and the pound is based on foreign investment and the demand for that currency. The US have the world using the dollar as the international exchange currency for trading goods and therefore create a demand for that currency. The UK are friends with this economic powerhouse and tie their currency into a similar principle. The fragile monitoring of this economy sees the impact of an independent Scotland having a huge effect on the control and value of the pound. It doesn't really endear itself to the US and the UK. The impact of Scotland gaining independence may see the change in the international currency and the fall of the great dollar. We probably won't have many friends in the US while we chase our dream because the impact on this event will see folk losing millions.

Why would the yanks endorse Scottish Independence?

 

 

Scotland tying itself to the rump UK sterling is going to bring down the US dollar?!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

 

Scotland tying itself to the rump UK sterling is going to bring down the US dollar?!

Indeed. Another Southside classic.

[davemclaren]

Personally I think any independent Scotland should have its own currency. Sticking with Sterling is a fudge too far for me.

[jambos are go!]

Personally I think any independent Scotland should have its own currency. Sticking with Sterling is a fudge too far for me.

I admire your committment to true Independence even though I disagree with it. But surely a Scots Currrency would mean no entry to the EU? Maybe not.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I admire your committment to true Independence even though I disagree with it. But surely a Scots Currrency would mean no entry to the EU? Maybe not.

 

Not the case, initially. To join the single currency, you need to meet the convergence criteria, which of course no one meets at the minute!

 

The sooner this currency union is destroyed, the better.

[southside1874]

[

 

 

Scotland tying itself to the rump UK sterling is going to bring down the US dollar?!

 

Laugh all you want and as pissed as I was I'll still stand by that statement. You obviously don't understand how fragile the pound and dollar are. Do you really think other countries like this imposed international currency? Does it irk them when they just print more money to solve their economic crisis? If it's such a small thing, Scotland gaining Independence then why are so many folk sticking their oars in?

 

I'm still trying to find the bit I mentioned tying itself to the UK sterling but bash on.

Edited November 3, 2012 by southside1874

[Ulysses]

But surely a Scots Currrency would mean no entry to the EU? Maybe not.

 

It would - if Scotland were outside the EU. But it isn't, and the EU institutions would be in an untenable legal position if they were to attempt to exclude existing EU Member State citizens from membership.

[Coco]

[

 

 

 

Laugh all you want and as pissed as I was I'll still stand by that statement. You obviously don't understand how fragile the pound and dollar are. Do you really think other countries like this imposed international currency? Does it irk them when they just print more money to solve their economic crisis? If it's such a small thing, Scotland gaining Independence then why are so many folk sticking their oars in?

 

I'm still trying to find the bit I mentioned tying itself to the UK sterling but bash on.

 

All that is on offer is Scotland continuing as a dependent within a new Sterling zone. Either that or the Euro.

 

I know how fragile both the pound and the dollar are. Whatever happens to Scotland will have close to nil impact on both of them.

[southside1874]

All that is on offer is Scotland continuing as a dependent within a new Sterling zone. Either that or the Euro.

 

I know how fragile both the pound and the dollar are. Whatever happens to Scotland will have close to nil impact on both of them.

 

Initially we would have to use our existing currency but that is not to say that will always be the case. I fail to see how Scotland leaving the UK will have little impact on the pound. My opinion is that Englands whole economy is dependant on foreign investment achieved by keeping inflation low. To keep inflation low they cannot invest heavily in their own country and population. Most of the foreign investment goes to London and the South East and to balance this they must create poverty in other areas. Scotland on the other hand really needs to invest in infrastructure. We can balance this with our exports to low population ratio. To appreciate how fragile the US and UK currency is you only have to think what they did to Iraq because Saddam said they should use the Euro for trading oil and Gadaffi said they should use gold. I haven't done a lot of research into this but look what has happened to the price of gold and look at what has happened to the Euro since then.

Scotland would have an economy very like Norway and the Norwegians have the highest standard of living in the world.

[Radio Ga Ga]

There is absolutely no chance that we will vote for Independence, Salmond knows this but has no option but to have the vote as the SNP have always promised their supporters the chance of referendum at the first opportunity.

 

IMO, this referendum is not only a waste of time but a waste of money at a time the country can least afford it.

 

If there was a spread betting market, the odds makers would start at around 33 points for Independence 67 against.

[Radge21]

How close are the Nats to their 1 million signatures that they promised.

It has gone very quiet.

More fans at easter road today than attended the last independence day rally in Edinburgh.

Same amount of fans were at Dens park against the Jambos.

And as said above why are the IRA and James Connolly brigades supporting the SNP.

The best wee bigotted country in the world under Salmond.

#bettertogether

[dobmisterdobster]

And as said above why are the IRA and James Connolly brigades supporting the SNP.

There is bigotry on both sides.

Why do the SDL, BNP and Orange Order support the Better Together campaign?

[Coco]

Initially we would have to use our existing currency but that is not to say that will always be the case. I fail to see how Scotland leaving the UK will have little impact on the pound. My opinion is that Englands whole economy is dependant on foreign investment achieved by keeping inflation low. To keep inflation low they cannot invest heavily in their own country and population. Most of the foreign investment goes to London and the South East and to balance this they must create poverty in other areas. Scotland on the other hand really needs to invest in infrastructure. We can balance this with our exports to low population ratio. To appreciate how fragile the US and UK currency is you only have to think what they did to Iraq because Saddam said they should use the Euro for trading oil and Gadaffi said they should use gold. I haven't done a lot of research into this but look what has happened to the price of gold and look at what has happened to the Euro since then.

Scotland would have an economy very like Norway and the Norwegians have the highest standard of living in the world.

 

Certainly is an interesting new form of economics. You should write a book!

[kingantti1874]

 

There is bigotry on both sides.

Why do the SDL, BNP and Orange Order support the Better Together campaign?

 

Scotland's bigots, and lets not pretend they are a minority , west of Bathgate it's very much ingrained in society-is one of the reasons independence scares me...

 

Those ****wits wouldn't be happy until they turned the west of Scotland into a clone of NI

[jambos are go!]

Here is a link to an Article in the SOS about Gordon Brown saying that the SNP policy of remaining in the Sterling zone would reduce us to being a colony of the UK.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/scottish-independence-snp-plan-makes-scotland-a-colony-claims-gordon-brown-1-2613246

[southside1874]

Scotland's bigots, and lets not pretend they are a minority , west of Bathgate it's very much ingrained in society-is one of the reasons independence scares me...

 

Those ****wits wouldn't be happy until they turned the west of Scotland into a clone of NI

 

It's certainly one of my concerns. I'm not sure if its a clone of NI just now though and if not quite there it's certainly heading in that direction.

[southside1874]

Here is a link to an Article in the SOS about Gordon Brown saying that the SNP policy of remaining in the Sterling zone would reduce us to being a colony of the UK.

 

http://www.scotsman....brown-1-2613246

 

It certainly would. We could also start our own currency if we had to.

[number-16]

 

 

Scotland's bigots, and lets not pretend they are a minority , west of Bathgate it's very much ingrained in society-is one of the reasons independence scares me...

 

Those ****wits wouldn't be happy until they turned the west of Scotland into a clone of NI

 

I agree to a certain extent. When I was young I associated the Union flag more with bigotry and Rangers than as a national flag.

 

I like to think if you take away the Union it takes us out of this nonsense and we can move past it and get on with being a normal society.

[southside1874]

I agree to a certain extent. When I was young I associated the Union flag more with bigotry and Rangers than as a national flag.

 

I like to think if you take away the Union it takes us out of this nonsense and we can move past it and get on with being a normal society.

 

It will take a couple of generations but it's surely a move in the right direction.

[southside1874]

Certainly is an interesting new form of economics. You should write a book!

 

I'll call it "thinking out the box"

[JamboX2]

 

 

I agree to a certain extent. When I was young I associated the Union flag more with bigotry and Rangers than as a national flag.

 

I like to think if you take away the Union it takes us out of this nonsense and we can move past it and get on with being a normal society.

 

The Union is not the cause of sectarianism, nor is it sustaining it. Narrow minded fools who teach their kids (on either side) that differentiation because of nationality and faith that sustain it. Inaction from the authorities is also an issue. The political power of the catholic church and the kirk allows for politicians to maintain faith schools in the state sector when they're simply a form of segregation in education.

 

Bringing communities together, a drive to eradicate poverty and education will kill sectarianism in a generation or 2. The Union is not an issue which will affect that.

[southside1874]

The Union is not the cause of sectarianism, nor is it sustaining it. Narrow minded fools who teach their kids (on either side) that differentiation because of nationality and faith that sustain it. Inaction from the authorities is also an issue. The political power of the catholic church and the kirk allows for politicians to maintain faith schools in the state sector when they're simply a form of segregation in education.

 

Bringing communities together, a drive to eradicate poverty and education will kill sectarianism in a generation or 2. The Union is not an issue which will affect that.

 

Seriously mate. Do you not see the power of religion being used to divide and conquer a nation? Do you not see the relevance of Northern Ireland and Scotland and the same religious divide to control the population?

[jambos are go!]

Seriously mate. Do you not see the power of religion being used to divide and conquer a nation? Do you not see the relevance of Northern Ireland and Scotland and the same religious divide to control the population?

Religion is in retreat all across Scotland and in NI we have a power sharing executive. In Scotland folks are choosing the best school for their kids based on locality or worth rather than denomination. Not all but a growing number.

 

I have always believed that our connection to the much more secular and liberal approach to Religion in England and Wales has been a damper on religious bigotry in Scotland. IMO.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Seriously mate. Do you not see the power of religion being used to divide and conquer a nation? Do you not see the relevance of Northern Ireland and Scotland and the same religious divide to control the population?

The Irish "religious" issue is far more complex than using religion to divide and conquer. A study of how Presbyterians in Antrim and Down were active participants in the 1798 Rebellion and then some of the staunchest anti Home Rules in 1886 when the first Home Rule bill was in the Commons is ample demonstration of that.

[southside1874]

Religion is in retreat all across Scotland and in NI we have a power sharing executive. In Scotland folks are choosing the best school for their kids based on locality or worth rather than denomination. Not all but a growing number.

 

I have always believed that our connection to the much more secular and liberal approach to Religion in England and Wales has been a damper on religious bigotry in Scotland. IMO.

 

Yep England and Wales and liberal approach seems to differ from the NI and Scottish approach. Imagine if NI or Scotland had any mineral wealth and you wanted to exploit this wealth? Imagine if Wales and Northern England showed so much resistance? Would they therefore divide these areas by promoting a religious divide?

 

If anyone thats thinks that Scotland should belong to England/the UK then by the same principle they should believe that Ireland should be united. A united Ireland would surely benefit all concerned.

[southside1874]

The Irish "religious" issue is far more complex than using religion to divide and conquer. A study of how Presbyterians in Antrim and Down were active participants in the 1798 Rebellion and then some of the staunchest anti Home Rules in 1886 when the first Home Rule bill was in the Commons is ample demonstration of that.

 

How you can support a divided Ireland and yet think a United Kingdom is worthy of support is baffling. I don't really care how the British Establishment came across their religious nonsense. Did they care whaen muslims and Hindus has to pass each other in India? They don't care how historically the facts came about. They do care how it effects their future.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

How you can support a divided Ireland and yet think a United Kingdom is worthy of support is baffling. I don't really care how the British Establishment came across their religious nonsense. Did they care whaen muslims and Hindus has to pass each other in India? They don't care how historically the facts came about. They do care how it effects their future.

 

Wait, what?

 

The question I posed to you was why do you think Presbyterians wanted a full scale independent Ireland, inspired by the nascent United States, and then within two generations had become staunchly anti Home Rule? The point is while the 1798 rebellion actually did bring together Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter, it translated itself from that ideal into sectarian killing (see, for example, the battle of Vinegar Hill).

[southside1874]

Wait, what?

 

The question I posed to you was why do you think Presbyterians wanted a full scale independent Ireland, inspired by the nascent United States, and then within two generations had become staunchly anti Home Rule? The point is while the 1798 rebellion actually did bring together Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter, it translated itself from that ideal into sectarian killing (see, for example, the battle of Vinegar Hill).

 

Geoff, while I think you are a rather intelligent guy, it makes me wonder why you look to the past for reason. The whole point is looking to the future mate. How we get to Christianity in the first place and how you can ever think that any rebellion brought folk together without there being great hardship is beyond me. It's how we move forward that concerns me. We won't because there is far too many folk filled with fear. I want a nation without fear.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Geoff, while I think you are a rather intelligent guy, it makes me wonder why you look to the past for reason. The whole point is looking to the future mate. How we get to Christianity in the first place and how you can ever think that any rebellion brought folk together without there being great hardship is beyond me. It's how we move forward that concerns me. We won't because there is far too many folk filled with fear. I want a nation without fear.

I am pointing out that drawing parallels between Scotland and Northern Ireland is facile, particularly when that religious "influence" is being influenced by people who have never read history but in fact are espousing myths of myths to other people.

[southside1874]

I am pointing out that drawing parallels between Scotland and Northern Ireland is facile, particularly when that religious "influence" is being influenced by people who have never read history but in fact are espousing myths of myths to other people.

 

And just who espouses these myths mate? And the parallels surely expose why the establishment wanted to keep control over their empire.....at any cost.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

And just who espouses these myths mate? And the parallels surely expose why the establishment wanted to keep control over their empire.....at any cost.

 

These myths are espoused by harder line loyalists and republicans and their only empires are drug empires!

[southside1874]

Why the hell does Australia keep a union flag in its corner? Why can't scotland have this choice?

[southside1874]

These myths are espoused by harder line loyalists and republicans and their only empires are drug empires!

What created this? Drugs? why do you think we went into peking and why do you think we are concerned about Afghanistan? If the UK was so concerned about its drugs problem, do you think it could wipe it out or is it beneficial for them to have some control over the population?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Why the hell does Australia keep a union flag in its corner? Why can't scotland have this choice?

 

It dates back to Federation in 1901 to show the links with Britain.

 

Also, most of the states have similar flags.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

What created this? Drugs? why do you think we went into peking and why do you think we are concerned about Afghanistan? If the UK was so concerned about its drugs problem, do you think it could wipe it out or is it beneficial for them to have some control over the population?

 

Now who is into their history?

 

That's a different debate entirely.

[southside1874]

It dates back to Federation in 1901 to show the links with Britain.

 

Also, most of the states have similar flags.

 

For some reason, Scotland can't be mates with the countries it knows if it wants to go for its own. Has Australia got its own currency? No answer required.

[southside1874]

Now who is into their history?

 

That's a different debate entirely.

 

Drugs are historic.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

For some reason, Scotland can't be mates with the countries it knows if it wants to go for its own. Has Australia got its own currency? No answer required.

Isn't that the point of the referendum?